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How did the ordination of clergy thing work in TWI?


fooledagainII
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Linda Z, I know what you're saying. Yes, some of the people who ran departments at HQ were just stupid, legalistic people. When I left TWI for the field I was so glad to be going away from HQ. It was one cabinent member who's small action during the ROA was straw that broke the camel's back so to speak, and I realized, these "top" leadership could give 2 cents about the "people" they were supposed to be serving.

On the field, the legalism was just as bad. After a dream one night, and musing on it, I was walking down the street of my city, and stopped and just thought, that's it, I'm done, no mas. I felt lighthearted and free from bondage - free at last, after 18 years. I had nothing, but at least the life I built was going to be my own.

I remember the 5th corps ordinations, I too was amazed at some of the people, I'm thinking of a couple of women here, who had no obvious "ministry" and I was astounded they were ordained. But, there was one guy in the 5th corps who was not asked to be ordained, Ant*** P***. He was very angry and really put up a fight to be ordained. He couldn't understand why his corps was asked but he wasn't. I think he did well the next year and got ordained then. He did get ordained.

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... so unless there's a gift ministry of Big Mean DumbA$$, something was wrong somewhere.

That has got to be one of the best lines I've ever heard... I may have to make that my new tag line!!!

I'll never forget the immense relief I felt driving away from there, knowing I was out from under the leagalism and the mandadory meetings and the other BS. It was as if I was breathing fresh air for the first time in a long time...and I'm still breathing!
... I was walking down the street of my city, and stopped and just thought, that's it, I'm done, no mas. I felt lighthearted and free from bondage - free at last, after 18 years. I had nothing, but at least the life I built was going to be my own.

I remember walking out of my house the morning after I had made the decision to leave twi... it was like someone lifted the lid off the box I had been living in and the world suddenly felt big, and open, and full of possibilities. I, too, had to start from nothing but even that felt like more than I had had in years!

Edited by TheHighWay
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I gotta say that I have no memory of an ordination process in twi like Thomas Loy B... described. Perhaps he had a different experience? Maybe that was a different timeframe? Maybe I was just in a different twi?

The process, if that's what we call it, was subject to change, again and again. The criteria changed too, imo.

But what motivated vp in his selection? Did he tack it to deacons, or elders, like the epistles describe? Maybe, but if so, why the variations?

Perhaps there is some student of twi history out there who can map a consistent path, accounting somehow for exceptions.

vp really didn't have to account to us anyway, did he?

Does anybody here remember the very public (... ok, is was a corps week thing; but still...) fiasco that P*ul Verg***o experienced? About his ordination, from the main stage, vp spoke against it: "prove why I should ordain him!" kind of stuff. Comments from the crowd were allowed. vp was antagonistic - at least to my perception. But P*ul took it, a humble guy. and he was ordained. (He is accessible online -I think - selling his music.) What was up with that? was we 'casting lots'?

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Does anybody here remember the very public (... ok, is was a corps week thing; but still...) fiasco that P*ul Verg***o experienced? About his ordination, from the main stage, vp spoke against it: "prove why I should ordain him!" kind of stuff. Comments from the crowd were allowed. vp was antagonistic - at least to my perception. But P*ul took it, a humble guy. and he was ordained. (He is accessible online -I think - selling his music.) What was up with that? was we 'casting lots'?

I don't think VPW had much use for independent projects that weren't generating income for TWI.

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wing, according to some of the early corp in early 70's, Wierwille's early ordinations were similar to his own ordination from the E&R church, but with great flexibility based on his spin of theology. Eventually it was all improvised and would change from year to year. He added the salt covenant and revelation/prophecy on specific gift ministries. No, I never was Corps nor ordinained. Just relating info from others and digging for truth to TWI.

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Thanks Thomas. There are missing pieces to the puzzle, even if you were there to see with your own eyes. Not lots of 'splainin going on then. Lots was left to your 'spiritual' awareness (whatever that meant?). I appreciate your imput. Hope you are ok with my curiousity too. Every little bit could help. Good luck about 'digging for the truth' (isn't that a tv show now?). Since you mentioned that he "modified by his personal spin of theology", I was saying the same thing -I guess- only I was asking if anyone had clues about those changes....?

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Boy, I remember VP ripping on PV that corps week. Someone tattled on PV, or said he was smoking pot. VP was outraged. I talked to PV, told him I was behind him and he told me the story was not true. The girl who said that was angry at him about something and decided to get him. Whether he did or not, to me didn't matter. VP was unconscionable the way he publically humiliated him - his sadistic streak coming out again.

If I were Paul I would have publically told him to keep his ordination. Its amazing the humiliation TWI corps men put up with.

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Sunesis, I read your post and think: "yeah, and tell 'em where he can shove it too!". But alas,... who could speak to vic like that and survive? ("survive" meaning: being able to stick around long enough to talk to anyone else about it afterwards.)

I'm happy to hear that you got to voice a little support to PV; such a tender and gifted guy.

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ohmygod i still cringe at the PV ordeal

--

wing i wanted to repost what you said because it was great

This is great disscussion: clergy - ordained in der vey, how? or why?

Which leads to opening the distinct possiblity that the early growth surge of der vey maybe had been hijacked from other more simple (more guileless) movements?

Which leads to an earnest curiosity, how could this have happened? surely there had to have been some good in it?

How did we, as people, fall into being a part of it at all?

Even if you were there in the heat of it, how to explain it?

Thinking for yourself (rationally) was not encouraged EVER: But renewing your mind to der vey was.

And what about those lock boxes?

It's hard to now track any of those clear thoughts since they were daily suppressed for so many years!

I think that vic did have a plan. I think he was smart enough to have had one. I cringe today seeing hints of it surface. For example:

Sunesis recently quoted Jm Doop expressing that vic treated him like a son. Now that may not be a bannered front page headline for some of you. But it is a vp tactic. Maybe he did it to you too?

If vic could find a 'weakness' in you, then he'd try to test it, or to turn it around as a challenge; to obviate it into something that he could use, maybe make it better for you? (and a strength? well, he'd just give you a challenge to use it.)

(Maybe some of you were taught to sell the class in this manner too?)

I know he did it with me. Early on. Asked me to think of him as my father (he did know that I did not have one growing up). He told me to call him Dad whenever I spoke with him. At the time I thought it such a privilege, ooooo. I was aware of only one other person (also a close friend of mine) that vic was doing that with. But now I think that there were probably lots of others.

It's creepy now, especially with finding out about what some of the women have gone through; but then it was so special. .

It is just my opinion, but I do think that if vp thought you had some quality, or some possession, that he could possibly use; I think he'd find a means to get it from you.

Today, as I now reflect on these long gone events; I am starting to look for what STRINGS WERE ATTACHED TO HIS (veiled?) KINDNESSES?

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Ok, not to sidetrack anybody, but what year did the PV thing happen?

Someone who kept a journal would know better than me (even though I was there)

... ya want a guess? for fading memories sake? either 78, 79, or 80.

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The criteria changed too, imo.

But what motivated vp in his selection?

I've said it before and I'll say it again...

Wierwille ordained guys that he thought could make him money.

I'm sure he flowerd it up with rituals and a variety of "spiritual stuff"...but the bottom line is that is was a scam...

Of course he wanted people who would be "faithful" to him...and he found them...and he made a LOT of money.

The rest of it was window dressing.

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I've said it before and I'll say it again...

Wierwille ordained guys that he thought could make him money.

I'm sure he flowerd it up with rituals and a variety of "spiritual stuff"...but the bottom line is that is was a scam...

Of course he wanted people who would be "faithful" to him...and he found them...and he made a LOT of money.

The rest of it was window dressing.

And this, I think, was at the real heart of the PV fiasco.

Paul had his own product (and a good one at that.)

Wierwille wasn't interested in any sort of internal competition that took money from his own coffers,

Had he been motivated by a genuine interest to have people come to a knowledge of "The Word", as he pretended to be, he would have welcomed and endorsed the independents like Selah, Timothy, Hope, etc. I'm sure I left some out because there were probably lots of others whose names and works were intentionally obscured so as not to detract from the attention focused on the "official" bands.

I want to add that this is a statement regarding VPW's motivations, not a criticism of anyone who was involved in the "official" groups. There were some really good musicians in those groups whose motivations were genuine.

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Wierwille wasn't interested in any sort of internal competition that took money from his own coffers,

...Even as he sucked up all the money from the wayeast and the waywest, Vic made sure that anything that could make money was centralized into his control...for those who didn't willingly turn all their profits over to twi...they were considered less than legitimate.

...The entire concept of "we are God's true ministry" was fashioned in such a way as to not only denigrate anyone who didn't kiss Vic's a**...but it was geared towards generating revenue and consolidating the money into Vic' billfold...

which brings us back to the clergy...the yardstick to measure the success of clergy was in how many classes were run, how much ABS money flowed, etc etc...it was always about their earning power.

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"Had he been motivated by a genuine interest to have people come to a knowledge of "The Word", as he pretended to be, he would have welcomed and endorsed the independents like Selah, Timothy, Hope, etc. I'm sure I left some out because there were probably lots of others whose names and works were intentionally obscured so as not to detract from the attention focused on the "official" bands."

Let's not forget my good friends from Good Seed. They too were hijacked for "special official business". That's the way "smart" businessmen work - if they see a competitor with a superior product they subsume it.

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"Had he been motivated by a genuine interest to have people come to a knowledge of "The Word", as he pretended to be, he would have welcomed and endorsed the independents like Selah, Timothy, Hope, etc. I'm sure I left some out because there were probably lots of others whose names and works were intentionally obscured so as not to detract from the attention focused on the "official" bands."

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Let's not forget my good friends from Good Seed. They too were hijacked for "special official business". That's the way "smart" businessmen work - if they see a competitor with a superior product they subsume it.

Sorry, Y.

Didn't mean to neglect Good Seed.

That's the thing, though, there were probably lots of other groups out there who would have fit nicely with a a plan that was geared toward spreading The Gospel but they didn't fit into VPW's centralized business plan. And, that's what it was, a business plan.

I remember approaching someone with some material I had written in my pre-twi days. I already owned the copyrights. There was no interest in even listening to them to see if they had any musical value. HQ could have never controlled them so what would be the point of investigating them?

Edited by waysider
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WC and college division did not teach Church History such as the church Fathers(post apostolic theologians), the Reformation, or any other period including modern

They did the year I was there (1980-81). Not that the rest of the curriculum was not below the usual standards of Christian colleges, though.

* * *

But on the subject of ordination, a couple of people on this thread (I forget who now) made the excellent point that ALL members of the Body of Christ are called to the same calling, and the whole idea of clergy being somehow above the "normal" believers is not Biblical. It sets up a subserviant attitude and relationship that is very easily abused, and not just in TWI. (The RC Church has done it for centuries.)

If I remember correctly, the only references to ordination with laying on of hands in the New Testament was for specific tasks or positions. The ones who were ordained to serve tables in Acts (including Stephen) is one example. And there are references to people being ordained as overseers of the churches in a given city. But this notion that certain people are "ordained for life" and have a special calling that sets them apart from other believers is simply not Biblical. I still cringe a bit when I see people stick "Rev." in front of their names.

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Paul would have been ordained at Corps Week in 79, the 1rst year there was a "Corps Week". Now, the Corps always came in a bit early but 79 was the "official" first week before raca just for the korks...

Interesting to me that that first kork weak Vic was in the most rotten mood, chewing out V*rge and chomping on Evan and Paul, my 2 buddies from the sickppth kork, for daring to question fatHeadloy for his athletes mumbo-jumbo... that should have been the tip-off right there to avoid all following kork weeks like the devil....

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I don't think VPW had much use for independent projects that weren't generating income for TWI.

Hi waysider, Hi GrouchoMarxJr, Hi Yanagisawa,

I think that it was his pride / ego that motivated vpw more than money.

The getting, keeping, and having of the upper hand in any possible way. Lots of examples come to mind.

If vp ever wasted money, he never-never-never wasted the currency of his own self esteem.

Vp regularly quipped against any egos in da vey purduction peoples ( I personally find that to be ironic)

But, on another note: You mentioned so many localized groups. Do you happen to recall the name of that late 70's (or early 80's) quartet? they came from Chicago? (I think.) There were four guys (black vocalists, who sang to prerecorded tracks in a style kinda like 'earth-wind & fire'). and the song that vp hooked onto was a cover of "Celebration"? They were a 'from the field' musical group that vp brought into hq for a while, and did put on some ministry stages; they may have even done some touring for the ministry.

Does anyone remember them?

Reason I ask, is because of the quick and sudden demise they had when it came to VP's support for them. (I don't think I'm telling any secrets here...) Seems that one of those boys got caught up in a 'sex-on-the-road' experience that was made public, so VP cut em off and sent em home.

Now isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? (no pun -or racial inference- intended)

Was 'Hope' the name of that group out of Columbus? the ones that recorded album 'O Theopholis'? John.... (forgot his name). I really liked what he did. Used to keep up with him, seems forever ago now.

Ralph D also brought a guy in once. Great singer, writer, artist. Forgot his name too. nicknamed Junkyard Dog? I'm sorry that I lost track of him too...

and alfakat .... thanks. hope that you and yours are doing well!

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Hi, Wing

Re: Hope

Yes, the group was out of Columbus.(Or thereabouts)

They consisted of John M3zzerzchmit and Larry & Marianne Sh!cks, though there was a host of other believers who worked on it.

I still have the LP and listen to it from time to time. Good stuff, for sure.

I don't know any production details but I know it was not recorded in a TWI facility.

Re: The Quartet.

I remember quite well seeing them perform at a "Public Ex." (promotional meeting aimed at selling PLAF(The Wonder Class) in Columbus in the late '70's or early '80's. They were very talented. This was at a time when there was a big push to recruit newbies from the Black Community. They opened and closed their show with Celebration with the lyrics changed to make them "more accurate". <_< They sang to prerecorded tracks. We used to call that technique "tape-overs".

Even though I can still picture them and hear them like it was yesterday, I, too, am at a loss for their name.

It will probably come to me at 3am. LOL

Re: Independent projects.

That's a good point about Wierwille not wanting to share the limelight with anyone.

Perhaps that was coupled with a desire to profit financially?

Either way, I don't see his actions being those of someone whose chief concern was to spread The Gospel.

Edited by waysider
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Yes that is correct. New Horizons was a quartet from the South Side of Chicago that opened ROA with "Celebrate." R0b W1ll1ams and I sort of hosted their tour around Ohio in 1981 or 82 so we may have met Waysider. Not that I want to wax nostalgic about any of that.

New Horizons?
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doojable: New Horizons! Thank you.

waysider: Thanks! way to go! john m...... sometimes those names from long ago just tease my memory.

100% agree with you that vp's actions do not match those of one whose chief concern was the spread of the gospel.

I know that money played a part. follow the money. always a motivator. I would not play that down.

But his dander didn't get up much about money. He pretty much got things he wanted. (Even before the 70's growth spurt.) A lot of that with Harry's help. I think he may have used his brother. :( I wonder if there was maybe a quiet sibling rivalry that vic ultimately won?

How carefully VPW guarded the things that affected his own self perception, and the precious perceptions of others about him.

How carelessly he treated other things.

When it came to money (even in the overall plaf loss-leader scam of TWI), the money maybe was sweet, but domination over people... surely that was sweet too.

No doubt that some clergy ordinations became money makers. No doubt that some of them became money losers. But no doubt they all stroked that man-o-gawd ego, vowing their allegiance to his verd.

A driving ego may explain a lot.

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