Just wanted to add that, if taking the work of some little known scholars with an, out of the mainstream theory, and blowing it up to epic purportions ---isn't a
TWI trait and mindset than I don't know what is.
When I was in TWI I had NO IDEA Vic swiped out of the mainstream theology from little known scholars. I believed it was 'snow on the gas pumps' revelation that hadn't been seen since the First Century Church. Not until leaving TWI and finding GSC did I have any idea that the swiping actually occurred.
I suspect this was the process for many ex TWI here.
When I was in TWI I had NO IDEA Vic swiped out of the mainstream theology from little known scholars. I believed it was 'snow on the gas pumps' revelation that hadn't been seen since the First Century Church. Not until leaving TWI and finding GSC did I have any idea that the swiping actually occurred.
I suspect this was the process for many ex TWI here.
I basically started from scratch after leaving TWI. Literally tossing notes, syllabi, books, etc. The very first thing God taught me after walking away (I believe it was Him/Holy Spirit, and it came as a little idea that I mused upon literally for months, then sat down and read the Gospel of John and the first few verses exploded in my head) was - the diety of Christ. That was the first thing - the most important thing. I guess TWI would call it the Trinity. Except it was way beyond TWI's ignorant definition of the trinity. VP had no clue.
It was a Seminarian, when I finally shared with her this amazing/wild idea, who looked at me and said, well, you've just described the trinity.
I think TWI's greatest disservice was its teaching on Jesus Christ. He is not what they taught. Thus, I believe in most ways TWI was not Christian, just in name only.
It denied Christ.
VP, the Word, and "believing" were placed in his stead.
I really believe most TWI people, past and present, with no understanding of Christ, Church history, etc. really do not know what Christianity is. They don't. Because Christianity is not a "what," its a "who."
Its about Christ - he is the revealer, the apokolypsis, to us. Yet, in TWI, he was shoved aside. A cartoon figure up in the sky somewhere who someday will come back, but since he's not here now, let's have our secret doctrines, our top leadership orgies and whatever, because anything goes, as long as you keep it lockbox. TWI had us, its regular followers, and its inner sanctum "initiates."
TWI was just another, in many ways, pagan "mystery religion."
I basically started from scratch after leaving TWI. Literally tossing notes, syllabi, books, etc. The very first thing God taught me after walking away (I believe it was Him/Holy Spirit, and it came as a little idea that I mused upon literally for months, then sat down and read the Gospel of John and the first few verses exploded in my head) was - the diety of Christ. That was the first thing - the most important thing. I guess TWI would call it the Trinity. Except it was way beyond TWI's ignorant definition of the trinity. VP had no clue.
It was six years after I left that I finally and personally encountered the Lord Jesus Christ. He granted me a bona fide miracle, when I called HIM, LORD.
I think TWI's greatest disservice was its teaching on Jesus Christ. He is not what they taught. Thus, I believe in most ways TWI was not Christian, just in name only.
It denied Christ.
You bet it did. I always envisioned him, sitting in his Throne-a-matic, feet up on the ottoman, smoking a Cee-gar, waiting for the Holy Father to tell him to go back to earth. Crazy, huh?
VP, the Word, and "believing" were placed in his stead.
Yeah, its called idolatry.
I really believe most TWI people, past and present, with no understanding of Christ, Church history, etc. really do not know what Christianity is. They don't. Because Christianity is not a "what," its a "who."
Amen!
Its about Christ - he is the revealer, the apokolypsis, to us. Yet, in TWI, he was shoved aside. A cartoon figure up in the sky somewhere who someday will come back, but since he's not here now, let's have our secret doctrines, our top leadership orgies and whatever, because anything goes, as long as you keep it lockbox. TWI had us, its regular followers, and its inner sanctum "initiates." TWI was just another, in many ways, pagan "mystery religion."
Uh-huh. Remember the book they wanted us to buy concerning the "Babylon Mystery Religion"? We could have saved our money, we were already in it.
MAny Christians try to seperate what Jesus said from who He is--Thomas Jefferson comes to mind. They find the beliefs of historic Christianity uncomfortable. Christian behavior on the other hand is important to them. Early Christians faced the same thing --with those who seperate the supernatural from Jesus.
Which leads me to a discussion--long over due--about gnosticism. But, first let me clarify a few terms I have bandied about. Catholic means universal and there are some who may confuse its use with catholicism. Early Christianity was universal in contrast to local and Orthodox as opposed to heretical. This is an important distinction for this discussion, and I want to use these terms clearly.
Terms like orthodox, theology, and religion have meaning, but they also carry contemporary baggage. The term theology means God(theos)ology(rational thought).
The opposite of bad theology is not --- no theology--it is good theology. Rational thought about God. It doesn't mean religion, which is a belief in God and an attempt to live accordingly. Theology is our attempt to give rational explanation about--you guessed it---our religion.
When we have bad theology--an irrational thought process about God, we call it Heresy. It doesn't always mean bad religion, but it can lead to it.
Good theology is Orthodox theology. We sometimes have a reaction to this term that is less than favorable, especially in our current culture. Lots of baggage is tacked on to this term. It shouldn't be. It is. I am an orthodox Christian. What is the immediate response? Groan. It is nothing more than good theology.Theology is akin to philosophy, but not exactly the same thing.
Heretics in the first century church served a purpose, as we have discussed, they created a situation in which doctrine had to be ironed out. Through rational thought about God.
Some might pounce(Here, NAW) and say--why would the revelation of God (Jesus Christ)have to be ironed out? See, Christianity is nothing more than another religion. Wait a minute, the two are not the same. Theology is human understanding of God's truth. Different people think differently, and the early church was,
universal. It was not a localized movement. It spread over different cultures, people and faiths. Different reasoning processes.
We all know the two main cultures of early Christianity. Jewish, and Gentile--or Greek. Night and day. Jewish people knew God as one, a personal God-Yahweh--to the gentile this concept was at best abstract. The greek had a more precise contemplation of God, they were philisophical. Exacting. They had to believe to accept Christ, but this was their culture and thought process.
Most of the early Christians and the apostles were Jewish, and talked of Jesus as the Messiah promised in the OT. He was the passover lamb, Jews understood this.
He was also the cornerstone of the Christian church. The apostles didn't hold back on who Jesus is, but they also were clear when it came to those who claimed him to be something else. Christians had to believe that Jesus came in the flesh. Remember the gentiles thought process. Exact. Converts were baptised in Jesus name early on, but eventually in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. (Matthew) Even later (JustinM) In God the father and Lord of the universe, Jesus Christ, crucified under pontius Pilate, and the Holy Spirit who prophets foretold all things about Jesus"
Why the change?--corrupted confusion or a reaction to something and an establishing of who Jesus is. These practices were being formulated to resist prevelant
error. Worship of Jesus(Did she just say that?) is central to Christianity--then and now. There is an irreconciable distinction that cannot be breached here. I am slowly getting to gnostics. In John, he is having a dual discussion. With those who didn't think Jesus is fully God, and those who don't think He is fully human. Remember, in Christ, the eternal word of God--became incarnate. Also, John 20:31--he was trying to show the deity of Christ. And then to those who thought he was only human---without flesh and blood--there were those who promoted this thought. He explains how Jesus bled real blood when crucified. There was some odd beliefs going around then, and now. Thank-you TWI--a corruption of the simplicity of the promised Messiah.
Heresies--the Ebonites--This should sound familar--they taught that Jesus was merely a perfect man--justified by His sinless life. He earned the Messiahship so to speak. Docetism took the opposite view--Jesus was a ghost basically, he looked like a man--but he was really only seemed so. He seemed to suffer, and seemed to die. Since He was a ghost He couldn't die. What is crucial to the gospel and the promised Messiah is that he did suffer and die. We would know better than most that man has a very hard time with the concept of God in the flesh.
First Century thinkers were no different. Some tried to change and retell the gospel(good news) in line with their own reasoning process. It was a loose movement which dwelt on the outskirts of Apostolic Christianity in the early Church. Gnosticism. It wasn't centralized. There were differing views on this. This should give some pause here. It wasn't Christianity that was abounding in confusion, but the gnostic movement. The two are often confused. Each group had their own special knowledge and a central figure who would enlighten them. Simialar to a MOG. GNOSIS--knowledge. They had the path or the way of life. Hmmmm sounds so familar. BUT, they were likened to Christianity in their common beliefs. Salvation, a God, angels. Some Christians didn't understand the differences, and gnostics would creep into the churches. They wanted to reform them.
They all changed the reality of a God who came in the flesh to save us, to a often weaker demi-God--PERFECT MAN--the stories of the different beliefs are an enlightening and fun read. They vary, but the central theme is a different Jesus than the Jewish Messiah. It was full of different versions, but it was all HERESY. It also appealed to the intellectual. Schools of gnostic thought grew up all over. It was popular in the 19th century as well. Jesus was a great man, but. . . And He did fascinate people like Thomas Jefferson, we have evidence He spent a great deal of time taking down all of Jesus words and deleting any reference to His deity. Ghandi as well. Gnoticism appeals to those who seek to raise Christian faith to an intellectual exercise and higher realm. It appeals to those who love knowledge for knowledges sake.
Christianity however, is consistent in its central theme. The Messiah foretold in the OT. There is a reason to the evolving early doctrine. It was to combat this prolific movement.
Why don't we have this today? We do, in the form of cults like TWI. But what happens to the enlightenment of the moment--it is discarded for the next great theory.
I want to get to Marcion when my fingers are not so numb. There are sound reasons for the cannon, and plausible explanations to the words and reactions of the Church fathers. Also, some very interesting ideas as to the formulations of the cannon as we have it in the protestant world today. I really want to talk about that in relationship to the early church. LATER
To those who say they didn't know that Vic swiped from little known scholars I would ask--what was 4 crucified about? Where did we get that or 6 crowings?
Ignorance of the law is no guarantee of innocence. We latched on like babies with a bottle, and blew these out of the norm theories to epic beliefs.
We knew the word like it has not been known. It is a trait that we learned and a habit that can carry right on over.
Back to gnosticism. If the early Christians had not acted with such vehemance(for some) enthusiasm for others, -The Christian would have lost the heritage we have from Judaism---the gospel(good news) would have been a bickering between a few. It would have disappeared -- another mysery religion.
You might be wondering why --- if it is of God then it wouldn't disappear right? Well, it didn't, it is still the largest faith in the world, but this is where we witness the Providence of God. This is how God works, He allows the actions of men like the gnostics(Who have free will) and the fathers to bring about His will. We were very confused about how God often works in TWI. But that is for later.
Gnostics as we may realize(Thanks TWI) are very hard to talk to. They have a knowledge given to them by their MOG that is not "Available" to others unless they are part of the group-PFAL. Christians had real difficulty combatting gnostics. They did not like the Jews,(Myth of the 6 million) whose OT God they thought was a cruel tyrant. Many Christians were once Jews. There was no real love lost there.
Remember that gnostics always promote another Jesus. And why this is so very important to understand is the road that leads to salvation is narrow. It may not matter to you as an atheist or Pagan or Wiccan. It is very important to the Christian. They were watching people be tricked and decieved by another gospel. A false gospel. They had to find a way to combat this. You may ask, if their gospel was so great why were people fooled? Why were we? They often prey on the new seekers and those who are lured by promises of unique enlightenment. Nothing new-we see it today. People believing a magic formula uttered once of another Jesus, and boom-born again. Not so. You have to hear the truth of Jesus to accept Him and when you do you make Him Lord in your life. Christians were not just disturbed by the spread of gnoticism as a numbers game, Christianity is a message of love. They were fighting for souls as well.
Christians had to rise up and clarify their own orthodox doctrines. They had to clean house of the heresies. It is also important to realize what was going on with the church at this time. Christian and gnostic alikes--a fact many gnostics boasted of, were being ruthlessly presecuted. There is that pesky alikening to Christianity that was more than they bartered for I imagine. But, the reality is, like us in TWI--many gnostics really did not understand the difference and considered themselves Christians. If it walks like a duck---we in TWI thought we had the right Jesus--it was everyone else that was wrong. We considered ourselves Christians. We even had persecution. Those darn Christians were after us because we were enlightened.
Back to the early church.
One gnostic in paticular was very powerful. But, he started out in the church as an influential member of the Christian faith--remember, not of us.
Numb fingers--I will get back to him--Marcion.
Adding. . . . .
I guess I just want to stress again, how offensive another Jesus is to the Christian faith--it is so important to understanding the cannon and is a large part of why we have it. There is something comforting in the knowledge that these fathers took this stand. For 2000 years people have been trying to destroy the loving and simple message of salvation offered so freely. It strikes at the core of our being--it either woos us or offends us, there are those on the fence, but all have a reaction. The name of Jesus causes so many to stumble. It provokes a reaction from many on this thread. Either one of anger or of disbelief and I have even seen condescention. Why? WHY Is the name of Jesus such cause for alarm? Because whether you accept it or not, you all make a choice. To ignore the message, or belittle the message, or raise your intellect above the message. It does not make God any less real, and I think somewhere deep inside us we sense that. Hence the reaction.
But another Jesus, or a false gospel can steal--it robs people of eternal salvation. It is an affront to the heritage we have from The JEwish People. It is a counterfeit.
If you thought you were buying a diamond ring--and found out too late to return it that it was cubic zirconia and you were stuck with it forever, and someone knew and didn't tell you. . . . . . As Christians we are exhorted to reach in and pull out those in the fire of apostasy. Warned to be careful, lest we get burned by its powerful influence. There is a reason for it.
But, back to Marcion --We have talked about him at length but never really discussed what we know of him. There is not alot to know of his history. He was born at Sinope, the son of a bishop. We know the church where he was raised was established by Paul. He was wealthy--a ship owner.. . . .
Your posts are refreshing. I hope you don’t mind me asking if you have a church/denominational affiliation, and what that affiliation is. Also, if you used to post at WayDale under another nick.
Actually I think Geisha left everyone out while trying to put everyone in their own little place in her mind.
But, Hey, I don't know anything.
Cman,
I’m going to bug out so I will not be a distraction while Geisha hammers nails as she wants to drive them, but I find it unsurprising that the assumption in Geisha's posts about an objective religious truth (together with resultant real and false believers) would be offensive to you.
Suggestion: Every time you have an itch in your religious pluralism, a yearning to experience more of your religious autonomy, or find yourself offering your devotion to a narcissistic thought, eat a prune.
To those who say they didn't know that Vic swiped from little known scholars I would ask--what was 4 crucified about? Where did we get that or 6 crowings?
OK--First of all, I realize you were asking Sunesis, not me. Secondly, I'm not sure if you genuinely want to know the answer to that question or I'm misinterpreting your meaning.
You can find some information on "4 crucified" on this link:
??? I guess I don't get your point. It sounds like somehow we were supposed to know back then that Vic was wrong...
Back in my Way daze it seems to me we all believed that Vic was the greatest apostle since Paul, so , no, in those days I did not consider that he stole 4 crucified etc from anyone else.
Where did it come from?Why,Vic was the man of God of the entire world teaching us Truth. Now that we look back we know differently, but at that time...nope. As far as I knew, all of PFAL was what God told Vic to teach, the result of Vic's hard work and special connection to God.
No doubt about it, I am one of the clueless ones that God or Jesus didn't give the scoop too, though apparently many others 'got' it, what ever it is. But I am done with trying to get it. In my pov, it was just never the path for me, since in all my past sincerity whatever it was never really was part of me...and now I see no reason to, which, while horribly offensive(and punishable by eternal damnation) to the ones who 'get' it, is at least honest and not faking to please others.
The whole 'You didn't know/understand/study/learn/believe/do/try/obey/research like I did' aspect of finding the true Christian doctrine makes me weary and somewhat depressed. It all seems very 'secret squirrel club' and as much a mystery as the maligned mystery religions.
I think I need to refresh myself in something else.
I'm with you, Bramble. I've been on the "outside" of Christianity since I was a child, at least as it is known in the traditional sense. I apparently "didn't get it" then and I don't now. The closest I have ever been to being on the "inside" of Christianity, was with TWI - what does that say????
Even to this very day, I am on the outside of any religious organizations. I am sure there are probably some pretty okay ones out there, but weeding out the bad from the good just sounds like too much work. Personally, I don't care to surround myself with people who are only willing to accept me if I think/believe/worship exactly as I do, with little room for self expression and individualization. That is one of the draws to Judaism for me. Judaism was really designed for the individual. While it does teach the "hows" of being a community, most certainly, the worship portions are pretty much performed in the home and with the family. Yes there are synogugues, but there is no "sin" in not going - at least not that I've found.
I don't believe that is how God intended it. If it were, he could have just made us a bunch of little pre-programmed robots, but He didn't. He designed us to have our own personalities, our own thoughts, our own feelings.
Speaking of gnostics and the love of knowledge . . . . .
I love to learn. Yup, I truly do. I enjoy reading about history, God, many different religious beliefs, etc. etc. But I think the true danger of knowledge isn't the knowledge itself or even the love of knowledge . . . it is becoming "puffed up" and assuming you have all the answers and everyone else is just ignorant/mislead/deceived.
Cman,
I’m going to bug out so I will not be a distraction while Geisha hammers nails as she wants to drive them, but I find it unsurprising that the assumption in Geisha's posts about an objective religious truth (together with resultant real and false believers) would be offensive to you.
Suggestion: Every time you have an itch in your religious pluralism, a yearning to experience more of your religious autonomy, or find yourself offering your devotion to a narcissistic thought, eat a prune.
Cynic
I'll take Clay's "religious pluralism" over the narrow minded "us v them" religious co-dependence every time.
You don't have to go--Really, you don't have to leave--no I INSIST--stay!! :)
If I told you I was Orthodox in my theology-conservative in my approach--with strong Calvinist leanings and landed in a Baptist Church, you would probably get
right where I am coming from. I am so much a Calvinist that the end of Cman's response to you started making sense!LOL BTW-Thanks Cynic
No, I came in off the street and didn't quite realize it was a demilirtarized zone. Some of the questions and comments here really intrigue me. I respect the honesty
and intellect of some of these posters. Relativism defies logic in my mind--hence the curiousity.
Mosey back--an ex-way trinitarian is almost as rare as an ivory billed woodpecker. :)
I am in no way trying to prostleize here. I will say that Jesus and a relationship with him is not secret, it doesn't require too much "special knowledge". It is a choice and you always articulate yours really well. As you call it, another path. I get it. I am not seeking to change your mind. I can even make assumptions about you given your path. I may be wrong, but I would imagine you are inclusive, nonjudgemental, gentle and probably very kind. That I glean from your chosen path.
Hi Waysider,
THANKS! I was sick a few weeks ago when I started posting and I sat in bed and read the entire thread. It was interesting to look at that again. I guess my point
was Christianity is not completely void of scholarly men, and this info has not changed the way we print bibles--is all. It hasn't really rocked the Christian world. I
really enjoy your posts. You are one I always make sure to read!
Cman,
I have NO animosity toward you or anyone here. I like ex-way people. Sorry to have offended you with my ideas. It was not my intention.
Here we go again. One who believes in Christ is "narrow minded." Cman opens after Geisha's post with a nice little smackdown. We were having a nice exchange of ideas here. See my other thread.
So, should Geisha shut up now? Is the concensus that she's narrow minded? Have her posts offended you?
She gave a nice discourse on history. Did people here even read it? It was rather fascinating and part of a discussion she's having with Danny. I think they've both met their match and hopefully will both continue.
I didn't get a chance to read each and every word of your posts, but thanks for taking the time to outline some of the history of the church, it was refreshing.
But it sounds like you need carpal tunnel surgery, what with all of the remarks of numb fingers, etc. But keep on posting and don't let other posters scare you
away, even if they are offended. You'll find a lot (not all) of the posters here so wounded from TWI that they won't give the True Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ a chance. But if they did, they would find HE is completely different from anything every learned in TWI. He also knows how to keep both sheep folds, the Jewish one and the Christian one, for HE is the Savior of both. Hallelujah! Are you an ordained minister?
I know I sound terse and tense. I apologize. It is, in part, because of that terseness and tenseness that comes out in me when I've been hanging around the cafe for too long that I leave this place for stretches at a time.
I just get very frustrated with the us v. them. Christians v non-Christians, Apologists v Anti-TWIers, Liberals v. Conservatives. This place is so completely polarized on nearly every issue that it becomes damned near impossible to have a civilized conversation with anyone!!
I know I sound terse and tense. I apologize. It is, in part, because of that terseness and tenseness that comes out in me when I've been hanging around the cafe for too long that I leave this place for stretches at a time.
I just get very frustrated with the us v. them. Christians v non-Christians, Apologists v Anti-TWIers, Liberals v. Conservatives. This place is so completely polarized on nearly every issue that it becomes damned near impossible to have a civilized conversation with anyone!!
It may be a knee-jerk reaction, Abigail, but being polarized upon a particular subject sometimes helps stabilize the boat, so to speak. Behold the wonderful legacy of TWI dogma and mentality.
That may be how we sound, but not what we try to say.
I'm as harsh as any, but if some can look past that and see what I'm trying to communicate, that may help.
I feel like we are similar in that way of speaking.
That could very well be. Perhaps that is why we get along so well. :)
It may be a knee-jerk reaction, Abigail, but being polarized upon a particular subject sometimes helps stabilize the boat, so to speak. Behold the wonderful legacy of TWI dogma and mentality.
I don't think being polarized does, but having opposing views CAN, if the opposing parties are willing to truly give an honest and critical consideration of what the other person is saying and one's own pov.
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geisha779
Hi Invisible Dan You said "When you gather all the citations from the gospels of such cases, it presents us a rather unsettling depiction. Unsettling in the fact that it's all too familiar." I have
geisha779
Hi Oakspear, Badgering me? I hardly see your discussion as such!! I had better be able to tell you WHY I believe the bible is true, and correct in its declarations of God. That it is His declaration
geisha779
Again--missing my point. I truly understand why. I could once show you scholarship for The Myth of the 6 Million. I bet you, that at one time, if not believed it-----you seriously considered it.
Bramble
When I was in TWI I had NO IDEA Vic swiped out of the mainstream theology from little known scholars. I believed it was 'snow on the gas pumps' revelation that hadn't been seen since the First Century Church. Not until leaving TWI and finding GSC did I have any idea that the swiping actually occurred.
I suspect this was the process for many ex TWI here.
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waysider
Ditto
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Sunesis
Oh yeah, totally agree.
I basically started from scratch after leaving TWI. Literally tossing notes, syllabi, books, etc. The very first thing God taught me after walking away (I believe it was Him/Holy Spirit, and it came as a little idea that I mused upon literally for months, then sat down and read the Gospel of John and the first few verses exploded in my head) was - the diety of Christ. That was the first thing - the most important thing. I guess TWI would call it the Trinity. Except it was way beyond TWI's ignorant definition of the trinity. VP had no clue.
It was a Seminarian, when I finally shared with her this amazing/wild idea, who looked at me and said, well, you've just described the trinity.
I think TWI's greatest disservice was its teaching on Jesus Christ. He is not what they taught. Thus, I believe in most ways TWI was not Christian, just in name only.
It denied Christ.
VP, the Word, and "believing" were placed in his stead.
I really believe most TWI people, past and present, with no understanding of Christ, Church history, etc. really do not know what Christianity is. They don't. Because Christianity is not a "what," its a "who."
Its about Christ - he is the revealer, the apokolypsis, to us. Yet, in TWI, he was shoved aside. A cartoon figure up in the sky somewhere who someday will come back, but since he's not here now, let's have our secret doctrines, our top leadership orgies and whatever, because anything goes, as long as you keep it lockbox. TWI had us, its regular followers, and its inner sanctum "initiates."
TWI was just another, in many ways, pagan "mystery religion."
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brideofjc
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geisha779
MAny Christians try to seperate what Jesus said from who He is--Thomas Jefferson comes to mind. They find the beliefs of historic Christianity uncomfortable. Christian behavior on the other hand is important to them. Early Christians faced the same thing --with those who seperate the supernatural from Jesus.
Which leads me to a discussion--long over due--about gnosticism. But, first let me clarify a few terms I have bandied about. Catholic means universal and there are some who may confuse its use with catholicism. Early Christianity was universal in contrast to local and Orthodox as opposed to heretical. This is an important distinction for this discussion, and I want to use these terms clearly.
Terms like orthodox, theology, and religion have meaning, but they also carry contemporary baggage. The term theology means God(theos)ology(rational thought).
The opposite of bad theology is not --- no theology--it is good theology. Rational thought about God. It doesn't mean religion, which is a belief in God and an attempt to live accordingly. Theology is our attempt to give rational explanation about--you guessed it---our religion.
When we have bad theology--an irrational thought process about God, we call it Heresy. It doesn't always mean bad religion, but it can lead to it.
Good theology is Orthodox theology. We sometimes have a reaction to this term that is less than favorable, especially in our current culture. Lots of baggage is tacked on to this term. It shouldn't be. It is. I am an orthodox Christian. What is the immediate response? Groan. It is nothing more than good theology.Theology is akin to philosophy, but not exactly the same thing.
Heretics in the first century church served a purpose, as we have discussed, they created a situation in which doctrine had to be ironed out. Through rational thought about God.
Some might pounce(Here, NAW) and say--why would the revelation of God (Jesus Christ)have to be ironed out? See, Christianity is nothing more than another religion. Wait a minute, the two are not the same. Theology is human understanding of God's truth. Different people think differently, and the early church was,
universal. It was not a localized movement. It spread over different cultures, people and faiths. Different reasoning processes.
We all know the two main cultures of early Christianity. Jewish, and Gentile--or Greek. Night and day. Jewish people knew God as one, a personal God-Yahweh--to the gentile this concept was at best abstract. The greek had a more precise contemplation of God, they were philisophical. Exacting. They had to believe to accept Christ, but this was their culture and thought process.
Most of the early Christians and the apostles were Jewish, and talked of Jesus as the Messiah promised in the OT. He was the passover lamb, Jews understood this.
He was also the cornerstone of the Christian church. The apostles didn't hold back on who Jesus is, but they also were clear when it came to those who claimed him to be something else. Christians had to believe that Jesus came in the flesh. Remember the gentiles thought process. Exact. Converts were baptised in Jesus name early on, but eventually in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. (Matthew) Even later (JustinM) In God the father and Lord of the universe, Jesus Christ, crucified under pontius Pilate, and the Holy Spirit who prophets foretold all things about Jesus"
Why the change?--corrupted confusion or a reaction to something and an establishing of who Jesus is. These practices were being formulated to resist prevelant
error. Worship of Jesus(Did she just say that?) is central to Christianity--then and now. There is an irreconciable distinction that cannot be breached here. I am slowly getting to gnostics. In John, he is having a dual discussion. With those who didn't think Jesus is fully God, and those who don't think He is fully human. Remember, in Christ, the eternal word of God--became incarnate. Also, John 20:31--he was trying to show the deity of Christ. And then to those who thought he was only human---without flesh and blood--there were those who promoted this thought. He explains how Jesus bled real blood when crucified. There was some odd beliefs going around then, and now. Thank-you TWI--a corruption of the simplicity of the promised Messiah.
Heresies--the Ebonites--This should sound familar--they taught that Jesus was merely a perfect man--justified by His sinless life. He earned the Messiahship so to speak. Docetism took the opposite view--Jesus was a ghost basically, he looked like a man--but he was really only seemed so. He seemed to suffer, and seemed to die. Since He was a ghost He couldn't die. What is crucial to the gospel and the promised Messiah is that he did suffer and die. We would know better than most that man has a very hard time with the concept of God in the flesh.
First Century thinkers were no different. Some tried to change and retell the gospel(good news) in line with their own reasoning process. It was a loose movement which dwelt on the outskirts of Apostolic Christianity in the early Church. Gnosticism. It wasn't centralized. There were differing views on this. This should give some pause here. It wasn't Christianity that was abounding in confusion, but the gnostic movement. The two are often confused. Each group had their own special knowledge and a central figure who would enlighten them. Simialar to a MOG. GNOSIS--knowledge. They had the path or the way of life. Hmmmm sounds so familar. BUT, they were likened to Christianity in their common beliefs. Salvation, a God, angels. Some Christians didn't understand the differences, and gnostics would creep into the churches. They wanted to reform them.
They all changed the reality of a God who came in the flesh to save us, to a often weaker demi-God--PERFECT MAN--the stories of the different beliefs are an enlightening and fun read. They vary, but the central theme is a different Jesus than the Jewish Messiah. It was full of different versions, but it was all HERESY. It also appealed to the intellectual. Schools of gnostic thought grew up all over. It was popular in the 19th century as well. Jesus was a great man, but. . . And He did fascinate people like Thomas Jefferson, we have evidence He spent a great deal of time taking down all of Jesus words and deleting any reference to His deity. Ghandi as well. Gnoticism appeals to those who seek to raise Christian faith to an intellectual exercise and higher realm. It appeals to those who love knowledge for knowledges sake.
Christianity however, is consistent in its central theme. The Messiah foretold in the OT. There is a reason to the evolving early doctrine. It was to combat this prolific movement.
Why don't we have this today? We do, in the form of cults like TWI. But what happens to the enlightenment of the moment--it is discarded for the next great theory.
I want to get to Marcion when my fingers are not so numb. There are sound reasons for the cannon, and plausible explanations to the words and reactions of the Church fathers. Also, some very interesting ideas as to the formulations of the cannon as we have it in the protestant world today. I really want to talk about that in relationship to the early church. LATER
I will not edit for spelling--sound it out.
Geisha
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geisha779
Hi Sunesis,
To those who say they didn't know that Vic swiped from little known scholars I would ask--what was 4 crucified about? Where did we get that or 6 crowings?
Ignorance of the law is no guarantee of innocence. We latched on like babies with a bottle, and blew these out of the norm theories to epic beliefs.
We knew the word like it has not been known. It is a trait that we learned and a habit that can carry right on over.
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geisha779
Back to gnosticism. If the early Christians had not acted with such vehemance(for some) enthusiasm for others, -The Christian would have lost the heritage we have from Judaism---the gospel(good news) would have been a bickering between a few. It would have disappeared -- another mysery religion.
You might be wondering why --- if it is of God then it wouldn't disappear right? Well, it didn't, it is still the largest faith in the world, but this is where we witness the Providence of God. This is how God works, He allows the actions of men like the gnostics(Who have free will) and the fathers to bring about His will. We were very confused about how God often works in TWI. But that is for later.
Gnostics as we may realize(Thanks TWI) are very hard to talk to. They have a knowledge given to them by their MOG that is not "Available" to others unless they are part of the group-PFAL. Christians had real difficulty combatting gnostics. They did not like the Jews,(Myth of the 6 million) whose OT God they thought was a cruel tyrant. Many Christians were once Jews. There was no real love lost there.
Remember that gnostics always promote another Jesus. And why this is so very important to understand is the road that leads to salvation is narrow. It may not matter to you as an atheist or Pagan or Wiccan. It is very important to the Christian. They were watching people be tricked and decieved by another gospel. A false gospel. They had to find a way to combat this. You may ask, if their gospel was so great why were people fooled? Why were we? They often prey on the new seekers and those who are lured by promises of unique enlightenment. Nothing new-we see it today. People believing a magic formula uttered once of another Jesus, and boom-born again. Not so. You have to hear the truth of Jesus to accept Him and when you do you make Him Lord in your life. Christians were not just disturbed by the spread of gnoticism as a numbers game, Christianity is a message of love. They were fighting for souls as well.
Christians had to rise up and clarify their own orthodox doctrines. They had to clean house of the heresies. It is also important to realize what was going on with the church at this time. Christian and gnostic alikes--a fact many gnostics boasted of, were being ruthlessly presecuted. There is that pesky alikening to Christianity that was more than they bartered for I imagine. But, the reality is, like us in TWI--many gnostics really did not understand the difference and considered themselves Christians. If it walks like a duck---we in TWI thought we had the right Jesus--it was everyone else that was wrong. We considered ourselves Christians. We even had persecution. Those darn Christians were after us because we were enlightened.
Back to the early church.
One gnostic in paticular was very powerful. But, he started out in the church as an influential member of the Christian faith--remember, not of us.
Numb fingers--I will get back to him--Marcion.
Adding. . . . .
I guess I just want to stress again, how offensive another Jesus is to the Christian faith--it is so important to understanding the cannon and is a large part of why we have it. There is something comforting in the knowledge that these fathers took this stand. For 2000 years people have been trying to destroy the loving and simple message of salvation offered so freely. It strikes at the core of our being--it either woos us or offends us, there are those on the fence, but all have a reaction. The name of Jesus causes so many to stumble. It provokes a reaction from many on this thread. Either one of anger or of disbelief and I have even seen condescention. Why? WHY Is the name of Jesus such cause for alarm? Because whether you accept it or not, you all make a choice. To ignore the message, or belittle the message, or raise your intellect above the message. It does not make God any less real, and I think somewhere deep inside us we sense that. Hence the reaction.
But another Jesus, or a false gospel can steal--it robs people of eternal salvation. It is an affront to the heritage we have from The JEwish People. It is a counterfeit.
If you thought you were buying a diamond ring--and found out too late to return it that it was cubic zirconia and you were stuck with it forever, and someone knew and didn't tell you. . . . . . As Christians we are exhorted to reach in and pull out those in the fire of apostasy. Warned to be careful, lest we get burned by its powerful influence. There is a reason for it.
But, back to Marcion --We have talked about him at length but never really discussed what we know of him. There is not alot to know of his history. He was born at Sinope, the son of a bishop. We know the church where he was raised was established by Paul. He was wealthy--a ship owner.. . . .
Numb fingers
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Cynic
Geisha779,
Slay and eat, sister!
Your posts are refreshing. I hope you don’t mind me asking if you have a church/denominational affiliation, and what that affiliation is. Also, if you used to post at WayDale under another nick.
A (rather nosy) Trinitarian comrade,
Cynic
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cman
Actually I think Geisha left everyone out while trying to put everyone in their own little place in her mind.
But, Hey, I don't know anything.
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Cynic
Cman,
I’m going to bug out so I will not be a distraction while Geisha hammers nails as she wants to drive them, but I find it unsurprising that the assumption in Geisha's posts about an objective religious truth (together with resultant real and false believers) would be offensive to you.
Suggestion: Every time you have an itch in your religious pluralism, a yearning to experience more of your religious autonomy, or find yourself offering your devotion to a narcissistic thought, eat a prune.
Cynic
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cman
See, you got me wrong too.
No one is left out of eternal life.
And I don't go for eternal torment thinking either.
So use whatever words you choose to poke at me or anyone.
And saying I'm offended is quite foolish.
Think what you want, it's not my problem.
pfft..give me a friggin break
that's out of anyone's hands
as if any person is in charge of this
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waysider
OK--First of all, I realize you were asking Sunesis, not me. Secondly, I'm not sure if you genuinely want to know the answer to that question or I'm misinterpreting your meaning.
You can find some information on "4 crucified" on this link:
http://gbarraxjr.home.insightbb.com/
You can also find info in some of Raf's work, as well.
Oh yeah, VP definitely "lifted" the "4 crucified" stuff, photos and all.
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Bramble
??? I guess I don't get your point. It sounds like somehow we were supposed to know back then that Vic was wrong...
Back in my Way daze it seems to me we all believed that Vic was the greatest apostle since Paul, so , no, in those days I did not consider that he stole 4 crucified etc from anyone else.
Where did it come from?Why,Vic was the man of God of the entire world teaching us Truth. Now that we look back we know differently, but at that time...nope. As far as I knew, all of PFAL was what God told Vic to teach, the result of Vic's hard work and special connection to God.
No doubt about it, I am one of the clueless ones that God or Jesus didn't give the scoop too, though apparently many others 'got' it, what ever it is. But I am done with trying to get it. In my pov, it was just never the path for me, since in all my past sincerity whatever it was never really was part of me...and now I see no reason to, which, while horribly offensive(and punishable by eternal damnation) to the ones who 'get' it, is at least honest and not faking to please others.
The whole 'You didn't know/understand/study/learn/believe/do/try/obey/research like I did' aspect of finding the true Christian doctrine makes me weary and somewhat depressed. It all seems very 'secret squirrel club' and as much a mystery as the maligned mystery religions.
I think I need to refresh myself in something else.
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Abigail
I'm with you, Bramble. I've been on the "outside" of Christianity since I was a child, at least as it is known in the traditional sense. I apparently "didn't get it" then and I don't now. The closest I have ever been to being on the "inside" of Christianity, was with TWI - what does that say????
Even to this very day, I am on the outside of any religious organizations. I am sure there are probably some pretty okay ones out there, but weeding out the bad from the good just sounds like too much work. Personally, I don't care to surround myself with people who are only willing to accept me if I think/believe/worship exactly as I do, with little room for self expression and individualization. That is one of the draws to Judaism for me. Judaism was really designed for the individual. While it does teach the "hows" of being a community, most certainly, the worship portions are pretty much performed in the home and with the family. Yes there are synogugues, but there is no "sin" in not going - at least not that I've found.
I don't believe that is how God intended it. If it were, he could have just made us a bunch of little pre-programmed robots, but He didn't. He designed us to have our own personalities, our own thoughts, our own feelings.
Speaking of gnostics and the love of knowledge . . . . .
I love to learn. Yup, I truly do. I enjoy reading about history, God, many different religious beliefs, etc. etc. But I think the true danger of knowledge isn't the knowledge itself or even the love of knowledge . . . it is becoming "puffed up" and assuming you have all the answers and everyone else is just ignorant/mislead/deceived.
I'll take Clay's "religious pluralism" over the narrow minded "us v them" religious co-dependence every time.
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geisha779
Hi Cynic
You don't have to go--Really, you don't have to leave--no I INSIST--stay!! :)
If I told you I was Orthodox in my theology-conservative in my approach--with strong Calvinist leanings and landed in a Baptist Church, you would probably get
right where I am coming from. I am so much a Calvinist that the end of Cman's response to you started making sense!LOL BTW-Thanks Cynic
No, I came in off the street and didn't quite realize it was a demilirtarized zone. Some of the questions and comments here really intrigue me. I respect the honesty
and intellect of some of these posters. Relativism defies logic in my mind--hence the curiousity.
Mosey back--an ex-way trinitarian is almost as rare as an ivory billed woodpecker. :)
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geisha779
Hi Bramble,
I am in no way trying to prostleize here. I will say that Jesus and a relationship with him is not secret, it doesn't require too much "special knowledge". It is a choice and you always articulate yours really well. As you call it, another path. I get it. I am not seeking to change your mind. I can even make assumptions about you given your path. I may be wrong, but I would imagine you are inclusive, nonjudgemental, gentle and probably very kind. That I glean from your chosen path.
Hi Waysider,
THANKS! I was sick a few weeks ago when I started posting and I sat in bed and read the entire thread. It was interesting to look at that again. I guess my point
was Christianity is not completely void of scholarly men, and this info has not changed the way we print bibles--is all. It hasn't really rocked the Christian world. I
really enjoy your posts. You are one I always make sure to read!
Cman,
I have NO animosity toward you or anyone here. I like ex-way people. Sorry to have offended you with my ideas. It was not my intention.
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cman
I never thought that of you.
And for the last time, as much as you may want me to be.
I am not offended.
Please stop accusing me of it.
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Sunesis
Here we go again. One who believes in Christ is "narrow minded." Cman opens after Geisha's post with a nice little smackdown. We were having a nice exchange of ideas here. See my other thread.
So, should Geisha shut up now? Is the concensus that she's narrow minded? Have her posts offended you?
She gave a nice discourse on history. Did people here even read it? It was rather fascinating and part of a discussion she's having with Danny. I think they've both met their match and hopefully will both continue.
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brideofjc
Hi Geisha,
I didn't get a chance to read each and every word of your posts, but thanks for taking the time to outline some of the history of the church, it was refreshing.
But it sounds like you need carpal tunnel surgery, what with all of the remarks of numb fingers, etc. But keep on posting and don't let other posters scare you
away, even if they are offended. You'll find a lot (not all) of the posters here so wounded from TWI that they won't give the True Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ a chance. But if they did, they would find HE is completely different from anything every learned in TWI. He also knows how to keep both sheep folds, the Jewish one and the Christian one, for HE is the Savior of both. Hallelujah! Are you an ordained minister?
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Abigail
I know I sound terse and tense. I apologize. It is, in part, because of that terseness and tenseness that comes out in me when I've been hanging around the cafe for too long that I leave this place for stretches at a time.
I just get very frustrated with the us v. them. Christians v non-Christians, Apologists v Anti-TWIers, Liberals v. Conservatives. This place is so completely polarized on nearly every issue that it becomes damned near impossible to have a civilized conversation with anyone!!
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cman
No, Sunesis, I do not want Geisha to quit posting.
And, no, not narrow minded, opinionated without all the info.
And my "smackdown" was one that I would not have posted if I wasn't involved in what she is saying. And encouraging more from her. Which happened.
And quite honestly Danny is holding a lot back out of love.
That Geisha has never heard of.
But it don't matter cause we will all know soon.
Every one in their own time.
As for me, I do not have any ill feelings toward anyone.
I've looked my own demons in the eye and spit in them.
So there is nothing that CAN offend me from someone else.
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cman
Ha, Abigail!
That may be how we sound, but not what we try to say.
I'm as harsh as any, but if some can look past that and see what I'm trying to communicate, that may help.
I feel like we are similar in that way of speaking.
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brideofjc
It may be a knee-jerk reaction, Abigail, but being polarized upon a particular subject sometimes helps stabilize the boat, so to speak. Behold the wonderful legacy of TWI dogma and mentality.
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Abigail
That could very well be. Perhaps that is why we get along so well. :)
I don't think being polarized does, but having opposing views CAN, if the opposing parties are willing to truly give an honest and critical consideration of what the other person is saying and one's own pov.
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