Not once have I heard or read of anyone with their own ears claim to have unmistakably recognized a tongue while in TWI (or out of it for that matter). Twice have I seen where posters have said that someone who they considered reliable had heard a tongue that they not only recognized but the interpretation resembled what was said in the tongue. One was just this weekend, where Don't Worry Be Happy related how his father, who spoke over a dozen languages, recognized two tongues, and Allan, a poster from Australia or New Zealand who claimed that his wife, who was of aboriginal ethnicity, recognized a tribal tongue and verified that the interpretation was correct.
I've never had anyone tell me that they heard such a thing themselves, and most tongues that I heard during my time in TWI were so simple and repetitive that after hearing someone speak in tongues a few times I could almost tell you word for word what their tongue would be each time. I even remember hearing some folks from other countries speaking in tongues and then interpreting in their native language and I could always tell the difference, even when it was a language like French with which I had no experience
But there were always stories floating about of so-and-so speaking Spanish, or Gaelic or Japanese or whatever (my tongue was once described as a cross between a Thai sportscaster and a Klingon)
Of course there's VP claiming to have quoted Hebrew and Greek when asked to "speak in another language" that time in Tulsa and Karl Kahler's dad repeating the names of some Pacific volcanoes over and over when he took PFAL.
Whether or not you think that speaking in tongues in general is real, do you think that speaking in tongues in TWI was real?
As someone who was never in TWI, I can't speak from any personal experiences involving the cult. However, a girl I dated in high school asked me to go with her to her church one Sunday. It was a Pentecostal church, and someone spoke in tongues on stage. After awhile, everyone in the small church was "speaking in tongues" and I did not understand any of what was said by any of the people there. I was scared out of my mind. Suffice it to say, I broke up with her after that. :blink:
But as far as glossolalia, or SIT, is concerned, I have quite a bit to say. I don't think a lot of what you see in churches today is authentic. If it is, it's used too much. If not, it is no more than a psychological phenomenon and not a true spiritual experience. St. Paul warned the Corinthian church about misusing the gift of tongues. The purpose of spiritual gifts is for the edification and growth of the entire Church (1 Cor. 12:1-26) and tongues is regarded by Paul as merely another gift, he never showed any particular preference to it. He also emphasizes understanding and interpretation of tongues (1 Cor. 14:9-17, emphasis mine on vv. 13-17). This isn't quite the same as what happened at Pentecost. We could say that there are two types of glossolalia: that which happened at Pentecost, and that which was with the Corinthians.
Corinthian Glossolalia was an activity of the Holy Spirit coming upon a person and compelling him to external expressions directed to God, but not understood by others. (1 Cor. 14:4) In Pentecost Glossolalia, while speaking in several different tongues, both the speaker and the listener understood what was uttered. The Glossolalia manifested in Corinth was the utterance of words, phrases, sentences, etc., intelligible to God but not to the person uttering them. What was uttered needed to be interpreted by another who had the gift of interpretation. (1 Cor. 14:5)
When the person spoke, his soul became passive and his understanding became inactive. He was in a state of ecstasy. While the words or sounds were prayer and praise, they were not clear in meaning and gave the impression of something mysterious. The phenomenon included sighs, groaning, shouting, cries and utterances of disconnected speech, sometimes jubilant and some times ecstatic. There is no question-the Church of Corinth had Glossolalia; St. Paul attests to that and makes mention of it. But he also cautions the Corinthian Christians about excessive use; especially to the exclusion of the other more important gifts. (1 Cor. 12:11-12, 20)
It appears St. Paul was questioned about the working of the Holy Spirit through the Gifts. Corinth was greatly influenced by Greek paganism which included demonstrations, frenzies and orgies all intricately interwoven into their religious practices. In post-Homeric times various cults of Dionysus made their entrance into the Greek world. According to these various religious traditions, music, dancing, intoxication and utterances had the power to make men divine; to produce a condition in which the normal state was left behind and the inspired person perceived what was external to himself and the senses. In other words, the soul was supposed to leave the body, hence the word ecstasy (Gk. ek stasis "out of body"). They believed that while the being was absent from the body, the soul was united with the deity. At such times, the ecstatic person had no consciousness of his own. The Corinthians of Paul's time were living under the influence of Dionysiac religious customs. It was natural that they would find certain similarities more familiar and appealing. Thus the Corinthians began to put more stress on certain gifts like glossolalia. No doubt the apostle was concerned that their ties and memories of the old life should be reason enough to regulate the employment of Glossolalia. In chapter 14, he says:
"I would like for all of you to speak in strange tongues; but I would rather that you had the gift of proclaiming God's message. For the person who proclaims God's message is of greater value than the one who speaks in strange tongues-unless there is someone who can explain what he says, so the whole Church may be edified. So when I come to you, my brethren, what use will I be to you if I speak in strange tongues? Not a bit, unless I bring to you some revelation from God or some knowledge or some inspired message or some teaching."
Apostolic times were a unique period rich with extraordinary and supernatural phenomena for the history of mankind. The Holy Spirit endowed men and women with many gifts in order to bring Christ's message to the world. One of God's gifts during New Testament times was speaking in tongues. But even from New Testament times, it would seem Glossolalia began to phase out. St. Paul, it seems, indicates later in chapter 14 that Glossolalia should be minimized and understood preaching maximized. Justin Martyr, a prolific second-century writer lists several kinds of gifts but does not mention Glossolalia. St. John Chrysostom, an archbishop of the church of Constantinople, wrote numerous homilies on the books of the New Testament during the fourth century but does not appear to make mention of Glossolalia as noted in 1 Corinthians.
Many Christian writers, certainly mystics, wrote about states of ecstasy during praise and worship, of seeing visions of God's kingdom, of what they perceived eternal life with Christ to be, of how the Holy Spirit spoke to them and through them, to others. But from what I've seen theirs was always understood, intelligible, comprehensible communication. Perhaps they could not describe in earthly and material frames of reference what they saw and experienced, but they were conscious and fully aware of what was happening. They were not in some state of senselessness. Even many Christian monks who experience some sort of divine communication and who have reached a state of holiness, do not speak in tongues. They speak in words that are intelligible and utter clear words in hymn and praise of God and His truth. And besides, even if tongues were a notable or very important gift, what St. Paul said holds true, as it does for any gift:
"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing. Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away." (1 Cor. 13:1-3, 8)
Just wanted to add that I think SIT can be both real and fake.
If a person is indulging in glossolalia and it is discernible with brainwave testing, then it is "real".
And, there are some proven, marginal benefits to glossolalia in this category.
If, on the other hand, they are consciously repeated memorized sounds, words, etc., the evidence would present itself in the brainwave testing, as well. I think "practice sessions" probably fall into the latter category.
The question, though, is does it originate with God?
The evidence would suggest it does not but you be the judge.
I agree with Waysider... I think it can be genuine or faked. The whole "SIT cannot be counterfeited" is a load of crap - but I don't know how it works or where it comes from when it is genuine.
So i had this great idea when i was about 14. I was going to record every tounges with interpratation at every fellowship, and analize it. We had been taught that some people had more than one tounge, and that many people spoke in the tounges of angels. I was going to study each one, and compare them to as many languages as I could find.
For the tounges of men, identifying who spoke which would be the ultimate witnessing tool.
As far as the tounges of angels went, well learning to speak a little of those just sounds cool.
Studies like that have actually been done, under scientific circumstances. It was concluded that while in some instances it sounded like language, it didn't have the necessary characteristics to be actual language.
Here is a quote from one writing on it:
Studies now completed or in progress have found no evidence that this phenomenon has either the form or the structure of human speech. Robert Anderson, who takes seriously though not uncritically these Pentecostal claims, cites several studies where tape recordings of glossolalia have been analyzed by linguists who found no resemblance to traditional human language in them. The charismatic John Sherrill played forty different samples of tongue-speech to a group of linguists in New York City. Although they recognized language-like patterns, they were agreed that none of the tapes contained any of the languages with which they were familiar.
Linguist William J. Samarin concludes that, in the hundreds of examples he studied, all lacked several essential elements of languages: vocabulary, grammar, syntax, etc. As a result of his study, he defined glossolalia as "a meaningless but phonologically structured human utterance believed by the speaker to be a real language but bearing no systematic resemblance to any natural language, living or dead."
However, I have heard enough accounts that I would not totally write off the possibility that at least a few instances are genuine. But they are very few and far between. I agree with Brushstroke's take on it. It was not meant to be "THE" gift or sign that identified you as a genuine Christian, nor was it considered as important as most Pentecostals make it today (including TWI and ex's). Paul makes it clear in I Cor. 12 that NOT everyone speaks in tongues (VP's mangling of that passage notwithstanding). And it certainly is not "the only way to know for sure if you're saved," as we were taught.
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seaspray
Howdy, y'all!
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Brushstroke
As someone who was never in TWI, I can't speak from any personal experiences involving the cult. However, a girl I dated in high school asked me to go with her to her church one Sunday. It was a Pentecostal church, and someone spoke in tongues on stage. After awhile, everyone in the small church was "speaking in tongues" and I did not understand any of what was said by any of the people there. I was scared out of my mind. Suffice it to say, I broke up with her after that. :blink:
But as far as glossolalia, or SIT, is concerned, I have quite a bit to say. I don't think a lot of what you see in churches today is authentic. If it is, it's used too much. If not, it is no more than a psychological phenomenon and not a true spiritual experience. St. Paul warned the Corinthian church about misusing the gift of tongues. The purpose of spiritual gifts is for the edification and growth of the entire Church (1 Cor. 12:1-26) and tongues is regarded by Paul as merely another gift, he never showed any particular preference to it. He also emphasizes understanding and interpretation of tongues (1 Cor. 14:9-17, emphasis mine on vv. 13-17). This isn't quite the same as what happened at Pentecost. We could say that there are two types of glossolalia: that which happened at Pentecost, and that which was with the Corinthians.
Corinthian Glossolalia was an activity of the Holy Spirit coming upon a person and compelling him to external expressions directed to God, but not understood by others. (1 Cor. 14:4) In Pentecost Glossolalia, while speaking in several different tongues, both the speaker and the listener understood what was uttered. The Glossolalia manifested in Corinth was the utterance of words, phrases, sentences, etc., intelligible to God but not to the person uttering them. What was uttered needed to be interpreted by another who had the gift of interpretation. (1 Cor. 14:5)
When the person spoke, his soul became passive and his understanding became inactive. He was in a state of ecstasy. While the words or sounds were prayer and praise, they were not clear in meaning and gave the impression of something mysterious. The phenomenon included sighs, groaning, shouting, cries and utterances of disconnected speech, sometimes jubilant and some times ecstatic. There is no question-the Church of Corinth had Glossolalia; St. Paul attests to that and makes mention of it. But he also cautions the Corinthian Christians about excessive use; especially to the exclusion of the other more important gifts. (1 Cor. 12:11-12, 20)
It appears St. Paul was questioned about the working of the Holy Spirit through the Gifts. Corinth was greatly influenced by Greek paganism which included demonstrations, frenzies and orgies all intricately interwoven into their religious practices. In post-Homeric times various cults of Dionysus made their entrance into the Greek world. According to these various religious traditions, music, dancing, intoxication and utterances had the power to make men divine; to produce a condition in which the normal state was left behind and the inspired person perceived what was external to himself and the senses. In other words, the soul was supposed to leave the body, hence the word ecstasy (Gk. ek stasis "out of body"). They believed that while the being was absent from the body, the soul was united with the deity. At such times, the ecstatic person had no consciousness of his own. The Corinthians of Paul's time were living under the influence of Dionysiac religious customs. It was natural that they would find certain similarities more familiar and appealing. Thus the Corinthians began to put more stress on certain gifts like glossolalia. No doubt the apostle was concerned that their ties and memories of the old life should be reason enough to regulate the employment of Glossolalia. In chapter 14, he says:
"I would like for all of you to speak in strange tongues; but I would rather that you had the gift of proclaiming God's message. For the person who proclaims God's message is of greater value than the one who speaks in strange tongues-unless there is someone who can explain what he says, so the whole Church may be edified. So when I come to you, my brethren, what use will I be to you if I speak in strange tongues? Not a bit, unless I bring to you some revelation from God or some knowledge or some inspired message or some teaching."
Apostolic times were a unique period rich with extraordinary and supernatural phenomena for the history of mankind. The Holy Spirit endowed men and women with many gifts in order to bring Christ's message to the world. One of God's gifts during New Testament times was speaking in tongues. But even from New Testament times, it would seem Glossolalia began to phase out. St. Paul, it seems, indicates later in chapter 14 that Glossolalia should be minimized and understood preaching maximized. Justin Martyr, a prolific second-century writer lists several kinds of gifts but does not mention Glossolalia. St. John Chrysostom, an archbishop of the church of Constantinople, wrote numerous homilies on the books of the New Testament during the fourth century but does not appear to make mention of Glossolalia as noted in 1 Corinthians.
Many Christian writers, certainly mystics, wrote about states of ecstasy during praise and worship, of seeing visions of God's kingdom, of what they perceived eternal life with Christ to be, of how the Holy Spirit spoke to them and through them, to others. But from what I've seen theirs was always understood, intelligible, comprehensible communication. Perhaps they could not describe in earthly and material frames of reference what they saw and experienced, but they were conscious and fully aware of what was happening. They were not in some state of senselessness. Even many Christian monks who experience some sort of divine communication and who have reached a state of holiness, do not speak in tongues. They speak in words that are intelligible and utter clear words in hymn and praise of God and His truth. And besides, even if tongues were a notable or very important gift, what St. Paul said holds true, as it does for any gift:
"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing. Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away." (1 Cor. 13:1-3, 8)
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coolchef
imo...sit.....pure bunk!...i know i faked it as did many others
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waysider
Just wanted to add that I think SIT can be both real and fake.
If a person is indulging in glossolalia and it is discernible with brainwave testing, then it is "real".
And, there are some proven, marginal benefits to glossolalia in this category.
If, on the other hand, they are consciously repeated memorized sounds, words, etc., the evidence would present itself in the brainwave testing, as well. I think "practice sessions" probably fall into the latter category.
The question, though, is does it originate with God?
The evidence would suggest it does not but you be the judge.
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JavaJane
I agree with Waysider... I think it can be genuine or faked. The whole "SIT cannot be counterfeited" is a load of crap - but I don't know how it works or where it comes from when it is genuine.
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Mark Clarke
Studies like that have actually been done, under scientific circumstances. It was concluded that while in some instances it sounded like language, it didn't have the necessary characteristics to be actual language.
Here is a quote from one writing on it:
The complete article can be seen here.
Another interesting one can be found here.
However, I have heard enough accounts that I would not totally write off the possibility that at least a few instances are genuine. But they are very few and far between. I agree with Brushstroke's take on it. It was not meant to be "THE" gift or sign that identified you as a genuine Christian, nor was it considered as important as most Pentecostals make it today (including TWI and ex's). Paul makes it clear in I Cor. 12 that NOT everyone speaks in tongues (VP's mangling of that passage notwithstanding). And it certainly is not "the only way to know for sure if you're saved," as we were taught.
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