Shucks, I know this whole court thing is way off topic, but since we're here ----- >>>
I'd like to know --- since when is telling a *ginosko* experience libeling??
Eh???
As I have said an opinion or telling a story is not ,but some have claimed that what they said was not such.
Accusing someone of a crime that they have not been found guilty of is libeling. To call someone a murderer, molester,rapist openly in public orally, in writing, or by any other means, information, tending to expose another living person to public hatred, contempt or ridicule; tending to deprive such person of the benefits of public confidence and social acceptance; or tending to degrade and vilify the memory of one who is dead and to scandalize or provoke surviving relatives and friends is a crime.
Dove, please....this was information that you yourself shared in these forums. Do you not remember?
As for you THINKING that Ilearned this information from another poster...I have no idea what you are talking about . Number one, that would be sneaky and mean, and number two, I try very hard NOT to discuss someone behind their back, and number three, I would not divulge what a third party alleged.
If I am mistaken, please feel free to correct my misunderstanding of what you wrote.
dead people have the right to not be libeled in many states.
You dont think that the litigious happy Way International wouldnt come after these 'offenders' if that was the case and they had a leg to stand on legally?
They know very well what is being said here.
They're not complaining-at least not with any real teeth in it.
They'd love to shut this place down, but chances are they've weighed the risks of legal action and know that there is a very high likelihood that they would lose..In which case their whole organization would be totally f*cked as their founders record would be on public display
so they let it slide because they as well know that its true
You dont think that the litigious happy Way International wouldnt come after these 'offenders' if that was the case and they had a leg to stand on legally?
They know very well what is being said here.
They're not complaining-at least not with any real teeth in it.
They'd love to shut this place down, but chances are they've weighed the risks of legal action and know that there is a very high likelihood that they would lose..In which case their whole organization would be totally f*cked as their founders record would be on public display
so they let it slide because they as well know that its true
These are among those NUMEROUS reasons I mentioned above. Excellent point Mstar.
As I have said an opinion or telling a story is not ,but some have claimed that what they said was not such.
Accusing someone of a crime that they have not been found guilty of is libeling. To call someone a murderer, molester,rapist openly in public orally, in writing, or by any other means, information, tending to expose another living person to public hatred, contempt or ridicule; tending to deprive such person of the benefits of public confidence and social acceptance; or tending to degrade and vilify the memory of one who is dead and to scandalize or provoke surviving relatives and friends is a crime.
,
WD,
Once again, I find myself discussing what the law SAYS on a thread with you.
And you claimed it said one thing, and even a cursory glance says it says ANOTHER.
Your definition of libel is missing a critical ingredient.
One may call someone a murderer, molester, or rapist openly ALL THEY WANT and it is NOT libel-
IF THE STATEMENT IS TRUE.
That's why someone here posted at length about a convicted child molester who was in twi and
freely called him "a child molester" and it's not libel-
This information about WD has been out there for a while... on this website... so he probably won't answer directly, he'll probably just tell you to search it out... but he spent all of his time in wahcheetah kanzaz...
I was going to let him speak for himself Dooj, and Tom, I don`t think Dove ever mentioned where he was (W is close enough though) , that being said, nothing wrong with sp corpes, I am one as well, and there were a whole unique set of problems associated with that.....but even so...that can`t possibly give one the same perspective, or exposure as those who actually participated in and completed in the corpes program, as those whom lived with and interacted with the leaders, or even was a leader themselves.....
To claim that ones perspective is greater than the people whom were actually present to the teachings and pressures, or to understand the wow field and the commitment level expected, what the standards one was held to...the manipulation applied etc...or to believe that one has any idea of what leadership was like outside of your geographic area is simply not realistic.
To insist that second hand information is a credible source to try to discredit others first hand accounts of abuse, mistreatment, and trauma at the hands of twi leaders while involved is simply not reasonable.
I don`t care if you do believe that wierwille was the greatest teacher since the first century....it is when someone tries repeatedly to suppress information to the contrary, or try to discredit people telling their stories that are at odds with this perception, or tries to intimidate or bully into silence someone with jeering or insinuations that someone is a liar or sick or crazy in order to lessen the impact of their testimony. That is when I have a problem.
Personally, if it wasn't bad enough that WD insisted on speaking in irrelevant and unnessessary legal terminology that all by itself would be enough to intimidate many people, he/she adds to it by refusing to deal with the issues at the Greasespot staightforwardly.
He adds no personal credibility of his own to show that he's qualified to set the record straight either.
Chris Geer might be qualified to do this more than any living human being but he's apparently mastered the art of "hiding while still being on his high horse" at the same time.
If he came here with that b.s. emporer attitude of his (Dr. Wierwille taught him that by the way) I'm certain there would be many here more than capable of knocking him off of it.
My Lord was meek and rode in on a colt.
But as long as that man who apparently was fooled into thinking that serving Dr. Wierwille's penis was the same as serving God won't come around here to speak for himself I guess we might have to deal with a few unqualified and incompetant apologists.
I can't get through this whole thing. I skipped ahead six or seven pages. Tell me if I missed anything really important.
Lucy, in answer to your question(s), at least as best I can, it was at an all ladies' meeting (and only one person was referred to). Did I think it was bizarre? I ran away, left and went to the bathroom, and that's where Dot came in. We had a "WTF" conversation, but FOR ME, I think I was rationalizing bigtime -- like maybe trying to convince myself some spiritual message was in there -- I know how gross and what a joke. I have no explanation. Maybe because I was a victim of incest. Maybe because I didn't have proper boundaries. Maybe because I was just totally F'd up. I don't think I thought about shouting anything out to the rooftops, but, at that time, it wasn't because I didn't care about people. I think it was more because of my trying to convince myself that there was some kind of a message there. I really don't know, NOW.
Today, of course, would be a very very different story.
It's like when he counseled me and told me that God wanted to teach me true healing in that area (since he knew about my past abuse). I tried to "buy" it, but there was some kind of a struggle always going on inside me.
I'm going on and on, but I don't know the real reason why. I know I'm ashamed, disgusted, angry, and, if I had to do it all over again, I would handle it differently, but now I have a different "brain" if you will.
More later maybe when I can put into words what I'm trying to say.
Also, I am very very sorry, beyond words, about what happened to you. I understand and can relate.
Children should be guarded, protected, cherished, loved.... I just wish he had understood that.
Chris Geer might be qualified to do this more than any living human being but he's apparently mastered the art of "hiding while still being on his high horse" at the same time.
Chr!$ G33r qualified???? The guy who taught that to *walk on water*,
one needed to start with puddles????? Yea. Right.
Perhaps CG had a colt --- but it wan't any horse. Perhaps .45 caliber.
Colt and NOT a coach --- good connection RumRunner. :)
Chr!$ G33r qualified???? The guy who taught that to *walk on water*,
one needed to start with puddles????? Yea. Right.
Perhaps CG had a colt --- but it wan't any horse. Perhaps .45 caliber.
Colt and NOT a coach --- good connection RumRunner. :)
Just my 2 cents...
I got the impression that Jeff was saying CG was qualified to comment on what VPW did and did not do, not that he was qualified to teach the truth of the Word or anything like that. Also, CG's "high horse" was certainly one of his own making. That perfectly describes his attitude at the time, even though he wasn't the savior of the ministry that he wanted people to think he was.
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geisha779
Hi, Revictimizing the victims of abuse is itself abusive. It speaks volumes about the one doing it. What they still adhere to shapes their perspective and ability to inflict cruelty on those so horr
WhiteDove
Not the point , the argument was lacking in truth dead people have the right to not be libeled in many states.
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WhiteDove
As I have said an opinion or telling a story is not ,but some have claimed that what they said was not such.
Accusing someone of a crime that they have not been found guilty of is libeling. To call someone a murderer, molester,rapist openly in public orally, in writing, or by any other means, information, tending to expose another living person to public hatred, contempt or ridicule; tending to deprive such person of the benefits of public confidence and social acceptance; or tending to degrade and vilify the memory of one who is dead and to scandalize or provoke surviving relatives and friends is a crime.
,
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rascal
Dove, please....this was information that you yourself shared in these forums. Do you not remember?
As for you THINKING that Ilearned this information from another poster...I have no idea what you are talking about . Number one, that would be sneaky and mean, and number two, I try very hard NOT to discuss someone behind their back, and number three, I would not divulge what a third party alleged.
If I am mistaken, please feel free to correct my misunderstanding of what you wrote.
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mstar1
You dont think that the litigious happy Way International wouldnt come after these 'offenders' if that was the case and they had a leg to stand on legally?
They know very well what is being said here.
They're not complaining-at least not with any real teeth in it.
They'd love to shut this place down, but chances are they've weighed the risks of legal action and know that there is a very high likelihood that they would lose..In which case their whole organization would be totally f*cked as their founders record would be on public display
so they let it slide because they as well know that its true
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Rocky
Au contraire... it IS the point.
Unless you can get a law enforced, in a practical sense, there IS no law.
There are numerous reasons you cannot/could not/would not be able to get such a law enforced. Yes, NUMEROUS.
It obviates your point. In no uncertain terms.
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Belle
Dove, please set the record straight.
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Rocky
These are among those NUMEROUS reasons I mentioned above. Excellent point Mstar.
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alfakat
so now we are in court...wd has his testimony and say, dwbh has his,
Whose testimony will carry any weight whatsoever in the case of what really occurred in twi and the land of veepee????
hmmmmmmmm
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WordWolf
WD,
Once again, I find myself discussing what the law SAYS on a thread with you.
And you claimed it said one thing, and even a cursory glance says it says ANOTHER.
Your definition of libel is missing a critical ingredient.
One may call someone a murderer, molester, or rapist openly ALL THEY WANT and it is NOT libel-
IF THE STATEMENT IS TRUE.
That's why someone here posted at length about a convicted child molester who was in twi and
freely called him "a child molester" and it's not libel-
BECAUSE IT'S TRUE.
http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/Term/76...DE16E7/alpha/L/
"libel
An untruthful statement about a person, published in writing or through broadcast media,
that injures the person's reputation or standing in the community. Because libel is a tort (a civil wrong), the injured person can bring
a lawsuit against the person who made the false statement. Libel is a form of defamation , as is slander
(an untruthful statement that is spoken, but not published in writing or broadcast through the media)."
Whether or not a statement is related to something with or without a criminal conviction is not relevant to whether
or not it is libelous. It is relevant to HOW EASY IT IS TO PROVE IT IS NOT LIBELOUS,
but a true statement is no less true for not having seen a court,
and, according to the US courts, a TRUE statement is, by definition, NOT LIBEL.
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WordWolf
Meanwhile, WD, how about you stop playing coy with the rest of us, and make some simple, straightforward statements,
rather than some vague allusions as to knowing something somehow but you're not going to say how?
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doojable
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Tom Strange
This information about WD has been out there for a while... on this website... so he probably won't answer directly, he'll probably just tell you to search it out... but he spent all of his time in wahcheetah kanzaz...
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Rocky
Thank you dooj!
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rascal
I was going to let him speak for himself Dooj, and Tom, I don`t think Dove ever mentioned where he was (W is close enough though) , that being said, nothing wrong with sp corpes, I am one as well, and there were a whole unique set of problems associated with that.....but even so...that can`t possibly give one the same perspective, or exposure as those who actually participated in and completed in the corpes program, as those whom lived with and interacted with the leaders, or even was a leader themselves.....
To claim that ones perspective is greater than the people whom were actually present to the teachings and pressures, or to understand the wow field and the commitment level expected, what the standards one was held to...the manipulation applied etc...or to believe that one has any idea of what leadership was like outside of your geographic area is simply not realistic.
To insist that second hand information is a credible source to try to discredit others first hand accounts of abuse, mistreatment, and trauma at the hands of twi leaders while involved is simply not reasonable.
I don`t care if you do believe that wierwille was the greatest teacher since the first century....it is when someone tries repeatedly to suppress information to the contrary, or try to discredit people telling their stories that are at odds with this perception, or tries to intimidate or bully into silence someone with jeering or insinuations that someone is a liar or sick or crazy in order to lessen the impact of their testimony. That is when I have a problem.
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Mike
Dear Diary,
Today I read a post...
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mstar1
why dont they ever read the rest of the paragraph?
paraphrasing your teacher
Here in video is the Thread Quick Review--
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doojable
This should sound familiar:
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JeffSjo
Personally, if it wasn't bad enough that WD insisted on speaking in irrelevant and unnessessary legal terminology that all by itself would be enough to intimidate many people, he/she adds to it by refusing to deal with the issues at the Greasespot staightforwardly.
He adds no personal credibility of his own to show that he's qualified to set the record straight either.
Chris Geer might be qualified to do this more than any living human being but he's apparently mastered the art of "hiding while still being on his high horse" at the same time.
If he came here with that b.s. emporer attitude of his (Dr. Wierwille taught him that by the way) I'm certain there would be many here more than capable of knocking him off of it.
My Lord was meek and rode in on a colt.
But as long as that man who apparently was fooled into thinking that serving Dr. Wierwille's penis was the same as serving God won't come around here to speak for himself I guess we might have to deal with a few unqualified and incompetant apologists.
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RumRunner
Yes sir - and that one line is a good summary. Rode on a colt - not a coach. Well stated...
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excathedra
I can't get through this whole thing. I skipped ahead six or seven pages. Tell me if I missed anything really important.
Lucy, in answer to your question(s), at least as best I can, it was at an all ladies' meeting (and only one person was referred to). Did I think it was bizarre? I ran away, left and went to the bathroom, and that's where Dot came in. We had a "WTF" conversation, but FOR ME, I think I was rationalizing bigtime -- like maybe trying to convince myself some spiritual message was in there -- I know how gross and what a joke. I have no explanation. Maybe because I was a victim of incest. Maybe because I didn't have proper boundaries. Maybe because I was just totally F'd up. I don't think I thought about shouting anything out to the rooftops, but, at that time, it wasn't because I didn't care about people. I think it was more because of my trying to convince myself that there was some kind of a message there. I really don't know, NOW.
Today, of course, would be a very very different story.
It's like when he counseled me and told me that God wanted to teach me true healing in that area (since he knew about my past abuse). I tried to "buy" it, but there was some kind of a struggle always going on inside me.
I'm going on and on, but I don't know the real reason why. I know I'm ashamed, disgusted, angry, and, if I had to do it all over again, I would handle it differently, but now I have a different "brain" if you will.
More later maybe when I can put into words what I'm trying to say.
Also, I am very very sorry, beyond words, about what happened to you. I understand and can relate.
Children should be guarded, protected, cherished, loved.... I just wish he had understood that.
Later.
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Abigail
(((ExC))) You are very gracious.
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excathedra
thanks, abi, but not really
i just don't have a real problem with whatever
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dmiller
Chr!$ G33r qualified???? The guy who taught that to *walk on water*,
one needed to start with puddles????? Yea. Right.
Perhaps CG had a colt --- but it wan't any horse. Perhaps .45 caliber.
Colt and NOT a coach --- good connection RumRunner. :)
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Mark Clarke
Just my 2 cents...
I got the impression that Jeff was saying CG was qualified to comment on what VPW did and did not do, not that he was qualified to teach the truth of the Word or anything like that. Also, CG's "high horse" was certainly one of his own making. That perfectly describes his attitude at the time, even though he wasn't the savior of the ministry that he wanted people to think he was.
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