Abi, I'm interested in ordering two copies of the book - one for me and one for the therapist that I had for years after leaving TWI. I'm trying to find the link for the book through Amazon that gives credit to Paw for purchasing through GSpot -- I can not find it, though I'm certain it is under my nose.
Can someone please post that link?
I'd like very much to order two copies and I'm going to ask my therapist to give his perceptions/thoughts/whatnot given Kristen's book and his years with me. I'm really looking forward to reading the book. I'm only partially through the first GSpot Radio interview and hope to finish the rest soon.
I will say, based on your post here that, being raised in a middle class/upper middle class family, the fact that everyone I first came in contact with was people of the same class gave credence to their teachings of "the more abundant life". Had I been exposed primarily (as I later was) to people who were mostly struggling to make ends meet, I am pretty sure that those initial claims of "the more abundant life" would have sent me away laughing my arse off. By the time I recognized the difference between what they were teaching and what the people were living, I was so brain dead or conditioned not to question things that I justified it some how.
If you go to the "front page" or "home page" you will find a spot (I think it is on the left hand side toward the bottom but my memory may be fuzzy on that) where you can search amazon from Greasespot. That is what I used to order the books and in both instances I had them in less than 5 days.
What struck me the most was the sexual promiscuity BEFRORE TWI. Although I was certainly surprised at her young age. I "found the Way" in 1973 and one reason I was searching was that I knew I was headed in the wrong direction with drugs and sex (just didn't care about the person, it was just something physical) and I knew this was wrong. I went to my first twig leader, a very good looking young fellow, and "counseled" with him about my lifestyle, etc and "what does the Word say" about all this? I was really looking for answers. Yup, you guessed it, before the counseling session was done I was in bed with my first twig leader (this was before I took PFAL....does that count?
What gets me is that I stayed for 15 YEARS!!! No more sleeping with twig leaders...oh, well there was just that one other (and he was married with 5 kids) I guess the message came across load and clear from day one that it didn't really matter.
I guess for me, reading this book, I see so very many parallels to my own life. Certainly we had vastly different experiences with TWI in many respects. She was in and out before I was even in high school. BUT, as I re-read chapter 1, I am struck by this 14-year-old girl hanging out at "John Pope's" house, no parents around. She is biking across town to party with college kids. Where is the parental supervision?
I think I was 13 the first time I ever went to a frat party. I was 11 or 12 when I was introduced to cigarettes, alcohol, and pot. I have an older brother and step-brother to thank for that. :)
I got soooo sick at that frat party! We were drinking beer and wine and smoking hash. The room flipped completely upside down and I grabbed the couch so I wouldn't hit the ceiling. Man, was I sick. My girlfriends finally managed to get me home, in between bouts of barfing.
I walked into our apartment and my step-dad was in bed - he was sick, he had cancer and was going through chemo or radiation. I opened the fridge door to get a piece of bread because my step-brother had told me once that if you thought you were going to puke you should eat something. Well, I got sick all over the kitchen floor right in front of the fridge. My step dad heard me at that point. He told me my mom was out looking for me and asked me if I had been drinking. I admitted I was. He told me to clean up my mess.
That was pretty much the end of it. I don't recall my mom even discussing it with me.
Wow Abi if I had done that as a child I would have gotten my own switch, if you know what I mean but then again I wouldnt have been at the party in the first place. I kind of came from a different lifestyle than you or Kristen so in that area I saw no paralells with my own life.
The thing that stuck out for me was the mindset once we were in. The insidious cancer thinking that kept me doubting myself and yet always wanting more to correct the doubt. It was a horribly sick circle. The line that a person wasnt spiritually mature enough for whatever was a great hook to keep a person going to more classes and repeating the same ole stuff over and over thinking that somehow you missed something because the MOG keeps saying I'm not spiritually mature. What a crock!
I know that they really used the whole believing and spiritually mature stuff a lot on the 16th and to some extent on the 14th Corps. We were in res when the great Man of God for our day and time died of devil spirit possession! Oh holy cow did we drop the ball somewhere. He died on our watch because our believing didnt protect him!
Anyway Kristen really showed the entire Corps thinking mind set that kept us from questioning, kept us in and kept us under their thumb.
Anyway Kristen really showed the entire Corps thinking mind set that kept us from questioning, kept us in and kept us under their thumb.
She certainly did! I have never been able to explain that part of it to anyone, I guess in many ways I didn't truly understand it myself, but when I read Kristen's book it all fell into place and made sense.
With regard to the parental supervision, Eyes, my parents divorced when I was 8. My father was very busy building his career and had limited visitation with us anyway. My mother went back to school, worked, and eventually remarried only to lose my step-father to cancer a short time later. So, by the time she was done with school and somewhat done grieving (his loss really took a lot out of her - she pretty much disappeared inside herself for about 4 years) and remebered she had children, it was pretty much too late. I was 17 when she finally decided I needed some discipline and guidance in my life, at which point I was convinced I was all grown up, new everything, and was not going to stand for being treated like a child. I moved out when I was 1/2 way through my senior year.
She certainly did! I have never been able to explain that part of it to anyone, I guess in many ways I didn't truly understand it myself, but when I read Kristen's book it all fell into place and made sense.
Yes it did and I really loved the way that she said some of the things. Some of it even sounded 'logical' for that split moment before I remembered what year it was...
My roommate said something to me yesterday that really kind of made me mad...because she was right...I was good in the Corps because I was obedient, not because I was spiritual, or called, or gifted, but obedient. When I ceased being obedient they told me to leave. That just p!sses me off!
Yes it did and I really loved the way that she said some of the things. Some of it even sounded 'logical' for that split moment before I remembered what year it was...
My roommate said something to me yesterday that really kind of made me mad...because she was right...I was good in the Corps because I was obedient, not because I was spiritual, or called, or gifted, but obedient. When I ceased being obedient they told me to leave. That just p!sses me off!
ROFLMAO - Obedience was definitely something that didn't come naturally to me!! I think somewhere inside I knew that, even though I didn't think of it on a conscious level back then. That probably has a lot to do with why I never went WOW or Corps - it was hard enough just to be obedient on a twig level!!
With regard to the parental supervision, Eyes, my parents divorced when I was 8. My father was very busy building his career and had limited visitation with us anyway. My mother went back to school, worked, and eventually remarried only to lose my step-father to cancer a short time later. So, by the time she was done with school and somewhat done grieving (his loss really took a lot out of her - she pretty much disappeared inside herself for about 4 years) and remebered she had children, it was pretty much too late. I was 17 when she finally decided I needed some discipline and guidance in my life, at which point I was convinced I was all grown up, new everything, and was not going to stand for being treated like a child. I moved out when I was 1/2 way through my senior year.
That really sucks for all of you. It is hard on all of you when this type of thing happens.
I cannot imagine my childhood without my parents. My father was the bread winner my mom was a 'domestic engineer'. (gotta love the title! ) My parents were old school, real old school not like the gangsta crud they call old school today. My parents were born when life was good in America and then they fought a world war and saw what they had fought for take a serious downhill slide. The last major news my mom saw before she passed was 9/11. It made her sad, profoundly sad.
Unfortunately their grandchildren live a life similar to yours, parents divorced and for whatever reason they dont get the type of supervision that really nurtures a child. I hope they turn out as well as you sound like you have, minus the whole cult thing. I personally never could have children so the ones that I often claim were actually my ex's. I havent seen any of them in years and have only heard from one of them in the past two. They have no structure now either, but I cannot help that if they wont let me.
ROFLMAO - Obedience was definitely something that didn't come naturally to me!! I think somewhere inside I knew that, even though I didn't think of it on a conscious level back then. That probably has a lot to do with why I never went WOW or Corps - it was hard enough just to be obedient on a twig level!!
I was always the kid that did what she was told and was respectful of her elders and all of that so when the Corps came along and I got talked into going because it was the thing for me...well, I was obedient...and I'll never be blindly obedient to anyone again...except God but he's another subject.
I bet you were a pain in some unsuspecting TC's tail! That could have been fun to watch.
Unfortunately their grandchildren live a life similar to yours, parents divorced and for whatever reason they dont get the type of supervision that really nurtures a child. I hope they turn out as well as you sound like you have, minus the whole cult thing.
Minus the cult things, the drugs, the alcohol, the . . . . believe me, I made a tremendous number of mistakes before I got to this place in my life!! But it also shows me, it is never to pick yourself up, dust yourself off, start a new and turn your life around!!
I personally never could have children so the ones that I often claim were actually my ex's. I havent seen any of them in years and have only heard from one of them in the past two. They have no structure now either, but I cannot help that if they wont let me.
That is very sad, Eyes, for you and for them. My step brothers and sister pretty much fell off the face of the planet too, after my step-dad died. I did manage to track my step-sister down once, many years ago, and she gave me the brush off. I was actually trying to find my step-brother, who is apparently (or was) also looking for me. He tried to reach me through classmates, but I wasn't a paid for member and rarely go there. By the time I did a couple years have passed. I tried to reach him the same way, but so far have not had a response. :(
I bet you were a pain in some unsuspecting TC's tail! That could have been fun to watch.
I most certainly was for a few years. But then when the screws were clamped down in TWI and all the people I was closest to left, it became obvious I was fighting a losing battle. Add to that, I had my first son and was pregnant with my second . . . I guess the fight pretty much went out of me for a while.
I have long felt I needed personal testimony about the sexual abuse that is talked about so much on GS. I have been very skeptical on accepting everything that is talked about anonymously, second hand, third hand. I have had a few little clashes on this subject, most of which don't show up publically. There is a small handful of posters you could ask about this, one in particular whose answer got under my skin.
What I would hope that these few people would understand is how all the talk about cults and mind control has never hit it with me, because I had all that stuff shoved down my throat during my deprogramming. Understand you will, if you think of any of the stuff you have had shoved down your throat during your life, whether from TWI or elsewhere. I was told my deprogramming was needed because neither I nor anyone else would or could leave TWI on my own, our minds were so blocked off. That has obviously been shown to be untrue, as many have left of their own.
I remain convinced to this day that I would sooner or later have left on my own, as many others have.
Of course, my bad experiences in TWI were minimal, and I had quite a few good ones. I'll bring this up again soon as a very imprtant factor in things.
Not only did I not have the bad experiences, I was not abused as Kris was.
I approached Kris's book with a ready to accept but critical and skeptical eye. It is just as well that before I read the book, I did not read the comment on the back cover by Michael Langone... "Some books hel readers understand how cults work, how they manipulate, deceive, and exploit people. "Losing the Way" tells a story. It does not lecture. It shares. Enter her world, and share her soul." It was better that I read the book and found this out for myself. Whatever one thinks of the other books referred to in the beginning of this comment, FOR ME, the only thing that would be of value was such a bok as Kris's. I didn't really expect to find it, except I was given a good hint by the wonderful friend who got me the book, and who started this thread.
This book is purely her testimony, the testimony of a real live person, not an anonymous handle. the answer I refer to above that got under my skin was that I would not believe real personal testimony even if I had it. You know what? That doesnt get under my skin anymore, for a reason that this person and some others have recently given. Words can indeed be crafted to sound nice by anyone, and given the various types of skepticism and downright denial that this abuse even COULD have happened, I guess I wouldn't have believed me either. Neither have I (and knowing this person, I would never have) heard or seen this person say to me "Well there you have it, are you going to believe it now?" I have caimed to have "respect" for this person, but after reading Kris's book and dwelling on it a little, I can take the quotes off that word, put in in caps and apply it to some others around here.
But I in no way feel bound by my own words. Maybe I should, but I don't. It is just that Kristen's testimony goes "above and beyond" my standards.
It doesnt hurt, that I was in the 8th corps with her for a year at Emporia, even might have seen her during my apprentice year in Indiana. The fact that we didn't know each other well is almost immaterial. Just reading her describing some of the same events and tirades helps make her account even more real; even the much greater part of her account that takes place when I was not around.
There are a couple little things, I remember differently, but I have no problem with that. First of all, no one has my memory for scripture or past events. Sometimes I am a little weak on people, especially in the short term, but everything else is pretty doggone clear, even back that far. I was once "reprooved" sharply (but quietly and privately) by John T. at HQ for being able to memorize Romans through Thessalonians word for word, but not remembering my shadow appointment with him. So if Kris and I have some details different, I have no problem there.
But there are a couple of more imprtant reasons. I remember a lot of good things, so my slant on events is going to be different that what someone who suffered all that Kris did has. And along with this, if someone were abused as terribly as she was, they are goin g to remember that hurt a lot better than the myriad little details I can remember from that year. So I can uderstand if Kris doesn't joke about cutting those chickens' heads of and watching the rest of them flail around, as I have joked about on GS in times past.
That brings me to another point of understanding. I now can feel a little better how someone recalling fond memories from TWI can by recalling such fondness hurt someone like Kris or others who doesn't have such fond memories of the same times. I dont think anyone should be barred from recalling good times; no way. But I think any of us who do should think a little of those who may hurt. For example, let's restrain ourselves when we are tempted to respond to someone with "hey, I though things were really neat with that camping trip".; and if we still want to tell about it, save it for a time and place seperate from their testimony.
As for Kristen's testimony itself, I have no problems in the least accepting here accounts of abuse. And of course she makes it easier for others as well, because while I have long stated that I allow that it COULD have happened, now i really know that it DID.
Oh, I have had a couple of other little quarrels with people who seemed more ready than I was to accept that the abuse by VPW and others happened, but wanted to place half or nmore of the responsibility on the victim. I will continue to have differences and quarrels with those people, but you may see me become much more, say, active, in stating my opinion. I may be a male (may be???!!!), but I do know how we taught...OK, I'll say it, indoctrinated...to do anything the man of God said, because it had to be for God, otherwise we would lose His love. I never had that big a problem with it while I was in, because I was obviously never asked to do the things that Kris was.
Another thing...Kris was lin TWI much longer than I was, and it is interesting to see how far back this stuff goes.
So Kris has written the truest of testimonies. If anyone wants to deny this, they of course had better first read the book, then get readt to take on those of us who know it to be true.
I may have more to say, but that is enough for today.
I did fine one significant problem with her book, but it is really my fault. I am pretty doggone hard on paperbacks, even well constructed ones, when I carry them around a lot, so eventually I know I'll need another copy. But considering how much the first one cost me :) , I think i can swing it
I just received the book but haven't read it yet, looking forward to it.
The forward was written by Lorna Goldberg, M.S.W., L.C.S.W.
She wrote among other things:
Kristen was taught to "speak in tongues," and told that this hypnotic state was evidence of the Holy Spirit entering her life. ...
What hypnotic state? This is a manifestion of holy spirit that we the believer operate, we are in full control of our mental faculties. Stop and start at will. No hypnotism involved.
If she doesn't believe in it, fine. But to mischaracterize it with that bullsheet is annoying.
I just received the book but haven't read it yet, looking forward to it.
The forward was written by Lorna Greenberg, M.S.W., L.C.S.W.
She wrote among other things:
What hypnotic state? This is a manfestion of holy spirit that we the believer operate, we are in full control of our mental faculties. Stop and start at will. No hypnotism involved.
If she doesn't believe in it, fine. But to mischaracterize it with that bullsheet is annoying.
Yeah, a lot of stuff in life is annoying... I could probably list 50 things without stopping for lunch, and 51 of them might be true facts.
One thing that I find kind of amusing is the time-period and description of mayhem and disarray among those early NY "believers". I'm sure not all of you will be amused but . . . .
During the time period that the book is written about, I wasn't even in high school yet and had never heard of TWI. By the time I did get involved with TWI, everything was whitewashed and pristine. Way posters framed and hung on walls, homes polished to a shine most "worldly" mothers could only dream of achieving. Children sitting quietly, entertaining themselves (or at least too afraid to voice an objection) while the adults held fellowship.
It was definitely "Stepfordville" by the time I got involved. Of course, I am not sure if I would have stuck around if things had been as they were "back in the day." I was already living in chaos and clutter and was desperately searching for structure and order.
Well, they do say, sometimes when you are trying to find balance, you end up first going to the opposite extreme
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Lifted Up
I see some connections here, even though I somehow dont feel too comfy discussing this, even though Kris has told about it. A child who is molested can be confused, knowing it doesn't feel right, but
potato
I'm gonna pass on clicking the link because I remember ck too well now, but I encourage newcomers to do so. ck's writing is a good example of what happens to your brain when you make a man into a god.
Lifted Up
Exactly the reasons why I for many years felt my experience in corps my final corps residence year didn't mean anything...very mild in comparison, the people involved were good, etc).
Belle
Abi, I'm interested in ordering two copies of the book - one for me and one for the therapist that I had for years after leaving TWI. I'm trying to find the link for the book through Amazon that gives credit to Paw for purchasing through GSpot -- I can not find it, though I'm certain it is under my nose.
Can someone please post that link?
I'd like very much to order two copies and I'm going to ask my therapist to give his perceptions/thoughts/whatnot given Kristen's book and his years with me. I'm really looking forward to reading the book. I'm only partially through the first GSpot Radio interview and hope to finish the rest soon.
I will say, based on your post here that, being raised in a middle class/upper middle class family, the fact that everyone I first came in contact with was people of the same class gave credence to their teachings of "the more abundant life". Had I been exposed primarily (as I later was) to people who were mostly struggling to make ends meet, I am pretty sure that those initial claims of "the more abundant life" would have sent me away laughing my arse off. By the time I recognized the difference between what they were teaching and what the people were living, I was so brain dead or conditioned not to question things that I justified it some how.
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Abigail
If you go to the "front page" or "home page" you will find a spot (I think it is on the left hand side toward the bottom but my memory may be fuzzy on that) where you can search amazon from Greasespot. That is what I used to order the books and in both instances I had them in less than 5 days.
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Ham
I was looking for family also.
At this point, I think what they promised was an illusion..
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Ham
The interesting thing.. with few exceptions.. I think our little "coming out".. little bid for independance.. was fraught with doubt..
it doesn't exactly agree with scripture as such..
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Avondale
What struck me the most was the sexual promiscuity BEFRORE TWI. Although I was certainly surprised at her young age. I "found the Way" in 1973 and one reason I was searching was that I knew I was headed in the wrong direction with drugs and sex (just didn't care about the person, it was just something physical) and I knew this was wrong. I went to my first twig leader, a very good looking young fellow, and "counseled" with him about my lifestyle, etc and "what does the Word say" about all this? I was really looking for answers. Yup, you guessed it, before the counseling session was done I was in bed with my first twig leader (this was before I took PFAL....does that count?
What gets me is that I stayed for 15 YEARS!!! No more sleeping with twig leaders...oh, well there was just that one other (and he was married with 5 kids) I guess the message came across load and clear from day one that it didn't really matter.
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Dot Matrix
Abi I do not see the Amazon link on the home page
Anyone else have the link?
I just do not see it
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Abigail
Dot - CLICK HERE
Then look to the right under Recent GS Radio Episodes and you will see
Amazon.com
Search
Sexual promiscuity at an early age is very common among girls who have been molested.
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oldiesman
Go to www.greasespotcafe.com, you'll see the box "search amazon.com" in the bottom right corner, type "losing the way" in keywords box.
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now I see
Interesting story Avondale, you had a bumpy start.
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Abigail
I guess for me, reading this book, I see so very many parallels to my own life. Certainly we had vastly different experiences with TWI in many respects. She was in and out before I was even in high school. BUT, as I re-read chapter 1, I am struck by this 14-year-old girl hanging out at "John Pope's" house, no parents around. She is biking across town to party with college kids. Where is the parental supervision?
I think I was 13 the first time I ever went to a frat party. I was 11 or 12 when I was introduced to cigarettes, alcohol, and pot. I have an older brother and step-brother to thank for that. :)
I got soooo sick at that frat party! We were drinking beer and wine and smoking hash. The room flipped completely upside down and I grabbed the couch so I wouldn't hit the ceiling. Man, was I sick. My girlfriends finally managed to get me home, in between bouts of barfing.
I walked into our apartment and my step-dad was in bed - he was sick, he had cancer and was going through chemo or radiation. I opened the fridge door to get a piece of bread because my step-brother had told me once that if you thought you were going to puke you should eat something. Well, I got sick all over the kitchen floor right in front of the fridge. My step dad heard me at that point. He told me my mom was out looking for me and asked me if I had been drinking. I admitted I was. He told me to clean up my mess.
That was pretty much the end of it. I don't recall my mom even discussing it with me.
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excathedra
sorry, avondale, that stinks
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Eyesopen
Wow Abi if I had done that as a child I would have gotten my own switch, if you know what I mean but then again I wouldnt have been at the party in the first place. I kind of came from a different lifestyle than you or Kristen so in that area I saw no paralells with my own life.
The thing that stuck out for me was the mindset once we were in. The insidious cancer thinking that kept me doubting myself and yet always wanting more to correct the doubt. It was a horribly sick circle. The line that a person wasnt spiritually mature enough for whatever was a great hook to keep a person going to more classes and repeating the same ole stuff over and over thinking that somehow you missed something because the MOG keeps saying I'm not spiritually mature. What a crock!
I know that they really used the whole believing and spiritually mature stuff a lot on the 16th and to some extent on the 14th Corps. We were in res when the great Man of God for our day and time died of devil spirit possession! Oh holy cow did we drop the ball somewhere. He died on our watch because our believing didnt protect him!
Anyway Kristen really showed the entire Corps thinking mind set that kept us from questioning, kept us in and kept us under their thumb.
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Abigail
She certainly did! I have never been able to explain that part of it to anyone, I guess in many ways I didn't truly understand it myself, but when I read Kristen's book it all fell into place and made sense.
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Abigail
With regard to the parental supervision, Eyes, my parents divorced when I was 8. My father was very busy building his career and had limited visitation with us anyway. My mother went back to school, worked, and eventually remarried only to lose my step-father to cancer a short time later. So, by the time she was done with school and somewhat done grieving (his loss really took a lot out of her - she pretty much disappeared inside herself for about 4 years) and remebered she had children, it was pretty much too late. I was 17 when she finally decided I needed some discipline and guidance in my life, at which point I was convinced I was all grown up, new everything, and was not going to stand for being treated like a child. I moved out when I was 1/2 way through my senior year.
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Eyesopen
Yes it did and I really loved the way that she said some of the things. Some of it even sounded 'logical' for that split moment before I remembered what year it was...
My roommate said something to me yesterday that really kind of made me mad...because she was right...I was good in the Corps because I was obedient, not because I was spiritual, or called, or gifted, but obedient. When I ceased being obedient they told me to leave. That just p!sses me off!
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Abigail
ROFLMAO - Obedience was definitely something that didn't come naturally to me!! I think somewhere inside I knew that, even though I didn't think of it on a conscious level back then. That probably has a lot to do with why I never went WOW or Corps - it was hard enough just to be obedient on a twig level!!
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Eyesopen
That really sucks for all of you. It is hard on all of you when this type of thing happens.
I cannot imagine my childhood without my parents. My father was the bread winner my mom was a 'domestic engineer'. (gotta love the title!
) My parents were old school, real old school not like the gangsta crud they call old school today. My parents were born when life was good in America and then they fought a world war and saw what they had fought for take a serious downhill slide. The last major news my mom saw before she passed was 9/11. It made her sad, profoundly sad.
Unfortunately their grandchildren live a life similar to yours, parents divorced and for whatever reason they dont get the type of supervision that really nurtures a child. I hope they turn out as well as you sound like you have, minus the whole cult thing.
I personally never could have children so the ones that I often claim were actually my ex's. I havent seen any of them in years and have only heard from one of them in the past two. They have no structure now either, but I cannot help that if they wont let me.
I was always the kid that did what she was told and was respectful of her elders and all of that so when the Corps came along and I got talked into going because it was the thing for me...well, I was obedient...and I'll never be blindly obedient to anyone again...except God but he's another subject.
I bet you were a pain in some unsuspecting TC's tail! That could have been fun to watch.
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Abigail
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Lifted Up
I have long felt I needed personal testimony about the sexual abuse that is talked about so much on GS. I have been very skeptical on accepting everything that is talked about anonymously, second hand, third hand. I have had a few little clashes on this subject, most of which don't show up publically. There is a small handful of posters you could ask about this, one in particular whose answer got under my skin.
What I would hope that these few people would understand is how all the talk about cults and mind control has never hit it with me, because I had all that stuff shoved down my throat during my deprogramming. Understand you will, if you think of any of the stuff you have had shoved down your throat during your life, whether from TWI or elsewhere. I was told my deprogramming was needed because neither I nor anyone else would or could leave TWI on my own, our minds were so blocked off. That has obviously been shown to be untrue, as many have left of their own.
I remain convinced to this day that I would sooner or later have left on my own, as many others have.
Of course, my bad experiences in TWI were minimal, and I had quite a few good ones. I'll bring this up again soon as a very imprtant factor in things.
Not only did I not have the bad experiences, I was not abused as Kris was.
I approached Kris's book with a ready to accept but critical and skeptical eye. It is just as well that before I read the book, I did not read the comment on the back cover by Michael Langone... "Some books hel readers understand how cults work, how they manipulate, deceive, and exploit people. "Losing the Way" tells a story. It does not lecture. It shares. Enter her world, and share her soul." It was better that I read the book and found this out for myself. Whatever one thinks of the other books referred to in the beginning of this comment, FOR ME, the only thing that would be of value was such a bok as Kris's. I didn't really expect to find it, except I was given a good hint by the wonderful friend who got me the book, and who started this thread.
This book is purely her testimony, the testimony of a real live person, not an anonymous handle. the answer I refer to above that got under my skin was that I would not believe real personal testimony even if I had it. You know what? That doesnt get under my skin anymore, for a reason that this person and some others have recently given. Words can indeed be crafted to sound nice by anyone, and given the various types of skepticism and downright denial that this abuse even COULD have happened, I guess I wouldn't have believed me either. Neither have I (and knowing this person, I would never have) heard or seen this person say to me "Well there you have it, are you going to believe it now?" I have caimed to have "respect" for this person, but after reading Kris's book and dwelling on it a little, I can take the quotes off that word, put in in caps and apply it to some others around here.
But I in no way feel bound by my own words. Maybe I should, but I don't. It is just that Kristen's testimony goes "above and beyond" my standards.
It doesnt hurt, that I was in the 8th corps with her for a year at Emporia, even might have seen her during my apprentice year in Indiana. The fact that we didn't know each other well is almost immaterial. Just reading her describing some of the same events and tirades helps make her account even more real; even the much greater part of her account that takes place when I was not around.
There are a couple little things, I remember differently, but I have no problem with that. First of all, no one has my memory for scripture or past events. Sometimes I am a little weak on people, especially in the short term, but everything else is pretty doggone clear, even back that far. I was once "reprooved" sharply (but quietly and privately) by John T. at HQ for being able to memorize Romans through Thessalonians word for word, but not remembering my shadow appointment with him. So if Kris and I have some details different, I have no problem there.
But there are a couple of more imprtant reasons. I remember a lot of good things, so my slant on events is going to be different that what someone who suffered all that Kris did has. And along with this, if someone were abused as terribly as she was, they are goin g to remember that hurt a lot better than the myriad little details I can remember from that year. So I can uderstand if Kris doesn't joke about cutting those chickens' heads of and watching the rest of them flail around, as I have joked about on GS in times past.
That brings me to another point of understanding. I now can feel a little better how someone recalling fond memories from TWI can by recalling such fondness hurt someone like Kris or others who doesn't have such fond memories of the same times. I dont think anyone should be barred from recalling good times; no way. But I think any of us who do should think a little of those who may hurt. For example, let's restrain ourselves when we are tempted to respond to someone with "hey, I though things were really neat with that camping trip".; and if we still want to tell about it, save it for a time and place seperate from their testimony.
As for Kristen's testimony itself, I have no problems in the least accepting here accounts of abuse. And of course she makes it easier for others as well, because while I have long stated that I allow that it COULD have happened, now i really know that it DID.
Oh, I have had a couple of other little quarrels with people who seemed more ready than I was to accept that the abuse by VPW and others happened, but wanted to place half or nmore of the responsibility on the victim. I will continue to have differences and quarrels with those people, but you may see me become much more, say, active, in stating my opinion. I may be a male (may be???!!!), but I do know how we taught...OK, I'll say it, indoctrinated...to do anything the man of God said, because it had to be for God, otherwise we would lose His love. I never had that big a problem with it while I was in, because I was obviously never asked to do the things that Kris was.
Another thing...Kris was lin TWI much longer than I was, and it is interesting to see how far back this stuff goes.
So Kris has written the truest of testimonies. If anyone wants to deny this, they of course had better first read the book, then get readt to take on those of us who know it to be true.
I may have more to say, but that is enough for today.
I did fine one significant problem with her book, but it is really my fault. I am pretty doggone hard on paperbacks, even well constructed ones, when I carry them around a lot, so eventually I know I'll need another copy. But considering how much the first one cost me :) , I think i can swing it
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Abigail
(((Lifted))))
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oldiesman
I just received the book but haven't read it yet, looking forward to it.
The forward was written by Lorna Goldberg, M.S.W., L.C.S.W.
She wrote among other things:
What hypnotic state? This is a manifestion of holy spirit that we the believer operate, we are in full control of our mental faculties. Stop and start at will. No hypnotism involved.
If she doesn't believe in it, fine. But to mischaracterize it with that bullsheet is annoying.
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Belle
(((((Lifted)))))
Thanks a bunch Abi and Eyes. I'm enjoying your posts while I await my copy.
Thank you Avondale and others for sharing, too! :)
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Rocky
Yeah, a lot of stuff in life is annoying... I could probably list 50 things without stopping for lunch, and 51 of them might be true facts.
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Abigail
One thing that I find kind of amusing is the time-period and description of mayhem and disarray among those early NY "believers". I'm sure not all of you will be amused but . . . .
During the time period that the book is written about, I wasn't even in high school yet and had never heard of TWI. By the time I did get involved with TWI, everything was whitewashed and pristine. Way posters framed and hung on walls, homes polished to a shine most "worldly" mothers could only dream of achieving. Children sitting quietly, entertaining themselves (or at least too afraid to voice an objection) while the adults held fellowship.
It was definitely "Stepfordville" by the time I got involved. Of course, I am not sure if I would have stuck around if things had been as they were "back in the day." I was already living in chaos and clutter and was desperately searching for structure and order.
Well, they do say, sometimes when you are trying to find balance, you end up first going to the opposite extreme
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