You know those clean pristine 'dont sit on the furniture' homes just annoy me. Our house was always clean but we could sit on the couch and pet the cat if we wanted. My first TC tried to get my parents to get rid of our pets and when they told him to take a flying leap he tried to have mom move the bird into the bedroom during twig because Buzzy liked to sing when we were singing and he often told the tc to 'shut up'. Because that's what the tc said to him. Turn about is fair play in a parakeet world.
You know those clean pristine 'dont sit on the furniture' homes just annoy me. Our house was always clean but we could sit on the couch and pet the cat if we wanted. My first TC tried to get my parents to get rid of our pets and when they told him to take a flying leap he tried to have mom move the bird into the bedroom during twig because Buzzy liked to sing when we were singing and he often told the tc to 'shut up'. Because that's what the tc said to him. Turn about is fair play in a parakeet world.
You know those clean pristine 'dont sit on the furniture' homes just annoy me. Our house was always clean but we could sit on the couch and pet the cat if we wanted. My first TC tried to get my parents to get rid of our pets and when they told him to take a flying leap he tried to have mom move the bird into the bedroom during twig because Buzzy liked to sing when we were singing and he often told the tc to 'shut up'. Because that's what the tc said to him. Turn about is fair play in a parakeet world.
My ex's grandmother had a parakeet that could make a sailor blush. Wonder where it learned such language
One thing that I find kind of amusing is the time-period and description of mayhem and disarray among those early NY "believers". I'm sure not all of you will be amused but . . . .
During the time period that the book is written about, I wasn't even in high school yet and had never heard of TWI. By the time I did get involved with TWI, everything was whitewashed and pristine. Way posters framed and hung on walls, homes polished to a shine most "worldly" mothers could only dream of achieving. Children sitting quietly, entertaining themselves (or at least too afraid to voice an objection) while the adults held fellowship.
It was definitely "Stepfordville" by the time I got involved. Of course, I am not sure if I would have stuck around if things had been as they were "back in the day." I was already living in chaos and clutter and was desperately searching for structure and order.
Well, they do say, sometimes when you are trying to find balance, you end up first going to the opposite extreme
My understanding-which may be corrected by those who were there and is based on the posts here-
is that to really count twi attendance and "fellowship", one has to start counting after
vpw went to Haight-Ashbury and the House of Acts and began hijacking the hippies.
The early 1970s had the membership composed almost entirely of hippies and young folk,
and it was very relaxed and low-key.
The organization of the home fellowships started a few years later, when vpw had the young folk
coming to him for "training", and they started walking around in suits and carrying briefcases.
L0nnie Fr1sbee was named as one of the early people who changed that way, and it's been
cited as the beginning of replacing those early, no-rules groups with regimented, orderly "twigs."
If that's true, it certainly dovetails with how things went. The more time passed, the more
people who were trained by vpw (and twi in general) on-site, and the more the rules were
spread with them when they left, and the more the rules were made into practice, then policy.
Now, the group's so rules-oriented compared to the early 1970s, the original twi'ers would barely
recognize the group, and that's across a few scant decades.
You know those clean pristine 'dont sit on the furniture' homes just annoy me. Our house was always clean but we could sit on the couch and pet the cat if we wanted. My first TC tried to get my parents to get rid of our pets and when they told him to take a flying leap he tried to have mom move the bird into the bedroom during twig because Buzzy liked to sing when we were singing and he often told the tc to 'shut up'. Because that's what the tc said to him. Turn about is fair play in a parakeet world.
When got involved in '71 or '72 (I don't know why I can never remember which), twigs were held in homes, in parks, in cars or wherever. But, it was not as chaotic as it sounds. Part of what we were taught to do was direct the attention away from the mechanics of organization. Things were supposed to appear spontaneous and low key. There was even a written manual that went into great detail about organizing and conducting a branch-sized meeting. If you were setting up chairs or running extension cords, you were supposed to do it in a nonchalant manner that would not cause attention to be directed to the work you were doing. There was some sort of theory that if you looked like you were working, the students would feel guilty. I still find myself doing this at company Christmas parties and such. I casually rearrange tables and chairs, haul away trash, etc. all within plain sight but without calling attention to myself. Suddenly, the room can transform without anyone giving it a thought. It's pretty good stuff as far as theatrical productions go but what are its limits in a fellowship setting? Dunno.
BTW--- One of my favorite lines from the manual was the admonition, "Don't pick your seat."
Pinky swear---That's exactly what it said.
Well, of course, it meant you weren't supposed to sit in the middle of row three with all your pals and have a good time.
You were supposed to sit near the back of the room where you would be free to get up at a moment's notice and do whatever needed to be done.
Still, I always get a chuckle out of the ambiguity with which it was written.
WW, I got into twi in 1972, in the same area where Waysider was. Twi was already organized into the way tree structure, with "twigs, branches, and limbs." I can confirm what Waysider says, that it wasn't particularly chaotic, although you're right, it was a lot more casual and relaxed than it became later.
The first twig I attended met in a local park because the twig leader's parents wouldn't let him have it in their home. Sometimes we met at people's homes, though. I recall hosting it in my parents' back yard at least once. Branch meetings were held weekly in a rented American Legion hall.
Although young people were definitely in the majority, quite a few adults were involved in our area by the early 70s. A lot of adults were in fellowships around HQ, too, with their entire families. John Shr*yer's family comes to mind, and the Hearnes and several others. Some of them had come with VPW from Van Wert when he left the church there.
I didn't see the suit-wearing, briefcase-toting types in any great numbers until near the end of the 70s. I have a good friend, born and raised in New Knoxville, who quit going to HQ when Sunday morning fellowships ceased to be simply "teaching the Word under the apple trees" and when the suits began to appear.
I didn't see the suit-wearing, briefcase-toting types in any great numbers until near the end of the 70s. I have a good friend, born and raised in New Knoxville, who quit going to HQ when Sunday morning fellowships ceased to be simply "teaching the Word under the apple trees" and when the suits began to appear.
Unfortunately I saw a lot of the suit wearing bible thumpers that always complained when the local folk just wanted a real bbq and not a rented, bought in the store, 'decent and in order' dinner. I really hated it when they would try to turn a day in the park into an afternoon and evening in a stuffy rented 'room' with lots of sitting an listening to them talk. I can see why some folks stopped going.
Jesus taught under the olive tree and people heard him and got healed. He didnt wear a suit that I'm aware of so why did twi think that this was the way to go?
I should have taken the bottom off of ole Buzzy's cage or just let him out. He might have made some lovely decoration on Mr. Perfects pressed silk shirt. But then his poor wife would have had to clean it.
Regarding my earlier post and my comments about my deprogramming...before I read her book, I would have thought I would have experienced great relief that Kris being "rescued", a term that has often been applied to deprogramming, did not mean that...but that she was really rescued as she was by someone who loved her. Back in, I think it was January, I meade some sharp comment somewhere, it might have been on Kris's blog, that I did not in the least consider myself rescued by my deprogramming. My view on that has not changed...for me. But after reading her account of multple and long time abuse, if that is what it had taken to get her out, and if I had found that out at the end of the book, I simply would have been relieved for her. How her life and family relationships would have turned out if that was what got her out is up for grabs I guess; and since it is not my life, I sure wont speculate about it.
Well, now, myself, my wife, and her sister have all read Kris' book - all without basically putting it down. Sister in law mentioned her own abuse (it would rate as criminal) in addition to other equally criminal cases she personally knows about -- by a different figure right next to Victor. Two of these, she's never mentioned before.
Well, now, myself, my wife, and her sister have all read Kris' book - all without basically putting it down. Sister in law mentioned her own abuse (it would rate as criminal) in addition to other equally criminal cases she personally knows about -- by a different figure right next to Victor. Two of these, she's never mentioned before.
Interesting how the cleansing of one person's soul onto paper has caused others to find a kind of similar type of desire and ability to cleanse their own soul.
My roomate who was never in twi but had the unfortunate misadventure of living with a twi fanatic for six years also took the time to read Kris's book. She devoured the thing. When she was done she told me that now she understood how her previous 'roomie' had similarily brainwashed her from day one even to the extent of telling her that if she ever moved out she would be damning herself to the pits of hell. The abuses inflicted upon her were also criminal. But with some of what Kris shared about the thought processes involved with certain teachings she believes that she better understands how she was abused and can now start to making more positive changes to facilitate healing.
I think this book gives a tremendous amount of insight into the thought processes of someone who had been abused. It is something that would be difficult to understand if you haven't walked in those shoes, but Kristen has done an excellent job of telling it!!!
I kinda of wanted to move into that topic as the next part of the book discussion, where she talks a bit about being molested and her early experimentation with sexuality. I'm just not sure how to proceed with it, how to do it justice.
I kinda of wanted to move into that topic as the next part of the book discussion, where she talks a bit about being molested and her early experimentation with sexuality. I'm just not sure how to proceed with it, how to do it justice.
I see some connections here, even though I somehow dont feel too comfy discussing this, even though Kris has told about it. A child who is molested can be confused, knowing it doesn't feel right, but not tell anyone because of 1) shame, and 2) the person commiting the act had never done anything bad to her/him before. A young adult can have the same feelings, the main difference being the authority figure commiting the act is a trusted man of God, so it must be right.
In either case, it is something that should be understood by anyone who is tempted to gripe about the victim waiting years before telling about the abuse, if he or she can ever overcome these feelings enough to ever tell about it. I am sure there are quite a few people waiting in line to tell the next person who makes that gripe a thing or two, but I'll get in that line.
Well said, Lifted. And I will take it a step further. Shame, yes, is a big part of it. But for a little kid - especially a little kid who has been abused and neglected (and preditors are soooo very good at picking out the kids who have been abused and neglected) it is more than just shame. Mixed with that shame - causing that shame to be even greater, is the thrill that someone has finally noticed you exist. So yeah, there is a feeling that what is going on is wrong and that causes shame. There is also a feeling of being happy that someone knows you exist and on some level that happy feeling over something you know is wrong makes the shame oh so very much worse.
Well said, Lifted. And I will take it a step further. Shame, yes, is a big part of it. But for a little kid - especially a little kid who has been abused and neglected (and preditors are soooo very good at picking out the kids who have been abused and neglected) it is more than just shame. Mixed with that shame - causing that shame to be even greater, is the thrill that someone has finally noticed you exist. So yeah, there is a feeling that what is going on is wrong and that causes shame. There is also a feeling of being happy that someone knows you exist and on some level that happy feeling over something you know is wrong makes the shame oh so very much worse.
This sounds like the proverbial 'any kind of attention is better than none at all'. I have been told that sometimes the abused allow it to continue even when they know it is wrong because they believe that the person abusing them is really doing it out of love. Another aspect is when the abuser convinces the abused that they are the ones causing the problem. I cant tell you how many times I have heard a battered wife say 'I deserved it'. Of course I've kind of dropped into the realm of physical abuse as well as mental, but I would think that on some level sexual abuse is similar. I have heard some people use the defense that 'she asked for it by the way she was dressed' or worse 'she asked for it by being so pretty'. I heard a father say that about his thirteen year old daughter once.
A friend who is an elder in the same (Presbyterian) church I go to is reading Losing the Way. Here is what she says,
I've been reading the book you loaned me. I'm about 3/4 of the way through, which is record time for me to read a book, but this one has totally captured me. I've never been part of the Way and yet it feels so familiar to me.
She had an abusive, alcoholic, authoritarian father.
I just started her book. I grew up in Rye, then moved to Larchmont. New Rochelle, Larchmont, Mamaroneck, Rye and other towns are all right next to each other on the Boston Post Road which goes up to Boston. They are NYC "bedroom" boroughs. In Larchmont, we were 20 minutes away from the City by train. I was also a "groovy" Christian of Rye.
What astounds me so far is her description of what it was like in NY back then during the "hippie" revolution. Like her, I too had an alcoholic father, many of us kids did. I think being "organization men" of the '50s, doing their rote corporate jobs, unwinding in the drinking cars on the train on the way home from work in the City, took a toll on many men.
We were little kids, so many of us raised ourselves, dad drunk when he was home, mom, distant - so many of us kids were on our own at a young age. We did cut school and hop the train into the city with our buddies to hang in Tompkins Square park, our older brothers and sisters did drive us to the city, we did basically what we wanted. Many kids rarely saw their parents 'cause the parents were always out, traveling - that one kid's house that was being renovated, parents in Spain - definitely happened alot. We travelled in little gangs.
Oh yeah, the boys did get us girls too. Whether it was walking home from school as a 7 year old and being dragged in the woods and molested by the older neighborhood boys, later as a teenager being drug into the new houses being built and forced to do things, or avoiding the neighborhood bully - there was always one, or my best friend's older brother who would lock us into the bathroom together. When I told his mom, why, her little Brian would never do that... Kids are so much more protected nowadays in many ways.
I guess my point is, we were so ripe for the pickin'. Here came the father figure with the offer of the godly family who really loved you. Hanging at someone's apartment in the City, but this time as part of a loving group, with the older kids - really, it just didn't get any cooler.
What an amazing intro, she captures the times and feel so well. We were so young, on our own, searching.
I ended up with TWI because of one of my high school buddies. But everytime I see a Hare Krishna, I think, there but for the grace of God go I. Hare Krishna would come to my high school, I loved them, they were wonderful people. My mom gave me permission to go to their temple in Brooklyn. I forgot to get directions - there was no internet back then to look them up with. Plus, I couldn't get any of my friends to go with me. I have a feeling, if I had made it to the temple, I would have become a devout Krishna member. I'm looking forward to reading more. This first part just really hit home. It was so incredibly, eerily similar to my situation.
(QUOTE):We were little kids, so many of us raised ourselves, dad drunk when he was home, mom, distant - so many of us kids were on our own at a young age. We did cut school and hop the train into the city with our buddies to hang in Tompkins Square park, our older brothers and sisters did drive us to the city, we did basically what we wanted. Many kids rarely saw their parents 'cause the parents were always out, traveling - that one kid's house that was being renovated, parents in Spain - definitely happened alot. We travelled in little gangs.
I guess my point is, we were so ripe for the pickin'. Here came the father figure with the offer of the godly family who really loved you. Hanging at someone's apartment in the City, but this time as part of a loving group, with the older kids - really, it just didn't get any cooler.
What an amazing intro, she captures the times and feel so well. We were so young, on our own, searching.
WOW - after 35 years it's starting to make sense. Just A WEEK AGO a friend asked me why I think I wound up in a cult. It's been something I've been trying to figure out since 1986 when I left. My family thought it was because I broke up with a boyfriend of 4 years - I knew that wasn't the reason.
I was the "older sibling" going into the City, etc., raising myself and my siblings. I was a "groovy christian" from the Bronx - about 25 miles south of Rye in 1973 - just missing the Dr. driving into town on his Harley days (which, of course, we all heard about - it was a legend)
Thanks Sunesis - I believe that's it - the father figure that was missing. My father was not an alcoholic (although my mother probably was in those days, it was hard to tell - with the scotch on the rocks every night. It was "normal". BUT my father was Manic Depressive, hospitalized about every 3 years. My sister was Schizophrenic and committed suicide in 1967 at the age of 18 (I was 17 at the time). I was always SO proud of myself for NOT being mentally Ill in this mentally ill family so denied for a very LONG time that the Way was a cult, as that would make me less on a strong, independent person to join something like that.
Well, we all know how that happens because we all have our own stories and reasons. But I think I'm finally seeing that I really needed that father figure or even more so, stabalization and focus in my life at that time. And what do you know.....there was "The Way".
Thanks Kristen for the help and insight you are givng to the rest of us, along with(I'm sure) you're own healing.
I agree Avondale, TWI offered us a safe haven in those chaotic times. Kris made another wonderful statement in her book when she said, "They [her parents] raised me liberally, without doctrine or structures...but their lack of directedness had an unintended consequence. I looked for another anchor, one stronger and steadier than myself or my parents."
That to me so beautifully sums up why so many of us got into TWI. We were without structure (me and most of my friends anyway) and were looking for an anchor - TWI, the Word, offered that safe harbor.
I finally finished her book. I found it excellent. I recommend it. She shares her thoughts, what was going on in her mind the whole time. For anyone wondering, what happened????!!! How did we end up there? She articulates is wonderfully.
One other thing she said interested me. I know in many religions, especially in ancient times, you had the "mystery" religions. Where the regular people were taught one thing, but the special "initiates" were initiated into the deepest mysteries - only a select few could handle it. After he finally gets her in bed after explaining grace, etc. she writes "the Doctor has ushered me nto the deeper mystery of the Word, where grace reigns supreme.... I am initiated." The great depths of the Word, according to VP - adultry is good, because grace reigns supreme. We can do anything - because grace reigns supreme.
Does not Paul in Romans and other places say, do not use grace as an excuse to sin? I just found it interesting - for the "top" most "spiritual" people in TWI, the great deep, secret wasn't Christ - it was sex. It was all about sex.
I agree Avondale, TWI offered us a safe haven in those chaotic times. Kris made another wonderful statement in her book when she said, "They [her parents] raised me liberally, without doctrine or structures...but their lack of directedness had an unintended consequence. I looked for another anchor, one stronger and steadier than myself or my parents."
One of the great tenants of parenthood is to give your kids boundaries, structure. Children thrive on boundaries. Those of us who grew up without it thought it was great! (some of us anyway). Look at all the freedom we had, we could do anything we wanted. Our parents really didn't care where we were all night, who we were hanging out with or would just accept our made up stories.
As I said my sister comitted sucide in 1967. From 1966 to 1973 (when I first took PFAL) I did every drug I could find and slept with every guy I could. Why not, I had no boundaries. I told the story earlier that when I went to my first twig leader to ask what the word says about sex because I knew I should change my life according to what the word said - he had me in bed by the end of the "counseling session". STILL, I knew that was wrong. I really see that the desire for a father figure along with the strong desire for "boundaries and structure" drew us to the Way. Ironically, however, they would preach that we were "free". Not like the organized religions where we would have to kneel at certain times, chant at certain times, etc. etc. WE had free will. There's a lot here to think about.
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Lifted Up
I see some connections here, even though I somehow dont feel too comfy discussing this, even though Kris has told about it. A child who is molested can be confused, knowing it doesn't feel right, but
potato
I'm gonna pass on clicking the link because I remember ck too well now, but I encourage newcomers to do so. ck's writing is a good example of what happens to your brain when you make a man into a god.
Lifted Up
Exactly the reasons why I for many years felt my experience in corps my final corps residence year didn't mean anything...very mild in comparison, the people involved were good, etc).
Eyesopen
You know those clean pristine 'dont sit on the furniture' homes just annoy me. Our house was always clean but we could sit on the couch and pet the cat if we wanted. My first TC tried to get my parents to get rid of our pets and when they told him to take a flying leap he tried to have mom move the bird into the bedroom during twig because Buzzy liked to sing when we were singing and he often told the tc to 'shut up'. Because that's what the tc said to him. Turn about is fair play in a parakeet world.
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Rocky
How precious! ;)
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WordWolf
It is "mischaracterization", and it is "annoying".
I'll even add "tiresome", although I usually reserve that term for when I have to keep
dealing with the SAME mischaracterization over and over, ad nauseum.
That having been said, once the foreward's completed and you're actually
reading what the author said, how have you found the book?
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Abigail
My ex's grandmother had a parakeet that could make a sailor blush. Wonder where it learned such language
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WordWolf
My understanding-which may be corrected by those who were there and is based on the posts here-
is that to really count twi attendance and "fellowship", one has to start counting after
vpw went to Haight-Ashbury and the House of Acts and began hijacking the hippies.
The early 1970s had the membership composed almost entirely of hippies and young folk,
and it was very relaxed and low-key.
The organization of the home fellowships started a few years later, when vpw had the young folk
coming to him for "training", and they started walking around in suits and carrying briefcases.
L0nnie Fr1sbee was named as one of the early people who changed that way, and it's been
cited as the beginning of replacing those early, no-rules groups with regimented, orderly "twigs."
If that's true, it certainly dovetails with how things went. The more time passed, the more
people who were trained by vpw (and twi in general) on-site, and the more the rules were
spread with them when they left, and the more the rules were made into practice, then policy.
Now, the group's so rules-oriented compared to the early 1970s, the original twi'ers would barely
recognize the group, and that's across a few scant decades.
Sounds like the guy learned to dish it out....
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waysider
WW
When got involved in '71 or '72 (I don't know why I can never remember which), twigs were held in homes, in parks, in cars or wherever. But, it was not as chaotic as it sounds. Part of what we were taught to do was direct the attention away from the mechanics of organization. Things were supposed to appear spontaneous and low key. There was even a written manual that went into great detail about organizing and conducting a branch-sized meeting. If you were setting up chairs or running extension cords, you were supposed to do it in a nonchalant manner that would not cause attention to be directed to the work you were doing. There was some sort of theory that if you looked like you were working, the students would feel guilty. I still find myself doing this at company Christmas parties and such. I casually rearrange tables and chairs, haul away trash, etc. all within plain sight but without calling attention to myself. Suddenly, the room can transform without anyone giving it a thought. It's pretty good stuff as far as theatrical productions go but what are its limits in a fellowship setting? Dunno.
BTW--- One of my favorite lines from the manual was the admonition, "Don't pick your seat."
Pinky swear---That's exactly what it said.
Well, of course, it meant you weren't supposed to sit in the middle of row three with all your pals and have a good time.
You were supposed to sit near the back of the room where you would be free to get up at a moment's notice and do whatever needed to be done.
Still, I always get a chuckle out of the ambiguity with which it was written.
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Linda Z
WW, I got into twi in 1972, in the same area where Waysider was. Twi was already organized into the way tree structure, with "twigs, branches, and limbs." I can confirm what Waysider says, that it wasn't particularly chaotic, although you're right, it was a lot more casual and relaxed than it became later.
The first twig I attended met in a local park because the twig leader's parents wouldn't let him have it in their home. Sometimes we met at people's homes, though. I recall hosting it in my parents' back yard at least once. Branch meetings were held weekly in a rented American Legion hall.
Although young people were definitely in the majority, quite a few adults were involved in our area by the early 70s. A lot of adults were in fellowships around HQ, too, with their entire families. John Shr*yer's family comes to mind, and the Hearnes and several others. Some of them had come with VPW from Van Wert when he left the church there.
I didn't see the suit-wearing, briefcase-toting types in any great numbers until near the end of the 70s. I have a good friend, born and raised in New Knoxville, who quit going to HQ when Sunday morning fellowships ceased to be simply "teaching the Word under the apple trees" and when the suits began to appear.
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Eyesopen
Unfortunately I saw a lot of the suit wearing bible thumpers that always complained when the local folk just wanted a real bbq and not a rented, bought in the store, 'decent and in order' dinner. I really hated it when they would try to turn a day in the park into an afternoon and evening in a stuffy rented 'room' with lots of sitting an listening to them talk. I can see why some folks stopped going.
Jesus taught under the olive tree and people heard him and got healed. He didnt wear a suit that I'm aware of so why did twi think that this was the way to go?
I should have taken the bottom off of ole Buzzy's cage or just let him out. He might have made some lovely decoration on Mr. Perfects pressed silk shirt. But then his poor wife would have had to clean it.
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doojable
Suits? If I recall correctly, the suits came in to lend legitimacy and to *get* the folks with the big bucks.
Hippies were fine for enthusiasm, but it takes $,$$$,$$$,$$$ to run a business. Let's face it, TWI was a business and not a ministry.
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Eyesopen
True dat! Knowing what I know now I wish I had turned the bird loose.
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Lifted Up
Regarding my earlier post and my comments about my deprogramming...before I read her book, I would have thought I would have experienced great relief that Kris being "rescued", a term that has often been applied to deprogramming, did not mean that...but that she was really rescued as she was by someone who loved her. Back in, I think it was January, I meade some sharp comment somewhere, it might have been on Kris's blog, that I did not in the least consider myself rescued by my deprogramming. My view on that has not changed...for me. But after reading her account of multple and long time abuse, if that is what it had taken to get her out, and if I had found that out at the end of the book, I simply would have been relieved for her. How her life and family relationships would have turned out if that was what got her out is up for grabs I guess; and since it is not my life, I sure wont speculate about it.
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Juan Cruz
Well, now, myself, my wife, and her sister have all read Kris' book - all without basically putting it down. Sister in law mentioned her own abuse (it would rate as criminal) in addition to other equally criminal cases she personally knows about -- by a different figure right next to Victor. Two of these, she's never mentioned before.
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Eyesopen
Interesting how the cleansing of one person's soul onto paper has caused others to find a kind of similar type of desire and ability to cleanse their own soul.
My roomate who was never in twi but had the unfortunate misadventure of living with a twi fanatic for six years also took the time to read Kris's book. She devoured the thing. When she was done she told me that now she understood how her previous 'roomie' had similarily brainwashed her from day one even to the extent of telling her that if she ever moved out she would be damning herself to the pits of hell. The abuses inflicted upon her were also criminal. But with some of what Kris shared about the thought processes involved with certain teachings she believes that she better understands how she was abused and can now start to making more positive changes to facilitate healing.
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Abigail
I think this book gives a tremendous amount of insight into the thought processes of someone who had been abused. It is something that would be difficult to understand if you haven't walked in those shoes, but Kristen has done an excellent job of telling it!!!
I kinda of wanted to move into that topic as the next part of the book discussion, where she talks a bit about being molested and her early experimentation with sexuality. I'm just not sure how to proceed with it, how to do it justice.
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Lifted Up
I see some connections here, even though I somehow dont feel too comfy discussing this, even though Kris has told about it. A child who is molested can be confused, knowing it doesn't feel right, but not tell anyone because of 1) shame, and 2) the person commiting the act had never done anything bad to her/him before. A young adult can have the same feelings, the main difference being the authority figure commiting the act is a trusted man of God, so it must be right.
In either case, it is something that should be understood by anyone who is tempted to gripe about the victim waiting years before telling about the abuse, if he or she can ever overcome these feelings enough to ever tell about it. I am sure there are quite a few people waiting in line to tell the next person who makes that gripe a thing or two, but I'll get in that line.
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Abigail
Well said, Lifted. And I will take it a step further. Shame, yes, is a big part of it. But for a little kid - especially a little kid who has been abused and neglected (and preditors are soooo very good at picking out the kids who have been abused and neglected) it is more than just shame. Mixed with that shame - causing that shame to be even greater, is the thrill that someone has finally noticed you exist. So yeah, there is a feeling that what is going on is wrong and that causes shame. There is also a feeling of being happy that someone knows you exist and on some level that happy feeling over something you know is wrong makes the shame oh so very much worse.
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Eyesopen
This sounds like the proverbial 'any kind of attention is better than none at all'. I have been told that sometimes the abused allow it to continue even when they know it is wrong because they believe that the person abusing them is really doing it out of love. Another aspect is when the abuser convinces the abused that they are the ones causing the problem. I cant tell you how many times I have heard a battered wife say 'I deserved it'. Of course I've kind of dropped into the realm of physical abuse as well as mental, but I would think that on some level sexual abuse is similar. I have heard some people use the defense that 'she asked for it by the way she was dressed' or worse 'she asked for it by being so pretty'. I heard a father say that about his thirteen year old daughter once.
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Juan Cruz
Dear All,
A friend who is an elder in the same (Presbyterian) church I go to is reading Losing the Way. Here is what she says,
She had an abusive, alcoholic, authoritarian father.
¿Tienes esperanza?
Quiero por usted y EEUU, la esperanza.
In hope,
Juan
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chockfull
Dang, kind of like all of us in TWI.
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Sunesis
I just started her book. I grew up in Rye, then moved to Larchmont. New Rochelle, Larchmont, Mamaroneck, Rye and other towns are all right next to each other on the Boston Post Road which goes up to Boston. They are NYC "bedroom" boroughs. In Larchmont, we were 20 minutes away from the City by train. I was also a "groovy" Christian of Rye.
What astounds me so far is her description of what it was like in NY back then during the "hippie" revolution. Like her, I too had an alcoholic father, many of us kids did. I think being "organization men" of the '50s, doing their rote corporate jobs, unwinding in the drinking cars on the train on the way home from work in the City, took a toll on many men.
We were little kids, so many of us raised ourselves, dad drunk when he was home, mom, distant - so many of us kids were on our own at a young age. We did cut school and hop the train into the city with our buddies to hang in Tompkins Square park, our older brothers and sisters did drive us to the city, we did basically what we wanted. Many kids rarely saw their parents 'cause the parents were always out, traveling - that one kid's house that was being renovated, parents in Spain - definitely happened alot. We travelled in little gangs.
Oh yeah, the boys did get us girls too. Whether it was walking home from school as a 7 year old and being dragged in the woods and molested by the older neighborhood boys, later as a teenager being drug into the new houses being built and forced to do things, or avoiding the neighborhood bully - there was always one, or my best friend's older brother who would lock us into the bathroom together. When I told his mom, why, her little Brian would never do that... Kids are so much more protected nowadays in many ways.
I guess my point is, we were so ripe for the pickin'. Here came the father figure with the offer of the godly family who really loved you. Hanging at someone's apartment in the City, but this time as part of a loving group, with the older kids - really, it just didn't get any cooler.
What an amazing intro, she captures the times and feel so well. We were so young, on our own, searching.
I ended up with TWI because of one of my high school buddies. But everytime I see a Hare Krishna, I think, there but for the grace of God go I. Hare Krishna would come to my high school, I loved them, they were wonderful people. My mom gave me permission to go to their temple in Brooklyn. I forgot to get directions - there was no internet back then to look them up with. Plus, I couldn't get any of my friends to go with me. I have a feeling, if I had made it to the temple, I would have become a devout Krishna member. I'm looking forward to reading more. This first part just really hit home. It was so incredibly, eerily similar to my situation.
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excathedra
thanks sunesis, very well said
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Avondale
Sunesis Said:
(QUOTE):We were little kids, so many of us raised ourselves, dad drunk when he was home, mom, distant - so many of us kids were on our own at a young age. We did cut school and hop the train into the city with our buddies to hang in Tompkins Square park, our older brothers and sisters did drive us to the city, we did basically what we wanted. Many kids rarely saw their parents 'cause the parents were always out, traveling - that one kid's house that was being renovated, parents in Spain - definitely happened alot. We travelled in little gangs.
I guess my point is, we were so ripe for the pickin'. Here came the father figure with the offer of the godly family who really loved you. Hanging at someone's apartment in the City, but this time as part of a loving group, with the older kids - really, it just didn't get any cooler.
What an amazing intro, she captures the times and feel so well. We were so young, on our own, searching.
WOW - after 35 years it's starting to make sense. Just A WEEK AGO a friend asked me why I think I wound up in a cult. It's been something I've been trying to figure out since 1986 when I left. My family thought it was because I broke up with a boyfriend of 4 years - I knew that wasn't the reason.
I was the "older sibling" going into the City, etc., raising myself and my siblings. I was a "groovy christian" from the Bronx - about 25 miles south of Rye in 1973 - just missing the Dr. driving into town on his Harley days (which, of course, we all heard about - it was a legend)
Thanks Sunesis - I believe that's it - the father figure that was missing. My father was not an alcoholic (although my mother probably was in those days, it was hard to tell - with the scotch on the rocks every night. It was "normal". BUT my father was Manic Depressive, hospitalized about every 3 years. My sister was Schizophrenic and committed suicide in 1967 at the age of 18 (I was 17 at the time). I was always SO proud of myself for NOT being mentally Ill in this mentally ill family so denied for a very LONG time that the Way was a cult, as that would make me less on a strong, independent person to join something like that.
Well, we all know how that happens because we all have our own stories and reasons. But I think I'm finally seeing that I really needed that father figure or even more so, stabalization and focus in my life at that time. And what do you know.....there was "The Way".
Thanks Kristen for the help and insight you are givng to the rest of us, along with(I'm sure) you're own healing.
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Sunesis
I agree Avondale, TWI offered us a safe haven in those chaotic times. Kris made another wonderful statement in her book when she said, "They [her parents] raised me liberally, without doctrine or structures...but their lack of directedness had an unintended consequence. I looked for another anchor, one stronger and steadier than myself or my parents."
That to me so beautifully sums up why so many of us got into TWI. We were without structure (me and most of my friends anyway) and were looking for an anchor - TWI, the Word, offered that safe harbor.
I finally finished her book. I found it excellent. I recommend it. She shares her thoughts, what was going on in her mind the whole time. For anyone wondering, what happened????!!! How did we end up there? She articulates is wonderfully.
One other thing she said interested me. I know in many religions, especially in ancient times, you had the "mystery" religions. Where the regular people were taught one thing, but the special "initiates" were initiated into the deepest mysteries - only a select few could handle it. After he finally gets her in bed after explaining grace, etc. she writes "the Doctor has ushered me nto the deeper mystery of the Word, where grace reigns supreme.... I am initiated." The great depths of the Word, according to VP - adultry is good, because grace reigns supreme. We can do anything - because grace reigns supreme.
Does not Paul in Romans and other places say, do not use grace as an excuse to sin? I just found it interesting - for the "top" most "spiritual" people in TWI, the great deep, secret wasn't Christ - it was sex. It was all about sex.
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Avondale
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