Tzaia, I don`t believe that statement is entirely accurate.
The most heartbreaking and cruel treatment I recieved while in, was from an interim family corpes beetch.
I was only app corpes/wow when required to do unthinkable acts to stay withing the hedge of God`s protection.
Whether twi contact caused people to become abusive and cruel, or it simply attracted and fostered people whom were viscious abusers anyway, I don`t know.
What about all of the children that were physically and sexually abused on the field and at rout locals? They weren`t upper ranks.
I just know that cruel treatment and abuse was rampant all through the ranks. I think to dismiss the suffering and horrors endured as just a few instances in the top levels, and therefor unimportant, or irrelevant to our experience...isn`t fair.
Having read the book, I feel compelled to say that the book is not really about the sex, per se.
It's about the depth of abuse, manipulation and deception that permeated the lives and thoughts of people (such as VPW) who were supposed to be examples for us to emulate.
The sex scandal was merely one facet of a much larger problem.
I would recommend this book to anyone who has been affected by an abusive, controlling organization, regardless of whether or not they had ever been involved with TWI.
Tzaia, I don`t believe that statement is entirely accurate.
The most heartbreaking and cruel treatment I recieved while in, was from an interim family corpes beetch.
I was only app corpes/wow when required to do unthinkable acts to stay withing the hedge of God`s protection.
Whether twi contact caused people to become abusive and cruel, or it simply attracted and fostered people whom were viscious abusers anyway, I don`t know.
What about all of the children that were physically and sexually abused on the field and at rout locals? They weren`t upper ranks.
I just know that cruel treatment and abuse was rampant all through the ranks. I think to dismiss the suffering and horrors endured as just a few instances in the top levels, and therefor unimportant, or irrelevant to our experience...isn`t fair.
I'm not saying it didn't happen all over, I (personally) saw less of it once I got about an hour away. It seemed to be more rampant among those who had gone WOW and kept going back WOW and those who went into the corp. The rank and file of us who had kids and were just living weren't like that.
I guess I got a reputation for not being approachable. I saw it happen with others. It simply didn't happen with me.
I'm not saying it didn't happen all over, I (personally) saw less of it once I got about an hour away. It seemed to be more rampant among those who had gone WOW and kept going back WOW and those who went into the corp. The rank and file of us who had kids and were just living weren't like that.
I guess I got a reputation for not being approachable. I saw it happen with others. It simply didn't happen with me.
Since you have made it clear you are giving your account from your own point of view, I think you observation is reasonable and realistic.
I was in the 8th corps, as Kristen was, and for most of my corps time I didn't see or hear of anythng about women having to "submit" to the man of God in the way that Kristen was made to, or of the idea that corps men were supposed to "loosen up" sexually, as VPW presumably told LCM. The lockbox was kept pretty tightly closed. I was on our corps camping trip (the one where we carried our live chicken dinners) in March 1978, where one night I was in a two person coed tent, and I know neither one of us had the slightest thought of anything sexual.
On the other hand, Kristen's account in her book tells of the abuse that she suffered well before she went into the corps.
As for me, the "loosening up" idea filtered down to me during the fall of 1979 in my final residence year at HQ in the form of a little incident. It was very minor and certainly not abuse, but as I wrote in Kristen's blog, it because one little flag to me that abuse such as Kristen accounts of COULD have happened.
Speaking of those going WOW, at ROA 1978, those of us corps who were going WOW the coming year were called into the woods for a meeting and told to watch ourselves, because there had already been several abortions TWI had to pay for.
Keith, my husband was a college WOW in Bloomington in the mid 70s.
I wonder if he knew that guy I was talking about that came up to Indy after ROA 1976, D*** Stin***?
As far as the teaching about sex in the corp was that penetration wasn't allowed, but other means of pleasuring one another were ok. I thought it was a pretty fine line, but since I wasn't so "spiritually developed", I just called it wrong.
You're dang right it is a pretty fine line. I think that the little loosening up episode I went through that I have mentioned a couple times followed that teaching.
Even with all the lockbox stuff we didn't know was going on, a lot of us had enough hints on how ripe conditions were for abuse like what Kristen (AND OTHERS) went through to take place, even if it took some of us quite a while to recognize those conditions as such.
Tzaia - I may have met your husband, but I really didn't last long after I came back to Bloomington. I opened up my home for a fellowship to meet there, run by someone else and they kept calling everyone in the fellowship up telling them they were meeting at such and such a place to witness. Only for some reason they only let me know part of the time, so there I was waiting for someone to show up.
Really the ministry left me rather than me leaving the ministry.
I really hadn't heard any teaching that would alow the type of abuse that Kris when through. But I had heard of a lot of "believers" doing sexual things that seemed to be the opposite of what I thought I was being taught. I was too bothered by the idea of pre-marital sex, but I was bothered by pre-merital sex with someone you were not engaged to. I also knew a WOW who kept a sting of un-believing boys for fun during her off time.
I really hadn't heard any teaching that would alow the type of abuse that Kris when through.
Neither had I, as I think I explained earlier. Certainly there was no "formal" teaching. I think the teaching of a woman submitting to a man in a marriage was somehow, quietly and slowly, expanded (in the corps at least) to cover all women being required to submit to the man of God. Even then, to the naive (like me), this didn't directly imply sexual submission, thus those of us with "pure" motives being able to share a coed tent on a camping trip without thoughts of hanky panky. True, there was no formal teaching like that...except that one thing that was hammered to us in the corps was obediance and submission by everyone to our leaders. You know, "don't ask how far, just jump...".
I think it is pretty easy for us to see how Kristen did not have the option to refuse without, in her mind, risking her life...her eternal life if not more...easy to see even for those like me who believe there were a lot of good things in TWI. It may not be so easy for those on the outside who know nothing about TWI, and if anyone who hears her account, be it honestly and unknowingly or not, hints that Kris might have consented...COULD have consented...to the abuse, those of us who might be in the right position can help out.
I hope I may be excused for posting for no other reason than to bring this back into visible range, for possible benefit to some new people we have had come in.
Addressing why most folks didn`t hear about the teachings that allowed the treatment such as Kristin recieved. Of COURSE one wouldn`t have heard of any *official* teaching. That took careful chosing of whom they wished to victimize. It took careful grooming to prepare their intended target.
They used terms like spiritualy mature enough to handle their freedoms in Christ, all things being lawful to them which are in Christ, all parts of the body being equal, all the women in the kingdom belonging to the king and the mogs were our modern version of kings....eating meat or not was ok as long as you weren`t a stumbling block to your brother.
There were deeper meanings that the general believers weren`t mature enough to handle, so ut was all kept lock box so that you didn`t cause your brother to stumble.
It was planned, and it was sick, and it was all about using the scriptures and God`s name to facillitate the sating of their depraved lusts and filling their bellies.
How can someone teach out one side of his mouth that God's Word is so simple even a child can understand it, and then teach out of the other side you have to be "spiritually mature" to REALLY understand it?
I may not have been spiritually mature or a graduate of the Way Corps, but I can smell a load of BS 50 miles this side of the state legislature when the wind blows in the right direction, and that was pure BS. The first time I heard it was in Charleston, and I still don't like and I never did.
I was giving the official version. Just like any predator, child molester, etc...they have *secrets* with their victims. They make them feel special, so that the dirty little secret is kept from public view, from the people or athorities that would recognize the exploitation. When feeling special doesn`t work, then manipulation and intimidation is used to ensure continued silence.
It takes years and years sometimes to come to recognize the betrayal.
They used terms like spiritualy mature enough to handle their freedoms in Christ.
Which was a form of flattery. Who in TWI would not wish to consider themselves spiritually mature? The first time I heard that load of crap, I pulled out the verse about all being given an equal measure of spirit. Then it became a "matter of faith." That load of crap was countered by my "belief" that if you had to flatter and offer fake relationships to get people to come on board and become spiritually mature, perhaps what TWI was offering wasn't all that desirable.
I understand that was the official version. The term was used for many purposes, to flatter, cajole, and also to threaten, reprove, and as a "put-down."
I read the book a few weeks ago and was appalled at the abuse and manipulation that she suffered. Kristens Mothers strength of character really impressed me, she stood by her the whole time. She had the sense to not push knowing it would really push away.
After reading I was also thankful that my time in TWI was not like that. I didn't see any of the abuses to that extent, I saw a lot of talking down to and a lot that just didn't click (but very mild in comparison) the people in my area were pretty good, it was the leadership that was imported to my area I wasn't too crazy about.
I hope I may be excused for posting for no other reason than to bring this back into visible range, for possible benefit to some new people we have had come in.
and some older ones too.
Just kidding, Rascal, I don't really believe you are 900 years old.
They used terms like spiritualy mature enough to handle their freedoms in Christ,
On the male side, that goes along with the term "loosening up".
I didn't see any of the abuses to that extent, I saw a lot of talking down to and a lot that just didn't click (but very mild in comparison) the people in my area were pretty good
Exactly the reasons why I for many years felt my experience in corps my final corps residence year didn't mean anything...very mild in comparison, the people involved were good, etc).
reading the few above posts, it's really a shame i didn't know more of "the word" lol (it wouldn't have mattered really, i thought he / they knew more than i)
too used to obeying father figures, i guess
although my mom's love and my own common sense kept me pulling away -- grossed out in a sense
After reading I was also thankful that my time in TWI was not like that. I didn't see any of the abuses to that extent, I saw a lot of talking down to and a lot that just didn't click (but very mild in comparison) the people in my area were pretty good, it was the leadership that was imported to my area I wasn't too crazy about.
I think the abuse was targeted at those considered ripe for it; i.e. those like Kris at the time who were thought of as being candidates. I very recently (within the last three months) saw on another forum what I think was a not so subtle sign of this, specifically related to what Kris wrote.
Of whichever leaders were involved in the abuse, I am sure that VPW knew who was and who was not a candidate.
"Submitting" such as Kristen had to do, to stay in "fellowhip"; to prove that she was still "spiritually mature", was apparently so established that she did not outwardly question what she was asked/told to do, and in turn submitted any doubts that arose in her mind to the doctrine that if the man of God says it's OK, then it's good. But I find it interesting, according to what she wrote, that a flag went up right away when she came across VPW's writings on Hitler and the Holocaust.
I think that finding and reading those writings (I'd sure like to hear more from her on this) helped her realize that she was being abused. Anyway, I'm sure that starter of this thread could say a lot about those writings.
After reading Losing The Way it made me want to speak out more against TWI.
First, I don't think I could do much speaking out on my own, or at least based on my own experiences. They simply aren't worth speaking out about on my own. Not standing by themselves, anyway.
When I read Kristen's book, however, quite a few bells got rung. I mentioned early on this thread that being in the 8th corps as well during that first residence year at Emporia helped understand a lot I didn't realize before. Even being also in Indiana during my apprentice year contained some of those bells that were rung. Most appropriately, some of the things that were taught and said that made conditions ripe for people to be abused as she was, suddenly didn't seem so minor anymore.
Even a little experience of my own (the "loosening up" thing I have mentioned on a couple posts somewhere) that happened later at HQ became much more significant, not so much for my experience, but for how it showed how ripe conditions were for such experiences as she and others have gone through.
I realized that if I could ever help back up her...or anyone's...abuse experience by telling about some of these things in light of the abuse that was committed, I could and would do that. I realized further that even many of the good in my own experience could be relevant. It could help illustrate how people presumably of common sense and good upbringing could wind up committing themselves to the point of obeying, even if it meant being abused. The late Jan Groenveld, whose posts graced the onelist (now the Way on yahoo groups I guess) , always had that quote at the end of her posts, "The most dangerous lie is that which most closely resembles the truth".
Of course, there is something, the importance of which comes ahead of speaking out, and that is getting healed. I think Kris' remarks about how writing about her experiences was healing, on her second interview with Paw, drove that home. So, if the need for me to speak out didn't arise, that is fine because the most important thing is being accomplished, the healing. I hope that is the case as well for any others who speak about their abuse.
The most real experiences to people are those they have lived. The most real experiences of someone else to a person are those they let you (or me or anyone) live. Kris wrote in a style that lets us live her experience, not just hear it told about from 30 years or whatever later.
Of course, the whole thing requires trust. I imagine it is hard to tell an experience of abuse to others without fear of being doubted, criticized, stalked, personally attacked or etc. etc. and etc. It also can be hard for someone to trust an account when believing it requires a major adjustment to one's thinking about how their live has been lived. I've thought that all this trusting can go together, or fail together.
That's my own thoughts on this, and sometimes lately I have wondered if I've been barking up the wrong tree. (I use that expression partly because our small dog likes to chase the local squirrel population, and often winds up literally barking up the wrong tree).
However, to comment on your post which I took the liberty of quoting above, if it makes you want to speak out, then look for ways to do it.
I was just browsing amazon and saw that a couple of twi innies left scathing reviews of the book and questioned Kristin's ability to remember events that happened so long ago.
hell, I remember my 3rd birthday party and that was longer ago than Kristin's experiences. I remember hundreds of events from my childhood before I reached the age of 10. I even know why my parents divorced and I was only 4, because as an adult the events I witnessed that seemed to mean nothing through a child's eyes make perfect sense as an adult.
the attempts to question Kristin's memory are laughable, and predictable, and one of the tactics they used on me when I was an innie to make me doubt my every thought.
I can't wait to read her book. I just bought it for myself as a winter solstice present.
I just read the reviews at amazon, they are obviously written by twi innies who are in a state of extreme denial.
They cite her complicity during her years with twi, her lack of publically speaking out when she left, and why it took 27 years to go public as reason to invalidate the whole book as if these things take away from her credibility! Â On the contrary I think the"innies" complete Stockholm syndrome stance give credibility to her story and exemplifies how difficult it is to breech the lockstep mindset and brainwashing of cults and come out into reality on the other side. Â
This deep denial by the innies also gives creedence to why it took her so long to come forward, why the descruction runs so deep, and why the healing process is so long. Â Her actions are typical of cult followers and sexual abuse victims.
I hope that everyone here who bought her book posts reviews on amazon pointing out the nasty reviewer naystayers who describe the book as fiction, are still under the spell of the ghost of the cornfield pervert.Â
I was just browsing amazon and saw that a couple of twi innies left scathing reviews of the book and questioned Kristin's ability to remember events that happened so long ago.
...
I can't wait to read her book. I just bought it for myself as a winter solstice present.
When I first read her book, I knew that if ever needed I could testify to some of the details she mentions from that 8th corps residence year at Emporia, even a couple of things she mentions about her apprentice year in Indiana (I was at Indy working on my work days off at limb HQ.)
Perhaps that will never be needed. But more importantly, in my own mind some of these details helped immensely in making her experience, as she wrote about it, more real to me. Just as important was the tone in which she wrote; i.e. non-bitter because she wrote about it kind of as she were living it.
Also, I would ask those who posted as such that, if they were horribly abused...let's even make it outside of TWI if they like...would they forget THAT?
Glad to see you finally got the book. I know what happened to her may seem like nothing new to some people on GS who were abused or know someone who was abused. And I had not been denying that such abuse might have happened, but it can be a big step from might have to knowing it did happen.
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Lifted Up
I see some connections here, even though I somehow dont feel too comfy discussing this, even though Kris has told about it. A child who is molested can be confused, knowing it doesn't feel right, but
potato
I'm gonna pass on clicking the link because I remember ck too well now, but I encourage newcomers to do so. ck's writing is a good example of what happens to your brain when you make a man into a god.
Lifted Up
Exactly the reasons why I for many years felt my experience in corps my final corps residence year didn't mean anything...very mild in comparison, the people involved were good, etc).
rascal
Tzaia, I don`t believe that statement is entirely accurate.
The most heartbreaking and cruel treatment I recieved while in, was from an interim family corpes beetch.
I was only app corpes/wow when required to do unthinkable acts to stay withing the hedge of God`s protection.
Whether twi contact caused people to become abusive and cruel, or it simply attracted and fostered people whom were viscious abusers anyway, I don`t know.
What about all of the children that were physically and sexually abused on the field and at rout locals? They weren`t upper ranks.
I just know that cruel treatment and abuse was rampant all through the ranks. I think to dismiss the suffering and horrors endured as just a few instances in the top levels, and therefor unimportant, or irrelevant to our experience...isn`t fair.
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waysider
Having read the book, I feel compelled to say that the book is not really about the sex, per se.
It's about the depth of abuse, manipulation and deception that permeated the lives and thoughts of people (such as VPW) who were supposed to be examples for us to emulate.
The sex scandal was merely one facet of a much larger problem.
I would recommend this book to anyone who has been affected by an abusive, controlling organization, regardless of whether or not they had ever been involved with TWI.
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Tzaia
I'm not saying it didn't happen all over, I (personally) saw less of it once I got about an hour away. It seemed to be more rampant among those who had gone WOW and kept going back WOW and those who went into the corp. The rank and file of us who had kids and were just living weren't like that.
I guess I got a reputation for not being approachable. I saw it happen with others. It simply didn't happen with me.
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Lifted Up
Since you have made it clear you are giving your account from your own point of view, I think you observation is reasonable and realistic.
I was in the 8th corps, as Kristen was, and for most of my corps time I didn't see or hear of anythng about women having to "submit" to the man of God in the way that Kristen was made to, or of the idea that corps men were supposed to "loosen up" sexually, as VPW presumably told LCM. The lockbox was kept pretty tightly closed. I was on our corps camping trip (the one where we carried our live chicken dinners) in March 1978, where one night I was in a two person coed tent, and I know neither one of us had the slightest thought of anything sexual.
On the other hand, Kristen's account in her book tells of the abuse that she suffered well before she went into the corps.
As for me, the "loosening up" idea filtered down to me during the fall of 1979 in my final residence year at HQ in the form of a little incident. It was very minor and certainly not abuse, but as I wrote in Kristen's blog, it because one little flag to me that abuse such as Kristen accounts of COULD have happened.
Speaking of those going WOW, at ROA 1978, those of us corps who were going WOW the coming year were called into the woods for a meeting and told to watch ourselves, because there had already been several abortions TWI had to pay for.
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Lifted Up
I wonder if he knew that guy I was talking about that came up to Indy after ROA 1976, D*** Stin***?
You're dang right it is a pretty fine line. I think that the little loosening up episode I went through that I have mentioned a couple times followed that teaching.
Even with all the lockbox stuff we didn't know was going on, a lot of us had enough hints on how ripe conditions were for abuse like what Kristen (AND OTHERS) went through to take place, even if it took some of us quite a while to recognize those conditions as such.
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Keith
Tzaia - I may have met your husband, but I really didn't last long after I came back to Bloomington. I opened up my home for a fellowship to meet there, run by someone else and they kept calling everyone in the fellowship up telling them they were meeting at such and such a place to witness. Only for some reason they only let me know part of the time, so there I was waiting for someone to show up.
Really the ministry left me rather than me leaving the ministry.
I really hadn't heard any teaching that would alow the type of abuse that Kris when through. But I had heard of a lot of "believers" doing sexual things that seemed to be the opposite of what I thought I was being taught. I was too bothered by the idea of pre-marital sex, but I was bothered by pre-merital sex with someone you were not engaged to. I also knew a WOW who kept a sting of un-believing boys for fun during her off time.
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Lifted Up
Neither had I, as I think I explained earlier. Certainly there was no "formal" teaching. I think the teaching of a woman submitting to a man in a marriage was somehow, quietly and slowly, expanded (in the corps at least) to cover all women being required to submit to the man of God. Even then, to the naive (like me), this didn't directly imply sexual submission, thus those of us with "pure" motives being able to share a coed tent on a camping trip without thoughts of hanky panky. True, there was no formal teaching like that...except that one thing that was hammered to us in the corps was obediance and submission by everyone to our leaders. You know, "don't ask how far, just jump...".
I think it is pretty easy for us to see how Kristen did not have the option to refuse without, in her mind, risking her life...her eternal life if not more...easy to see even for those like me who believe there were a lot of good things in TWI. It may not be so easy for those on the outside who know nothing about TWI, and if anyone who hears her account, be it honestly and unknowingly or not, hints that Kris might have consented...COULD have consented...to the abuse, those of us who might be in the right position can help out.
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Lifted Up
I hope I may be excused for posting for no other reason than to bring this back into visible range, for possible benefit to some new people we have had come in.
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rascal
Addressing why most folks didn`t hear about the teachings that allowed the treatment such as Kristin recieved. Of COURSE one wouldn`t have heard of any *official* teaching. That took careful chosing of whom they wished to victimize. It took careful grooming to prepare their intended target.
They used terms like spiritualy mature enough to handle their freedoms in Christ, all things being lawful to them which are in Christ, all parts of the body being equal, all the women in the kingdom belonging to the king and the mogs were our modern version of kings....eating meat or not was ok as long as you weren`t a stumbling block to your brother.
There were deeper meanings that the general believers weren`t mature enough to handle, so ut was all kept lock box so that you didn`t cause your brother to stumble.
It was planned, and it was sick, and it was all about using the scriptures and God`s name to facillitate the sating of their depraved lusts and filling their bellies.
These guys were scum.
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Watered Garden
How can someone teach out one side of his mouth that God's Word is so simple even a child can understand it, and then teach out of the other side you have to be "spiritually mature" to REALLY understand it?
I may not have been spiritually mature or a graduate of the Way Corps, but I can smell a load of BS 50 miles this side of the state legislature when the wind blows in the right direction, and that was pure BS. The first time I heard it was in Charleston, and I still don't like and I never did.
WG
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rascal
WG,
I was giving the official version. Just like any predator, child molester, etc...they have *secrets* with their victims. They make them feel special, so that the dirty little secret is kept from public view, from the people or athorities that would recognize the exploitation. When feeling special doesn`t work, then manipulation and intimidation is used to ensure continued silence.
It takes years and years sometimes to come to recognize the betrayal.
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Tzaia
Which was a form of flattery. Who in TWI would not wish to consider themselves spiritually mature? The first time I heard that load of crap, I pulled out the verse about all being given an equal measure of spirit. Then it became a "matter of faith." That load of crap was countered by my "belief" that if you had to flatter and offer fake relationships to get people to come on board and become spiritually mature, perhaps what TWI was offering wasn't all that desirable.
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Watered Garden
I understand that was the official version. The term was used for many purposes, to flatter, cajole, and also to threaten, reprove, and as a "put-down."
WG
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so it was
I read the book a few weeks ago and was appalled at the abuse and manipulation that she suffered. Kristens Mothers strength of character really impressed me, she stood by her the whole time. She had the sense to not push knowing it would really push away.
After reading I was also thankful that my time in TWI was not like that. I didn't see any of the abuses to that extent, I saw a lot of talking down to and a lot that just didn't click (but very mild in comparison) the people in my area were pretty good, it was the leadership that was imported to my area I wasn't too crazy about.
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Lifted Up
and some older ones too.
Just kidding, Rascal, I don't really believe you are 900 years old.
On the male side, that goes along with the term "loosening up".
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Lifted Up
Exactly the reasons why I for many years felt my experience in corps my final corps residence year didn't mean anything...very mild in comparison, the people involved were good, etc).
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excathedra
reading the few above posts, it's really a shame i didn't know more of "the word" lol (it wouldn't have mattered really, i thought he / they knew more than i)
too used to obeying father figures, i guess
although my mom's love and my own common sense kept me pulling away -- grossed out in a sense
but always doubting myself
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Lifted Up
I think the abuse was targeted at those considered ripe for it; i.e. those like Kris at the time who were thought of as being candidates. I very recently (within the last three months) saw on another forum what I think was a not so subtle sign of this, specifically related to what Kris wrote.
Of whichever leaders were involved in the abuse, I am sure that VPW knew who was and who was not a candidate.
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Lifted Up
"Submitting" such as Kristen had to do, to stay in "fellowhip"; to prove that she was still "spiritually mature", was apparently so established that she did not outwardly question what she was asked/told to do, and in turn submitted any doubts that arose in her mind to the doctrine that if the man of God says it's OK, then it's good. But I find it interesting, according to what she wrote, that a flag went up right away when she came across VPW's writings on Hitler and the Holocaust.
I think that finding and reading those writings (I'd sure like to hear more from her on this) helped her realize that she was being abused. Anyway, I'm sure that starter of this thread could say a lot about those writings.
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cheranne
After reading Losing The Way it made me want to speak out more against TWI.
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Lifted Up
First, I don't think I could do much speaking out on my own, or at least based on my own experiences. They simply aren't worth speaking out about on my own. Not standing by themselves, anyway.
When I read Kristen's book, however, quite a few bells got rung. I mentioned early on this thread that being in the 8th corps as well during that first residence year at Emporia helped understand a lot I didn't realize before. Even being also in Indiana during my apprentice year contained some of those bells that were rung. Most appropriately, some of the things that were taught and said that made conditions ripe for people to be abused as she was, suddenly didn't seem so minor anymore.
Even a little experience of my own (the "loosening up" thing I have mentioned on a couple posts somewhere) that happened later at HQ became much more significant, not so much for my experience, but for how it showed how ripe conditions were for such experiences as she and others have gone through.
I realized that if I could ever help back up her...or anyone's...abuse experience by telling about some of these things in light of the abuse that was committed, I could and would do that. I realized further that even many of the good in my own experience could be relevant. It could help illustrate how people presumably of common sense and good upbringing could wind up committing themselves to the point of obeying, even if it meant being abused. The late Jan Groenveld, whose posts graced the onelist (now the Way on yahoo groups I guess) , always had that quote at the end of her posts, "The most dangerous lie is that which most closely resembles the truth".
Of course, there is something, the importance of which comes ahead of speaking out, and that is getting healed. I think Kris' remarks about how writing about her experiences was healing, on her second interview with Paw, drove that home. So, if the need for me to speak out didn't arise, that is fine because the most important thing is being accomplished, the healing. I hope that is the case as well for any others who speak about their abuse.
The most real experiences to people are those they have lived. The most real experiences of someone else to a person are those they let you (or me or anyone) live. Kris wrote in a style that lets us live her experience, not just hear it told about from 30 years or whatever later.
Of course, the whole thing requires trust. I imagine it is hard to tell an experience of abuse to others without fear of being doubted, criticized, stalked, personally attacked or etc. etc. and etc. It also can be hard for someone to trust an account when believing it requires a major adjustment to one's thinking about how their live has been lived. I've thought that all this trusting can go together, or fail together.
That's my own thoughts on this, and sometimes lately I have wondered if I've been barking up the wrong tree. (I use that expression partly because our small dog likes to chase the local squirrel population, and often winds up literally barking up the wrong tree).
However, to comment on your post which I took the liberty of quoting above, if it makes you want to speak out, then look for ways to do it.
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potato
I was just browsing amazon and saw that a couple of twi innies left scathing reviews of the book and questioned Kristin's ability to remember events that happened so long ago.
hell, I remember my 3rd birthday party and that was longer ago than Kristin's experiences. I remember hundreds of events from my childhood before I reached the age of 10. I even know why my parents divorced and I was only 4, because as an adult the events I witnessed that seemed to mean nothing through a child's eyes make perfect sense as an adult.
the attempts to question Kristin's memory are laughable, and predictable, and one of the tactics they used on me when I was an innie to make me doubt my every thought.
I can't wait to read her book. I just bought it for myself as a winter solstice present.
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now I see
I just read the reviews at amazon, they are obviously written by twi innies who are in a state of extreme denial.
They cite her complicity during her years with twi, her lack of publically speaking out when she left, and why it took 27 years to go public as reason to invalidate the whole book as if these things take away from her credibility! Â On the contrary I think the"innies" complete Stockholm syndrome stance give credibility to her story and exemplifies how difficult it is to breech the lockstep mindset and brainwashing of cults and come out into reality on the other side. Â
This deep denial by the innies also gives creedence to why it took her so long to come forward, why the descruction runs so deep, and why the healing process is so long. Â Her actions are typical of cult followers and sexual abuse victims.
I hope that everyone here who bought her book posts reviews on amazon pointing out the nasty reviewer naystayers who describe the book as fiction, are still under the spell of the ghost of the cornfield pervert.Â
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Lifted Up
When I first read her book, I knew that if ever needed I could testify to some of the details she mentions from that 8th corps residence year at Emporia, even a couple of things she mentions about her apprentice year in Indiana (I was at Indy working on my work days off at limb HQ.)
Perhaps that will never be needed. But more importantly, in my own mind some of these details helped immensely in making her experience, as she wrote about it, more real to me. Just as important was the tone in which she wrote; i.e. non-bitter because she wrote about it kind of as she were living it.
Also, I would ask those who posted as such that, if they were horribly abused...let's even make it outside of TWI if they like...would they forget THAT?
Glad to see you finally got the book. I know what happened to her may seem like nothing new to some people on GS who were abused or know someone who was abused. And I had not been denying that such abuse might have happened, but it can be a big step from might have to knowing it did happen.
Winter solstice present, though??? <_<
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