Perhaps, good doctor, to properly evaluate your claim, you could give us some numbers... like what is your before/after weight and body composition percentages?
The low carb diet certainly works. Can't argue with Sudo's results !
In my case, I went from 220 to 175 in 2 years by cutting out fast food, soda, and huge portions. Otherwise, I ate anything, including carbs ,in moderation. I can occasionally have pancakes on Sunday morning, without beating myself up or gaining the weight back.
This is the only diet I've ever tried and I did it for a month or so because I really wanted to get into a dress I'd bought. And for a few months before. I'd slothed around and not taken my usual exercise but continued to eat as if still vigorously exercising. I was shocked at how fast the weight disappeared, including that little football that sits just below the belt (!).
I am not naturally a fat person and have weighed pretty much the same since I was about 20 - well I weighed 9 1/2 stone before I went in the Corps, put on an extra 8lb there and got to 10 stone (140 lb) and thought my face looked better at that. So that's where I hover, give or take 8lb.
What I missed on the Atkins diet was eating fresh fruit, of which I eat loads, but apart from berries the dieter can't eat much fruit especially in the early stages.
From what I've heard, the carbo promoters have been hijacked by the flour and sugar producers. So what are they going to promote? Carbs, one way or the other.
It might not be so good for other things, though depending on the state of one's arteries.
But then, diabetes from too many carbs, or furred-up arteries from too much fat...choose your poison.
Gary Taubes book "Good Calories, Bad Calories" lays out the scientific proof that low carb is by far the healthiest diet - especially for cholesterol, heart disease and diabetes. He also lays out the ego, political maneuvering, intimidation and foul play that prevents the low carb diet from being prescribed and promoted the way it should be.
One study doesn't make it completely true. While there is definitely a need to reduce carbs tremendously, that doesn't necessarily make the Atkins diet (e.g. only meat and cheese) the healthiest diet, nor the best way to lose weight and keep it off. There is a need for more tests, and more clarifications. From what I read about the recent study, they did a low carb diet, using lots of lean meats. So in effect, the diet they tested was both low carb and low fat, which is quite significant.
The most amazing thing about the study, which is a positive thing, is that the low carb diet reduces cholesterol levels extremely fast. Still, more tests, especially ones that are controlled more, need to be done before we can completely say what is causing the results that were gained in this study.
P-Mosh, they've been done - that's what Taub's book documents - lots of tests going back to the 1800's have been done that prove it much better and with much more dramatic results than the one study that's getting so much attention. :)
I'm doing a medically supervised diet using OptiFast shakes. The 6 shakes a day give you all of your daily nourishments. I drink at least a half gallon of liquid a day and am limited to 12 oz of caffeine a day. It is less than 1000 calories a day. www.optifast.com
I suppose you meant Atkins, rather than "Adkins," but, assuming you are avoiding milk due to milk's carb calories, do you happen to know how your bone density is holding up?
Thanks for the compliment! And good link to Gary Taubes book. I haven't read it but its the gist of what I really had in mind when I started this thread.. What if the conventional wisdom (low fat is healthy) is wrong? What if its all a big fat lie? In answer to Rocky, my numbers are very similar to Highway29's... I lost 65-70lbs, my good cholesterol went way up and my bad cholesterol plummeted! I went from 225 down to about 165lbs. That was 4years ago and the very important thing is this.. I had KEPT it off! I've gained back nearly 10lbs this year though because I got really sloppy about the carbs. I'm back in low carb mode again now to get back where I was. Then I can slack off a little bit if I really want to. Thing is, though.. I LIKE low carb for the most part.
Contrary to popular opinion a low carb diet (you're right Cynic.. I meant Atkins) should not be a meat and cheese diet. What you give up are unhealthy starches.. potatoes, corn, flour products etc. What you should be doing is eating the healthy low carb vegetables.. Brussels sprouts, asparagus, broccoli, cauliflower, spinach, greens, zucchini or other squashes etc... salads I can go on and on but Man... I'm talking high nutrition. Low carb especially when combined with the Mediterranean diet (add olive oil and lots of fish instead of red meat) is very very healthy, IMO.
But this is a thread for discussion.. does anyone see things differently or are we all in agreement here?
sudo
P.S. I eat a lot of sardines, Cynic. The small ones with the bones that are too tiny to taste. That not only gives me all the omega3's that I need but 25% of my daily calcium as well. In addition I take only one supplement.. two Calcium and vitamin D tablets a day.
I don't know if your response is sound, but it does seem reasonable. I am provisionally inclined, however, to give the American Heart Association and what seems the prevalent position in nutritional education more credence than I give the Atkins advocates -- not that a consensus among dietary authorities ultimately settles the questions about the Atkins diet or other dietary approaches.
Gary Taubes book "Good Calories, Bad Calories" lays out the scientific proof that low carb is by far the healthiest diet - especially for cholesterol, heart disease and diabetes. He also lays out the ego, political maneuvering, intimidation and foul play that prevents the low carb diet from being prescribed and promoted the way it should be.
I checked out Taubes's book at the library the other day.... I'm not sure I need to read all the studies, but do want to get to the summaries thereof.
btw, one of the clinical nutritionists at the VA medical center here in Phoenix, when I asked her about Taubes's book (this week), said I was the third person who had done so very recently. She said she has the book and hasn't begun reading it.
To me, that says she's open minded about it. When I get feedback from her, I'll let y'all know.
I've talked about this diet before here at Grease Spot, concerning two of the clients that live at the group home I work at. They (both males) are 5' 2", are victims of Prader-Willie Syndrome, and both used to weigh 400 (plus) pounds. Currently --- both weigh in at 133 (or thereabouts), after 14 years of MEASURED meals, with NO sweets, and only diet soda WITH (minimal) exercise 4 times a week -- they are where they are today.
Carbs, protein, and veggies (along with fruit) are allowed in their daily diet.
It's the measurements that count. NOT saying this will work for all ----- >>>
But it did for them, and their condition is genetic, so they really can't help it,
In December of 2005, I went for my 6 month cardiologist visit. I had to wait a long time, so out of boredom, I snuck out to the local store and picked up a couple donuts and a cappuccino. I came back and munched them contentedly until they called me. When I went in for my obligatory pre appointment weigh in and BP/temp check, I weighed in at 320 lbs.
WHISKEY TANGO FOXTROT!!??!!
320 lbs!!??!!
That was a huge shock to me. 320 lbs!
I realized it was time to either make some serious changes or get fitted for a coffin made from a piano box. My cardiologist, although sympathetic, was no help at all as he's about 5'8" in every direction.
I waddled home and made some serious decisions and changes.
After eliminating sugar, white flour, pasta, white rice, potatoes etc., I weighed about 270 in this photo.
Since then, I've lost about 90 lbs and weighed in this morning at 182.
I explored many options, including the Atkins diet and learned all I could learn about nutrition and how it applied to me, since I'm of the opinion that what might work for one, might not work for another since not everyone metabolizes their food the same way.
This photo was taken in June of '07. Although I'd gone down to about 190, I now had all this extraneous skin and flab.
If you don't exercise regularly, you tend to lose muscle tissue and retain fat.
Since I have a workout buddy, Andrew, and together we do weight training on Monday, Wednesday and Friday and Cardio on Tuesday and Thursday.
Thanks to this regimen, the extraneous stuff is going away.
Some things that worked for me...
Decide the minimum amount of calories your body requires each day to maintain your activity level. Divide that into 5 or 6 meals each day, never allowing yourself to feel hungry. When you feel hungry, your body goes into "famine" mode and stores whatever you eat as fat at the expense of lean muscle tissue.
Each morning, I begin the day with some simple exercises and then reward myself with a milkshake made up of a glass of 2% milk with one measure of whey protein supplement (chocolate flavored), 1/2 banana and occasionally a raw egg all whipped up in a blender.
This kicks the metabolism into high gear and helps use your food efficiently while giving more energy throughout the day.
Sudo is right about the sardines, but I personally prefer the little fish steaks (herring) in Louisiana hot sauce.
I go to the baby food aisle and buy the little finger meat sticks. Thery're low calorie, high protein and don't have all the salt and msg that is in Vienna sausages...and taste a LOT better.
I only use olive oil and REAL butter for cooking and salads etc.
Peanuts, avacados, hard boiled eggs, apple cider vinegar, canned salmon, and red peppers are your friends. Enjoy them.
You lost all that weight by going low carb it appears ("sugar, white flour, pasta, white rice, potatoes etc.") but then you talk about determining calorie requirements. I don't know if you've ever read one of Dr. Atkins' books but he advocates counting calories too in cases where the weight isn't coming off fast enough by just counting carbs. Weight loss and gain basically comes down to calories don't you think? That's why I think some people do great on programs like Weight Watchers.
And if you read the link in my first post you'll see that the low carb diet was also the one that had the fewest people sticking with it for the whole 2 years. Some people just have to have their sweets and starches. But the evidence is mounting in study after study that the carbs are the real killers... not fat. Oh, there is one killer fat... trans fat. It is very very deadly and is probably the number one reason that we've had the heart attack epidemic starting in the early 20th century, IMO!!
Key in use of whole grains (instead of sugar/white flour/white rice) is that there is fiber (which, besides aiding in food bulk getting through the entire digestive system help tremendously in feeling satisfied that you've eaten what you need to eat) in addition to the increased nutrition/vitamins.
Essentially, I focus on getting enough protein daily (which is critical in developing and maintaining muscle mass, said mass being critical to enhanced metabolism). I basically gave up junk food which is generally far too high in both carbs and fats.
For breakfast, I use skim milk with whey protein for my shake. Regardless, the 5-6 meals spread out through the day and making sure to get the breakfast in to start out the day are the most important aspects of the plan.
I DO eat fresh fruit everyday, much of which is high in carbs but also high in fiber and vitamins/minerals.
Contrary to popular opinion a low carb diet (you're right Cynic.. I meant Atkins) should not be a meat and cheese diet. What you give up are unhealthy starches.. potatoes, corn, flour products etc. What you should be doing is eating the healthy low carb vegetables.. Brussels sprouts, asparagus, broccoli, cauliflower, spinach, greens, zucchini or other squashes etc... salads I can go on and on but Man... I'm talking high nutrition. Low carb especially when combined with the Mediterranean diet (add olive oil and lots of fish instead of red meat) is very very healthy, IMO.
The problem is that the Atkins diet everyone I know has gone on is basically bacon, cheese, hamburgers with no buns or condiments, and occasionally steak. The diet you mention is definitely the way to go, but I think most people won't or can't do it for various reasons. My "diet" (in the scientific term, not an attempt to lose weight) is basically what you described. The only difference is that I eat a lot of fruit, and a fair amount of dairy too. I can modify it some to where I can lose weight, but I have less energy with it so I'm fine with my stable diet that I'm on now.
You guys probably have already seen this as the low carb diet STILL wins in all the studies. Click HERE! for the link. The American Heart Association just can't admit its been wrong all these years with their low fat theory. But study after study has confirmed that Adkins was right all along. And the best part? There are no calorie restrictions on the low carb diet like there are on the Mediterranean and low fat diets.
I agree with all that's been said about low simple carb diet. I'm a sugar addict for sure, it's hard to break, but once broken there is a new feeling I get. I'm going to set a date to end all white sugar and dig into the whole grains and high protein vege's like beans and cauliflower. Since I'm a semi-vegetarian (still eat fish and eggs and dairy) it's tough, but I like tofu better then I did 10 years ago so it's possible.
I have to say the American fast food situation is mostly poison, the only places I can get a decent lunch is Subways or Chinese food (yum General Tso's Tofu)
You're right about the ketosis. During the induction phase of a strict Atkins diet the body usually does go into ketosis. I think its a valid concern too though it doesn't seem to hurt anything in the short run. After induction, though enough carbs are allowed to avoid ketosis.
Rocky... pasta is one of those refined processed carbohydrates. I think its precisely those kinds of carbs that are the problem in the usual cases of obesity. The typical pasta is made from bleached white flour and doesn't contain just a whole lot of nutrition, IMO.
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waterbuffalo
Suda, I agree with you.
I was thin most of my life. I rarely ate carbs or sweets.
Now, I'm 20 lbs. heavier. Now, I eat carbs and sweets.
For some reason, I can't quit eating carbs and sweets. :)
They really are comfort food.
I know I need to stop, but can't seem to do it for more than a couple of days.
Thanks for the info. It really works for people who want to lose weight.
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Rocky
Perhaps, good doctor, to properly evaluate your claim, you could give us some numbers... like what is your before/after weight and body composition percentages?
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hiway29
The low carb diet certainly works. Can't argue with Sudo's results !
In my case, I went from 220 to 175 in 2 years by cutting out fast food, soda, and huge portions. Otherwise, I ate anything, including carbs ,in moderation. I can occasionally have pancakes on Sunday morning, without beating myself up or gaining the weight back.
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Rocky
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Twinky
This is the only diet I've ever tried and I did it for a month or so because I really wanted to get into a dress I'd bought. And for a few months before. I'd slothed around and not taken my usual exercise but continued to eat as if still vigorously exercising. I was shocked at how fast the weight disappeared, including that little football that sits just below the belt (!).
I am not naturally a fat person and have weighed pretty much the same since I was about 20 - well I weighed 9 1/2 stone before I went in the Corps, put on an extra 8lb there and got to 10 stone (140 lb) and thought my face looked better at that. So that's where I hover, give or take 8lb.
What I missed on the Atkins diet was eating fresh fruit, of which I eat loads, but apart from berries the dieter can't eat much fruit especially in the early stages.
From what I've heard, the carbo promoters have been hijacked by the flour and sugar producers. So what are they going to promote? Carbs, one way or the other.
It might not be so good for other things, though depending on the state of one's arteries.
But then, diabetes from too many carbs, or furred-up arteries from too much fat...choose your poison.
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Belle
Gary Taubes book "Good Calories, Bad Calories" lays out the scientific proof that low carb is by far the healthiest diet - especially for cholesterol, heart disease and diabetes. He also lays out the ego, political maneuvering, intimidation and foul play that prevents the low carb diet from being prescribed and promoted the way it should be.
In case you're not into the book, here's one of his great articles on the same thing: "What if It's All Been a Big Fat Lie?"
Way to go, Doc!! Lookin' Good!
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Mister P-Mosh
One study doesn't make it completely true. While there is definitely a need to reduce carbs tremendously, that doesn't necessarily make the Atkins diet (e.g. only meat and cheese) the healthiest diet, nor the best way to lose weight and keep it off. There is a need for more tests, and more clarifications. From what I read about the recent study, they did a low carb diet, using lots of lean meats. So in effect, the diet they tested was both low carb and low fat, which is quite significant.
The most amazing thing about the study, which is a positive thing, is that the low carb diet reduces cholesterol levels extremely fast. Still, more tests, especially ones that are controlled more, need to be done before we can completely say what is causing the results that were gained in this study.
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Belle
P-Mosh, they've been done - that's what Taub's book documents - lots of tests going back to the 1800's have been done that prove it much better and with much more dramatic results than the one study that's getting so much attention. :)
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pawtucket
I'm doing a medically supervised diet using OptiFast shakes. The 6 shakes a day give you all of your daily nourishments. I drink at least a half gallon of liquid a day and am limited to 12 oz of caffeine a day. It is less than 1000 calories a day. www.optifast.com
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Cynic
Sudo,
I suppose you meant Atkins, rather than "Adkins," but, assuming you are avoiding milk due to milk's carb calories, do you happen to know how your bone density is holding up?
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Sudo
Belle,
Thanks for the compliment! And good link to Gary Taubes book. I haven't read it but its the gist of what I really had in mind when I started this thread.. What if the conventional wisdom (low fat is healthy) is wrong? What if its all a big fat lie? In answer to Rocky, my numbers are very similar to Highway29's... I lost 65-70lbs, my good cholesterol went way up and my bad cholesterol plummeted! I went from 225 down to about 165lbs. That was 4years ago and the very important thing is this.. I had KEPT it off! I've gained back nearly 10lbs this year though because I got really sloppy about the carbs. I'm back in low carb mode again now to get back where I was. Then I can slack off a little bit if I really want to. Thing is, though.. I LIKE low carb for the most part.
Contrary to popular opinion a low carb diet (you're right Cynic.. I meant Atkins) should not be a meat and cheese diet. What you give up are unhealthy starches.. potatoes, corn, flour products etc. What you should be doing is eating the healthy low carb vegetables.. Brussels sprouts, asparagus, broccoli, cauliflower, spinach, greens, zucchini or other squashes etc... salads I can go on and on but Man... I'm talking high nutrition. Low carb especially when combined with the Mediterranean diet (add olive oil and lots of fish instead of red meat) is very very healthy, IMO.
But this is a thread for discussion.. does anyone see things differently or are we all in agreement here?
sudo
P.S. I eat a lot of sardines, Cynic. The small ones with the bones that are too tiny to taste. That not only gives me all the omega3's that I need but 25% of my daily calcium as well. In addition I take only one supplement.. two Calcium and vitamin D tablets a day.
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Cynic
Sudo,
I don't know if your response is sound, but it does seem reasonable. I am provisionally inclined, however, to give the American Heart Association and what seems the prevalent position in nutritional education more credence than I give the Atkins advocates -- not that a consensus among dietary authorities ultimately settles the questions about the Atkins diet or other dietary approaches.
Dentists!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-BA9VkiYy8
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Rocky
I checked out Taubes's book at the library the other day.... I'm not sure I need to read all the studies, but do want to get to the summaries thereof.
btw, one of the clinical nutritionists at the VA medical center here in Phoenix, when I asked her about Taubes's book (this week), said I was the third person who had done so very recently. She said she has the book and hasn't begun reading it.
To me, that says she's open minded about it. When I get feedback from her, I'll let y'all know.
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dmiller
I've talked about this diet before here at Grease Spot, concerning two of the clients that live at the group home I work at. They (both males) are 5' 2", are victims of Prader-Willie Syndrome, and both used to weigh 400 (plus) pounds. Currently --- both weigh in at 133 (or thereabouts), after 14 years of MEASURED meals, with NO sweets, and only diet soda WITH (minimal) exercise 4 times a week -- they are where they are today.
Carbs, protein, and veggies (along with fruit) are allowed in their daily diet.
It's the measurements that count. NOT saying this will work for all ----- >>>
But it did for them, and their condition is genetic, so they really can't help it,
but overcame it regardless.
Just a thot.
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Ron G.
In December of 2005, I went for my 6 month cardiologist visit. I had to wait a long time, so out of boredom, I snuck out to the local store and picked up a couple donuts and a cappuccino. I came back and munched them contentedly until they called me. When I went in for my obligatory pre appointment weigh in and BP/temp check, I weighed in at 320 lbs.
320 lbs!!??!!
That was a huge shock to me. 320 lbs!
I realized it was time to either make some serious changes or get fitted for a coffin made from a piano box. My cardiologist, although sympathetic, was no help at all as he's about 5'8" in every direction.
I waddled home and made some serious decisions and changes.
After eliminating sugar, white flour, pasta, white rice, potatoes etc., I weighed about 270 in this photo.
Since then, I've lost about 90 lbs and weighed in this morning at 182.
I explored many options, including the Atkins diet and learned all I could learn about nutrition and how it applied to me, since I'm of the opinion that what might work for one, might not work for another since not everyone metabolizes their food the same way.
This photo was taken in June of '07. Although I'd gone down to about 190, I now had all this extraneous skin and flab.
If you don't exercise regularly, you tend to lose muscle tissue and retain fat.
Since I have a workout buddy, Andrew, and together we do weight training on Monday, Wednesday and Friday and Cardio on Tuesday and Thursday.
Thanks to this regimen, the extraneous stuff is going away.
Some things that worked for me...
Decide the minimum amount of calories your body requires each day to maintain your activity level. Divide that into 5 or 6 meals each day, never allowing yourself to feel hungry. When you feel hungry, your body goes into "famine" mode and stores whatever you eat as fat at the expense of lean muscle tissue.
Each morning, I begin the day with some simple exercises and then reward myself with a milkshake made up of a glass of 2% milk with one measure of whey protein supplement (chocolate flavored), 1/2 banana and occasionally a raw egg all whipped up in a blender.
This kicks the metabolism into high gear and helps use your food efficiently while giving more energy throughout the day.
Sudo is right about the sardines, but I personally prefer the little fish steaks (herring) in Louisiana hot sauce.
I go to the baby food aisle and buy the little finger meat sticks. Thery're low calorie, high protein and don't have all the salt and msg that is in Vienna sausages...and taste a LOT better.
I only use olive oil and REAL butter for cooking and salads etc.
Peanuts, avacados, hard boiled eggs, apple cider vinegar, canned salmon, and red peppers are your friends. Enjoy them.
Just some random thoughts.
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Sudo
Ron,
You lost all that weight by going low carb it appears ("sugar, white flour, pasta, white rice, potatoes etc.") but then you talk about determining calorie requirements. I don't know if you've ever read one of Dr. Atkins' books but he advocates counting calories too in cases where the weight isn't coming off fast enough by just counting carbs. Weight loss and gain basically comes down to calories don't you think? That's why I think some people do great on programs like Weight Watchers.
And if you read the link in my first post you'll see that the low carb diet was also the one that had the fewest people sticking with it for the whole 2 years. Some people just have to have their sweets and starches. But the evidence is mounting in study after study that the carbs are the real killers... not fat. Oh, there is one killer fat... trans fat. It is very very deadly and is probably the number one reason that we've had the heart attack epidemic starting in the early 20th century, IMO!!
sudo
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doojable
For the record, you are talking simple carbohydrates and not complex? And favoring whole grain over processed grain?
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Ron G.
For the record, you are absolutely correct.
Notice I said WHITE rice, flour etc.
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Rocky
I've done similarly to Ron... have lost 90 lbs.
Key in use of whole grains (instead of sugar/white flour/white rice) is that there is fiber (which, besides aiding in food bulk getting through the entire digestive system help tremendously in feeling satisfied that you've eaten what you need to eat) in addition to the increased nutrition/vitamins.
Essentially, I focus on getting enough protein daily (which is critical in developing and maintaining muscle mass, said mass being critical to enhanced metabolism). I basically gave up junk food which is generally far too high in both carbs and fats.
For breakfast, I use skim milk with whey protein for my shake. Regardless, the 5-6 meals spread out through the day and making sure to get the breakfast in to start out the day are the most important aspects of the plan.
I DO eat fresh fruit everyday, much of which is high in carbs but also high in fiber and vitamins/minerals.
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Mister P-Mosh
The problem is that the Atkins diet everyone I know has gone on is basically bacon, cheese, hamburgers with no buns or condiments, and occasionally steak. The diet you mention is definitely the way to go, but I think most people won't or can't do it for various reasons. My "diet" (in the scientific term, not an attempt to lose weight) is basically what you described. The only difference is that I eat a lot of fruit, and a fair amount of dairy too. I can modify it some to where I can lose weight, but I have less energy with it so I'm fine with my stable diet that I'm on now.
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Seth R.
I agree with all that's been said about low simple carb diet. I'm a sugar addict for sure, it's hard to break, but once broken there is a new feeling I get. I'm going to set a date to end all white sugar and dig into the whole grains and high protein vege's like beans and cauliflower. Since I'm a semi-vegetarian (still eat fish and eggs and dairy) it's tough, but I like tofu better then I did 10 years ago so it's possible.
I have to say the American fast food situation is mostly poison, the only places I can get a decent lunch is Subways or Chinese food (yum General Tso's Tofu)
Seth
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ChasUFarley
You're basically putting your body into ketosis with this, aren't you?
Wouldn't that mean liver and kidney problems later on??
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Rocky
Yes.
That's why I don't do Atkins... but do refrain from the simple sugars/starches. I use only whole grain bread.
It's important to recognize also that pasta is NOT simply a high carb food. It's also a significant source of plant based protein.
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Sudo
Chas,
You're right about the ketosis. During the induction phase of a strict Atkins diet the body usually does go into ketosis. I think its a valid concern too though it doesn't seem to hurt anything in the short run. After induction, though enough carbs are allowed to avoid ketosis.
Rocky... pasta is one of those refined processed carbohydrates. I think its precisely those kinds of carbs that are the problem in the usual cases of obesity. The typical pasta is made from bleached white flour and doesn't contain just a whole lot of nutrition, IMO.
sudo
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