Tall order DWBH - since I am not a medical or mental professional (I suppose some who know me would argue about the mental part) - I can only respond in part - perhaps more in contrast to your later successes and compare them to what I saw as frustrating failures. In my opinion there was a double whammy. People were being increasingly abused and the "clergy" (yes I admit it) had little, if any, real counseling skills.
For brevity I will snip out your text which I am not competent to reply to and intersperse where I think I have valid comments or opinions.
back in march, 1972, as a "new student" in my first advanced class, taught live by vic, i first heard vic's "spiritual summation" of the field of psychiatry/psychology.......he made the following statement, "psychiatry and the so-called 'science' of psychology, was born in a seance"!........
I remember that well and concur with your experiences (snipped - can be read in your original post.
during my in-rez corps "training", the only "pastoral" responsibilities vic taught us way corps as a group, were how to perform weddings and funerals........the concept of "pastoral" or "christian" counseling was never introduced or even mentioned! .......the only kind of "counseling" we were ever exposed to was via the advanced class or the several advanced class "specials" which were taught at "summer school" in 1974, 1975, and 1976, on "word of knowledge", "word of wisdom", and "discerning of spirits", respectively!.......and, as the quote recounted above demonstrates, vic regarded the fields of psychiatry and psychology with utter disdain and condescending disgust.......teaching basically, that both fields were "of the devil", and not to be relied upon to provide anything of benefit to "god's people"!
I generally concur - however by the time I was in my second in-rez year the 6th C and 6th FC persons you refer to above had developed a early curriculum. It is certainly true however that Vic never taught us anything more than weddings and funerals. And it is my opinion that even that was flawed. How did we do pre-marital counseling? Well it started with sitting down with the couple and explaining how holy marriage was and that for a successful marriage they had to "stand on the word" (read support TWI no matter what). Then we addressed the men - explaining how they must "nurture" their wives to be - how she is a crown, etc etc and he is the leader. Then we addressed the women and explained how they are so wonderfully made and explain that their job is to be submissive to their husbands to be - their leaders. Sound at all like a set up for later abuse to anyone here? Funerals were not much better, if at all. Someone has a family member die - but not all of the family has "had the class." However, we preach a glorious (ALWAYS THE SAME REPETITION) funeral message about the love of god and the great return. While that may be valid - it sure doesn't provide much comfort to those who had not "HAD THE CLASS." So we console them and explain that there is a CLASS that will make them whole. Sound like a setup for swelling the ranks to anyone here?
this presented those men, and myself with a huge ethical dilemma!........what to do with the confidential doctor/patient "information" that was now beginning to come out of these previously secure "lockboxes"? ........each of us had legal and professional responsibilities to maintain and protect the absolute "right to privacy" and confidentiality of the patients/clients who were receiving professional services from us!.......yet, as corps grads, and "clergy", we each felt a distinct, moral and "spiritual" obligation to confront those who were responsible for the severe psychoemotional and "spiritual" trauma inflicted on this now growing number of victims of physical and sexual abuse!
And that (the above) should have been the dilemma of all "clergy." We had people sitting at our kitchen tables "pouring their hearts out". It should have been kept private. The difference is that you had already established your relationships with above mentioned professionals. I had not. What I discovered was that for all of my fancy title, I was woefully inadequate to really help people in truly dire positions. Thank you for establishing what you folks did.
what do you think?.................................................peace.
What do I think? I think you summed it up pretty darned well. My $0.02
I think that must have been brewing inside of you for a VERY long time.
I see a capacity for empathy and compassion in you that has burdened you and caused that confusion and chaos you described... I say that because I believe the confusion and chaos came from the conflict of genuine humanity (that empathy and compassion) with the unparalleled exposure you had to the inner workings of a very sick organization.
I believe you witnessed incredible narcissism that, for a long time you couldn't understand because of what wierwille built into that organization and taught as its philosophical underpinnings (his version of "truth" -- a mixture of convoluted interpretation of the bible with his self-serving rationalization of what freedom in Christ would mean in the organization). And that observation -- the capacity to recognize it for what it genuinely was -- caused you great anguish. Anguish that perhaps made you wonder at times if it was even worth it to be capable of seeing it.
I believe your description of the increasing need for legitimate counseling because of what came with the increasing numbers of followers of TWI/wierwille is right on the mark. And how wierwille eschewed the necessary training/understanding of the fields of psychiatry/psychology and related social work and other mental health disciplines underscores the blatant narcissism which was the root of the evil in wierwille's organization.
I say this from my observations, my studies, and my reflections which are NOT those of a mental health professional.
But when I actually committed myself to getting through college, at least to get a bachelor's degree, I craved the insights I was able glean from social science and humanities classes... and later took upon myself to read a number of books that some might consider pop psychology, but for me helped me understand more about what goes on inside my head and heart.
So, there you have it... that's my take.
Oh... and I forgot to mention that you neglected to cite wierwille as a verbal and emotional abuser of both men and women. This I know from experience... having observed and personally been the target of some of it at a couple of points in the year I spent at Emporia.
.....needless to say, our twi-world was disintegrating before us, and, as corps grads, "clergy", etc., we did'nt know what to do
... these have been hours spent in developing and protecting professional, therapeutic relationships with fellow human beings who still wear the scars ...
recently, on another thread, someone demanded to know why i did'nt just "call the cops"?, rather than resort to "just" comforting the wounded?
Too bad that thread on how there is little censorship at GSC got completely censored ... all 350 or so posts. But that is not what I said. But I did say, in the end, that was the ONLY right thing to do. Keeping it in the household was wrong ... nothing stopped ...
I said I understood, given the cult dynamics, that protecting the movement of the word and the ministry took priority. ... I copied some of those pages, maybe I can pull up a more accurate quote.
how utterly shallow and compassionless a question! .......imho, a question easily blurted out by those whose willful ignorance of the profound personal suffering experienced by so many, along with a haughty lack of sincere concern for the psychoemotional terror and pain these fellow humans endured at the hands of their "christian leaders"! apparently, those who would ask such a question have no concept of what professional, therapeutic relationships are.......how fragile those relationships are.......how difficult they are to build and maintain.......and, most importantly, how absolutely necessary it is to protect and defend those relationships in order for them to succeed!
I guess I'm still shallow ... what in the world do you mean ... what professional or therapeutic relationships would have been harmed if vic had been taken to court? None of those people were willing to testify .. with some exhortation? What of the thirteen that got together to confront vp?
So let the abuse continue for years ... with the rationalization of protecting what exactly? Relationships?
I'm detecting gross denial ... that is what I think .. so far ...
Too bad that thread on how there is little censorship at GSC got completely censored ... all 350 or so posts. But that is not what I said. But I did say, in the end, that was the ONLY right thing to do. Keeping it in the household was wrong ... nothing stopped ...
I said I understood, given the cult dynamics, that protecting the movement of the word and the ministry took priority. ... I copied some of those pages, maybe I can pull up a more accurate quote.
I guess I'm still shallow ... what in the world do you mean ... what professional or therapeutic relationships would have been harmed if vic had been taken to court? None of those people were willing to testify .. with some exhortation? What of the thirteen that got together to confront vp?
So let the abuse continue for years ... with the rationalization of protecting what exactly? Relationships?
I'm detecting gross denial ... that is what I think .. so far ...
Mark? Care to comment? Just bill GSC ...
I'm sure you're not simply accepting that you're doomed to an existence as a shallow individual... frankly, my impression is that from where DWBH was in the organization and in his personal journey, there are other things that probably would have been important in order for him or others at that time to have successfully gotten law enforcement involved...
First, it would have taken someone who was NOT just beginning to figure it all out. Second, that someone with some background to understand the legal/organizational/emotional issues would have been critical in being able to keep it from being completely covered up... because it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that twi would have immediately gone into VERY INTENSE damage control mode...
and we've had several accounts, from different people as to what twi was capable of doing when "circling the wagons."
There are many reasons why many people did not act more boldly ... "it was a cult" is a decent summary.
I don't believe confidentiality is a valid one ... people went to an authority for help to stop the abuse ... even for a certified counselor, continued abuse would have to be stopped. For a corporate executive ... even more so ...
This may come up in another cult some day ... might as well get the story straight.
Actually I don't know the psychiatrist I guess .. I knew the psychologist ... also sixth corps, lived around HQ, last name started with a C ... so I figured that was who he meant ... pretty sure he was not a psychiatrist.
There are many reasons why many people did not act more boldly ... "it was a cult" is a decent summary.
I don't believe confidentiality is a valid one ... people went to an authority for help to stop the abuse ... even for a certified counselor, continued abuse would have to be stopped. For a corporate executive ... even more so ...
This may come up in another cult some day ... might as well get the story straight.
Actually I don't know the psychiatrist I guess .. I knew the psychologist ... also sixth corps, lived around HQ, last name started with a C ... so I figured that was who he meant ... pretty sure he was not a psychiatrist.
As used by DWBH, confidentiality is an issue of codes of professional conduct subject to licensing regulation. It's not an option.
Thanks for standing up for what is right. I respect all those who have continued to learn and help others be whole and healthy emotionally and in their minds. I can confirm any form of counseling training did not exist in WC training later than the time periods you mentioned that I have been familiar with. I don't want to narrow down dates too much at this point.
Rhino, so as to not derail this thread, I've answered you on your thread. :)
DWBH, you're right. I try to remember that y'all were just kids... kids with no formal training and thrown into some pretty intense, serious and dire situations with little to no training or experience helping people with real live "life or death" situations. It had to be rough and very disconcerting. What vee pee taught sounds good in theory, but doesn't work in real life.... Where's Oakspear? His signature used to say,
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is"
There are some horrible tales of people getting wrong or no professional help for issues that clearly needed it.
I used to wonder how Dottie Moynihan sleeps at night. She has counseled many women raped by vee pee and craig and other leaders and she continues to support and cover for those evil wolves in sheep's clothing.... her husband, too.
Thanks so much, DWBH for this thread. I have more to share, but it's waaaayyyy past my bedtime.
As used by DWBH, confidentiality is an issue of codes of professional conduct subject to licensing regulation. It's not an option.
Yet, earlier in the timeline he described, I got the impression it was an issue of them still trying to sort it all out... again, at that time, DWBH and most of the rest of them were still VERY young to have this all develop in their midst as it were.
Pastoring and the role of a pastor is a topic I've nibbled at quite a bit here, DW. It's what informs most of how I've evaluated my years of direct participation in the Way.
Your point of confidentialty is of the highest importance. When I have no clear freedom to speak on another's behalf where privacy is a concern (and when isn't it?) I don't have the right to speak. Period. Where there's been privileged access to another's life it's part of the charge to protect them by not allowing that information to be made public.
A lot of things can be said - at what cost? This isn't "lockbox" stuff, this is common sense. Or should be. The fact it's clearly required for medical professionals upholds the obvious truth that privilege carries responsibility.
Going public, going to court over anything is a difficult business. rhino, as I know you know. I think your question and concern can be answered by the actual facts - no one until Paul Allen determined to go to court against any of the people mentioned, throughout the entire history of the Way we're referencing.
I'm not looking at that from the viewpoint of what DWBH's stating - I'm just looking at the facts. If these things happened and if people were involved at different times, different people and different circumstances and no one ever chose to publicly address the events in public or in a public court by bringing legal claims and grievances against them - there have to be reasons.
One reason would be they were encouraged not to. We've been over that ground. But there may not be one single reason or one that goes back to DWBH or anyone specifically.
It may actually be more of a matter of how well the people themselves were able to deal with it. I can't say that for sure and clearly not for everyone. Going to court, publicly stating not just "what's going on" but "what went on with me", and all of the details would be difficult for someone. I don't have to be understanding to see that - the history speaks to it. Those who could, didn't. They moved on, over, along with, whatever but they chose not to.
Doing so publicly without bringing forth the names and faces of the people involved would have been ill advised - claims without names don't go far. IMO it would be wrong to drag people out into the open against their will, or if they were going to be hurt more by the cure than the disease.
That doesn't offer a simple answer and still leaves the entire topic up in the air - which is where it will remain IMO, when dealing with generalities. Any specifics are at the discretion of those involved.
In your comments I hear "you can't tell me there wasn't a way that these people couldn't have been taken to court and stopped" by those who knew. But - that's in fact what happened, they didn't, immediately and they weren't immediately. DWBH describes circumstances that include more than himself or others in his role - it describes the people themselves who were involved. Why didn't they just say to he ll with it and do it? Even if they were told not to? Even if they were afraid? Even if they thought something bad would happen as a result?
It's a three sided coin. Could everyone have done better, done more, done something? I think you have to factor in that - mahy of the people in the Way didn't want to see the whole thing come crashing down around them, even when they were victims of others. They wanted it to work and they wanted it to be right. I'm guessing but I've gotten the feeling over the years that some of those who "could have" didn't because they simply didn't want to go through the personal turmoil and hardship that would result. They preferred privaciy, at a cost perhaps, but privacy nonetheless.
I was corps. My only "training" was from the in rez class "Competent to Counsel."
Looking back it strikes me how inadequate that was. Training? Training? From a two week class with no practicum? (Or was that supposed to be our interim year?)
I guess I'm still shallow ... what in the world do you mean ... what professional or therapeutic relationships would have been harmed if vic had been taken to court? None of those people were willing to testify .. with some exhortation? What of the thirteen that got together to confront vp?
So let the abuse continue for years ... with the rationalization of protecting what exactly? Relationships? .
If I understand the doctor/patient confidentiality relationship correctly, a doctor is bound by an oath (and the law) to keep a patient's details private and confidential. Same goes for therapeutic health professionals and attorneys. The "relationship" being referred to is legal and binding.
How do you suppose Vic would have been taken to court?
Neither the clergy nor the professionals had any legal standing in the matter. They could not have initiated a suit. Add to that the fact that they had the trust of these women (and some men I presume.)
It's hard enough to get a rape victim to speak up and testify. How much harder would it be if that meant the victim were to go up against a man she called her Father in der verd," or MOG? Much much harder if she believed that speaking up would win her the title, "possessed."
I don't know who you mean by "the thirteen" (were they a tribe?) but I'm fairly certain your list includes at least one man who admitted later on that he was guilty of the sexual stuff.
Just how does he go to court to sue vp if he's partaken in his wrongdoing?
Regarding warning folks out on the field?- How? Using the "Way Phone Tree"? How would this information get back through the ranks without being sanitized? How many "dirty hands" would it have passed through before it hit an area?
I was never corps or never clergy but being a formerly sold out rock solid wafer I can understand the psychological maelstrom that I had to fight through (at times still fighting through)
Wierwilles narcississtic personality and own psychological makeup of needing complete control and just dictating to people 'der verd' as the complete answer to everything had to have been a prime reason why he was so against psychology --resulting in his bogus doctrines regarding it that were taken as gospel.
It was something he feared --and rightfully--Why would he want anyone --even himself ---peering into his dark mangy soul --or even thinking about it? He could be "righteous now" as if by magic without any of the genuine work involved of actually dealing, struggling or being responsible for his darker side.
The struggles and dilemmas you described are real to the human condition and are exactly the time when humans, clergy or otherwise, need to be able to dig very deep. It certainly helps a great deal if someone with genuine pastoral qualities is open and nearby, but doctrinally that was all but verboten in wayworld-and if some had natural pastoral 'gifts' it either was undeveloped or just plain quashed.
Most of us, (well i can really speak only for me, although I do observe people attitudes here at GS) due to our close and lengthy involvement still carry a model of clergy based somewhat on what was seen in The Way--(nothing against the good people who were ordained) but I think the entire model was completely bogus and based greatly on Wierwilles distorted and selfcentered world and human view. The distortion was so immense that it still gets carried through
My work brings me into contact with many clergy of different established denominations that have never been in , or for the most part never heard of TWI. Its very common and in some denominations and sometimes a prerequiste to not only be trained in many forms of pastoral counseling (not by hearing someone elses interpretation of one fundamentalist book!) and remain over very lengthy periods in some sort of counseling or spiritual direction.
Knowing some of them very closely over a period of many years, I can say that some of them have genuine pastoral gifts that have been developed through years of searching and counselling, that go far beyond anything in TWI --or wouldve ever been possible in that environment.
As far as what God or Jesus thinks---To me thats still part of the Way think that was part of the whole screwed up package---I wouldnt be so presumptious to even pretend to know (that would be a good psych study in ego overinflation-- )
I do know its been provided and is a good tool
(I hope this is readable--all done in the morning grogs before coffee)
Another observation I had was that by encouraging the "lock-box" and casting such a dark light on psychologists, psychiatrists and other forms of truly competent and legitimate counselors, der victoid basically put any woman (or man) seeking help in a no-win situation. He cut them off at the knees. Add to that, that as time passed, more and more clergy were involved and you have what they call here in the South a "good ole boy" system.
Victims could very easily feel cornered. They couldn't go up the ranks or down. They couldn't go outside the household.
One more thing - Psychology and psychiatry were "born in a seance" but tricky vic allowed Competent to Counsel to be taught in rez. To me, that smacks as wanting to stack the deck in his favor.
i submit this thread as one of information, and civil discussion regarding the topic.......i invite all former twi "clergy" who post here to contribute their own, personal experiences and understanding of twi "doctrines and practices" regarding the "proper" methodology of "pastoral" or "christian" counselling they were taught, as well as any who graduated from twi's various way corps training programs.........also, all those with questions or personal experiences pertinent to the topic, please feel free to contribute!!............
however, as twi grew fairly rapidly during the decade of the 1970's and the early 1980's, the need for legitimate, professional counseling among the swelling ranks of the way corps, as well as the swelling ranks of twi outside the "root locales" became more and more obvious, indeed, even outright glaring!!........people with "problens" started coming out of the woodwork, and most were never "healed" outright by the "operation of the manifestations", let alone offered any legitimate, professional counseling of any kind!........
Yes, I remember being grossly underqualified to counsel anyone after graduating from the wc with only the Christian Counseling course with Jay Adams's book as the text, and as you mentioned corps classes on how to perform a wedding/funeral. Underqualified? No, actually unqualified to counsel anyone is the truth. That was/is one of my mantras here at gs. Thanks for exposing/discussing that with us here. It is nice to know someone higher up had a conscience and struggled to know what was the right thing to do at the time of my last years in rez.
at present, i place great value and confidence in the millions of licensed, professional psychiatrists, psychologists, psychiatric nurse practitioners, licensed clinical social workers,and the various other disciplines at work in our mental health care system.........i respect them greatly because of the incredible demands and stressors their chosen fields put on them personally, as well as their loved ones.........i respect them for doing their best to help those who need their services, in spite of severe "underfunding" in their areas of expertise........i have watched them touch the untouchable, reach the unreachable, and minster to the sick and suffering........i have rejoiced at their successes, and i have sorrowed with them at their failures.........i have also witnessed them stare down some of the most vile, insanely evil, and despicable characters you'd ever imagine could remain living........and do so non-judgementally and objectively despite the personal revulsion of what they're looking at!........i never saw vic, or twi, or any of twi's "trustees" through the years ever come close to any of that!!..........imo, twi stood diametrically opposed to professional, therapeutic relationships, then and now!...........but i never thought, nor do i think today, that god and/or jesus opposes them................what do you think?
I agree so much with this statement. My husband is a Crisis Counselor at a Clinical Support facility. He now only works per diem, but you know how that can go--
fulltime if you want it.
My son has a radio show that deals with current events and ministries in the Christian Sphere--he did a show on a group called "To Write Love on Her Arms" It was so interesting and since he was constantly wearing a shirt that said "To Write Love on Her Arms" we were interested in finding out more--after his show--which was amazing(Proud Mamma), we looked into it a bit more. This group offers support and services to CUTTERS.
Shortly after this, my husband got a very serious call from a young cutter X. He had at his fingertips all the services he needed to help X, because of this Christian group, who put together a great list of Christian AND Secular groups that work in this field. He also prayed with X--something he rarely does
on the phone--but this was a serious situation.He was moved to pray with her permission, and he was able to calm X--in ways that combined the love God has for X and the hope of services out there--
GOOD Christian ministries employ sound psychiatric services--the two are not mutually exclusive. Most people, Christian and Secular, that work in these fields at the local level --- the ones I know---are loving, caring souls--not in it for any glory---what a burn-out job it can be. My mom was a Psychiatric Nurse most of her 30 years nursing. She was choked-threatened, and thrown around more than once--and still went to work everyday loving the clients.
--It is insanity what TWI did to people. It has taken years for hubby and I to recover and we still have issues that crop up--boundries being one we are still dealing with.
BTW--I remember you FONDLY. I only dealt with you a few times, but you stood out to me as kind and genuine. I remember dealing with JAL at Emporia for the
Advanced Class-VP was there and I had a run in with him too. Then I came back to the WOW field and had to call you. Honestly, I remember thinking of the
differences between you all. I couldn't get off the phone--you were so interested in my WOW time. I almost told you about what happened at Emporia, but stopped myself. I figured I just wasn't spiritual enough. We were all victims of a sick cult--but I want you to know--you were very kind to me.
If this is a case study .... I think it should go beyond trying to evaluate DWBH or anyone ... the point is for people is similar situations NOW. They google and find this incident.
What should the GSC message be ... on the way to be a hero in your cult, when abuse/crimes are reported to you ... especially if you are in a position of authority..
Of course we were young, woefully unprepared, inadequate ... and programmed ... but given 20/20 hindsight ... what is the right response for those still enslaved in a cult?
I believe it is REQUIRED of professional counselors to contact authorities if crime/harm is ongoing or imminent.
But it doesn't seem people were just exposing this to get counseling, they were going to a TWI executive to get it stopped. They even went and got other witnesses/victims with the intent of confronting the offender/criminal.
My point about people on the field still sending money and people to this cesspool ... is that there were other victims ... there was a need to be honest with them as well.
How many were sent into the corps after this was revealed to senior management?
What is the correct response if this happens to an honest man in a senior management position in a cult today? Women come to him ... ready to confront their mog ...
Incredibly interesting thread, DWBH, thank you. And I thank you for your personal disclosures, while still keeping professional confidences. Your account of confronting Wierwille and being threatened by the dog are just riveting.
I also recall Dr. SL and his wonderful wife from my in-rez year '79-'80. He was probably one of the most intelligent Way believers I ever knew when I was in, and both he and his wife were incredibly kind. I am so glad that he was able to use his expertise to help some of those who were abused, and that he was able to mentor people like you into becoming truly competent counselors beyond just reading a book.
Yes, I took the "Competent to Counsel" course. Having recently completed my masters in something relatively innocuous (library science), I can't fathom that anyone with an advanced degree (VPW, DEW) could have really believed that a couple of weeks would make us competent to do anything.
The crux of Jay Adam's book and the class, if I recall, was to bring people to the absolutes of Scripture and confront them of their sin. (Rereading the intro to the book on GoogleBooks reinforces my impression.) In TWI, that became a super-instant approach, and we were encouraged to use our "spiritual perception and awareness" to confront everyone with The Word, as if the wrongdoers would suddenly smack themselves upside the head and go, "Wow, you're right! I will change my ways!" I think mstar nailed it when he said
Wierwilles narcississtic personality and own psychological makeup of needing complete control and just dictating to people 'der verd' as the complete answer to everything had to have been a prime reason why he was so against psychology --resulting in his bogus doctrines regarding it that were taken as gospel.
It usually didn't work, in part because we didn't know what we were doing, and in part because we didn't take the time to build a trusted relationship with the counselees where eventually they could be guided to the place of understanding what had happened to them and how they should proceed. We were supposed to take that sword of the spirit and hack them to pieces with it.
Regards,
-- Shaz
PS: And go easy on yourself, DW. You knew you couldn't break confidence with your counselees, both because it would breach professional ethics and because it might do more harm to the victims to go public. You went right to Vic and to his top people, and got nowhere. Making any kind of public statement would probably have been spun by Vic and you would have been just another "copped out" believer.
corps placements were a month later.......as i had been for the last 7 years, so i again would be in the BRC with a room full of liars, adulterers, drunks, serial sexual predators, thieving, weasel bastards!........
the scary thing.. how many of this crowd are off on their own, running a cult, basking in mog worship.. thinking vic's "legacy" to be something to be proud of.. an exclusive heritage.
Undoubtedly, some of them were abused as well..
I find it intriguing that many turned to momentus to try to close their wounds.. "kill the victim".. putting their mind on a closed loop of carefully crafted rationalizations..
What about these guys who thought that their way corpes education really did make them capable of diagnoing and treating mental illness.
I remember one time....a wtf? moment. When I had to deal with John Townsend over something...there were some serious issues with stuff going on on the wow field in our group....... I was fc, ap c and so was my bu tt was the one being questioned..
Well anyway, we had never really spent time one on one or talked much. But he goes into describing me as someone that went along for long periods of time really really high and up beat...but then when I crashed I was very very low....that I needed to recognize this in myself.....and I am thinking..WHAT??? When have we EVER spoken, that you would get that impression??? I think I had only been there a month or so.
Now...I understand that files were kept on all of us...I am guessing in hindsight, that some dufus had apparently taken it upon themselves to diagnose me...what kills me, is I never spent any amount of time with any OTHER state leader in order to have that determined either. Maybe it was be revelation or something..lol I don`t know
It is my understanding that licensed, legitimate health care professionals that are qualified to make that sort of assertion, generally spend time with a person in order to correctly diagnose these problems...
Shoot and once diagnosing one...wouldn`t it be prudent at least let the person in question KNOW that they are sick??
My point is, that in going through the corpes, people I knew seemed to think that they were competent to diagnose and treat people....I know someone that died because the warning signs were ignored, his problems not addressed.
It is very dangerous to think and act as if you are qualified. To discourage people from getting the real help that they need.
Get the wrong person trying to make themselves look impressive in their reports...and you have some pretty nasty insinuations that can follow you from state to state.
Several things strike me when I even hear a hint of 'why didn't she tell?' and 'why didn't you DO something' or 'why wasn't anyone held accountable?'
I don't have my license to provide therapy, yet. I have the years of college training and the leather bound piece of paper that I understand now isn't worth the paper the fancy degree is on if the victim isn't willing, or can't, or won't, or isn't willing or able to do the hardest part.
If a client, or anyone, come to even the highest of trained person and spills their guts, s/he, the victim has to do the hardest part and follow through with the assist they're asking for.
We can hollar at the helping professional forever and even when they do their legally required part in reporting a crime, if the victim won't press charges, or can't see it through, what are we supposed to do? Force them, put them over our shoulder and carry them to the police? Sit on them until they spill their guts?
Sometimes when a victim knows there are other victims, it's even harder for them to speak up. They often will look around and wonder "if they can hang in there, what's wrong with me?"
It doesn't make it right, it just is. Sometimes if we put ourselves in that place and really listen and really look, we might understand better.
If someone grows up in abuse from early age, that is their normal. Moving on to bigger and more isn't an issue for them, not telling isn't an issue for them.
If a client is sitting in my office and I say "you have to tell and I'll go with you" it won't matter unless they can find the massive strength to agree and then do it. I can call authorities and report a crime, encourage the victim to talk to them, but if they, for whatever reason, change their minds, decide not to prosecute, what other options are there?
As has been said here, the leaders entrusted with others' lives and hearts were as young or younger than the victims in many instances. When I was in my 20's, I barely had enough life experience to keep the rent paid, much less walk with someone through the court process and stick it out til the very end, which might be years away. I don't care how "spiritual" I was.
I defy anyone! to answer their phone one day and hear a friends voice on the other end say "I was just raped" and know exactly what to do. In ones gut, the first thing after "WHAT???" is most likely going to be 'you have to go to the cops'.
Uh huh, sure
That person knows what is ahead of them if they do, the person is psychologically, physically, emotionally destroyed, scared, might have been threatened or had their babies lives threatened, a host of other scary realities that are hurting as bad as the attack at that moment.
In all the fancy phych classes, we're taught things like "I'll be with you every step of the way" but ya better damn well mean it! Seriously have every!! intention of taking each and every painful humiliating step. We're taught to offer counseling and crisis groups, but if the victim doesn't show up, are we to go to their homes and drag them to their appointment?
I've heard "why, to sit around with other people who've been raped and listen to their stories?" The answer is, of course, yes, that's therapeutic but maybe not to THEM.
If there are more victims of the same rapist, all might not come forward. The one that does is told lovely things like we'll find the others, we'll get them to talk, we'll keep trying. A time or two, another of the victims garners strength from the vocal one and might peek in, but it's long in coming, often.
Tell a victim of abuse that you'll move heaven and hell to protect them and you might find yourself sitting in the defendants chair for victimizing your client, or at the very least, getting your a$$ chewed in a huge way by your boss for offering services the agency doesn't offter. And another a$$ chewing for making it harder for the police by telling the victim they'll provide protection when they don't.
Then not only have you pi$$ed off those that you need to help you in this messy journey, you're lost the trust of your client, the victim, who already has massive trust issues.
If Don or anyone else in his position has a line outside his office, where in the hell is he supposed to organize this mess? How is he to spend the time getting all the stories in some sort of order, get with everyone involved, get them to agree together, to get their poop in a group to feel strong enough to do the really hard part. When the dust clears, it isn't Don or the other helpers who will have to keep the ball rolling, it would be the victims.
One can understand the exhaustion and frustration of being helpless when one really honestly truly wants to help.
Also when leadership tells someone "you can call me anytime, day or night" how can s/he really mean this, in a place like twi? Shoot, one day the victim might call and the promise will be true, the next time, their friend in leadership has been moved in the night and evaporated. On the evaporated ones mind is the victim but how to contact them, especially when they've promised to keep closed mouth about it?
What should they do? Call and leave a message on the machine " Hi, XXXXXXX, this is Don, I'm sorry, I know I told you we'd talk tomorrow, but something has come up and I've been moved suddenly and unexpectedly and we won't be able to. Good luck to you"
Click
Or their spouse or room mate gets the message first, a person the victim hadn't figured out how to tell yet.
Yup, another person who said they'd help and didn't, what else is new. Not intentioned by the leader, of course not.
That is the reality.
So, the victim again feels denied, more and more trust is gone.
Now what? Wait a week until the branch meeting that introduces yet another leader, find them at the coffee pot alone and say "So and so was helping me with _________' listing the entire problem in 2 minutes.
And we're off................... again.
In the free world as helping professionals, we can encourage the victim and "do what we can" only to find out they've evaportated one night. What are we supposed to do then? Neglect others in our caseload to phone everyone the victim has ever mentioned and inquire as to their new address?
With children, yes, we are duty bound to report. So the caseworker does his/her visit and paperwork and the sweet scared little kid won't do it.
Now what?
It's extremely easy and convenient to offer any manner of "well I would have......".
If we've even tried to find the way through the sharp and ugly and dark maze of criminal justice in these highly emotional cases, then we can understand it's one of the most difficult mess of our lives.
Finally, in the 70's, people still didn't tell, wives were still in submission, kids were still suffering silently. If we think the resources are few and far between now, it's nothing compared to the slim pickin's in just information then.
It's better now, perhaps and sometimes, but not until and IF the victim is willing to do the hardest part. Blame can be placed in a million places, but the reality is that some leaders DID try to help, some victims DID come out and follow through.
To chew Don out 'cuz he was in some higher place than me is futile. I get the wierd thinking but none of us is/was more accountable than another. Either way we can't make people do what they don't want to do, are scared out of their minds to do. Personally, I don't care if it's Don or you or me or bubbastinky. We can not force another to do the hardest part of being a victim.
When a mama kills her babies or a daddy kills the entire family; the neighbors, family, friends, are often the first people's faces in CNN saying "I knew something was wrong, but didn't know what to do". Or the other side "I had no idea!"
When we had a guy in our twig that "smelled fishy" I dug out my love of digging stuff and seeing what crawled out and found out a ton of shi+ he was up to. Yup, involved kids and I started hollaring. The oldest story in the world, leadership took him into a room for several hours, and the next day he evaporated. That was an ugly conversation to have with the mama of one of his victims later. Mama took it further to the police, who did their thing. The smelly one called me and threatened my baby, I still supported the mama. Did I put my own child at risk for a stranger? YUP! Was I wrong to do that? YUP! But I was "leadership" and all that bullshi+ and I had to save all the world cuz God wanted me to.
Crap is what that is.
After some time, the fallout from this became too much for that sweet little boy.
We can look around our neighborhoods, our church, our schools and stats tell us that 1 out of 3 kids is being abused at home. What should we do, knock on doors and force everyone to tell if they are the one? I think the stats are the same for adult female victims of sexual assault? So, there are three women in my little family, one of my daughters might be the victim of a rape? Carry that around in the day and see how it feels.
As helping professionals we can only be there if and when the one does find the courage to ask for help, then brace ourselves for saying things like "I'm sorry, but your abuser/stalker/molester/rapist has rights".
To put the responsibility on leadership like Don then to bi+ch when he doesn't do it to our liking, or to like him only when he did/does what we think he should have is just ridiculous.
Or anyone! We never ever ever understand until we live it and have to put head to pillow at night with it still there, knowing we have to get up again tomorrow and keep doing it.
Burn out rate of child protection workers is about one year. Domestic Violence worker hang in there for maybe two before they start to crack around the edges.
That is WITH some training in a classroom, internships and practice on the field.
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RumRunner
Tall order DWBH - since I am not a medical or mental professional (I suppose some who know me would argue about the mental part) - I can only respond in part - perhaps more in contrast to your later successes and compare them to what I saw as frustrating failures. In my opinion there was a double whammy. People were being increasingly abused and the "clergy" (yes I admit it) had little, if any, real counseling skills.
For brevity I will snip out your text which I am not competent to reply to and intersperse where I think I have valid comments or opinions.
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Rocky
I think that must have been brewing inside of you for a VERY long time.
I see a capacity for empathy and compassion in you that has burdened you and caused that confusion and chaos you described... I say that because I believe the confusion and chaos came from the conflict of genuine humanity (that empathy and compassion) with the unparalleled exposure you had to the inner workings of a very sick organization.
I believe you witnessed incredible narcissism that, for a long time you couldn't understand because of what wierwille built into that organization and taught as its philosophical underpinnings (his version of "truth" -- a mixture of convoluted interpretation of the bible with his self-serving rationalization of what freedom in Christ would mean in the organization). And that observation -- the capacity to recognize it for what it genuinely was -- caused you great anguish. Anguish that perhaps made you wonder at times if it was even worth it to be capable of seeing it.
I believe your description of the increasing need for legitimate counseling because of what came with the increasing numbers of followers of TWI/wierwille is right on the mark. And how wierwille eschewed the necessary training/understanding of the fields of psychiatry/psychology and related social work and other mental health disciplines underscores the blatant narcissism which was the root of the evil in wierwille's organization.
I say this from my observations, my studies, and my reflections which are NOT those of a mental health professional.
But when I actually committed myself to getting through college, at least to get a bachelor's degree, I craved the insights I was able glean from social science and humanities classes... and later took upon myself to read a number of books that some might consider pop psychology, but for me helped me understand more about what goes on inside my head and heart.
So, there you have it... that's my take.
Oh... and I forgot to mention that you neglected to cite wierwille as a verbal and emotional abuser of both men and women. This I know from experience... having observed and personally been the target of some of it at a couple of points in the year I spent at Emporia.
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polar bear
Thanks DWBH for sharing that with us and thanks for helping those who were and are in need.
You are a tremendous individual with great integrity.
Thou almost persuadest me to be a counselor!
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rhino
Too bad that thread on how there is little censorship at GSC got completely censored ... all 350 or so posts. But that is not what I said. But I did say, in the end, that was the ONLY right thing to do. Keeping it in the household was wrong ... nothing stopped ...
I said I understood, given the cult dynamics, that protecting the movement of the word and the ministry took priority. ... I copied some of those pages, maybe I can pull up a more accurate quote.
I guess I'm still shallow ... what in the world do you mean ... what professional or therapeutic relationships would have been harmed if vic had been taken to court? None of those people were willing to testify .. with some exhortation? What of the thirteen that got together to confront vp?
So let the abuse continue for years ... with the rationalization of protecting what exactly? Relationships?
I'm detecting gross denial ... that is what I think .. so far ...
Mark? Care to comment? Just bill GSC ...
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Rocky
I'm sure you're not simply accepting that you're doomed to an existence as a shallow individual... frankly, my impression is that from where DWBH was in the organization and in his personal journey, there are other things that probably would have been important in order for him or others at that time to have successfully gotten law enforcement involved...
First, it would have taken someone who was NOT just beginning to figure it all out. Second, that someone with some background to understand the legal/organizational/emotional issues would have been critical in being able to keep it from being completely covered up... because it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that twi would have immediately gone into VERY INTENSE damage control mode...
and we've had several accounts, from different people as to what twi was capable of doing when "circling the wagons."
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waysider
When, as a child, you first begin to doubt the authenticity of Santa Claus, to whom can you turn? Your parents, your peers?
Tough call, that's for sure.
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rhino
There are many reasons why many people did not act more boldly ... "it was a cult" is a decent summary.
I don't believe confidentiality is a valid one ... people went to an authority for help to stop the abuse ... even for a certified counselor, continued abuse would have to be stopped. For a corporate executive ... even more so ...
This may come up in another cult some day ... might as well get the story straight.
Actually I don't know the psychiatrist I guess .. I knew the psychologist ... also sixth corps, lived around HQ, last name started with a C ... so I figured that was who he meant ... pretty sure he was not a psychiatrist.
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Rocky
As used by DWBH, confidentiality is an issue of codes of professional conduct subject to licensing regulation. It's not an option.
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chockfull
DWBH,
Thanks for standing up for what is right. I respect all those who have continued to learn and help others be whole and healthy emotionally and in their minds. I can confirm any form of counseling training did not exist in WC training later than the time periods you mentioned that I have been familiar with. I don't want to narrow down dates too much at this point.
-CF
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Belle
Rhino, so as to not derail this thread, I've answered you on your thread. :)
DWBH, you're right. I try to remember that y'all were just kids... kids with no formal training and thrown into some pretty intense, serious and dire situations with little to no training or experience helping people with real live "life or death" situations. It had to be rough and very disconcerting. What vee pee taught sounds good in theory, but doesn't work in real life.... Where's Oakspear? His signature used to say,
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is"
There are some horrible tales of people getting wrong or no professional help for issues that clearly needed it.
I used to wonder how Dottie Moynihan sleeps at night. She has counseled many women raped by vee pee and craig and other leaders and she continues to support and cover for those evil wolves in sheep's clothing.... her husband, too.
Thanks so much, DWBH for this thread. I have more to share, but it's waaaayyyy past my bedtime.
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Rocky
Yet, earlier in the timeline he described, I got the impression it was an issue of them still trying to sort it all out... again, at that time, DWBH and most of the rest of them were still VERY young to have this all develop in their midst as it were.
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socks
Pastoring and the role of a pastor is a topic I've nibbled at quite a bit here, DW. It's what informs most of how I've evaluated my years of direct participation in the Way.
Your point of confidentialty is of the highest importance. When I have no clear freedom to speak on another's behalf where privacy is a concern (and when isn't it?) I don't have the right to speak. Period. Where there's been privileged access to another's life it's part of the charge to protect them by not allowing that information to be made public.
A lot of things can be said - at what cost? This isn't "lockbox" stuff, this is common sense. Or should be. The fact it's clearly required for medical professionals upholds the obvious truth that privilege carries responsibility.
Going public, going to court over anything is a difficult business. rhino, as I know you know. I think your question and concern can be answered by the actual facts - no one until Paul Allen determined to go to court against any of the people mentioned, throughout the entire history of the Way we're referencing.
I'm not looking at that from the viewpoint of what DWBH's stating - I'm just looking at the facts. If these things happened and if people were involved at different times, different people and different circumstances and no one ever chose to publicly address the events in public or in a public court by bringing legal claims and grievances against them - there have to be reasons.
One reason would be they were encouraged not to. We've been over that ground. But there may not be one single reason or one that goes back to DWBH or anyone specifically.
It may actually be more of a matter of how well the people themselves were able to deal with it. I can't say that for sure and clearly not for everyone. Going to court, publicly stating not just "what's going on" but "what went on with me", and all of the details would be difficult for someone. I don't have to be understanding to see that - the history speaks to it. Those who could, didn't. They moved on, over, along with, whatever but they chose not to.
Doing so publicly without bringing forth the names and faces of the people involved would have been ill advised - claims without names don't go far. IMO it would be wrong to drag people out into the open against their will, or if they were going to be hurt more by the cure than the disease.
That doesn't offer a simple answer and still leaves the entire topic up in the air - which is where it will remain IMO, when dealing with generalities. Any specifics are at the discretion of those involved.
In your comments I hear "you can't tell me there wasn't a way that these people couldn't have been taken to court and stopped" by those who knew. But - that's in fact what happened, they didn't, immediately and they weren't immediately. DWBH describes circumstances that include more than himself or others in his role - it describes the people themselves who were involved. Why didn't they just say to he ll with it and do it? Even if they were told not to? Even if they were afraid? Even if they thought something bad would happen as a result?
It's a three sided coin. Could everyone have done better, done more, done something? I think you have to factor in that - mahy of the people in the Way didn't want to see the whole thing come crashing down around them, even when they were victims of others. They wanted it to work and they wanted it to be right. I'm guessing but I've gotten the feeling over the years that some of those who "could have" didn't because they simply didn't want to go through the personal turmoil and hardship that would result. They preferred privaciy, at a cost perhaps, but privacy nonetheless.
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doojable
I was corps. My only "training" was from the in rez class "Competent to Counsel."
Looking back it strikes me how inadequate that was. Training? Training? From a two week class with no practicum? (Or was that supposed to be our interim year?)
If I understand the doctor/patient confidentiality relationship correctly, a doctor is bound by an oath (and the law) to keep a patient's details private and confidential. Same goes for therapeutic health professionals and attorneys. The "relationship" being referred to is legal and binding.
How do you suppose Vic would have been taken to court?
Neither the clergy nor the professionals had any legal standing in the matter. They could not have initiated a suit. Add to that the fact that they had the trust of these women (and some men I presume.)
It's hard enough to get a rape victim to speak up and testify. How much harder would it be if that meant the victim were to go up against a man she called her Father in der verd," or MOG? Much much harder if she believed that speaking up would win her the title, "possessed."
I don't know who you mean by "the thirteen" (were they a tribe?) but I'm fairly certain your list includes at least one man who admitted later on that he was guilty of the sexual stuff.
Just how does he go to court to sue vp if he's partaken in his wrongdoing?
Regarding warning folks out on the field?- How? Using the "Way Phone Tree"? How would this information get back through the ranks without being sanitized? How many "dirty hands" would it have passed through before it hit an area?
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mstar1
I was never corps or never clergy but being a formerly sold out rock solid wafer I can understand the psychological maelstrom that I had to fight through (at times still fighting through)
Wierwilles narcississtic personality and own psychological makeup of needing complete control and just dictating to people 'der verd' as the complete answer to everything had to have been a prime reason why he was so against psychology --resulting in his bogus doctrines regarding it that were taken as gospel.
It was something he feared --and rightfully--Why would he want anyone --even himself ---peering into his dark mangy soul --or even thinking about it? He could be "righteous now" as if by magic without any of the genuine work involved of actually dealing, struggling or being responsible for his darker side.
The struggles and dilemmas you described are real to the human condition and are exactly the time when humans, clergy or otherwise, need to be able to dig very deep. It certainly helps a great deal if someone with genuine pastoral qualities is open and nearby, but doctrinally that was all but verboten in wayworld-and if some had natural pastoral 'gifts' it either was undeveloped or just plain quashed.
Most of us, (well i can really speak only for me, although I do observe people attitudes here at GS) due to our close and lengthy involvement still carry a model of clergy based somewhat on what was seen in The Way--(nothing against the good people who were ordained) but I think the entire model was completely bogus and based greatly on Wierwilles distorted and selfcentered world and human view. The distortion was so immense that it still gets carried through
My work brings me into contact with many clergy of different established denominations that have never been in , or for the most part never heard of TWI. Its very common and in some denominations and sometimes a prerequiste to not only be trained in many forms of pastoral counseling (not by hearing someone elses interpretation of one fundamentalist book!) and remain over very lengthy periods in some sort of counseling or spiritual direction.
Knowing some of them very closely over a period of many years, I can say that some of them have genuine pastoral gifts that have been developed through years of searching and counselling, that go far beyond anything in TWI --or wouldve ever been possible in that environment.
As far as what God or Jesus thinks---To me thats still part of the Way think that was part of the whole screwed up package---I wouldnt be so presumptious to even pretend to know (that would be a good psych study in ego overinflation--
)
I do know its been provided and is a good tool
(I hope this is readable--all done in the morning grogs before coffee)
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doojable
Another observation I had was that by encouraging the "lock-box" and casting such a dark light on psychologists, psychiatrists and other forms of truly competent and legitimate counselors, der victoid basically put any woman (or man) seeking help in a no-win situation. He cut them off at the knees. Add to that, that as time passed, more and more clergy were involved and you have what they call here in the South a "good ole boy" system.
Victims could very easily feel cornered. They couldn't go up the ranks or down. They couldn't go outside the household.
One more thing - Psychology and psychiatry were "born in a seance" but tricky vic allowed Competent to Counsel to be taught in rez. To me, that smacks as wanting to stack the deck in his favor.
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waterbuffalo
Yes, I remember being grossly underqualified to counsel anyone after graduating from the wc with only the Christian Counseling course with Jay Adams's book as the text, and as you mentioned corps classes on how to perform a wedding/funeral. Underqualified? No, actually unqualified to counsel anyone is the truth. That was/is one of my mantras here at gs. Thanks for exposing/discussing that with us here. It is nice to know someone higher up had a conscience and struggled to know what was the right thing to do at the time of my last years in rez.
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geisha779
Hi Don't Worry be Happy,
You said---
at present, i place great value and confidence in the millions of licensed, professional psychiatrists, psychologists, psychiatric nurse practitioners, licensed clinical social workers,and the various other disciplines at work in our mental health care system.........i respect them greatly because of the incredible demands and stressors their chosen fields put on them personally, as well as their loved ones.........i respect them for doing their best to help those who need their services, in spite of severe "underfunding" in their areas of expertise........i have watched them touch the untouchable, reach the unreachable, and minster to the sick and suffering........i have rejoiced at their successes, and i have sorrowed with them at their failures.........i have also witnessed them stare down some of the most vile, insanely evil, and despicable characters you'd ever imagine could remain living........and do so non-judgementally and objectively despite the personal revulsion of what they're looking at!........i never saw vic, or twi, or any of twi's "trustees" through the years ever come close to any of that!!..........imo, twi stood diametrically opposed to professional, therapeutic relationships, then and now!...........but i never thought, nor do i think today, that god and/or jesus opposes them................what do you think?
I agree so much with this statement. My husband is a Crisis Counselor at a Clinical Support facility. He now only works per diem, but you know how that can go--
fulltime if you want it.
My son has a radio show that deals with current events and ministries in the Christian Sphere--he did a show on a group called "To Write Love on Her Arms" It was so interesting and since he was constantly wearing a shirt that said "To Write Love on Her Arms" we were interested in finding out more--after his show--which was amazing(Proud Mamma), we looked into it a bit more. This group offers support and services to CUTTERS.
Shortly after this, my husband got a very serious call from a young cutter X. He had at his fingertips all the services he needed to help X, because of this Christian group, who put together a great list of Christian AND Secular groups that work in this field. He also prayed with X--something he rarely does
on the phone--but this was a serious situation.He was moved to pray with her permission, and he was able to calm X--in ways that combined the love God has for X and the hope of services out there--
GOOD Christian ministries employ sound psychiatric services--the two are not mutually exclusive. Most people, Christian and Secular, that work in these fields at the local level --- the ones I know---are loving, caring souls--not in it for any glory---what a burn-out job it can be. My mom was a Psychiatric Nurse most of her 30 years nursing. She was choked-threatened, and thrown around more than once--and still went to work everyday loving the clients.
--It is insanity what TWI did to people. It has taken years for hubby and I to recover and we still have issues that crop up--boundries being one we are still dealing with.
BTW--I remember you FONDLY. I only dealt with you a few times, but you stood out to me as kind and genuine. I remember dealing with JAL at Emporia for the
Advanced Class-VP was there and I had a run in with him too. Then I came back to the WOW field and had to call you. Honestly, I remember thinking of the
differences between you all. I couldn't get off the phone--you were so interested in my WOW time. I almost told you about what happened at Emporia, but stopped myself. I figured I just wasn't spiritual enough. We were all victims of a sick cult--but I want you to know--you were very kind to me.
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rhino
If this is a case study .... I think it should go beyond trying to evaluate DWBH or anyone ... the point is for people is similar situations NOW. They google and find this incident.
What should the GSC message be ... on the way to be a hero in your cult, when abuse/crimes are reported to you ... especially if you are in a position of authority..
Of course we were young, woefully unprepared, inadequate ... and programmed ... but given 20/20 hindsight ... what is the right response for those still enslaved in a cult?
I believe it is REQUIRED of professional counselors to contact authorities if crime/harm is ongoing or imminent.
But it doesn't seem people were just exposing this to get counseling, they were going to a TWI executive to get it stopped. They even went and got other witnesses/victims with the intent of confronting the offender/criminal.
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rhino
My point about people on the field still sending money and people to this cesspool ... is that there were other victims ... there was a need to be honest with them as well.
How many were sent into the corps after this was revealed to senior management?
What is the correct response if this happens to an honest man in a senior management position in a cult today? Women come to him ... ready to confront their mog ...
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shazdancer
Incredibly interesting thread, DWBH, thank you. And I thank you for your personal disclosures, while still keeping professional confidences. Your account of confronting Wierwille and being threatened by the dog are just riveting.
I also recall Dr. SL and his wonderful wife from my in-rez year '79-'80. He was probably one of the most intelligent Way believers I ever knew when I was in, and both he and his wife were incredibly kind. I am so glad that he was able to use his expertise to help some of those who were abused, and that he was able to mentor people like you into becoming truly competent counselors beyond just reading a book.
Yes, I took the "Competent to Counsel" course. Having recently completed my masters in something relatively innocuous (library science), I can't fathom that anyone with an advanced degree (VPW, DEW) could have really believed that a couple of weeks would make us competent to do anything.
The crux of Jay Adam's book and the class, if I recall, was to bring people to the absolutes of Scripture and confront them of their sin. (Rereading the intro to the book on GoogleBooks reinforces my impression.) In TWI, that became a super-instant approach, and we were encouraged to use our "spiritual perception and awareness" to confront everyone with The Word, as if the wrongdoers would suddenly smack themselves upside the head and go, "Wow, you're right! I will change my ways!" I think mstar nailed it when he said
It usually didn't work, in part because we didn't know what we were doing, and in part because we didn't take the time to build a trusted relationship with the counselees where eventually they could be guided to the place of understanding what had happened to them and how they should proceed. We were supposed to take that sword of the spirit and hack them to pieces with it.
Regards,
-- Shaz
PS: And go easy on yourself, DW. You knew you couldn't break confidence with your counselees, both because it would breach professional ethics and because it might do more harm to the victims to go public. You went right to Vic and to his top people, and got nowhere. Making any kind of public statement would probably have been spun by Vic and you would have been just another "copped out" believer.
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Ham
the scary thing.. how many of this crowd are off on their own, running a cult, basking in mog worship.. thinking vic's "legacy" to be something to be proud of.. an exclusive heritage.
Undoubtedly, some of them were abused as well..
I find it intriguing that many turned to momentus to try to close their wounds.. "kill the victim".. putting their mind on a closed loop of carefully crafted rationalizations..
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rascal
What about these guys who thought that their way corpes education really did make them capable of diagnoing and treating mental illness.
I remember one time....a wtf? moment. When I had to deal with John Townsend over something...there were some serious issues with stuff going on on the wow field in our group....... I was fc, ap c and so was my bu tt was the one being questioned..
Well anyway, we had never really spent time one on one or talked much. But he goes into describing me as someone that went along for long periods of time really really high and up beat...but then when I crashed I was very very low....that I needed to recognize this in myself.....and I am thinking..WHAT??? When have we EVER spoken, that you would get that impression??? I think I had only been there a month or so.
Now...I understand that files were kept on all of us...I am guessing in hindsight, that some dufus had apparently taken it upon themselves to diagnose me...what kills me, is I never spent any amount of time with any OTHER state leader in order to have that determined either. Maybe it was be revelation or something..lol I don`t know
It is my understanding that licensed, legitimate health care professionals that are qualified to make that sort of assertion, generally spend time with a person in order to correctly diagnose these problems...
Shoot and once diagnosing one...wouldn`t it be prudent at least let the person in question KNOW that they are sick??
My point is, that in going through the corpes, people I knew seemed to think that they were competent to diagnose and treat people....I know someone that died because the warning signs were ignored, his problems not addressed.
It is very dangerous to think and act as if you are qualified. To discourage people from getting the real help that they need.
Get the wrong person trying to make themselves look impressive in their reports...and you have some pretty nasty insinuations that can follow you from state to state.
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waysider
Me too ------more than once
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Shellon
Several things strike me when I even hear a hint of 'why didn't she tell?' and 'why didn't you DO something' or 'why wasn't anyone held accountable?'
I don't have my license to provide therapy, yet. I have the years of college training and the leather bound piece of paper that I understand now isn't worth the paper the fancy degree is on if the victim isn't willing, or can't, or won't, or isn't willing or able to do the hardest part.
If a client, or anyone, come to even the highest of trained person and spills their guts, s/he, the victim has to do the hardest part and follow through with the assist they're asking for.
We can hollar at the helping professional forever and even when they do their legally required part in reporting a crime, if the victim won't press charges, or can't see it through, what are we supposed to do? Force them, put them over our shoulder and carry them to the police? Sit on them until they spill their guts?
Sometimes when a victim knows there are other victims, it's even harder for them to speak up. They often will look around and wonder "if they can hang in there, what's wrong with me?"
It doesn't make it right, it just is. Sometimes if we put ourselves in that place and really listen and really look, we might understand better.
If someone grows up in abuse from early age, that is their normal. Moving on to bigger and more isn't an issue for them, not telling isn't an issue for them.
If a client is sitting in my office and I say "you have to tell and I'll go with you" it won't matter unless they can find the massive strength to agree and then do it. I can call authorities and report a crime, encourage the victim to talk to them, but if they, for whatever reason, change their minds, decide not to prosecute, what other options are there?
As has been said here, the leaders entrusted with others' lives and hearts were as young or younger than the victims in many instances. When I was in my 20's, I barely had enough life experience to keep the rent paid, much less walk with someone through the court process and stick it out til the very end, which might be years away. I don't care how "spiritual" I was.
I defy anyone! to answer their phone one day and hear a friends voice on the other end say "I was just raped" and know exactly what to do. In ones gut, the first thing after "WHAT???" is most likely going to be 'you have to go to the cops'.
Uh huh, sure
That person knows what is ahead of them if they do, the person is psychologically, physically, emotionally destroyed, scared, might have been threatened or had their babies lives threatened, a host of other scary realities that are hurting as bad as the attack at that moment.
In all the fancy phych classes, we're taught things like "I'll be with you every step of the way" but ya better damn well mean it! Seriously have every!! intention of taking each and every painful humiliating step. We're taught to offer counseling and crisis groups, but if the victim doesn't show up, are we to go to their homes and drag them to their appointment?
I've heard "why, to sit around with other people who've been raped and listen to their stories?" The answer is, of course, yes, that's therapeutic but maybe not to THEM.
If there are more victims of the same rapist, all might not come forward. The one that does is told lovely things like we'll find the others, we'll get them to talk, we'll keep trying. A time or two, another of the victims garners strength from the vocal one and might peek in, but it's long in coming, often.
Tell a victim of abuse that you'll move heaven and hell to protect them and you might find yourself sitting in the defendants chair for victimizing your client, or at the very least, getting your a$$ chewed in a huge way by your boss for offering services the agency doesn't offter. And another a$$ chewing for making it harder for the police by telling the victim they'll provide protection when they don't.
Then not only have you pi$$ed off those that you need to help you in this messy journey, you're lost the trust of your client, the victim, who already has massive trust issues.
If Don or anyone else in his position has a line outside his office, where in the hell is he supposed to organize this mess? How is he to spend the time getting all the stories in some sort of order, get with everyone involved, get them to agree together, to get their poop in a group to feel strong enough to do the really hard part. When the dust clears, it isn't Don or the other helpers who will have to keep the ball rolling, it would be the victims.
One can understand the exhaustion and frustration of being helpless when one really honestly truly wants to help.
Also when leadership tells someone "you can call me anytime, day or night" how can s/he really mean this, in a place like twi? Shoot, one day the victim might call and the promise will be true, the next time, their friend in leadership has been moved in the night and evaporated. On the evaporated ones mind is the victim but how to contact them, especially when they've promised to keep closed mouth about it?
What should they do? Call and leave a message on the machine " Hi, XXXXXXX, this is Don, I'm sorry, I know I told you we'd talk tomorrow, but something has come up and I've been moved suddenly and unexpectedly and we won't be able to. Good luck to you"
Click
Or their spouse or room mate gets the message first, a person the victim hadn't figured out how to tell yet.
Yup, another person who said they'd help and didn't, what else is new. Not intentioned by the leader, of course not.
That is the reality.
So, the victim again feels denied, more and more trust is gone.
Now what? Wait a week until the branch meeting that introduces yet another leader, find them at the coffee pot alone and say "So and so was helping me with _________' listing the entire problem in 2 minutes.
And we're off................... again.
In the free world as helping professionals, we can encourage the victim and "do what we can" only to find out they've evaportated one night. What are we supposed to do then? Neglect others in our caseload to phone everyone the victim has ever mentioned and inquire as to their new address?
With children, yes, we are duty bound to report. So the caseworker does his/her visit and paperwork and the sweet scared little kid won't do it.
Now what?
It's extremely easy and convenient to offer any manner of "well I would have......".
If we've even tried to find the way through the sharp and ugly and dark maze of criminal justice in these highly emotional cases, then we can understand it's one of the most difficult mess of our lives.
Finally, in the 70's, people still didn't tell, wives were still in submission, kids were still suffering silently. If we think the resources are few and far between now, it's nothing compared to the slim pickin's in just information then.
It's better now, perhaps and sometimes, but not until and IF the victim is willing to do the hardest part. Blame can be placed in a million places, but the reality is that some leaders DID try to help, some victims DID come out and follow through.
To chew Don out 'cuz he was in some higher place than me is futile. I get the wierd thinking but none of us is/was more accountable than another. Either way we can't make people do what they don't want to do, are scared out of their minds to do. Personally, I don't care if it's Don or you or me or bubbastinky. We can not force another to do the hardest part of being a victim.
When a mama kills her babies or a daddy kills the entire family; the neighbors, family, friends, are often the first people's faces in CNN saying "I knew something was wrong, but didn't know what to do". Or the other side "I had no idea!"
When we had a guy in our twig that "smelled fishy" I dug out my love of digging stuff and seeing what crawled out and found out a ton of shi+ he was up to. Yup, involved kids and I started hollaring. The oldest story in the world, leadership took him into a room for several hours, and the next day he evaporated. That was an ugly conversation to have with the mama of one of his victims later. Mama took it further to the police, who did their thing. The smelly one called me and threatened my baby, I still supported the mama. Did I put my own child at risk for a stranger? YUP! Was I wrong to do that? YUP! But I was "leadership" and all that bullshi+ and I had to save all the world cuz God wanted me to.
Crap is what that is.
After some time, the fallout from this became too much for that sweet little boy.
We can look around our neighborhoods, our church, our schools and stats tell us that 1 out of 3 kids is being abused at home. What should we do, knock on doors and force everyone to tell if they are the one? I think the stats are the same for adult female victims of sexual assault? So, there are three women in my little family, one of my daughters might be the victim of a rape? Carry that around in the day and see how it feels.
As helping professionals we can only be there if and when the one does find the courage to ask for help, then brace ourselves for saying things like "I'm sorry, but your abuser/stalker/molester/rapist has rights".
To put the responsibility on leadership like Don then to bi+ch when he doesn't do it to our liking, or to like him only when he did/does what we think he should have is just ridiculous.
Or anyone! We never ever ever understand until we live it and have to put head to pillow at night with it still there, knowing we have to get up again tomorrow and keep doing it.
Burn out rate of child protection workers is about one year. Domestic Violence worker hang in there for maybe two before they start to crack around the edges.
That is WITH some training in a classroom, internships and practice on the field.
Edited by ShellonLink to comment
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