I disagree. The other Trustees were rubber stamp Trustees IMHO and never would have voted against Wierwille, so the "Trustees" controlling the cash equalled Wierwille controlling the cash.
And who determined what constituted "the outreach of the Word of God"? Wierwille did. I wouldn't suggest that your heart for what the money was for was tainted, but i do suggest that Wierwille's was.
Like the WOWs living on mac & cheese but still giving 10%.
Who didn't benefit were the many "slaves" who were not apid for their work.
Wierwille taught that it was okay to tithe/abundantly share to groups other than TWI? Where was this?
When VP had a big meeting. A "Love offering" was taken. Did he ever come to your area and speak??
Well, do you know where that money from the offering went?
It didn't go to feed the local WOWs. It went into big brown paper grocery bags and right on the motor coach.
It left the area WITH VP--collecting as he went along. BIG BROWN GROCERY BAGS FULL OF MONEY!! Directly to the MOG.
A little tempting to carry onto the MOTOR COACH--when you drive an unsafe uninsured bucket of bolts--are broke--behind on the power bill--and sick of tuna and mac and cheese.
Yes Oakspear it went to the big guy himself. Bet he rolled around in it laughing his head off.
WHERE DO PEOPLE THINK IT WENT??? Sheeeesh--
At the Advanced Class in 1979 VP had a little figurine on his desk--he said something to the effect of "I would hate to tell you how much it cost--you might not ABS"
All those presents--Town Car --Harley--Where did the $$$ for that come from?? I don't remember voting on that.
It came from the mouths of believers children and oooops no college fund.
I remember not having enough to go to the frickin laundromat!! Digging change out of the couch for baby cereal. Abundant Life? Whose Abundant life?. . . . . . not mine.
The primary purpose in churches is not to fix someone's car. Ministries need money to function. There always will be someone in line that thinks they are owed a free ride, our country breeds this mentality with its social programs. I took my car in recently for some repair work funny I did not see the United Fund at the counter offering to pay the bill either. It is ridicules to think that they should somehow care for your personal items.
So, are you saying that churches shouldn't help little old ladies who have been faithful for years with their heating oil bills or give Thanksgiving baskets to the poor?
James 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
TWI is setting on something well over $50 million... that's nothing compared to some other churches. And you don't think they could maybe help out others from time to time?
After all, I thought they were a nonprofit organization...
The Way was always dead set against helping the unfortunate.
That's a fact, Jack!!
The company line was always that the best way to help anyone was to get them into PLAF (The Wonder Class).
I can't tell you how many times I heard the "teach a man to fish" scripture used to rationalize our uncharitable practices. Your neighbor has fallen on tough times?--Have them sign "The Green Card". Here's the cold hard truth. TWI was a devious multi-level-marketing scheme. (A pyramid scheme. Get it?)
Our function was two-fold, send money down a one-way street to fuel the lifestyles of a few top dogs and recruit others to do the same. In return, we were promised God would give us a life that is "more than abundant". They were promising to deliver something that wasn't theirs to give.Call it tithing, call it abundant sharing, call it a token of commitment, call it Yo Mama for all I care. Tell me honestly you never heard a variation of this line: " If you don't give at the very least a tithe, you will be outside the hedge of protection and God's hands will be tied in regards to giving you good health and prosperity." Buying Blessings sounds like a pretty darn good description of what life in The Way was really all about.
When I saw the motorcoach, Harley, plane, house at HQ, and then the parking lot full of beater cars at the ROA in 1982, I was shocked. Most of our TWI friends were law, dental, and medical students or fresh out of school. None of us drove bad cars or lived in poverty. We weren't rich and there was some debt associated with school. At the time, $75 per week of our money was going to HQ and I was being told we couldn't afford shoes for the kids, or trips to the doctor and dentist for well care. I told my husband that the practice of abundance needed to start at home and that all tithing needed to be suspended until our needs were taken care of at a level that coincided with our income. That's been the rule ever since. He can give as much as he wants, spend however he wants after the bills are paid, providing I never hear we can't afford something that's not unreasonable.
It was disheartening to see the poverty and embarrassing to be associated with it. It told me that something was not right.
I don't know if y'all will remember this or not but...
Back in the mid-90's, LCM threw out a mandate (like that was unusual) stating that we were to win "quality people" to the Word. He wanted people who were "already disciples in their lives" and not people who had a laundry list of needs or were uneducated or whatever.
In short: He wanted people with or from MONEY to be won to the ministry.
You were in leaderships' good graces if you brought a lawyer or a doctor or someone who appeared to have their .... together to twig but you were in their bad graces if you brought in a family on welfare who were looking for a better life.
Go figure.
The moral of the story is that they didn't want to be in the position to help people. Not only that, but they wanted people to be in the position to deeply line their coffers. If you have someone who makes $60K per year ABS-ing vs. someone who makes $20K per year, then you get three times the ABS off that first person than the second person - it's easy math.
Mr. Garden and I always helped people in need out of our own pockets. Twice we gave away cars; true they were not Lincoln Town Cars but they got from here to there.
Our first year of marriage we were in Athens Ohio and ran a twigful of college students. The AFSCME went on strike, which included the trash and cafeteria workers, so no food for the twiggies. We just started cooking more and set up a few more chairs. and then the little pi$$ant interim 7th WC "branch" leader told us to stop because the Word wasn't moving.
Nobody with authority gave a rat's nose about anything other than getting the money for those classes. Obviously the "man" of God for that day and time didn't care if they ate or not.
Of course, we all had to send in our $$ to HQ at that time. Probably would have just gotten their undies in a bundle had they known about the cars; should have sold them and sent the money you know where.
"God will open the windows of heaven the moment you lay your tithe at 'the apostle's feet'."
But which apostles? He did not say. He taught "the apostles feet"; not "me" or "my feet" (speaking of himself). He did not say "tithing works only in twi". Let's be accurate with what he taught.
Dr. Juedes said: "VPW conveniently determined that the giving had to be to him in order to count." Not so. That statement is inaccurate... according to CSBP it counted elsewhere also.
"You show me a tithing congregation and I will show you a church that is blessed of God". Page 38
And I do remember being reproved when I lived in Charleston SC for witnessing to and praying with an for my dentist, who was already a Christian, a Baptist in fact, and had no interest in the PFAL class. That was a waste of time. Never mind the man thought he had stuck himself while working in someone's mouth who might have had a fatal disease and begged for my prayers. OHHECKNO don't share the greatness of God's Word with a Baptist!
Lemme share something here: I don't think God is the least bit stingy with His love and blessings. And I think He hears the prayers of those whom He loves, no matter what label mankind puts on that person. HE might even be more inclined to hear the effectual fervent prayer of a man living under a bridge with no home, car, or 401K than someone in an ivory tower in New Knoxville who thinks they are something they are not.
Okay - one last post and then I gotta get back to work...
...sending money to HQ...
When I moved back to New England and was separated from my 1st husband, the LC at the time (J0hn Chel@r) knew that I didn't have any money and had just started a job. I was starting all over again - I didn't even own a car.
He asked if my parents would give me money and I responded that my mom couldn't because she was widowed and could hardly make ends meet. He asked when my dad had died and if he had left me any money. Again, I responded that everything was left to my mother (of course!)
Then he pushed the subject a little further: "Then she owes you and you should ask for it."
I responded that she owed me nothing and I'd never ask her for a dime. (And I never have!)
IF there was any money that had come to me as an inheritance I certainly wouldn't have confessed it to those bloodsuckers!!!
Sounds to me like you were moving the word more like God intended us to. Through good deeds and helping our Brothers and Sisters in Christ in a time of need. Its too bad that was frowned upon. I'm guessing the line you were supposed to follow was to tell the students to pray and a meal would have dropped out of the sky for them (but only if they were believing properly).
I was a twig treasurer very briefly in the early 90's and we sent every penny to HQ, all cash was turned into a money order and mailed with the checks. The stamp and the cost of the money order came out of my pocket, so that was paid out of my personal abundant sharing and the balance went into the horn of plenty the next time.
So is the congregation blessed because they tithe, or do they tithe because they are blessed?
When LCM published his infamous article in the Way Mag about the tithe is when he first uttered the immortal phrase "If you do not tithe a minimum of 10%, God will not even spit in your direction." He wrote and published that with the full knowledge and approval of VPW.
What dribble! Articles like that are written by moneygrubbers with diarrhea of the mouth and constipation of the brain.
The years we were twig coordinators in Colorado and then in Texas (70's & early 80's) we sent every penny of our and our twiggies' abs into HQ. We asked leadership, and the stamps, cost of the money order was to be supplied by us (and was)...anything else would be "stealing from the ministry that taught you the word" (!) Sometimes some of the believers would chip in to help with coffee, but for the most part, the coffee for twigs and snacks was supplied by us. Good grief...how embarrassing that the cost of coffee, stamps and money orders mattered, but when you make diddley-$hi+ and are spending a large percentage of that on "the things of the ministry", every penny counts.
We were also told (multiple times, mulitple teachings, from multiple leaders) that the tithe was the minimum required...to really be giving you had to at least be giving 15% of your pre-tax income. This absolutely did not include sponsoring people in the way corps (which we did the entire time we were in twi until we finally went in ourselves). Corps sponsorship was not considered abundant sharing, nor was the cost of gifts for traveling leaders. I distinctly remember beyotching to hubs about having to cough up money for a freakin' rhinestone elvis-type suit for "Doctor's" gift for his visit to Gunnison. Yep, we had holes in our underwear but "Doctor" needs a rhinestone suit.
Speaking of Gunnison...the leader's advances and seminars and work trips there were costly. We lived on the Eastern slope and had to make a 6 hour drive (one way) over the continental divide in our van, and that took loads of gas. More than once we made the trip with a load of people who didn't offer or have money to help with gas, but we were expected to bring them.
The thing that makes me the angriest about all that is that is took away the joy of giving. It was owed. "Before you pay bills, write that first check for abs...that way you're putting God first". Dammmmmned theiving grifting abusing using liars.
Oh, oh, oh! And I almost forgot...remember in the Way Magazine when they came out with "Remember the Way in Your Will"? Hey, they're not satisfied with turning you into a pauper while you're still breathing...when it comes to your heirs...let 'em eat $hi+, let 'em eat cake.
I was married to what twi called an "unbelieving believer" when I first started going to twig. After 15 years of him still never "never getting into the Word", I was counseled by the limb leaders to divorce him, in order to be able to continue to grow spiritually.
We sold our home and split the profits. I gave 15% of my share to twi without batting an eye, because that was my level of spiritual maturity. That was in the early 90s.
Ok Frank so they give you a spare car that satisfies you. What about the next 200 behind you and the 200 behind them? Now lets swich to other items like houses medical care and on and on It is impossible to care for everyones lack, nor do I think it is their job.
Yes at the time I needed a car,not some bs.Remember we were the ministry!
Why do you think twis roll call is so small?Everyone left!
But which apostles? He did not say. He taught "the apostles feet"; not "me" or "my feet" (speaking of himself). He did not say "tithing works only in twi". Let's be accurate with what he taught.
Dr. Juedes said: "VPW conveniently determined that the giving had to be to him in order to count." Not so. That statement is inaccurate... according to CSBP it counted elsewhere also.
"You show me a tithing congregation and I will show you a church that is blessed of God". Page 38
Again I think we disagree here Oldies. CSBP was written before the TWI heyday, possibly when Wierwille was still involved in the E&R Church. The whole time that I was involved 1978-2001 it was abundantly clear that tithing to groups outside TWI was not considered "laying it at the apostles' feet".
TWI teachings involved much more than what was in his pamphlets and books.
If you believed that Wierwille was okay with TWI people tithing to other organizations, I have no choice but to accept that, but that wasn't what I experienced.
the saddest part of buying blessings by tithing (material prosperity) and ABS (spiritual prosperity) is that Jesus Christ is locked out. In TWI, it's all up to you and what you do. No help from the outside. All law, no Gospel (good news)
By contrast, Ephesians 1 repeats often in various ways... "every spiritual blessing in Christ."
Not "every spiritual blessing in your ABS."
TWI is more like "Tith-ians" than "Christ-ians." Jesus Christ came to take the load off of us, not to pile it on higher as TWI does.
the saddest part of buying blessings by tithing (material prosperity) and ABS (spiritual prosperity) is that Jesus Christ is locked out. In TWI, it's all up to you and what you do. No help from the outside. All law, no Gospel (good news)
By contrast, Ephesians 1 repeats often in various ways... "every spiritual blessing in Christ."
Not "every spiritual blessing in your ABS."
TWI is more like "Tith-ians" than "Christ-ians." Jesus Christ came to take the load off of us, not to pile it on higher as TWI does.
Pastor,
There are many places you can hear a "Health and wealth" gospel. Not just TWI. Did Jesus really call us ALL to prosperity? Isn't the abundant life really found in Him--who is life. Does that verse (John 10:10) really have to do with material abundance at all? Isn't our life an abundant one--when filled with Him who is the best possible thing to offer? We can be poor and still have an abundant life in Jesus.
Other than basically a complete denial of Jesus-- What makes TWI different than any of these other "Ministries" who teach prosperity? Creflo Dollar--Benny Hinn-Joyce Meyers. . Prayer of Jabez. . . . . and how do people get to the place that they see abundance and fufillment as more of Him?
I really want to know.
There is nothing wrong with material abundance--but not all Christians have it--some suffer poverty--persecution--martyrdom--illness--pain--prison--the Lord loves and blesses them too. Some with a deep abiding faith in Him. Are they not given an abundant life?
A Christian's life can be marked out by suffering--for His names sake. You can't just explain all that away with believing. If we get to know some of these other Christians--we will find amazing faith and love--how come?
How come the love of many in TWI with abundance was so cold and legalistic? So hard and often cruel in the name of God?
Doesn't it tell us to warn the rich--doesn't mention the poor? Was Paul not believing or tithing when he said--He was hungry-no where to live--ragged clothes--pleading for the poor SAINTS in Jerusalem?
If Christians should be prosperous--what were all these guys doing wrong?
With all that bible and talk of God--in my estimation TWI was not true Christianity. Wrong heart--mixed up gospel(Good News) and a warped view of Jesus. BUT--what about these other ministries? Are they much different? Wrong heart--mixed up Gospel(Good News) and warped view of Jesus.
Doesn't it say? Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
-Matthew 6:19-21
The rain still falls on the just and the unjust--a Christian is not determined by his wealth or his poverty.
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ljn698
"God will open the windows of heaven the moment you lay your tithe at 'the apostle's feet'."
translation= God will open up the windows of heaven the moment your check clears
nyuk nyuk nyuk nyuk
only kidding
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Ham
I think I need someone to explain how I got "benefited".
lessee. I have enough rent money in the account for the coming month.. and if Wall Sthreet has it's way at the best it will be "delayed"..
maybe that's it.. I'm not "near" enough "headquarters."
*Hey mister, heyyyyyyy.. come back... *in tears* takes my money.. pleasssse, takes my money..
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geisha779
When VP had a big meeting. A "Love offering" was taken. Did he ever come to your area and speak??
Well, do you know where that money from the offering went?
It didn't go to feed the local WOWs. It went into big brown paper grocery bags and right on the motor coach.
It left the area WITH VP--collecting as he went along. BIG BROWN GROCERY BAGS FULL OF MONEY!! Directly to the MOG.
A little tempting to carry onto the MOTOR COACH--when you drive an unsafe uninsured bucket of bolts--are broke--behind on the power bill--and sick of tuna and mac and cheese.
Yes Oakspear it went to the big guy himself. Bet he rolled around in it laughing his head off.
WHERE DO PEOPLE THINK IT WENT??? Sheeeesh--
At the Advanced Class in 1979 VP had a little figurine on his desk--he said something to the effect of "I would hate to tell you how much it cost--you might not ABS"
All those presents--Town Car --Harley--Where did the $$$ for that come from?? I don't remember voting on that.
It came from the mouths of believers children and oooops no college fund.
I remember not having enough to go to the frickin laundromat!! Digging change out of the couch for baby cereal. Abundant Life? Whose Abundant life?. . . . . . not mine.
I guess my believing sucked.
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ChasUFarley
So, are you saying that churches shouldn't help little old ladies who have been faithful for years with their heating oil bills or give Thanksgiving baskets to the poor?
TWI is setting on something well over $50 million... that's nothing compared to some other churches. And you don't think they could maybe help out others from time to time?
After all, I thought they were a nonprofit organization...
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waysider
The Way was always dead set against helping the unfortunate.
That's a fact, Jack!!
The company line was always that the best way to help anyone was to get them into PLAF (The Wonder Class).
I can't tell you how many times I heard the "teach a man to fish" scripture used to rationalize our uncharitable practices. Your neighbor has fallen on tough times?--Have them sign "The Green Card". Here's the cold hard truth. TWI was a devious multi-level-marketing scheme. (A pyramid scheme. Get it?)
Our function was two-fold, send money down a one-way street to fuel the lifestyles of a few top dogs and recruit others to do the same. In return, we were promised God would give us a life that is "more than abundant". They were promising to deliver something that wasn't theirs to give.Call it tithing, call it abundant sharing, call it a token of commitment, call it Yo Mama for all I care. Tell me honestly you never heard a variation of this line: " If you don't give at the very least a tithe, you will be outside the hedge of protection and God's hands will be tied in regards to giving you good health and prosperity." Buying Blessings sounds like a pretty darn good description of what life in The Way was really all about.
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WordWolf
I know the local churches here are involved with helping the unfortunate, and the financially destitute,
and the people who otherwise need help.
Actually, I had experience with that sort of thing- but not from twi. People whose training and experience
came SOLELY from twi had NO experience with that. I got an incredulous look when was told by someone
that the local ex-twiers were considering doing some charity work (with a look like they were saying something
momentous) , and I told him I already had done hundreds of hours of charity work. I don't know if it was
just so shocking I'd done what he hadn't when he was a leader, or that there were sources I could have
managed hundreds of hours in, or if he just thought I was lying through my teeth.
Frankly, I knew plenty about initializing that sort of thing and executing them, but "leadership" would rather
have had their fingernails ripped out than admit a young guy could have the information they need-
especially if it came from non-twi sources.
================
"Nine-tenths goes more with God's Blessing in it-
you can't afford NOT to give."
How many of you heard that one taught?
How many of you heard that one sung?
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Tzaia
When I saw the motorcoach, Harley, plane, house at HQ, and then the parking lot full of beater cars at the ROA in 1982, I was shocked. Most of our TWI friends were law, dental, and medical students or fresh out of school. None of us drove bad cars or lived in poverty. We weren't rich and there was some debt associated with school. At the time, $75 per week of our money was going to HQ and I was being told we couldn't afford shoes for the kids, or trips to the doctor and dentist for well care. I told my husband that the practice of abundance needed to start at home and that all tithing needed to be suspended until our needs were taken care of at a level that coincided with our income. That's been the rule ever since. He can give as much as he wants, spend however he wants after the bills are paid, providing I never hear we can't afford something that's not unreasonable.
It was disheartening to see the poverty and embarrassing to be associated with it. It told me that something was not right.
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ChasUFarley
I don't know if y'all will remember this or not but...
Back in the mid-90's, LCM threw out a mandate (like that was unusual) stating that we were to win "quality people" to the Word. He wanted people who were "already disciples in their lives" and not people who had a laundry list of needs or were uneducated or whatever.
In short: He wanted people with or from MONEY to be won to the ministry.
You were in leaderships' good graces if you brought a lawyer or a doctor or someone who appeared to have their .... together to twig but you were in their bad graces if you brought in a family on welfare who were looking for a better life.
Go figure.
The moral of the story is that they didn't want to be in the position to help people. Not only that, but they wanted people to be in the position to deeply line their coffers. If you have someone who makes $60K per year ABS-ing vs. someone who makes $20K per year, then you get three times the ABS off that first person than the second person - it's easy math.
More TWI math:
More ABS = More Spiritually Mature
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Watered Garden
Mr. Garden and I always helped people in need out of our own pockets. Twice we gave away cars; true they were not Lincoln Town Cars but they got from here to there.
Our first year of marriage we were in Athens Ohio and ran a twigful of college students. The AFSCME went on strike, which included the trash and cafeteria workers, so no food for the twiggies. We just started cooking more and set up a few more chairs. and then the little pi$$ant interim 7th WC "branch" leader told us to stop because the Word wasn't moving.
Nobody with authority gave a rat's nose about anything other than getting the money for those classes. Obviously the "man" of God for that day and time didn't care if they ate or not.
Of course, we all had to send in our $$ to HQ at that time. Probably would have just gotten their undies in a bundle had they known about the cars; should have sold them and sent the money you know where.
WG
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oldiesman
But which apostles? He did not say. He taught "the apostles feet"; not "me" or "my feet" (speaking of himself). He did not say "tithing works only in twi". Let's be accurate with what he taught.
Dr. Juedes said: "VPW conveniently determined that the giving had to be to him in order to count." Not so. That statement is inaccurate... according to CSBP it counted elsewhere also.
"You show me a tithing congregation and I will show you a church that is blessed of God". Page 38
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Watered Garden
And I do remember being reproved when I lived in Charleston SC for witnessing to and praying with an for my dentist, who was already a Christian, a Baptist in fact, and had no interest in the PFAL class. That was a waste of time. Never mind the man thought he had stuck himself while working in someone's mouth who might have had a fatal disease and begged for my prayers. OHHECKNO don't share the greatness of God's Word with a Baptist!
Lemme share something here: I don't think God is the least bit stingy with His love and blessings. And I think He hears the prayers of those whom He loves, no matter what label mankind puts on that person. HE might even be more inclined to hear the effectual fervent prayer of a man living under a bridge with no home, car, or 401K than someone in an ivory tower in New Knoxville who thinks they are something they are not.
WG
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ChasUFarley
Okay - one last post and then I gotta get back to work...
...sending money to HQ...
When I moved back to New England and was separated from my 1st husband, the LC at the time (J0hn Chel@r) knew that I didn't have any money and had just started a job. I was starting all over again - I didn't even own a car.
He asked if my parents would give me money and I responded that my mom couldn't because she was widowed and could hardly make ends meet. He asked when my dad had died and if he had left me any money. Again, I responded that everything was left to my mother (of course!)
Then he pushed the subject a little further: "Then she owes you and you should ask for it."
I responded that she owed me nothing and I'd never ask her for a dime. (And I never have!)
IF there was any money that had come to me as an inheritance I certainly wouldn't have confessed it to those bloodsuckers!!!
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so it was
Watered Garden,
Sounds to me like you were moving the word more like God intended us to. Through good deeds and helping our Brothers and Sisters in Christ in a time of need. Its too bad that was frowned upon. I'm guessing the line you were supposed to follow was to tell the students to pray and a meal would have dropped out of the sky for them (but only if they were believing properly).
I was a twig treasurer very briefly in the early 90's and we sent every penny to HQ, all cash was turned into a money order and mailed with the checks. The stamp and the cost of the money order came out of my pocket, so that was paid out of my personal abundant sharing and the balance went into the horn of plenty the next time.
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Watered Garden
So is the congregation blessed because they tithe, or do they tithe because they are blessed?
When LCM published his infamous article in the Way Mag about the tithe is when he first uttered the immortal phrase "If you do not tithe a minimum of 10%, God will not even spit in your direction." He wrote and published that with the full knowledge and approval of VPW.
What dribble! Articles like that are written by moneygrubbers with diarrhea of the mouth and constipation of the brain.
WG
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tonto
The years we were twig coordinators in Colorado and then in Texas (70's & early 80's) we sent every penny of our and our twiggies' abs into HQ. We asked leadership, and the stamps, cost of the money order was to be supplied by us (and was)...anything else would be "stealing from the ministry that taught you the word" (!) Sometimes some of the believers would chip in to help with coffee, but for the most part, the coffee for twigs and snacks was supplied by us. Good grief...how embarrassing that the cost of coffee, stamps and money orders mattered, but when you make diddley-$hi+ and are spending a large percentage of that on "the things of the ministry", every penny counts.
We were also told (multiple times, mulitple teachings, from multiple leaders) that the tithe was the minimum required...to really be giving you had to at least be giving 15% of your pre-tax income. This absolutely did not include sponsoring people in the way corps (which we did the entire time we were in twi until we finally went in ourselves). Corps sponsorship was not considered abundant sharing, nor was the cost of gifts for traveling leaders. I distinctly remember beyotching to hubs about having to cough up money for a freakin' rhinestone elvis-type suit for "Doctor's" gift for his visit to Gunnison. Yep, we had holes in our underwear but "Doctor" needs a rhinestone suit.
Speaking of Gunnison...the leader's advances and seminars and work trips there were costly. We lived on the Eastern slope and had to make a 6 hour drive (one way) over the continental divide in our van, and that took loads of gas. More than once we made the trip with a load of people who didn't offer or have money to help with gas, but we were expected to bring them.
The thing that makes me the angriest about all that is that is took away the joy of giving. It was owed. "Before you pay bills, write that first check for abs...that way you're putting God first". Dammmmmned theiving grifting abusing using liars.
Oh, oh, oh! And I almost forgot...remember in the Way Magazine when they came out with "Remember the Way in Your Will"? Hey, they're not satisfied with turning you into a pauper while you're still breathing...when it comes to your heirs...let 'em eat $hi+, let 'em eat cake.
Bas turds.
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bowtwi
I was married to what twi called an "unbelieving believer" when I first started going to twig. After 15 years of him still never "never getting into the Word", I was counseled by the limb leaders to divorce him, in order to be able to continue to grow spiritually.
We sold our home and split the profits. I gave 15% of my share to twi without batting an eye, because that was my level of spiritual maturity. That was in the early 90s.
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frank123lol
Yes at the time I needed a car,not some bs.Remember we were the ministry!
Why do you think twis roll call is so small?Everyone left!
The way is and always will be cheapskates.
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Oakspear
TWI teachings involved much more than what was in his pamphlets and books.
If you believed that Wierwille was okay with TWI people tithing to other organizations, I have no choice but to accept that, but that wasn't what I experienced.
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Ham
"laid (the money) at the apostles feet.."
then.. the real.. I can't find the word at the moment..
just pretend to be an apostle.
Act like one can do miracles..
have "truth"..
oh.. "new light".
"well, we oughter support those who steal, ahem, labor in da word.."
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Ham
No, but he "ordained" them. "those who labor(?) in the word.."
and like a group of lemmings. people STILL follow these falsely ordained "ministers" and "laborers" into any thing that resembles wayworld..
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waysider
And the scriptural basis for this would be--------????
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johnj
the saddest part of buying blessings by tithing (material prosperity) and ABS (spiritual prosperity) is that Jesus Christ is locked out. In TWI, it's all up to you and what you do. No help from the outside. All law, no Gospel (good news)
By contrast, Ephesians 1 repeats often in various ways... "every spiritual blessing in Christ."
Not "every spiritual blessing in your ABS."
TWI is more like "Tith-ians" than "Christ-ians." Jesus Christ came to take the load off of us, not to pile it on higher as TWI does.
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ChasUFarley
The Book of Moneybags, Chapter 10, verse 10. :)
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geisha779
Pastor,
There are many places you can hear a "Health and wealth" gospel. Not just TWI. Did Jesus really call us ALL to prosperity? Isn't the abundant life really found in Him--who is life. Does that verse (John 10:10) really have to do with material abundance at all? Isn't our life an abundant one--when filled with Him who is the best possible thing to offer? We can be poor and still have an abundant life in Jesus.
Other than basically a complete denial of Jesus-- What makes TWI different than any of these other "Ministries" who teach prosperity? Creflo Dollar--Benny Hinn-Joyce Meyers. . Prayer of Jabez. . . . . and how do people get to the place that they see abundance and fufillment as more of Him?
I really want to know.
There is nothing wrong with material abundance--but not all Christians have it--some suffer poverty--persecution--martyrdom--illness--pain--prison--the Lord loves and blesses them too. Some with a deep abiding faith in Him. Are they not given an abundant life?
A Christian's life can be marked out by suffering--for His names sake. You can't just explain all that away with believing. If we get to know some of these other Christians--we will find amazing faith and love--how come?
How come the love of many in TWI with abundance was so cold and legalistic? So hard and often cruel in the name of God?
Doesn't it tell us to warn the rich--doesn't mention the poor? Was Paul not believing or tithing when he said--He was hungry-no where to live--ragged clothes--pleading for the poor SAINTS in Jerusalem?
If Christians should be prosperous--what were all these guys doing wrong?
With all that bible and talk of God--in my estimation TWI was not true Christianity. Wrong heart--mixed up gospel(Good News) and a warped view of Jesus. BUT--what about these other ministries? Are they much different? Wrong heart--mixed up Gospel(Good News) and warped view of Jesus.
Doesn't it say? Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
-Matthew 6:19-21
The rain still falls on the just and the unjust--a Christian is not determined by his wealth or his poverty.
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
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