VPW and the Snowstorm - What do you believe?

[WordWolf]

Ok, supposedly, vpw was taped as saying the following in 1965

(or 1972, one or the other, and either makes the same point...

"

And so, all of this stuff began to build. And so finally, as I kept praying, I just said to the Father, I said, Father, teach me the Word - Teach me the Word, And one night, something happened, which to me is the greatest thing I don't - I see only one experience that perhaps is greater than this in the Bible, and that's the Apostle Paul's experience on the road to Damascus. Outside of that, I see nothing in the Word that equals how God revealed Himself to me and talked to me and told me as plain as day that, if I would study the Word, He would teach me the Word like He had not been able to teach it to anybody since the first generation, And of course at that time I thought, now that's a dandy, boy, if I learned this Word of God, everybody'll listen to me, the whole church will be blessed, my denomination will grow by leaps and bounds because we'll have the Word of God. And I thought that was terrific - but during the process of that revelation and I can't tell it all to you because we're already closing off.

But during the process of it, I said: "Father, how will I know that this is You and that You'll really teach it to me?" Because I had worked the Word in commentaries and the rest of it and I couldn't understand it, couldn't get it to fit. And it happened to be bright sunshine like today - like it's been today and yesterday what we people refer to, I guess as Indian Summer - beautiful day. And the sun was shining brightly; it was in the Fall of the year - gorgeous! And there wasn't a cloud in the sky. And just on the inside of me it seemed to say, Well, just say to the Father, Well, if - if it'll just snow - right now, you'll just know that this is God talking to you, But you see I'd never had much experience with God talking to me. And this business of He saying to me, just as audibly as I'm speaking to you, that He'd teach me the Word if I'd teach it, sort of shook me.

I'd been expecting to hear from heaven for a long time, but I hadn't heard that way before, you know. Ah, my ears were perhaps clogged up, since that time I've heard a lot of things - from Him. But, then I said, "Lord, if this is really true, I'd like to see it snow." And I opened my eyes, must not have been over three seconds, and I was sitting in front of the window looking East, the sun was - ah, West. The sun was in the West and there wasn't a cloud in the sky cause I could see the whole area. I closed my eyes when God said to me that He would teach me the Word if I'd teach it. And I said, Lord, to know that this is true, I'd like to see it snow, And I opened my eyes and it was pitch - almost pitch black outside and the snow was falling so thick, I have never seen it fall that thick since that day. And I sat in that little office and I cried like a baby, because I guess it was about my time to cry, because I'd grown up but didn't know the Word."

=========================

About 1970, documented in TW:LiL,

vpw said the following on tape:

"I was praying. And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless

there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on.

And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He

would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would

teach it to others.

Well, I nearly flew off my chair. I couldn't believe that God would talk to me."

""Well, on the day God spoke to me, I couldn't believe it. But then I

came to the point by the next day where I said to myself-maybe it's true. So the next

day I talked to God again. I said, 'Lord, if it's really true what you said to me

yesterday, if that was really you talking to me, you've got to give me a sign so that

I can really know, so that I can believe.'

The sky was crystal blue and clear. Not a cloud in sight. It was a beautiful early

autumn day. I said 'If that was really you, and you meant what you said, give me a

sign. Let me see it snow.' My eyes were tightly shut as I prayed. And then I

opened them.

The sky was so white and thick with snow, I couldn't see the tanks at the filling

station on the corner not 75 feet away." Doctor relates this phenomenon in a joyous

voice. "

=======================

Supposedly, this was a life-changing incident.

However, not only did he keep it a secret, even from his own wife,

for over 20 years,

but he seems unable to keep the DETAILS straight!

He was addressing God one way, then another.

His response was one thing, then another.

His skeptical response was immediate, then it was the next day.

The "snow" was a BLACK snow, then it was a white-out.

I expect a man to have difficulty remembering what he ate for lunch

a year ago, but if he supposedly had a life-changing experience,

he should remember it in great detail.

[Mike]

I look at it differently.

First of all, we know nothing of Mrs Wierwille's ignorance. That's far from established. I'd totally ignore that point until a lot more was established. AT LEAST I'd want to have the exact text of what she supposedly wrote.

Second, Dr OFTEN mentioned how God would tell people to keep quiet about things. It was a recurring theme in his teachings.

Third, people change in many ways from year to year, decade to decade. So do audiences. How things get expressed change with these evolutions. This happens with all of us.

Lastly, the supposed discrepancies between the accounts COULD be looked at as complimentary, like we look at the 4 Gospels.

I choose to look differently.

[Raf]

Or they could be looked at as evidence that VPW pulled this account out of his butt and didn't think it through carefully because he had grown more and more accustomed to not being questioned.

[Jim]

Anyone seen Galen lately? I believe he has a PFAL tape set and could give us an authoritative answer.

[Mark Clarke]

The above quotes from the class and TW:LIL are what I remember too. I remember VPW saying in the class that God told him He would teach him the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century if he would teach it to others. But he didn't say it was audible and he didn't mention the snow. I took the class for the first time in 1971, and the TW:LIL came out in '72. I remember being surprised when I read that the "promise" was audible, and then followed by the snow "phenomenon." What he said in the class and what he said in the book were probably mixed in the memories of many TWI followers.

As has been pointed out, though, it doesn't matter when he said it, we all know that he said it. The reason I brought up whether or not it was in the class was because OperaBuff had written:

It would be interesting to know what a psychologist or psychiatrist could tell us about PFAL. Someone who could explain why the snow stories were presented when they were during the class; i.e. why did vp chose to tell those things when he did. How did he psychologically prepare our minds to accept such things? I absolutely believed him when he told them during my first PFAL class. I was hooked.

For me, I was hooked when I read it, and it was talked up a lot more later, even though I didn't hear it in PFAL. I don't know if I would have believed it had I heard it in my first class anyway. It was one of those things that you didn't drop on new people, but shared with "seasoned" grads to increase their level of commitment (at least in the '70s).

But because it became commonly known lore that was often repeated or referred to, it made us less inclined to question his understanding of the Word. If God taught him, how could we think we had a better understanding? This is the psychological power that it had, no matter when we heard the story.

[Ham]

Someone who could explain why the snow stories were presented when they were during the class; i.e. why did vp chose to tell those things when he did.

Not that I'm a psychiatrist.. by a long shot..

but it seems he told these little "stinkers", the man in India, miraculously "healed" like Jesus did.. and the story of the audible voice from heaven.. and when the dust settled, went on to something that sounded slightly more believable.. like his "exclusive", "scientific" method of studying the bible..

maybe that lowered the resistance..

after all, how could a "fruitcake" develop this material.. but unknown to me at the time, even at it's best, it wasn't his to begin with..

I mean.. if he was a guy who heard from da almighty, SURELY we could trust him.. after all, other than that, he seemed about as ordinary as the next guy..

he already had (possibly fictitious) characters addressing him as "doctor".. maybe we oughter get with it and do the same..

after his "lordship" was established.. the product sold itself.. requests for documentation (i.e. healings, miracles) could then be easily beat down.

just a few thoughts anyway..

[Ham]

I think the conditioning was SO effective.. documented here at greasespot.. well over twenty years after the mogster has been stone, cold, dead, under the fountain.. my requests addressed to one or two individuals for "what results? what miracles are you talking about? what is the product actually DOING for YOU???" draw vague responses, and replies that I'm just carnal to even ask.. "after all ham, we BELIEVE first, then we SEE.."

OK.. you "believe".. what do you actually SEE?

"well.. you wouldn't understand it.."

It's really more pitiful than laughable though..

Edited January 6, 2009 by Ham

[Ham]

It's like following a person.. running the same cloverleaf on a freeway all day long..

honestly.. there IS actually a world on the other side of the off ramp. Seriously Mike.. you won't fall off the ends of the earth or anything..

maybe it wouldn't be as boring if the ride actually went SOMEWHERE to begin with..

Edited January 6, 2009 by Ham

[JeffSjo]

This one thing I'm certain of.

The stories of the revelations, phenomenon, and miracles served to bring people into TWI that really were looking for God to be real for them.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm fairly darn certain that Wierwille used these stories to weed out people who were not likely to fall for his twisted and dangerous doctrines. If anyone appeared to actually seriously consider whether or not these things were true I'm fairly certain that they would be given the bum's rush out the door as far as being anything other than being a simple bystander in TWI history.

The fact that these stories were put on par with believing the bible in TWI doctrine and practice really tees me off.

Like many other religious groups, proving things only applied to major problems outside of the fold.

(edited for clarity)

Edited January 6, 2009 by JeffSjo

[potato]

<vpw quote>

And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now.

</vpw quote>

this must be the phrase I'm remembering. I remembered he somehow included the listener, I guess as some kind of device to make it seem more real.

I just don't remember listening to the tape, though I did listen to quite a few vpw tapes early on.

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Or they could be looked at as evidence that VPW pulled this account out of his butt and didn't think it through carefully because he had grown more and more accustomed to not being questioned.

I agree with Raf...Sick Vic was making it up as he went...he loved to impress his "followers" with fantastic stories like the snow on the gaspumps...

Wierwille was one of the most insecure people I have ever known. He demanded adoration and all eyes were to be on him...never to be questioned and always to be obeyed...and believed...especially, believed.

The fake doctor encouraged people to elevate him with myths...from the snow on the gaspumps, his "gift ministries", his great trip to India, the snow storm in Tulsa...all of it was baloney...sliced thick

[Ham]

The fake doctor encouraged people to elevate him with myths..

and I think the "success" of the operation was due to the recruitment of those who could consistently display credibility.. like Doop, Heefner..and others.. and we were all unknowingly (maybe some knowingly..) following a madman.. seems when one found out, one also found oneself expendable.

[Mike]

It's all in HOW one looks at these things, and in WHAT one looks at.

I choose to look primarily at the end product of the 1942 incident: the written teachings.

As a result of that focus I now have the good and loving God in my life, a vast improvement over what I had before. I benefited and God gets the glory. It's not vpw who's elevated in my perspective; it's GOD who is elevated.

If I chose to look at all the things that were wrong in vpw's life and what went crazy in the ministry, then I'd get rapidly talked out of my relationship with God.

It's NOT the case that I spend a lot of time thinking that vpw was great. I just read his writings, writings that are actually from a large extended team of his prior teachers and his twi editors, not merely from vpw the man.

I don't sit around thinking "The snowstorm was true. The snowstorm was true." I sit around with the writings and find all kinds of great enjoyment in seeing the God of Jesus, Moses, Paul, David, and all those wonderful people proclaiming His promises to me. I sit around thinking "God is good. God is GOOD!"

[Ham]

If I chose to look at all the things that were wrong in vpw's life and what went crazy in the ministry, then I'd get rapidly talked out of my relationship with God.

maybe then the relationship isn't as strong as you think it is..

[Ham]

though they may share some common elements.. I think there is a distinct difference between and "intimate" relationship, and one which is merely "high maintenance"..

[so it was]

I chose "None" but if there was an "all" that could have applied to for the reasons that potato listed earlier. I think Thomas Bumgartners options have some value too, but maybe add the possibility of nuclear fallout to that ;)

[Mike]

maybe then the relationship isn't as strong as you think it is..

It's strong enough to endure LOTS of assaults, like the ones I get from people who are outraged by my choice of focus.

I think you misunderstood me. When I said "look at" I meant "look with focus, magnification, and high repetition."

It's not like I have to run and hide from the negatives that some want to magnify, I just simply choose to not magnify them myself. What I DO MAGNIFY are the positives I learn about God from the collaterals.

I can briefly look at the negatives, and deal with them. I just don't mull over them, over and over. I'm in a high repetition cycle with the goodies, though. It's in the areas of focus, repetition, and magnification that I reject the negatives and choose the positives.

Edited January 7, 2009 by Mike

[Mark Clarke]

It's all in HOW one looks at these things, and in WHAT one looks at.

I choose to look primarily at the end product of the 1942 incident: the written teachings.

Since that end product has been shown to be full of errors, it should make you question the source. But if you have a better relationship with God, that's great. He has reached people through (and in spite of) worse ministries than TWI.

Nevertheless, many followers were convinced and sold out to TWI and VPW because they believed that God had audibly spoken to him and made the promise in question. That is why it matters. But, as I said, if your relationship with God is not dependent on whether He spoke to VPW, more power to ya. (If you want to make your relationship with Him even better, why not study His Word without the errors of VPW's writings coloring your perception?)

[Ham]

I can briefly look at the negatives, and deal with them. I just don't mull over them over and over. I'm in a high repetition cycle with the goodies, though. It's in the areas of focus, repetition, and magnification that I reject the negatives and choose the positives.

actually I think I do understand you..

areas of focus, repetition and magnification..

in other words, its doing the same thing, over, and over, and over..

constantly "renewing the mind".. continuously speaking in tongues.. "witnessing".. reading the books..

constantly reminding God of his supposed areas of responsibility in the relationship.. (praying for "what's available" and all)

maybe I'm wrong.. but it looks like a "high maintenance" relationship.

so high maintenance.. that in YOUR words:

If I chose to look at all the things that were wrong in vpw's life and what went crazy in the ministry, then I'd get rapidly talked out of my relationship with God.

I think one day.. maybe not today, but one day you'll come to the realization "I just can't do this any more.."

EVERYTHING about the way was "high maintenance".. "friendships", if you'd call them that.. "eligibility" to hear the supposed newest and bestest teachings.. *any two believers who can renew their minds and all* marriages.. and last but not least, our "relationship" with the Almighty.. it was such a FRAGILE thing, it required constant renewing of the mind, speaking in tongues.. "doing" da word.. in short, constant NAGGING..

I just don't see much trust in a relationship like that anymore..

[Mike]

Since that end product has been shown to be full of errors, it should make you question the source.

The attitudes and tools of those "doing the showing" are not the same attitudes and tools I've adopted. Hence I think their "showing" is full errors. I don't have any reason to adopt their strategies. I don't see them turning thousands of people toward God's goodness like I saw vpw do with his ministry.

(If you want to make your relationship with Him even better, why not study His Word without the errors of VPW's writings coloring your perception?)

Well, I think I am doing this. I don't think the traditional sources for God's printed Word are valid enough, just approximate. It's not like you can point to a God-breathed text, ESPECIALLY IN ENGLISH, and say "That's God's Word."

What you study is actually an abstraction for God's Word, starting with English versions, then reaching back to relatively modern critical texts, then reaching back even farther to ancient fragments, leaning more and more on "expert" translators and language scholars to assist you. You make your many judgments as to which scholars to trust, and where, including yourself, and you hopefully reconstruct an image of what God's Word IS, and then you try to study it.

My approach is much simpler. I've come to believe that the 1942 incident was true, that God taught vpw what to put into print, and that is GOD'S solution to problem of abstraction that faces traditional Christians.

maybe I'm wrong.. but it looks like a "high maintenance" relationship.

I think you're mistakenly seeing "high maintenance" where I am experiencing "active enjoyment."

[potato]

so when you study, you've in essence put another layer of abstraction on top of the english versions because you choose to believe that vpw had insight no other human has since the apostle Paul, and that god spoke to him and made him see a snowstorm, even though there's no corroborating evidence.

so, even though vpw plagiarized, lied, raped, and used the humble to elevate himself, you judge him a worthy scholar, you judge him trustworthy, and now study god's "word" with a vpw filter.

I feel sorry for you.

[Mike]

I feel sorry for you.

I feel sorry for YOU. You're missing the good stuff and focused on bad. That HAS to be unhealthy.

In your zeal to magnify what is perceived as evil (and some might even be factual) you're missing the good that got put into print. If you were better aware of the good that is in print, then you might be able to make a better choice of focus.

Edited January 7, 2009 by Mike

[Raf]

Don't cry for me oh, New Knoxville.

The truth is I'm glad I left you...

[potato]

<snip>

In your zeal to magnify what is perceived as evil (and some might even be factual) you're missing the good that got put into print. If you were better aware of the good that is in print, then you might be able to make a better choice of focus.

oh, thanks for the laugh! I love your fallacious arguments. they're priceless! Edited January 7, 2009 by potato

[Raf]

but so costly.