Was WW likening lcm's purge's to what Waysider described? What Waysider described is being likened to what is described in what appears to be a poem about Nazi party takeover?
Was WW likening lcm's purge's to what Waysider described? What Waysider described is being likened to what is described in what appears to be a poem about Nazi party takeover?
Exactly... what are you not seeing here?
It is the methodology that is being compared... the complacency of one group to allow mistreatment of another because it isn't happening to "me".
TWI purged one category after another, and as long as you weren't found to be in that group it was easier to turn your head and ignore what was happening, even though it was happening to people in your fellowship or people you thought you knew well or were your friends. It was easy to say, "Well I guess I didn't really know that person as well as I thought. They must have really been hiding some serious sin to have gotten themselves M&A like that." Until it was YOUR turn, and the leadership came after YOU for something, and then it was too late to take a stand against the madness because everyone else would do just what you did, and turn their head.
The moral of the story is right is right, even if it's hard. And wrong is wrong and you should stand up to it, even if it isn't impacting you at the moment. If you allow evil to fester, it will eventually consume you, too.
To those of us who lived through the twi of the '90s the comparison is so obvious, it simply doesn't need to be spelled out.
That's not the way I remember the 90s. "Complacency" is not a word I would use on "Joe Believer".
This analogy(or whatever) makes no sense to me when describing the 90s. I find it to be a soft description of The Way.
Followers of The Way enjoy watching others be chewed out and kicked out. Standing up for what is right? What was there to stand for?
Evil to fester? What? It was always messed up.
No sense.
I disagree... LEADERSHIP enjoyed watching others get chewed up and kicked out. The rest of us were simply afraid of being the next victim. We were 'complacent' in that we didn't stand up for what was right (meaning standing AGAINST twi).
I'm sorry you cannot see the correlation here, but many of us feel it is an apt description of what happens whenever people turn a blind eye to someone else being wronged, which is what many of us did throughout the 90s (knowingly or unknowingly).
During all the famous yelling, face-meltings, and purging,
were all the people in the room (not the yeller, the regular people)
gleefully observing the whole process?
Or were they uncomfortable, and only relieved that it wasn't THEM that was the target?
Even in the most twisted fellowships, I hear people reporting that they regretted never speaking up,
and let others be verbally abused, or others never spoke up for them that knew better.
Or, are you saying that you were THRILLED during each face-melting you attended, without ever a thought
that it might have been misplaced?
I think in Bolshevik's post in the entire context, it was more that people should have spoken up, and felt relief that it wasn't them, more than being happy that others were being yelled at. Additionally, the comparison to the Nazis seems to have been more about standing up for others who were having their faces melted by leadership.
How many of us sat there and saw confrontations between egotistical way corpse and joe believer and did nothing, or worse, backed up our "leadership." I was too young to really do anything, but I remember seeing adults being yelled at and basically M&A in the living room of my own house while my parents sat there doing nothing, and people that we were friends with and ate dinner with and hung out with were being yelled at for stupid nonsensical things by an area coordinator who saw devil spirits lurking behind every door. I remember looking around at the room full of adults, seeing even the children of the people being yelled at, there looking at what was happening and doing nothing. I remember one gentleman that we used to go hunting on his land and he helped us in many ways being M&A for making a smartass comment to the area coordinator, thinking he was joking with the guy.
In the 90's, we learned never to question leaders, and to never open up and be too close to anyone else, or risk being M&A or having suspicion thrown on you based on some off the cuff remark with a "friend" or not having your house spotlessly clean at all times when a corps person might show up to visit.
I disagree... LEADERSHIP enjoyed watching others get chewed up and kicked out. The rest of us were simply afraid of being the next victim. We were 'complacent' in that we didn't stand up for what was right (meaning standing AGAINST twi).
I'm sorry you cannot see the correlation here, but many of us feel it is an apt description of what happens whenever people turn a blind eye to someone else being wronged, which is what many of us did throughout the 90s (knowingly or unknowingly).
yep. I saw plenty and was too afraid to speak up and be noticed. lots of people felt that way. the brave ones left in the night. the lucky ones got thrown out. the rest of us hoped we weren't the next target while pretending we had it all together. we hid our catholic alliances, homosexual sympathies, liberal sentiments, and humanitarian tendencies, until we believed we weren't one of those people and that we were living the more abundant life.
I am ashamed to say that I believed that if these guys said it...that it was right, that they worked for God. Any lack was in my own misunderstanding and lack of spiritual perception.
There were teachings that backed this up and enforced obedience. If we questioned leaders, it was the first step in the down fall like Eve. If we resisted even when wrongly accused, it was being stiff necked.
There was only one option if one desired to stay in God`s will and within the protection of God`s hedge. Hang your head meekly, accept their judgement, beg forgivness for your lapse in judgement and hope that the leader cared enough to help you fix whatever was wrong with you that caused the spiritual weakness in the first place.
I am ashamed to say that I believed that if these guys said it...that it was right, that they worked for God. Any lack was in my own misunderstanding and lack of spiritual perception.
There were teachings that backed this up and enforced obedience. If we questioned leaders, it was the first step in the down fall like Eve. If we resisted even when wrongly accused, it was being stiff necked.
There was only one option if one desired to stay in God`s will and within the protection of God`s hedge. Hang your head meekly, accept their judgement, beg forgivness for your lapse in judgement and hope that the leader cared enough to help you fix whatever was wrong with you that caused the spiritual weakness in the first place.
There's no reason to be ashamed now, and I think you gave an apt description of what everyone felt. I do think that everyone that stayed quiet through those times believed as you did. In a sense, we were all brainwashed to put obeying leadership above our own morals and our own common sense. Since I left on my own, I don't condemn everyone so much, but I imagine if I had been kicked out of TWI, I would feel a lot of anger and bitterness towards my supposed fellow-believers and friends that allowed it to happen.
I disagree... LEADERSHIP enjoyed watching others get chewed up and kicked out. The rest of us were simply afraid of being the next victim. We were 'complacent' in that we didn't stand up for what was right (meaning standing AGAINST twi).
I'm sorry you cannot see the correlation here, but many of us feel it is an apt description of what happens whenever people turn a blind eye to someone else being wronged, which is what many of us did throughout the 90s (knowingly or unknowingly).
Followers of The Way enjoy being yelled at and seeing others get yelled at. "Turning a blind eye" does not make sense. This was a way of life. This was twi, the belief system.
I remember after Rosie giving twi a "woman's touch" people talking about how it didn't feel right to not get yelled at as much. They joked about how the want lcm to come back and start yelling.
Why people insist on distinguishing between leaders and followers concerning behavior I don't know.
Followers of The Way enjoy watching others be chewed out and kicked out. Standing up for what is right? What was there to stand for?
were all the people in the room (not the yeller, the regular people)
gleefully observing the whole process?
Or were they uncomfortable, and only relieved that it wasn't THEM that was the target?
Even in the most twisted fellowships, I hear people reporting that they regretted never speaking up,
and let others be verbally abused, or others never spoke up for them that knew better.
I think people's reactions depended on their mindset at the time. Â There were some involved with and also those leading these facemeltings and M & A sessions who had a certain inflated sense of their own righteousness who felt they were doing the Lord's work in purging unclean members who didn't measure up to their spiritual yardstick. Â I have even spoken to certain of these people decades later, and they still think they were right and speak disparagingly regarding the victim. Â Twi facilitated gossipy conniver manipulative type people and their ladder climbing minions, especially if they had the ear of a leader, the poor naive person they centered their sights on didn't stand a chance.
There were also many who unquestioningly mimicked, followed lockstep behind, and approved of whatever the leaders deemed as being right-on spiritually. Many times believers, who never showed any tangible signs of being "possessed" (or spiritually dark or lazy or having problems...ad infinitum) could be M & A'd by these leaders, without any objections being raised by anyone else.  People were trained not to question leaders as to the why's and wherefores, and to believe in their leader's heightened sense of spirituality and discernment, so whatever the leader said about the victim was believed and was counted as spiritually right..it was like the Jedi mind trick, case closed, and move along, there's nothing to see here.
If someone got made fun of, be it someone in twi or outside, it was a good teaching. If the bible was read, booorrrrinnng.
FOLLOWERS of The Way like others to be torn apart. Someone's got to be the enemy for them to verbally lambast. That's what someone in twi salivates for.
Who are you going to stand up to? Leadership? no, yourself.
Even in the late '80's LCM was on the prowl for 'weak' Corps and problem believers, but unless you knew the individual or the family, you would have had no idea these things were going on.
i also went to Indiana for LCM's live advanced class about that time
and recall LCM saying something about homosexuals like "they deserve to have a glass rod inserted in their you-know-what and shattered"
no kidding
just felt i'd post this to add to the story
he said a lot of violent, sadistic things like that about homosexuals. I lived in the 250 mile radius for years, and heard it enough to understand now what a hateful person he was toward anyone not as beautiful and perfect as he was. he said a lot of nasty things about disabled people as well.
Disabled? Â Really? Â How could he possibly be threatened by disabled people? Â He must have forgotten about the many Jesus healed. Â
It makes perfect sense when you view "the ministry" as the money making business that it was.
They have a product, PFAL, that they claim can lead people into wholeness, but, they have customers whose presence calls attention to the product's short comings. Get rid of customers who can't demonstrate how the product supposedly helped them. Bad business to have them around. What a loving bunch they were.
Disabled? Â Really? Â How could he possibly be threatened by disabled people? Â He must have forgotten about the many Jesus healed. Â
his position was that they should have been aborted. people who became disabled were another thing altogether, if they couldn't get healed it was their fault, but he had a lot of hate toward imperfect people who should have been aborted corrupting the gene pool.
It makes perfect sense when you view "the ministry" as the money making business that it was.
They have a product, PFAL, that they claim can lead people into wholeness, but, they have customers whose presence calls attention to the product's short comings. Get rid of customers who can't demonstrate how the product supposedly helped them. Bad business to have them around. What a loving bunch they were.
no no no, Imaginationland doesn't work that way.
"The law of Believing", it's about power more than money.
During all the famous yelling, face-meltings, and purging,
were all the people in the room (not the yeller, the regular people)
gleefully observing the whole process?
Or were they uncomfortable, and only relieved that it wasn't THEM that was the target?
Even in the most twisted fellowships, I hear people reporting that they regretted never speaking up,
and let others be verbally abused, or others never spoke up for them that knew better.
Or, are you saying that you were THRILLED during each face-melting you attended, without ever a thought
that it might have been misplaced?
Once, during a class on Acts, the Limb leader got up and started talking about this guy and his wife. Mentioned things like how often they had intercourse and such. The Limb leader then bragged, yelling of course, about how he'd backed the man up against the wall yelling at him, asking if he was a homo. The man finally broke down and said he was. (Mind as well shoulda tied him to a rock and see if he'd float.)
After that, the people in the class, the followers, would stand up, one by one, and praise the Limb leader for what he has done for them.
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Bolshevik
Was WW likening lcm's purge's to what Waysider described? What Waysider described is being likened to what is described in what appears to be a poem about Nazi party takeover?
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TheHighWay
Exactly... what are you not seeing here?
It is the methodology that is being compared... the complacency of one group to allow mistreatment of another because it isn't happening to "me".
TWI purged one category after another, and as long as you weren't found to be in that group it was easier to turn your head and ignore what was happening, even though it was happening to people in your fellowship or people you thought you knew well or were your friends. It was easy to say, "Well I guess I didn't really know that person as well as I thought. They must have really been hiding some serious sin to have gotten themselves M&A like that." Until it was YOUR turn, and the leadership came after YOU for something, and then it was too late to take a stand against the madness because everyone else would do just what you did, and turn their head.
The moral of the story is right is right, even if it's hard. And wrong is wrong and you should stand up to it, even if it isn't impacting you at the moment. If you allow evil to fester, it will eventually consume you, too.
To those of us who lived through the twi of the '90s the comparison is so obvious, it simply doesn't need to be spelled out.
(edited because it did a funky double-post thing)
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Bolshevik
That's not the way I remember the 90s. "Complacency" is not a word I would use on "Joe Believer".
This analogy(or whatever) makes no sense to me when describing the 90s. I find it to be a soft description of The Way.
Followers of The Way enjoy watching others be chewed out and kicked out. Standing up for what is right? What was there to stand for?
Evil to fester? What? It was always messed up.
No sense.
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TheHighWay
I disagree... LEADERSHIP enjoyed watching others get chewed up and kicked out. The rest of us were simply afraid of being the next victim. We were 'complacent' in that we didn't stand up for what was right (meaning standing AGAINST twi).
I'm sorry you cannot see the correlation here, but many of us feel it is an apt description of what happens whenever people turn a blind eye to someone else being wronged, which is what many of us did throughout the 90s (knowingly or unknowingly).
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WordWolf
Stop and think really hard.
During all the famous yelling, face-meltings, and purging,
were all the people in the room (not the yeller, the regular people)
gleefully observing the whole process?
Or were they uncomfortable, and only relieved that it wasn't THEM that was the target?
Even in the most twisted fellowships, I hear people reporting that they regretted never speaking up,
and let others be verbally abused, or others never spoke up for them that knew better.
Or, are you saying that you were THRILLED during each face-melting you attended, without ever a thought
that it might have been misplaced?
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Mister P-Mosh
I think in Bolshevik's post in the entire context, it was more that people should have spoken up, and felt relief that it wasn't them, more than being happy that others were being yelled at. Additionally, the comparison to the Nazis seems to have been more about standing up for others who were having their faces melted by leadership.
How many of us sat there and saw confrontations between egotistical way corpse and joe believer and did nothing, or worse, backed up our "leadership." I was too young to really do anything, but I remember seeing adults being yelled at and basically M&A in the living room of my own house while my parents sat there doing nothing, and people that we were friends with and ate dinner with and hung out with were being yelled at for stupid nonsensical things by an area coordinator who saw devil spirits lurking behind every door. I remember looking around at the room full of adults, seeing even the children of the people being yelled at, there looking at what was happening and doing nothing. I remember one gentleman that we used to go hunting on his land and he helped us in many ways being M&A for making a smartass comment to the area coordinator, thinking he was joking with the guy.
In the 90's, we learned never to question leaders, and to never open up and be too close to anyone else, or risk being M&A or having suspicion thrown on you based on some off the cuff remark with a "friend" or not having your house spotlessly clean at all times when a corps person might show up to visit.
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potato
yep. I saw plenty and was too afraid to speak up and be noticed. lots of people felt that way. the brave ones left in the night. the lucky ones got thrown out. the rest of us hoped we weren't the next target while pretending we had it all together. we hid our catholic alliances, homosexual sympathies, liberal sentiments, and humanitarian tendencies, until we believed we weren't one of those people and that we were living the more abundant life.
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rascal
I am ashamed to say that I believed that if these guys said it...that it was right, that they worked for God. Any lack was in my own misunderstanding and lack of spiritual perception.
There were teachings that backed this up and enforced obedience. If we questioned leaders, it was the first step in the down fall like Eve. If we resisted even when wrongly accused, it was being stiff necked.
There was only one option if one desired to stay in God`s will and within the protection of God`s hedge. Hang your head meekly, accept their judgement, beg forgivness for your lapse in judgement and hope that the leader cared enough to help you fix whatever was wrong with you that caused the spiritual weakness in the first place.
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Mister P-Mosh
There's no reason to be ashamed now, and I think you gave an apt description of what everyone felt. I do think that everyone that stayed quiet through those times believed as you did. In a sense, we were all brainwashed to put obeying leadership above our own morals and our own common sense. Since I left on my own, I don't condemn everyone so much, but I imagine if I had been kicked out of TWI, I would feel a lot of anger and bitterness towards my supposed fellow-believers and friends that allowed it to happen.
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Bolshevik
I'm saying they enjoyed it, and still do. That is when the adversary gets it ya know.
Lord of The Flies may be a better description.
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Bolshevik
Followers of The Way enjoy being yelled at and seeing others get yelled at. "Turning a blind eye" does not make sense. This was a way of life. This was twi, the belief system.
I remember after Rosie giving twi a "woman's touch" people talking about how it didn't feel right to not get yelled at as much. They joked about how the want lcm to come back and start yelling.
Why people insist on distinguishing between leaders and followers concerning behavior I don't know.
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now I see
I think people's reactions depended on their mindset at the time. Â There were some involved with and also those leading these facemeltings and M & A sessions who had a certain inflated sense of their own righteousness who felt they were doing the Lord's work in purging unclean members who didn't measure up to their spiritual yardstick. Â I have even spoken to certain of these people decades later, and they still think they were right and speak disparagingly regarding the victim. Â Twi facilitated gossipy conniver manipulative type people and their ladder climbing minions, especially if they had the ear of a leader, the poor naive person they centered their sights on didn't stand a chance.
There were also many who unquestioningly mimicked, followed lockstep behind, and approved of whatever the leaders deemed as being right-on spiritually. Many times believers, who never showed any tangible signs of being "possessed" (or spiritually dark or lazy or having problems...ad infinitum) could be M & A'd by these leaders, without any objections being raised by anyone else.  People were trained not to question leaders as to the why's and wherefores, and to believe in their leader's heightened sense of spirituality and discernment, so whatever the leader said about the victim was believed and was counted as spiritually right..it was like the Jedi mind trick, case closed, and move along, there's nothing to see here.
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Bolshevik
Heck, just remember lcm's "teachings".
If someone got made fun of, be it someone in twi or outside, it was a good teaching. If the bible was read, booorrrrinnng.
FOLLOWERS of The Way like others to be torn apart. Someone's got to be the enemy for them to verbally lambast. That's what someone in twi salivates for.
Who are you going to stand up to? Leadership? no, yourself.
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waysider
Must have been long after I left.
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krys
Waysider you have no idea! You haven't really lived until you've had to sit through at least one of those screaming fits.
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waysider
Oh, we had our share of screaming fits in FLO.
They were usually (but not always) directed at the whole group, though.
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now I see
Even in the late '80's LCM was on the prowl for 'weak' Corps and problem believers, but unless you knew the individual or the family, you would have had no idea these things were going on.
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sirguessalot
a few things come to mind when reading this thread
i was in the last wave of WOWs (93-94)
we did not run a single full successful class during my WOW year (in Las Vegas)
although we saw so many "fog year cop-outs" come back to the Vegas branch (we called them "be-backs")
that they moved the limb leader from Reno to Vegas
then, at the ROA "home-coming", i even accepted one of the "cancelled" WOWs as a roomate
...now that he was homeless in Ohio, all packed and nowhere to go
i also went to Indiana for LCM's live advanced class about that time
and recall LCM saying something about homosexuals like "they deserve to have a glass rod inserted in their you-know-what and shattered"
no kidding
just felt i'd post this to add to the story
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potato
he said a lot of violent, sadistic things like that about homosexuals. I lived in the 250 mile radius for years, and heard it enough to understand now what a hateful person he was toward anyone not as beautiful and perfect as he was. he said a lot of nasty things about disabled people as well.
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now I see
Disabled? Â Really? Â How could he possibly be threatened by disabled people? Â He must have forgotten about the many Jesus healed. Â
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waysider
It makes perfect sense when you view "the ministry" as the money making business that it was.
They have a product, PFAL, that they claim can lead people into wholeness, but, they have customers whose presence calls attention to the product's short comings. Get rid of customers who can't demonstrate how the product supposedly helped them. Bad business to have them around. What a loving bunch they were.
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potato
his position was that they should have been aborted. people who became disabled were another thing altogether, if they couldn't get healed it was their fault, but he had a lot of hate toward imperfect people who should have been aborted corrupting the gene pool.
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Bolshevik
no no no, Imaginationland doesn't work that way.
"The law of Believing", it's about power more than money.
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Bolshevik
Once, during a class on Acts, the Limb leader got up and started talking about this guy and his wife. Mentioned things like how often they had intercourse and such. The Limb leader then bragged, yelling of course, about how he'd backed the man up against the wall yelling at him, asking if he was a homo. The man finally broke down and said he was. (Mind as well shoulda tied him to a rock and see if he'd float.)
After that, the people in the class, the followers, would stand up, one by one, and praise the Limb leader for what he has done for them.
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