I've been in that type of situation. It's amazing the things you will agree to in order to take the pressure off. I probably would have confessed to being a potted plant if I thought it would help.
Everyone seemed to like it. They go back to their fellowships and homes and reinforce these attitudes. The leaders just gave them what they wanted.
his position was that they should have been aborted. people who became disabled were another thing altogether, if they couldn't get healed it was their fault, but he had a lot of hate toward imperfect people who should have been aborted corrupting the gene pool.
How vicious of him, it's surprising how he became so corrupt and bereft of the love of God and the love Jesus illustrated, LCM became the antithesis of Godly thought and actions, and it's a wonder people didn't stand up and walk out on him when he delivered these abominations.
These types of diatribes from LCM were totally unacceptable behavior from someone who claimed he was a christian minister and for that matter, from any christian in general.
I learned from the adults: Face Melting = Progress. Yeah, I enjoyed it. Even when I was being "face-melted". It meant I would learn something.
I think I get you. the meek love admonition, so that they'll grow in the lord. if you didn't love it, you weren't meek. so you talked yourself into loving it no matter how you really felt, or how sick you felt at the time. those were just devil spirits tempting you to doubt the word, right? so tell them to get lost, and convince yourself that the evil playing out in front of your face is really the good.
Before the last Rock of Ages festival in 1995 LCM stated that The Word was Already Over the World, that the vision than God gave VPW was complete and that the rightly divided God´s Word was available to the ones that were hungry.
Today we may se that the way splinter groups are getting stronger, and in some forms they are related to each other, also the more radical that are here in the cafe.
I learned from the adults: Face Melting = Progress. Yeah, I enjoyed it. Even when I was being "face-melted". It meant I would learn something.
Why, WW, would I have thought anything else?
Bolshevik, I think it is all a dirty mess and nothing is quite that simple. There were a lot of screwed up things going on and when it came to people "weeding" out homosexuals, yes, I certainly think there were people that enjoyed it. It fed into their hate for and fear of homosexuals. There was also the convincing ourselves that what was happening to us (yelling, screaming, other abuse) was what was best for us. We were deficient in some way. That "humbleness" still affects me to this day. I always thought that there had to be sometime that I wasn't getting, something I didn't see, because they were the spiritual overseers. (How f'ed up that term alone- "overseer") Good grief what a screwed up set of scenarios most of us went through.
I was apart or in the room and eventually the receiver of a number of "reproof sessions." The last one was clear that these guys thought that this was what was best for me, like a drug addicts intervention, but for piddly sh!+. None of the ones I went through felt good. As a teen, I was at a corps week where a long time staff member was stood up in a morning meeting in the Way Woods and totally reamed for something he said off the cuff during break that LCM overheard. Talk about uncomfortable. I was in some where the husband was pitted against the wife or vise versa. Uncomfortable. Meetings where leaders bad mouthed their own flesh and blood because they had "copped out." That was uncomfortable but was also a little scary and moments like that stuck with me right up to the time that I left, thinking my family might never talk to me again. I was at the butt end of the worst kind of scrutiny and interrogation for having a roommate that may or may not have done something terrible, or for getting mugged. I was called by my LC and told not to talk to my parents anymore because they were now on probation. Twice!
There are plenty psychological issues to look into but it seem pretty clear to me that we were conditioned to act a certain way, to respond a certain way (mandatory thank you letters, stand and clap for this or that, dress like this or that), think a certain way (cliche after cliche, retemory after retemory, book after book and class after class). It obviously would have fed into the worst in people but it also conditioned us stoop to a new low, bend over and say thank you sir may I have another . Learned helplessness. Learned hatred.
How many stood up and clapped for the first performance of "Wash My Feet in the Blood of the Wicked?" All of us. I was a little freaked out about it but I did clapp.
Bolshevik, I think it is all a dirty mess and nothing is quite that simple. There were a lot of screwed up things going on and when it came to people "weeding" out homosexuals, yes, I certainly think there were people that enjoyed it. It fed into their hate for and fear of homosexuals. There was also the convincing ourselves that what was happening to us (yelling, screaming, other abuse) was what was best for us. We were deficient in some way. That "humbleness" still affects me to this day. I always thought that there had to be sometime that I wasn't getting, something I didn't see, because they were the spiritual overseers. (How f'ed up that term alone- "overseer") Good grief what a screwed up set of scenarios most of us went through.
I don't think it had anything to do with hate and fear of homosexuals. Homosexuals were an easy excuse for hate. Why did people join The Way in the first place? They took a class that makes no sense and stuck around. There's something they liked.
I know I needed no convincing about what was happening back then. I hadn't been introduced to anything else, that was normal behavior to me. In reflection, I'm angry. So many just miss Wierwille, and Martindale. Talking to those in twi today, these people are nuts. They love to hurt (in their mind). It's what they enjoy. Doesn't matter if the target is homosexuals or protestants, or their mom, or themselves.
"overseer", yeah stupid word
. . .
There are plenty psychological issues to look into but it seem pretty clear to me that we were conditioned to act a certain way, to respond a certain way (mandatory thank you letters, stand and clap for this or that, dress like this or that), think a certain way (cliche after cliche, retemory after retemory, book after book and class after class). It obviously would have fed into the worst in people but it also conditioned us stoop to a new low, bend over and say thank you sir may I have another . Learned helplessness. Learned hatred.
How many stood up and clapped for the first performance of "Wash My Feet in the Blood of the Wicked?" All of us. I was a little freaked out about it but I did clapp.
. . .
Are these psychological issues? Is it learned? Or just the way people are?
Are these psychological issues? Is it learned? Or just the way people are?
No people aren't just that way unless they have serious issues to begin with, but everyone that is in the TWI right now are not hate filled crazy people. I know because some of my family is still in. There IS learned helplessness though.
Like the kidnap victim that defends their captor or the abused wife that keeps coming back for more instead of running and never looking back. It isn't necessarily that there is something deficient about the victim. It is learned like anything else, just as you have to unlearn or relearn how get rid of that "way brain."
Regarding learned helplessness, there was a test done on rats that were caged in a very small place and given food and water, all their basic needs were met. They did this for some time and after quite a while they removed the cage and still gave it food and water. The rats would not move. They moved the food away. They would not move. They tried to entice them with the opposite sex. They would not move. They pushed it and it just slid along. I won't get into all the brain chemistry, but in this state of learned helplessness it mimics depression. You don't create any new brain cells. They have increased stress, decreased pleasure, and on and on. It changes your brain chemistry. It is learned and it chemically, psychologically, biologically changes you.
I think of these things when I talk to people still in the Way, and I think "Bingo!" I also know it from my own personal experiences and all the stories here that confirm my experiences and beyond. I feel sorry for those people still in. Their basic needs are met. Sure, do they really seem happy? Are they doing what they've always wanted to do? Are they really living a "more than abundant life?" No, no, no. Are they still rattling off the same old sayings and ideas that are decades old and don't actually work or make sense? Yes. Do they have an original thought in their head? Not usually. They only think they are thinking.
They have been confined to an intellectual and religious box. Usually basic needs are met. They are poked and prodded and belittled to stay in that box while being told that everything they could possibly want and all the power of the creator is at their figure tips if they only stay in that box. You see it here, that even after that box has been lifted that some people still stay put right in the same spot. While others gradually relearn how to live and grow as a healthy person again.
It IS enraging at times when I think about it. But put the blame where blame is due and the rest of them just pray or hope or whatever that they move on eventually.
THEY are the ones that need to get over it and move on!
eh, I've seen too many of those weird "looks in their eyes" to think much differently. Both leadership and followers. Maybe giving and taking verbal lashing is like an initiation of sorts.
Sometimes I think of gladiator games where the wayfers are like the crowd, and leadership is like Caesar, giving a thumbs up or down to please the crowd at times. Of course nobody's limbs get torn off.
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Bolshevik
Everyone seemed to like it. They go back to their fellowships and homes and reinforce these attitudes. The leaders just gave them what they wanted.
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now I see
How vicious of him, it's surprising how he became so corrupt and bereft of the love of God and the love Jesus illustrated, LCM became the antithesis of Godly thought and actions, and it's a wonder people didn't stand up and walk out on him when he delivered these abominations.
These types of diatribes from LCM were totally unacceptable behavior from someone who claimed he was a christian minister and for that matter, from any christian in general.
Edited by now I seeLink to comment
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frank123lol
It seemed,Right before I left twi,They the leaders,Liked you more the more you returned their scorn,maybe
it was just standing up to them.
The prevailing word,the promised land,it was more like a highway to hell.
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Bolshevik
I learned from the adults: Face Melting = Progress. Yeah, I enjoyed it. Even when I was being "face-melted". It meant I would learn something.
Why, WW, would I have thought anything else?
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potato
I think I get you. the meek love admonition, so that they'll grow in the lord. if you didn't love it, you weren't meek. so you talked yourself into loving it no matter how you really felt, or how sick you felt at the time. those were just devil spirits tempting you to doubt the word, right? so tell them to get lost, and convince yourself that the evil playing out in front of your face is really the good.
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waysider
What a sick and twisted place it became.
I'm so glad I left when I did.
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Ham
I like that word.. "think"..
excuse my manners. Is it Theme X.. or The Mex?
welcome to the cafe..
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themex
Hi, Ham. God Bless you and thank you.
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lindyhopper
Bolshevik, I think it is all a dirty mess and nothing is quite that simple. There were a lot of screwed up things going on and when it came to people "weeding" out homosexuals, yes, I certainly think there were people that enjoyed it. It fed into their hate for and fear of homosexuals. There was also the convincing ourselves that what was happening to us (yelling, screaming, other abuse) was what was best for us. We were deficient in some way. That "humbleness" still affects me to this day. I always thought that there had to be sometime that I wasn't getting, something I didn't see, because they were the spiritual overseers. (How f'ed up that term alone- "overseer") Good grief what a screwed up set of scenarios most of us went through.
I was apart or in the room and eventually the receiver of a number of "reproof sessions." The last one was clear that these guys thought that this was what was best for me, like a drug addicts intervention, but for piddly sh!+. None of the ones I went through felt good. As a teen, I was at a corps week where a long time staff member was stood up in a morning meeting in the Way Woods and totally reamed for something he said off the cuff during break that LCM overheard. Talk about uncomfortable. I was in some where the husband was pitted against the wife or vise versa. Uncomfortable. Meetings where leaders bad mouthed their own flesh and blood because they had "copped out." That was uncomfortable but was also a little scary and moments like that stuck with me right up to the time that I left, thinking my family might never talk to me again. I was at the butt end of the worst kind of scrutiny and interrogation for having a roommate that may or may not have done something terrible, or for getting mugged. I was called by my LC and told not to talk to my parents anymore because they were now on probation. Twice!
There are plenty psychological issues to look into but it seem pretty clear to me that we were conditioned to act a certain way, to respond a certain way (mandatory thank you letters, stand and clap for this or that, dress like this or that), think a certain way (cliche after cliche, retemory after retemory, book after book and class after class). It obviously would have fed into the worst in people but it also conditioned us stoop to a new low, bend over and say thank you sir may I have another . Learned helplessness. Learned hatred.
How many stood up and clapped for the first performance of "Wash My Feet in the Blood of the Wicked?" All of us. I was a little freaked out about it but I did clapp.
WOW was crap, Mex!
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Bolshevik
I don't think it had anything to do with hate and fear of homosexuals. Homosexuals were an easy excuse for hate. Why did people join The Way in the first place? They took a class that makes no sense and stuck around. There's something they liked.
I know I needed no convincing about what was happening back then. I hadn't been introduced to anything else, that was normal behavior to me. In reflection, I'm angry. So many just miss Wierwille, and Martindale. Talking to those in twi today, these people are nuts. They love to hurt (in their mind). It's what they enjoy. Doesn't matter if the target is homosexuals or protestants, or their mom, or themselves.
"overseer", yeah stupid word
Are these psychological issues? Is it learned? Or just the way people are?
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lindyhopper
No people aren't just that way unless they have serious issues to begin with, but everyone that is in the TWI right now are not hate filled crazy people. I know because some of my family is still in. There IS learned helplessness though.
Like the kidnap victim that defends their captor or the abused wife that keeps coming back for more instead of running and never looking back. It isn't necessarily that there is something deficient about the victim. It is learned like anything else, just as you have to unlearn or relearn how get rid of that "way brain."
Regarding learned helplessness, there was a test done on rats that were caged in a very small place and given food and water, all their basic needs were met. They did this for some time and after quite a while they removed the cage and still gave it food and water. The rats would not move. They moved the food away. They would not move. They tried to entice them with the opposite sex. They would not move. They pushed it and it just slid along. I won't get into all the brain chemistry, but in this state of learned helplessness it mimics depression. You don't create any new brain cells. They have increased stress, decreased pleasure, and on and on. It changes your brain chemistry. It is learned and it chemically, psychologically, biologically changes you.
I think of these things when I talk to people still in the Way, and I think "Bingo!" I also know it from my own personal experiences and all the stories here that confirm my experiences and beyond. I feel sorry for those people still in. Their basic needs are met. Sure, do they really seem happy? Are they doing what they've always wanted to do? Are they really living a "more than abundant life?" No, no, no. Are they still rattling off the same old sayings and ideas that are decades old and don't actually work or make sense? Yes. Do they have an original thought in their head? Not usually. They only think they are thinking.
They have been confined to an intellectual and religious box. Usually basic needs are met. They are poked and prodded and belittled to stay in that box while being told that everything they could possibly want and all the power of the creator is at their figure tips if they only stay in that box. You see it here, that even after that box has been lifted that some people still stay put right in the same spot. While others gradually relearn how to live and grow as a healthy person again.
It IS enraging at times when I think about it. But put the blame where blame is due and the rest of them just pray or hope or whatever that they move on eventually.
THEY are the ones that need to get over it and move on!
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Bolshevik
eh, I've seen too many of those weird "looks in their eyes" to think much differently. Both leadership and followers. Maybe giving and taking verbal lashing is like an initiation of sorts.
Sometimes I think of gladiator games where the wayfers are like the crowd, and leadership is like Caesar, giving a thumbs up or down to please the crowd at times. Of course nobody's limbs get torn off.
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