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Ananias and Saphira


JeffSjo
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Dear Rascal,

Thank you for saying that it was o.k. to re-post this one of yours to start a doctrinal thread. This way anybody can click on the arrow to see the conversation that inspired this thread.

I know this thread might seem like a moot point to you. I might feel that way if anyone thought that handling a few scriptures could make up for a nightmare experience in my life. But it does also relate to my splinter group experience, so once again, thank you.

One wonders how *great* JT could be if he associates with Geere KNOWING what kind of monster the man was. Knowing what VP was....I just have a really tough time reconciling the image of the guy I thought of for so many years as a hero with being complicit with these guys.

I really liked him and Naomi. But then again, they were the ones that insisted that getting pregnant wasn`t a sin....no biggie. rather.... it was in allowing the little paracite to interfere with the completion of ones wow or way corpes commitment that set one outside of God`s will. Might die like Annanias and Saphira when THEY lied to God.

You cannot break a vow to God :( That was what I learned from them during my wow year.

Acts 5 (Tyndale's NT- 1985, Yale University Press doesn't have the verses in it.)

A certain man named Ananias with Saphira his wife sold a possession, and kept away part of the price (his wife also being of counsel) and brought a certain part, and laid it down at the apostles' feet. Then said Peter: Ananias, how is it that Satan hath filled thine heart, that thou shouldest lie unto the holy ghost, and keep away part of the price of the livelyhood: Pertained it not unto thee only, and after it was sold, was not the price in thine own power? How is it that thou hast conceived this thing in thine heart? Thou hast not lied to men, but unto God.

____________________

If I recall correctly, at the time my splinter group leader was spouting this scripture the group was facing financial pressure. They at about that time had to sell a camp that they had bought and the leader even said once that we wouldn't like life very much if we had to sell his camp.

At that time I told my wife that these verses were not an exhortation to give everything. I told her that they exhorted us to be honest about the things that we had in our own power. I also told them that if I gave to the ministry it was my decision because as this record states, my giving is in my own power. My wife was not happy, and neither was leadership. I did not change my mind.

I found these verses enabled me to resist my splinter group's will.

I think that anytime they are used to enslave people they are twisted and misused. And as Rascal shared, they were used to abuse her. They were used to abuse me too.

If I recall rightly it wasn't long after this I came to twig. We were waiting for Victor Barnard to show up that day for fellowship too. As I walked in the sweet oldest daughter of the thug who later moved my wife out of my house said out loud, "Here's the Victor!" when I walked in the house. Her mother just quietly led her away. Nobody ever said anything to me about it later.....scmucks.

(edited for spelling)

Edited by JeffSjo
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I remember that section of scripture being used to suggest that, if you were ever less than totally honest with leadership, an unpleasant fate awaited you. In other words, it was used to control people and keep them in a naive state of vulnerability and submission. We trusted them. They betrayed our trust.

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I remember that section of scripture being used to suggest that, if you were ever less than totally honest with leadership, an unpleasant fate awaited you. In other words, it was used to control people and keep them in a naive state of vulnerability and submission. We trusted them. They betrayed our trust.

I also heard i used in reference to tithing your whole 10% plus more!

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Yeah...sigh It must have been in the fine print that when you applied to go into the corpes or wow that you were entering an unbreakable commitment to God, an irrevocable vow :(

SO glad that you stood up to your leaders Jeff...I didn`t...after being shown that record..... I just sucked it up and did what was necessary in order to remain in the center of God`s will/protection.

Kill your baby or God can`t protect you any more...I have said it before, I don`t think twi was much better than the mayans (or was it incans) that sacrificed their children to appease their Gods.

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Yeah...sigh It must have been in the fine print that when you applied to go into the corpes or wow that you were entering an unbreakable commitment to God, an irrevocable vow :(

SO glad that you stood up to your leaders Jeff...I didn`t...after being shown that record..... I just sucked it up and did what was necessary in order to remain in the center of God`s will/protection.

Kill your baby or God can`t protect you any more...I have said it before, I don`t think twi was much better than the mayans (or was it incans) that sacrificed their children to appease their Gods.

Dear Rascal,

We were all taken in to one degree or another. You've done real well for yourself since those days and if I really knew you I'm certain that I would be proud to know you.

I've not done well with my new start so far, but the fat lady isn't singing yet. There is still hope. I get those sentiments from Ecclesiastes, but they seem to apply to me right now.

My splinter group leader was trying to convince one of my friends to give his baby up for adoption once. The baby was retarded and my friend almost gave him up. But he told me, that at the last moment that he couldn't go through the adoption as he planned. All I said to him was that I thought he made a good decision and then the property coordinator told me that I wouldn't be back there ever again or some such thing. This was not but a couple of months or so before I got kicked out. I helped at the butcher shop during deer hunting season and got kicked out toward the end of January. I haven't seen my friend since that day I gave him my support. What I'm certain of is that they considered me to be the bad guy for giving my friend words of support for his prayerful and hard decision.

In the end I considered Barnard and his toadies to be the equivalent of the central American tribes that did human sacrifice too. Wrong reason and wrong god for those child sacrifices for sure.

After a group of acceptable children went on a camping trip with Barnard the same thug that moved my wife out was proud to report that it was to God's glory that everyone seemed so healthy and strong. As I listened to this thug I could see why Barnard wanted to get rid of the retarded child. I felt like I was listening to a Nazis promoting their master race back in the day. And the fact that Barnard couldn't even manage to talk about my friend's baby at that time seemed to confirm my fears.

After they kicked me out I found out that my friends butcher business had been shut down. All the folks knew at the retail centers that carried some of my friend's product is that they were told the shop was shut down because of mad-cow disease. WHAT A CROCK! IMO Barnard is more than willing to manipulate my friend into a position where he'd lose everything as he did to me. It is how he rolls as the Apostle/ Word in the Flesh.

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Yeah...sigh It must have been in the fine print that when you applied to go into the corpes or wow that you were entering an unbreakable commitment to God, an irrevocable vow :(

SO glad that you stood up to your leaders Jeff...I didn`t...after being shown that record..... I just sucked it up and did what was necessary in order to remain in the center of God`s will/protection.

Kill your baby or God can`t protect you any more...I have said it before, I don`t think twi was much better than the mayans (or was it incans) that sacrificed their children to appease their Gods.

Rascal.

God forgives us. He really does. When we see what really happened and we mourn our decisions. . . that is repentance. Real sorrow. We ask and are forgiven.

As bad as it was. . . for so many of us. . . God can heal our hearts and give us some peace.

As for those who used God's name to coerce these things. . . and it surely was manipulation. . . if they don't repent and change. . . have sorrow and mourn what they did. . . justified by using a wrong interpretation of His scripture to cause evil. . . God will repay them. .. . God is not deaf, dumb, and blind as some would have us believe.

Why. . . just look at Ananias and Sapphira! Their judgement was swift. Sometimes it is. . . . sometimes not.

This was at a time when the early church was being established. They did not truly believe the gospel preached. What do the next few verses say. . .

Great FEAR came over the church. . . but none of the rest dared associate with them. . . . but the people held them in high esteem. . . and all the more believers were added to the number. . . .

Kept out the ones who didn't really believe. Kinda like Jesus saying you better count the cost before hand.

Ananias and Sapphira were trying to promote their own righteousness, it was an outward appearance. . . not a true belief. . . They were gonna be the heros and the great righteous ones. . . look how great we are we have given our all. .. laid everything out. . .sound familar??

There ARE true and false believers. ..That is why. . . by their fruits you will know them. . . are they connected to the vine?. . . what grows in their lives?.

Seems to me, many of these leaders never really understood or believed God or counted the cost for their actions. If they did, they never would have done or said such evil things. Or if they were truly God's people, He would have corrected them. . . . one way or another. We would now see it.

They decide to remain in sin. . . we don't have to . . . a good example of loving darkness rather than light.

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I understand that Geisha. I know God`s goodness and patience abound....that he has shown me that he can still love and continue to lead and teach.

It is something that we have to deal with personally though, one of those things that you just can`t fix or make all better or change. When it dawns on you that you no longer believe twi`s first breath teaching, when you realize that you were deceived into believing that God required this of you...your world comes crashing down. When decades later you feel a child moving and kicking inside....you know...

I have spoken to others here at gs who were told the same thing, who were taught ... most feel like they have done something that has had life long impacting consequences.

Some were damaged , and never able to have children after, they are left wondering if that was God`s punishment. Some have overwhelming regret, some are outraged at the betrayal, that we were required to do this for God....We wonder what having that son or daughter in our life now would mean :(

It was a horrible thing, and regardless of God`s mercy, grace and goodness, his compassion and understanding...it is we whom submitted and allowed our unborn children to be ripped from our bodies, all in the name of service to God .... we who have to live with the consequences of our choices.

Edited by rascal
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The thing is...this teaching was well documented and thought out. Scripturally supported. So was submitting to abuse, following stupid orders by leaders, all of this stuff that they forced us to endure was backed up with scripture.

It is why I cannot stand scripture and bible today... you can make a bible verse support any damned thing you please. It is a good thing that God is caring enough to work within the parameters of what we can tolerate.

I feel like the that love of bible is another thing stolen from me.

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The thing is...this teaching was well documented and thought out. Scripturally supported. So was submitting to abuse, following stupid orders by leaders, all of this stuff that they forced us to endure was backed up with scripture.

It is why I cannot stand scripture and bible today... you can make a bible verse support any damned thing you please. It is a good thing that God is caring enough to work within the parameters of what we can tolerate.

I feel like the that love of bible is another thing stolen from me.

God's mercies are awesome Rascal.

I think you are wonderful!

You've got your family now, and I thank God for it.

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Rascal,

You are right in all you said. I know. I also know that they stole so much from us.

I hope one day you can seperate TWI. . . from the scriptures and just enjoy reading it for the sheer pleasure of it. But, I also hear you loud and clear. . . people CAN make it say what ever they want. . . that is why the Holy Spirit is so important.

He is gentle and unobtrusive. . . and kind. Patient too and can teach you in your life. You are right. . . God is able to do it within what you can tolerate. He knows you inside and out.

Even as God forgives us. . . we have to somehow begin to forgive ourselves.

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Does anyone else remember the big scroll we all were encouraged to sign at the coronation of LCM? I think it was that we would support him in all ways or something. And I kind of very hazily remember the Ananias and Saphira thing being used there, too.

But, he did not keep his commitments, which were obfuscated to begin with. So I don't feel like I broke a commitment to God when I turned my back on that devil and walked away from TWI.

Rascal, I wish I could find words to speak what my heart feels for you. I am so sorry this happened to you and I pray someday you will enjoy the Bible again. I'm just starting to, but for myself with no one telling me what they think it should mean.

And Jeff, whoever this guy is that wanted someone to give their own baby up for adoption, he is so far outside the will of God that he may fall off the face of the earth. I'm surprised the bastard didn't want it smothered in its sleep. What is wrong with these people?

Of course we were told to "get rid of" our son, too, a rebellious, confused, adolescent, either by murder or abandonment, depending on who was screaming at us.

These people have NO IDEA who they're dealing with - a clue - He's the Creator of the Universe and He really does know more than they do!

WG

Edited by Watered Garden
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Thanks folks, what monsters did to us in the name of God, with scriptures to back them up was despicable. One poster described it as *soul rape* I have never forgotten it.

They took so much from us.

WG, I was hoping that you might post your experience with your son on the *crimes witnessed* thread. What that leader did to you and tried to insist that you do to your poor son was criminal.

Thank GOD you were strong...thank God you didn`t listen like so many of us would have done....I truly believed that God required these things of us.

How freaking SICK is that??

Now I know, he must have been crying along beside us each time we brokenly complied to treatment or demands made in his name :(

Edited by rascal
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Does anyone else remember the big scroll we all were encouraged to sign at the coronation of LCM? I think it was that we would support him in all ways or something. And I kind of very hazily remember the Ananias and Saphira thing being used there, too.

Dear Watered Garden,

I don't remember any of that because I was not close to HQ whenever that stuff was going down. But hearing it from you does not surprise me. I can see now how this record can relatively easily be twisted into something that always encourages us to be more committed, or to give more...et. etc.

But for me, when my wife and the rest of the group believed Barnard's application of these verses I found it to be not so. This record encourages us to take responsibility for our own things. Not to give the responsibility up to others. Peter was confronting Ananias on lying to God. When I told this to my wife I told her that I would give or not to the group, but I wouldn't lie. I believe Ananias would have been just fine if he would have said something like, "I sold the land, and I'm giving this part of the proceeds."

But, he did not keep his commitments, which were obfuscated to begin with. So I don't feel like I broke a commitment to God when I turned my back on that devil and walked away from TWI.

I don't believe that you did either. But even though I don't know you I am willing to bet that they accused you of turning your back on God.

Rascal, I wish I could find words to speak what my heart feels for you. I am so sorry this happened to you and I pray someday you will enjoy the Bible again. I'm just starting to, but for myself with no one telling me what they think it should mean.

And Jeff, whoever this guy is that wanted someone to give their own baby up for adoption, he is so far outside the will of God that he may fall off the face of the earth. I'm surprised the bastard didn't want it smothered in its sleep. What is wrong with these people?

Of course we were told to "get rid of" our son, too, a rebellious, confused, adolescent, either by murder or abandonment, depending on who was screaming at us.

These people have NO IDEA who they're dealing with - a clue - He's the Creator of the Universe and He really does know more than they do!

WG

No they did't know who they were dealing with, did they? If they understood the things that he's promised to avenge they would not have done this evil, would they have?

As far as my former splinter group goes, I warned them of God's garbage fire. But since they did not turn and my wife believed them, they hurt me a lot.

It's a pretty good reason for me to not quit believing in the Lord's return. For the most part, the hope of His return is all that I've got.

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Dear Rascal,

It may very well be that He cried then.

But I take some comfort in believeing what He said about what HE WILL DO TO THE ABUSERS when he comes back.

As leadership it seems plain to me that Paul took responsibility for what he led people into.

Now we see TWI doing everything in their power to hide, and lie about what they led people into.

IMO it doesn't take an Einstein to see (even if through a glass darkly) what the Lord will do to them.

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I too look forward to the return of the Lord. I strongly suspect that the worst "reproof"if you want to call it that is reserved for those who do evil in His Name. When I think of the arrogant little SOB who told us "Your son is not your son, because he is adopted, and God does not honor adoption" I want to scream. I mean, doesn't Ephesians tell us we are all adopted, made to be sons and daughters of God? But he was so sure of himself.

And I will tell you something: I was convinced in my mind that if we did not comply with him, I would die. I was already under a great deal of condemnation from being diagnosed with diabetes two years earlier, which to them was clear evidence that something was wrong with my believing. Remember these were days when LCM & those devoted to him were diligently weeding the weakness out of the rank and file, beginning with homosexuals, lesbians, or anyone they didn't like they could pin those or other things on. This continued on to include those in debt and those with chronic illnesses, and those whose children were not perfect in obedience. We were in debt, I was diabetic, and my son was in all honesty being a little jerk, not without reason.

Mr. Garden stood stronger than I did, and I decided anyway I'd rather die than do what that smirking, sarcastic little creep was telling me to. My son was compared to a mad dog. "He's not a dog, he's my son, and he needs help, he doesn't need shot or abandoned." was my response.

This was a human being they were talking about. V**k R**ko told us in the first few months we were there to take him up so far into the mountains no one could hear him scream and takes turns hitting him with a 2x4 until he had to submit or die.

Here what I've learned: Obedience to God is not the same as obedience to people. People can be wrong, either inadvertently or deliberately. Only God is true. When I finally came to therapy in 2000, four years after we left TWI, I came to the conclusion that God and my husband were the only two entities I could ever trust. I still pretty much feel that way.

Jeff, I cannot imagine if TWI had split up my marriage how I'd feel. You are stronger than you know. WG prays for you today!

WG

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When I faced the same devilish doctrine in my splinter group I told them that God gave the care of my son to me. And that everything after that was up to me and my wife.

And they were already mad at me for insisting on having a child when it was the current trend in my splinter group to not have children because the Lord was returning in 1997, no wait 2000, no I mean 2001, er 2003, no it was really going to happen in 2005.

For whatever it's worth I have felt more broken than strong for quite a while WG, but thank you anyway.

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Well, this is just yet another example of the decietfull usage of scripture to achieve their ends....there were the peter walking on the water teachings to show why we should obey first and ignore our 5 senses no matter how crazy what our leader asked us to do....look at the 5 senses, question a command, and we would sink just like peter....

The penalty for causing a woman to *lose her fruit* became First breath teaching...

Submit to your husband became ...you and your children will endure any idiocy, any abuse and keep your mouths shut because God works through him first...and even if his decisions put you at risk...you mustn`t step outside of God`s will and disobey...

Just to name a few off of the top of my head....It just absolutely insenses me to this day, that they had the gaul to do inflict such great evil in God`s name....that they insisted that we go against our consciousness, our inner voices, our good sense...that we were so sewn into a box by scripture, that it was never a question of denying them...it always boiled down to refusing God.

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And those who did these things, twisted scripture for their own advantage, harmed the innocent, ignored the teachings of Jesus for their own selfish ends, will receive judgment that will shock and terrify them.

I'm not sure I believe that some of these individuals are actually saved; their fruit is pretty rotten.

WG

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Garden, I agree with you....I just don`t think that they are....The bible says that your fruit shows what you are on the inside...Jesus said that was how we could identify one another....not by the label we wear or the works (ie studying) that we do....I think that is a notion that a very evil man planted in our brains....:(

What I think is really bad....is that some of us twi folks will be eagerly lined up one day, thinking that we have prophesied in his name, that we have cast demons out in his name...our faces bright with shining expectation...certain in our knowledge .....only to be told...*Depart, for I knew you not*

Our scriptural understanding isn`t what is going to matter, because as we all have witnessed ... it doesn`t seem to mean that people aren`t able to behave with great evil and malice. Our actions say it all...our *fruit* shows what is inside....In twi we were taught to explain and excuse why our fruit was not that of the spirit.

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Well, this is just yet another example of the decietfull usage of scripture to achieve their ends....there were the peter walking on the water teachings to show why we should obey first and ignore our 5 senses no matter how crazy what our leader asked us to do....look at the 5 senses, question a command, and we would sink just like peter....

The penalty for causing a woman to *lose her fruit* became First breath teaching...

Submit to your husband became ...you and your children will endure any idiocy, any abuse and keep your mouths shut because God works through him first...and even if his decisions put you at risk...you mustn`t step outside of God`s will and disobey...

Just to name a few off of the top of my head....It just absolutely insenses me to this day, that they had the gaul to do inflict such great evil in God`s name....that they insisted that we go against our consciousness, our inner voices, our good sense...that we were so sewn into a box by scripture, that it was never a question of denying them...it always boiled down to refusing God.

Yah--don't forget the spiritual 'chain of command'. Fellowship co-ord trumped husband. branch co-ord trumped fellowship co-ord, limb trumped branch, region trumped limb... many hoops for jumping! Insane way to live, with all those busybodies in your business.

Edited by Bramble
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Yeah, I hear you there Bramble,

I guess that even though Peter was no busybody in this record, the busybodies that you are referring too think that they are spiritual people. To bad, so sad, for them anyway.

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It never happened. Nonetheless there's something more to this fiction of "Ananias & Sapphirra" that we're not told.

What it was - I won't even begin to speculate. But people generally don't drop dead for seeking tax shelters.

Just as many of you have not turned into "Greasespots" by midnight.

I mean, if the "Holy Spirit" here wanted more money, why not pack his briefcase and run off to Wall Street?

The message seems clear here though - "fork over the dough" - in this case, to the figure of Peter.

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I respect honest scepticism a lot more than a false teacher who just lies to the suckers like TWI and my former splinter group did.

It sounds to me like you won't be presuming to teach anyone the Bible if they believe these things to be true like I do TheInvisibleDan.

But if I ever know of someone who thinks like you do but acts like they are a believer I will be happy to expose them as frauds.

But is it possible in spite of your honest skepticism that the intended lesson is more like I've shared it and less like you believe?

My view of this scripture comes from just trieing to figure out where I stood while being goaded into following a scum-sucking false teacher and false prophet.

Where does your skepticism come from TheInvisibleDan?

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I respect honest scepticism a lot more than a false teacher who just lies to the suckers like TWI and my former splinter group did.

It sounds to me like you won't be presuming to teach anyone the Bible if they believe these things to be true like I do TheInvisibleDan.

But if I ever know of someone who thinks like you do but acts like they are a believer I will be happy to expose them as frauds.

But is it possible in spite of your honest skepticism that the intended lesson is more like I've shared it and less like you believe?

My view of this scripture comes from just trieing to figure out where I stood while being goaded into following a scum-sucking false teacher and false prophet.

Where does your skepticism come from TheInvisibleDan?

Hi Jeff,

In my case perhaps from getting old. :biglaugh:

I have no disagreement with anything you wrote, and in fact, your experiences recalls some of my own when I left twi eons ago.

I've been of the personal opinion that biblatry was a major ingredient which compelled many of us to stick with the organization longer than we might have otherwise (and such a problem being hardly limited to one group or splinter, or religion for that matter).

Good to meet you.

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