Ananias and Saphira

[lindyhopper]

there is no such thing as good or bad. people make this distinction up and then try to make pet theories up when things don't add up. One could reevaluate why they consider things "good" or "bad", and redefine them, if it so troubles them.

My point wasn't really what is good or bad, but more like what you said here. People making up theories to things that don't make sense to them, or it doesn't line up with their sense of justice, or they don't see a blatant cause and effect to a situation or an experience.

you've brought up "rulers" now. hmm. . . "religious dogma" "political decree" "years of conflict . . ." You believe religion came from rulers first? Or religion came, then rulers learned to use it, as any opportunity?

That's a good question, I don't really know, but I would think that superstition arose out of what I have said above. I would suspect that as humans evolved and formed groups that individuals looked to someone with natural qualities of a leader(s) which could have been exceptional physical or mental abilities or perhaps a greater capacity for language. But later, I think in many cases religion and "political rulers" were one in the same. Political meaning tending to the affairs of the group/clan/tribe/etc. and that eventually meant those affairs as it pertained to other groups/clans/tribes/etc..

[Bolshevik]

maybe this goes along with what you're saying,

but I think a lot of the gods were once human. What I mean is people who once had exceptional abilities, like you mentioned, were made gods over time. (anthropomorphism? don't think that's the right word i dunno). Throw in magical explanations of natural things and you've got a religion. an idea. had vpw lived 4000 years ago he'd be made a god, maybe not.

but people have to be drawn to him, and why do they decide to do that? i dunno. the leaders have to draw on something already there i think

[JeffSjo]

As concerning the questions that concern this records accuracy, I haven't seen enough to discount the record of Ananias and Saphira as an accurate historical record. Even though sections of the scriptures have been modified over the centuries I feel that I need more to go on. But everyone is entitled to an opinion. Luther did not think that the books of Hebrews and James rated as scriptures but Tyndale did for instance. Just let me see the documentation of the changes to possibly agree with that perspective.

In spite of all the feedback I still think of Peter's perspective and it seems to me that he could not have handled it better. the Lord told Peter, "Get thee behind me Satan once and Peter managed to keep going on after denying the Lord during the events of the Lord's capture and trial. (so-called trial anyway)

Whenh Peter confronted Ananias he didn't do it any differently than the Lord did to him. And then he had to watch him die. I don't think he was a TWI style of bully. I think that he learned directly from the Lord how to be direct with these things.

Once a minister told me regarding a guy who was living with a couple of women and was trying to get them drunk to have his way with them that he wanted to outsmart satan. I got angry and told him he should kick this gut out NOW. Direct is better than cowardly. But we don't have to be a bully to be direct, do we.

I just cannot find it in me to consider Peter a bully. And I think it is unwise to try to portray him as anything other than direct.

I'm out of time on the compuiter now.....sigh.....I'll try to get back later. BYE.

[GarthP2000]

Whenh Peter confronted Ananias he didn't do it any differently than the Lord did to him. And then he had to watch him die. I don't think he was a TWI style of bully.

Well, if it was indeed the Lord who killed Ananias and Sapphira, you are right. Peter wasn't the bully here.

God was. <_<

And all the arguments in defense of this incident becomes moot.

[leafytwiglet]

I always found that story Sad... and it felt out of tune with the other stuff around it... I have no Idea why except that when you read all the other wonderful stuff going on it just seems out of place and out of character... No I never really studied it. IT just seemed odd to me.

And when people use it to teach that you need to give all you own by using this story as a threat I find that contemptible.

[Bolshevik]

Isn't there a story in acts where Paul is teaching and a dude falls asleep, falls out the window and dies? (Paul rose him from the dead or something I think).

There, if you nod in approval at a STS you could die. So pay attention.

[JeffSjo]

Well, if it was indeed the Lord who killed Ananias and Sapphira, you are right. Peter wasn't the bully here.

God was. <_<

And all the arguments in defense of this incident becomes moot.

Your post has me going HHHMMM...

And even though I have only a few minutes let me throw this out for discussion. I have no time this weekend unless something changes and the library is closing in ten minutes.

I've been considering Peter's perspective on this topic, after all in this record it is him that confronts both Ananias and Saphira. And as Geisha reminded me earlier he told Ananias that satan had entered his heart.

Last night I was wondering how deeply satan had entered the lives of this married couple. How can we know for sure?

It is not one of the easier things to consider about God vs. satan in the scriptures. Job's whole life was given to satan but God did not allow satan to kill Job.

And in one O.T. record the prophet Micah (I think) told the king of Israel that the Lord had sent lying spirits to deceive him.

And King Saul got a spirit of jealousy from the Lord that moved him to try to kill David repeatedly.

SO, what if satan's response to his plans (whatever they were exactly) to steal, kill, or destroy through Ananias ans Saphira being called out by Peter was to simply eliminate the couple? I mean, what about satan taking them out after his plans were brought to nothing by the Apostle Peter?

I hope that this really is clear for discussion. I have almost no more time.

Untimely deaths are regrettable in any circumstances, but they happen. In this case we have one record that includes an Apostle and satan's tools, Ananias and Saphira.

(edited for spelling)

Edited April 17, 2009 by JeffSjo

[JeffSjo]

So in my last post I shared that I was wondering how "deeply" satan had entered the hearts of Ananias and Saphira. And after I remembered what Geisha had reminded me of earlier in this thread I had my answer to this question.

Peter said to Ananias,"how is it that Satan has so FILLED your heart.....?" When I remembered this I then recalled a picture of two young wrestlers at my boy's wrestling banquet.

During the slide show I saw a picture of one boy taking down the other. The boy that was doing the taking down had shot into the other wrestler to get his shoulder right at the other boy's hip and his arms were wrapped around the other one's legs too.

It was a great picture. The boy that was about to be taken down had his center in the other boy's complete control and his position was so precarious in the other boy's grasp that the take down was a forgone conclusion.

When I saw this picture I looked at another boy's dad and said in the correct wrestling lingo, "Boy, he's in deep", meaning that the boy that was about to take the other one down had shot into the other boy's center so deeply that his take down was inevitable.

And while I was wondering how deeply Satan had entered the heart's of Ananias and Saphira I remembered that Peter had said that Ananias' heart had been FILLED BY SATAN.

I think that it fits to think that Satan had shot into them deeply and their take down was easy once Satan had no more use for them, after Peter caught and confronted the scheme.

What can I say, for me this is now the best understanding that I have of this record and I'm not holding anything back.....

But let me say that TWI leadership as a whole had the beams of strife, ambition, and/or lust in their eyes to such a huge extent that it seems clear to me that they could only succeed in ruining the consideration of these weightier matters of the scriptures for many of us ands they definitely seemed to me to only having succeeded in poking many of our eyes out while pretending to competently remove our splinters.