I don't even think we knew who God was! Or we had the wrong God all along.
They taught you must believe!! Believing equals receiving.. Yeah, what God does that?! Oh, the YOU GOD!
And the off shoots haven't figured it out either..
CFF still teaches the believing junk..
STFI/CES goes a step further.. Their God is just like you, only a little smarter. He makes mistakes since he's not all knowing, but since he knows more than us, he makes better decisions, just not always the right one! Who could trust that God?!
Yeah.. I know I got suckered into ignoring the "other" side of God that doesn't bark when I believed He should be barking!
In my opinion, idolatry was only one of the many problems that plagued TWI. I think it was theologian Alister McGrath addressing this issue who said something about Jesus Christ being the only God-sanctioned image for Christians when it comes to gaining a better understanding of God the Father – Jesus did say "he who has seen Me has seen the Father." I guess old vp showed his flagrant disregard for the Son by saying things like "the Word takes the place of the absent Christ" – and hardly focusing on His words & works in the gospels. TWI was not Christ-centered at all! No wonder idolatry was in full bloom.
Here's some stuff I've read - you might find interesting on this subject.
On my continued quest to discover what was wrong with The Way spiritually, I would like to propose Idolatry.
The God of The Way was one they wanted to worship. He was made in the image of what they thought God should be like.
He was pretty one-sided. He was like a Sugar Daddy. God was like a good buddy. There usually were not any consequences for wrong actions. No condemnation...remember?
What about the God of the Bible that says...What you sow, you reap? and God cannot be mocked.
I don't think The Way had a healthy respect for the awesomeness of God, the Holiness of God and one to worship with reverence.
Again, personalizing this, I discovered an attitude in myself that needed to change. The God of the Bible was not someone I could manipulate for my own personal gain, but rather someone I am learning to accept Him on His own terms.
And that lack of healthy respect or fear of the Lord might just have lead us to some pretty odd interpretations of scripture.
Here is the irony. We worshiped the "Word". . . we allowed supposed "MOG" into positions of authority over our lives. Many were complete strangers to us. We acted as if they spoke ex cathedra. . . . .
YET, let anyone say they actually worshiped Jesus Christ and the world was coming to an end. . . . we screamed idolatry so quickly. . . let them drop the Christ and worship Jesus. . . HA! They were possessed for sure. :)
I think it was theologian Alister McGrath addressing this issue who said something about Jesus Christ being the only God-sanctioned image for Christians when it comes to gaining a better understanding of God the Father – Jesus did say "he who has seen Me has seen the Father." I guess old vp showed his flagrant disregard for the Son by saying things like "the Word takes the place of the absent Christ" – and hardly focusing on His words & works in the gospels. TWI was not Christ-centered at all! No wonder idolatry was in full bloom.
Not only that, we weren't allowed to look at the way Jesus handled situations. We were discouraged from reading about him, his way of dealing with people. The gospels were "not written to us" and therefore didn't need to be studied. All we got was in relation to him as the fulfilment of what was required for the Passover.
LCM announced that this was now the age of confrontation. But if we had looked at the way Jesus handled situations, we would have seen that he confronted religious hypocrites only. With ordinary people, he showed kindness, compassion, forgiveness. Nor did he make them feel bad about imagined wrongs, real wrongs, not being perfect. He didn't "confront" them in a face-melting way about what they'd done wrong (would the general populace then have worn it? If he had, would they have seen him as the Son of God - or just some nagging meanhearted interfering busybody?)
They told us the God of the OT was only half the picture and He was really a God of love. Then they treated us like their view of the God of the OT - always calling it loving to "confront." It was threats, blackmail, and the constant wearing down of God- and self-confidence.
Having said that - there were some great people who, if they did need to confront something, really did care to ensure that there were no hard feelings afterwards and made the person feel loved up.
On my continued quest to discover what was wrong with The Way spiritually, I would like to propose Idolatry.
The God of The Way was one they wanted to worship. He was made in the image of what they thought God should be like.
He was pretty one-sided. He was like a Sugar Daddy. God was like a good buddy. There usually were not any consequences for wrong actions. No condemnation...remember?
What about the God of the Bible that says...What you sow, you reap? and God cannot be mocked.
I don't think The Way had a healthy respect for the awesomeness of God, the Holiness of God and one to worship with reverence.
Again, personalizing this, I discovered an attitude in myself that needed to change. The God of the Bible was not someone I could manipulate for my own personal gain, but rather someone I am learning to accept Him on His own terms.
An extra penny to add to my previous 2 cents. the relationship of worship & service.
There's always the practical consequence of doctrine to take into account. I think sometimes the TWI mindset tended to compartmentalize ideas – which not only blinds one to contradictory thoughts but also how some things relate to each other. I'm thinking about a particular PFAL teaching on what is true worship – saying the only true worship was to SIT. However, there's a couple of Bible passages that give me the idea that there's a twofold aspect when it comes to reverence, devotion; one is intellectual and the other is practical. When I say "intellectual" – I don't think it's something stuffy, heady, philosophical – like that – maybe it's much more, involving our emotions, passions. I think worship is basically love.
In Matthew 4 when Jesus was tempted to worship the devil in exchange for the kingdoms of this world – He responded by saying we are to worship AND serve the Lord our God only [Matthew 4:10]. And in Romans 1, speaking of the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness – how they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped AND served created things rather than the Creator [Romans 1:25].
Again thinking about worship as love we find service linked to it in Matthew 6:24. Jesus talked about the impossibility of serving two masters – we wind up hating one and loving the other, and He ends that thought by saying "You cannot serve both God and wealth" [NASB]. That can apply to anything tempting - the big four – fame, fortune, power and pleasure. As Romans 6:16 indicates – whatever you choose to obey becomes your master.
What I think relates to this discussion is a biblical definition of idolatry. I'm sure others can chime in with references – but the most comprehensive one I can think of right off the bat is in Exodus 20 – I see a number of prohibitions/directives in the first half of the Ten Commandments intended to guard the monogamous relationship a believer has with the Lord God. And getting back to the worship/service correlation – it's intriguing to think about the practical side of the commandments – especially when put in the context of how I relate to others [don't murder, don't commit adultery, don't lie, don't steal, etc.].
That gets me thinking about when Jesus was asked what the most important commandment was in Matthew 22:36-40. Jesus' answer was not one – but two commandments – He summarized them as being to love God and neighbor – and saying that all the other commandments -demands - directives of the Law & Prophets are anchored, supported, based upon these two. Exodus 20 has love & service intertwined – but stated mostly in a negative sense ["Do not do so & so"]. Matthew 22 presents love & service as a positive duet.
I also agree with your point about how TWI's god was one of their own creation and through teachings like "the law of believing" & pushing SIT as perfect prayer & true worship there was a subliminal message getting fed to folks that God was at our beck & call – as long as we did the right things God would comply with our every wish or command.
I believe idolatry tends to be self-serving. And I think about the dark horrible experiences of abuse & sexual molestations mentioned on Grease Spot – that $ hi + is the extreme opposite of the two great commandments! Yeah, and vp re-defined what it means to love your neighbor anyway – saying "anything done in the love of God is okay."
Come to think of it, vp re-defined idolatry too. Did you ever hear him rant from the podium about Jesus Christ not being God and we should not worship Him? He'd go on & on making analogies about moving the decimal point one place over, changes the value of the numbers – and that to think Jesus is God is idolatry.
Ok – so I'm a Trinitarian and have nothing against my Unitarian brothers – but please allow me the freedom to follow the dictates of my conscience - of my understanding of John 1:1, Colossians 1: 15-20, Hebrews1: 5 & ff, and - uhm - well, you know the drill; but when it comes right down to it - the worship AND service aspect of it – the practical consequence of one's theology – I don't think we [Trinitarians & Unitarians] are that different practically speaking. And really who cares?!?! As long as neither side uses the issue as a polarizing tool to separate "the true believers" and damn the rest to hell – oh, shades of the New Knoxville Inquisition!
I really think the vicster started with a vewy vewy little god, and "rightly divided (dissected)" him..
it wasn't even half a god..
any god that needs ME to tell him what to do.. isn't exactly God, in my estimation..
one teaching I NEVER heard in da way.. sometimes "no" is the answer to prayer. Even if it looks bilblical and lines up with all the supposed keys and all..
reminds me of an old bugs bunny cartoon.. Bugs and Christopher columbus. Everybody else jumped ship.. and it came down to only one bean left between them in the galley..
Bugs with carving knife..and the poor little bean..
"use your imagination Chris.. will it be light meat, or dark?"
Not only that, we weren't allowed to look at the way Jesus handled situations. We were discouraged from reading about him, his way of dealing with people. The gospels were "not written to us" and therefore didn't need to be studied. All we got was in relation to him as the fulfilment of what was required for the Passover.
LCM announced that this was now the age of confrontation. But if we had looked at the way Jesus handled situations, we would have seen that he confronted religious hypocrites only. With ordinary people, he showed kindness, compassion, forgiveness. Nor did he make them feel bad about imagined wrongs, real wrongs, not being perfect. He didn't "confront" them in a face-melting way about what they'd done wrong (would the general populace then have worn it? If he had, would they have seen him as the Son of God - or just some nagging meanhearted interfering busybody?)
They told us the God of the OT was only half the picture and He was really a God of love. Then they treated us like their view of the God of the OT - always calling it loving to "confront." It was threats, blackmail, and the constant wearing down of God- and self-confidence.
Having said that - there were some great people who, if they did need to confront something, really did care to ensure that there were no hard feelings afterwards and made the person feel loved up.
Your words really struck me because I saw the face meltings so many time while on Staff at HQ. It's amazing we humiliated ourselves so much to put up with that crap and think it was godly and even OK!
In reality, we were led by a mentally unstable jacka$$ (LCM) who didn't even know his own arse from a hole in the ground. We thought God was speaking to and leading him, yet he was winging it and calling it spiritual. And don't get me started on the alcoholic sexual abuser before the mentally unstable jacka$$.
GAK!!! I shudder thinking about following men like that.
I think perhaps the problem is in the concept of idolatry.
That concept is that you can not put one thing above this other thing, thus sayeth the one true thing. So then you are convinced you've got the one true thing. Then one day you come upon a "revelation." The thing you thought was the one true thing was actually just some other thing. Damn it! You've been committing idolatry all that time. Well you'd better get back on track and put THE real one true thing back in position numero uno. This might take some adjusting of your view of things but all you know is you'd better not be committing idolatry. Thank goodness you know that you know that you know, or at least NOW you do or you'd better hope so. If not you're an idolater.
Think I'm up to 4 cents now.. . don't mean to monopolize the discussion but the topic was on my mind over the long weekend and wound up checking out the definition of idolatry in a few biblical dictionaries.. . Anywho – thought a couple of the references were post-worthy – especially since they go along an idea expressed in Imagine's opening post and TrustandObey's post.
From Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, editor Walter Elwell, pages 542 & 543 under Idolatry:
".. .(1)The first commandment prohibited.. . worshipping any other god than the Lord (Exod. 20:3), thereby eliminating the false forms of idolatrous religion practiced in neighboring nations. (2) The second commandment forbade the worship of the God of Israel in the form of an image or idol (Exod. 20:4-6).
Of the two prohibitions, the latter was crucial to the integrity of Israel's theology. To worship God in the form of an idol would be to reduce God the creator to the substance of creation (that which was represented in the idol), thereby undermining fundamentally the conception of the transcendent creator God. The idol gave to devotees a sense of the physical proximity of a deity and perhaps also the conviction that the deity's power could be harnessed by human beings. The God of Israel was immanent, but the immanence could not be expressed in physical or tangible form; it remained the essence of faith and of experience.. .
.. . In the NT times idolatry was practiced in various forms throughout the Roman empire and was steadfastly resisted by the early Christian church. It was understood as a sign of human folly (Rom. 1:22-23), representing a perversion of true religion. More frequently, however, the NT writers used the concept of idolatry in a metaphorical sense, particularly with respect to covetousness (Eph. 5:5, Col. 3:5); covetousness is an "idol" by virtue of becoming the immediate focus of a person's desires and "worship", displacing the worship of God.
In the later history of Christianity, idolatry in the strict sense has continued to be opposed in the terms of the ancient biblical prohibitions. But the continuing danger has more commonly returned in the metaphorical sense delineated in the NT; it is the "worship" (i.e., the total dedication of a person) of that which is seen and tangible, the goals of covetousness, rather than the unseen spiritual being of God."
End of excerpts
~~
Considering the fact that one of the big sales pitches for PFAL was the benefit listed on the back of the Green Card "increases prosperity", and also recalling an old flyer for PFAL – I still have on file from my initial involvement in NY which boldly stated "you can have whatever you want" - - I would say a big chunk of TWI doctrine was both a product of idolatry as well as a producer of more idolatry – it's the gift that keeps on giving. A nifty little infectious combo! Makes me think of the old SNL joke commercial with Chevy Chase promoting a fantastic new product to an amazed Gilda Radner & Dan Aykroyd looking on "New Shimmer is a floor wax AND a dessert topping!"
Reflecting on my former beliefs, it seems to boil down to God being reduced to a genie-in-a-bottle, rub the PFAL book three times and make a wish – God AND this magical "law of believing" that supposedly He created were really nothing more than a means to an end. "After all, isn't it God's will that I should prosper? Didn't Jesus come to give me the more than abundant life?" Man oh man! I was always so concerned with trying to tap God's resources [aka "Father Money Bags"]! Honestly, I faithfully gave more than 10 % of my income to those lying, thieving weasels, wouldn't take on a better paying job that compensated techs for being on-call cuz that would interfere with the six evenings a week that I did something for them bozos – is it any wonder the wife & I had financial struggles our entire time in Wayworld - - that little green (card) idol always looked so tantalizing. Geez – it's almost like a drug addict turning dealer to ensure a steady supply. That's right folks, this post is a signed confession of a former idolater!
~~
My other reference speaks about greed in the context of idolatry – but also adds a few other things to consider.
From New Dictionary of Biblical Theology, editors T. Desmond Alexander, Brian S. Rosner, D.A. Carson, Graeme Goldsworthy, pages 569-575 under Idolatry:
".. . It is not just that idolatry was one vice among many of which the heathen were guilty; rather, idolatry is a defining feature of the heathen, whose way of life is characterized inevitably by this sin. I Thessalonians 4: 3-5, read in conjunction with 1:9, is an early Pauline witness to this conviction. The characterization of the heathen by the three sins of sexual immorality, idolatry and greed comes through consistently in the Pauline vice catalogues. Furthermore, these three sins are the only vices in the Pauline letters that are considered to be such a threat that they must be 'shunned' or 'fled' (I Cor. 6:18; 10:14 and I Tim. 6:10-11 respectively). In Romans 2:22 Paul takes it for granted that Jews abhor and detest idols. Opposition to idolatry was in effect a drawing of group boundaries for the people of God, set within the wider framework of their identity and self-definition. In making it clear what they stood for, they emphasized what they stood against.. .
.. . what then qualifies as idolatry? Although a number of possibilities, including pride, come to mind, the NT unambiguously judges only one thing to be idolatry, outside of the literal worship of idols, namely greed. The charge that greed is idolatry appears in four places. It is stated in Colossians 3:5.. . Ephesians 5:5.. . and implied in the mammon saying in Matthew 6:24 and Luke 16:13.. .
.. . The fundamental question of theology, 'What do we mean by "God"?', can be answered from a variety of angles by exploring God's various relations to the world and to ourselves. Ironically, the study of idolatry also gives us some insight into the nature of the true God. What constitutes a god? Martin Luther's answer, as he reflected on the first commandment in his larger catechism, was 'whatever your heart clings to and relies upon, that is your God; trust and faith of the heart alone make both God and idol.' We wish to confirm his view, but also to emphasize love and service: a god is that which one loves, trusts and serves above all else. This definition suggests both the possibility and the urgency of making clear the relevance of idolatry to the modern world.. ."
End of excerpts
~~
I think it was in that book I mentioned earlier, Idols for Destruction – that I came upon a passage that held a simple yet powerful warning – beware of setting up idols in the heart – though invisible they are still real enough to become a major stumbling block:
Ezekiel 14:7, 8 NIV
7 When any Israelite or any alien living in Israel separates himself from me and sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet to inquire of me, I the LORD will answer him myself. 8 I will set my face against that man and make him an example and a byword. I will cut him off from my people. Then you will know that I am the LORD.
Thinking about this discussion and these references – stirs up a lot of old memories from a murky mindset of long ago. How I held PFAL and vp in such a high regard – perhaps not even realizing I viewed them as just about on par with the Bible & God Himself! I mean – if vp said it – that settles it! I mean it's really weird to reflect on some of this stuff. Yuk - a system of thought that was fattening me up for the express purpose of sucking my life away - shades of the Copper Top life in "The Matrix". Life support system for some ravenous beast - weird bunch of idols wrapped up in a Christian costume. Yeech, me feeling like an adult sheep – looking over some old family photos – and a little unsettled by some of the details; obvious to me now but never noticed at the time the pictures were taken, "Holy $hi t, I was raised by wolves!"
What's interesting to me.. some of us in this world fight vehemently regarding which half a god we think we've got..
maybe da way (and some others) treat theology like a cookbook.. bake a god, in twelve (more or less, depending on the particular flavor) easy steps..
Geometry and algebra is like that. Someone makes a system of axioms or conditions. Then if a set with certain operations qualifies, it is considered to be one of the algebras..
in way terms, I think they have the following axioms:
1. God is all powerful
2. God is infinitely intelligent
3. He can be understood (or he is rational)
4. He is perfect in every way
5. He is completely righteous and fair
6. He exists, to serve me. If at any time I press the right buttons and switches, I can have anything I want.
I don't think one can find a god that fulfils all of these conditions.. at the same time.
Kind of like getting a fair election. Kenneth Arrow proved that any election cannot satisfy all conditions of fairness, at the same time.
Geometry and algebra is like that. Someone makes a system of axioms or conditions. Then if a set with certain operations qualifies, it is considered to be one of the algebras..
in way terms, I think they have the following axioms:
1. God is all powerful
2. God is infinitely intelligent
3. He can be understood (or he is rational)
4. He is perfect in every way
5. He is completely righteous and fair
6. He exists, to serve me. If at any time I press the right buttons and switches, I can have anything I want.
I can't help it Ham - I have to pull a George Carlin on you. You might remember when he reduced the ten commandments to something like two commandments. Now I am not as talented as him so I'll reduce your six to three.
1. Given as an axiom
2. Logically follows from 1
3. Logically follows from 2 which follows from 1
Thus 1-3 can be collapsed into 1.
4. Given as an axiom
5. Follows from 4.
Thus 4-5 can be reduced to 4.
6. uhhhhhh - smirk - uhhhhh - that one can stand as wishful thinking I suspect
One of the cats in the house here.. I think it thinks I'm a god, or god, or something..
I cook an egg for it every morning..
well, actually two. The cat gets most of the yolk (with most of the cholesterol) and I leave just enough yolk for me that the egg isn't entirely tasteless, for me..
In a way, it's good for both parties here..
when this cat misbehaves.. the lady of the house says.. "you'd better listen.. nobody else is going to cook egg for you every day.."
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Bolshevik
ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil
what's funny is they always focused on "ye shall not surely die"
people want to be their own god, vpw said it was okay.
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TrustAndObey
Half a God ??!
I don't even think we knew who God was! Or we had the wrong God all along.
They taught you must believe!! Believing equals receiving.. Yeah, what God does that?! Oh, the YOU GOD!
And the off shoots haven't figured it out either..
CFF still teaches the believing junk..
STFI/CES goes a step further.. Their God is just like you, only a little smarter. He makes mistakes since he's not all knowing, but since he knows more than us, he makes better decisions, just not always the right one! Who could trust that God?!
Yeah.. I know I got suckered into ignoring the "other" side of God that doesn't bark when I believed He should be barking!
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cheranne
It has taught me never to do anything half azz again.
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Ham
Half a god.. hmm.
maybe..
in the old days, when travelling preachers roamed the earth, for sustenance..
now in the house there were two mogs, with a god. One, in a Drambuie stupor, overlayed their god.
Seeing any god is better than a dead one, he switched his for the other. A living dog is better than a dead lion, fer crying out loud..
the next morning, the mog considered his dead god. It was not the likeness of the one which he thought he remembered.
"aha" said he.. and clamored at the ruler of the land's court.. "he overlayed his god, and stole mine."
Continully they litigated, from court to court..
finally the supreme judge ordered the god divided, and the resources equally distributed to each party..
at which, the vicster cried out, "fine. As long as I get the good half.."
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T-Bone
In my opinion, idolatry was only one of the many problems that plagued TWI. I think it was theologian Alister McGrath addressing this issue who said something about Jesus Christ being the only God-sanctioned image for Christians when it comes to gaining a better understanding of God the Father – Jesus did say "he who has seen Me has seen the Father." I guess old vp showed his flagrant disregard for the Son by saying things like "the Word takes the place of the absent Christ" – and hardly focusing on His words & works in the gospels. TWI was not Christ-centered at all! No wonder idolatry was in full bloom.
Here's some stuff I've read - you might find interesting on this subject.
Idols for Destruction by Herbert Schlossberg
http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/0891077383
and
God Lite: The idolatry of Reduction by Chip Ingram
http://mrc.christian...th/1403373.aspx
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geisha779
And that lack of healthy respect or fear of the Lord might just have lead us to some pretty odd interpretations of scripture.
Here is the irony. We worshiped the "Word". . . we allowed supposed "MOG" into positions of authority over our lives. Many were complete strangers to us. We acted as if they spoke ex cathedra. . . . .
YET, let anyone say they actually worshiped Jesus Christ and the world was coming to an end. . . . we screamed idolatry so quickly. . . let them drop the Christ and worship Jesus. . . HA! They were possessed for sure. :)
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Twinky
Not only that, we weren't allowed to look at the way Jesus handled situations. We were discouraged from reading about him, his way of dealing with people. The gospels were "not written to us" and therefore didn't need to be studied. All we got was in relation to him as the fulfilment of what was required for the Passover.
LCM announced that this was now the age of confrontation. But if we had looked at the way Jesus handled situations, we would have seen that he confronted religious hypocrites only. With ordinary people, he showed kindness, compassion, forgiveness. Nor did he make them feel bad about imagined wrongs, real wrongs, not being perfect. He didn't "confront" them in a face-melting way about what they'd done wrong (would the general populace then have worn it? If he had, would they have seen him as the Son of God - or just some nagging meanhearted interfering busybody?)
They told us the God of the OT was only half the picture and He was really a God of love. Then they treated us like their view of the God of the OT - always calling it loving to "confront." It was threats, blackmail, and the constant wearing down of God- and self-confidence.
Having said that - there were some great people who, if they did need to confront something, really did care to ensure that there were no hard feelings afterwards and made the person feel loved up.
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T-Bone
An extra penny to add to my previous 2 cents. the relationship of worship & service.
There's always the practical consequence of doctrine to take into account. I think sometimes the TWI mindset tended to compartmentalize ideas – which not only blinds one to contradictory thoughts but also how some things relate to each other. I'm thinking about a particular PFAL teaching on what is true worship – saying the only true worship was to SIT. However, there's a couple of Bible passages that give me the idea that there's a twofold aspect when it comes to reverence, devotion; one is intellectual and the other is practical. When I say "intellectual" – I don't think it's something stuffy, heady, philosophical – like that – maybe it's much more, involving our emotions, passions. I think worship is basically love.
In Matthew 4 when Jesus was tempted to worship the devil in exchange for the kingdoms of this world – He responded by saying we are to worship AND serve the Lord our God only [Matthew 4:10]. And in Romans 1, speaking of the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness – how they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped AND served created things rather than the Creator [Romans 1:25].
Again thinking about worship as love we find service linked to it in Matthew 6:24. Jesus talked about the impossibility of serving two masters – we wind up hating one and loving the other, and He ends that thought by saying "You cannot serve both God and wealth" [NASB]. That can apply to anything tempting - the big four – fame, fortune, power and pleasure. As Romans 6:16 indicates – whatever you choose to obey becomes your master.
What I think relates to this discussion is a biblical definition of idolatry. I'm sure others can chime in with references – but the most comprehensive one I can think of right off the bat is in Exodus 20 – I see a number of prohibitions/directives in the first half of the Ten Commandments intended to guard the monogamous relationship a believer has with the Lord God. And getting back to the worship/service correlation – it's intriguing to think about the practical side of the commandments – especially when put in the context of how I relate to others [don't murder, don't commit adultery, don't lie, don't steal, etc.].
That gets me thinking about when Jesus was asked what the most important commandment was in Matthew 22:36-40. Jesus' answer was not one – but two commandments – He summarized them as being to love God and neighbor – and saying that all the other commandments -demands - directives of the Law & Prophets are anchored, supported, based upon these two. Exodus 20 has love & service intertwined – but stated mostly in a negative sense ["Do not do so & so"]. Matthew 22 presents love & service as a positive duet.
I also agree with your point about how TWI's god was one of their own creation and through teachings like "the law of believing" & pushing SIT as perfect prayer & true worship there was a subliminal message getting fed to folks that God was at our beck & call – as long as we did the right things God would comply with our every wish or command.
I believe idolatry tends to be self-serving. And I think about the dark horrible experiences of abuse & sexual molestations mentioned on Grease Spot – that $ hi + is the extreme opposite of the two great commandments! Yeah, and vp re-defined what it means to love your neighbor anyway – saying "anything done in the love of God is okay."
Come to think of it, vp re-defined idolatry too. Did you ever hear him rant from the podium about Jesus Christ not being God and we should not worship Him? He'd go on & on making analogies about moving the decimal point one place over, changes the value of the numbers – and that to think Jesus is God is idolatry.
Ok – so I'm a Trinitarian and have nothing against my Unitarian brothers – but please allow me the freedom to follow the dictates of my conscience - of my understanding of John 1:1, Colossians 1: 15-20, Hebrews1: 5 & ff, and - uhm - well, you know the drill; but when it comes right down to it - the worship AND service aspect of it – the practical consequence of one's theology – I don't think we [Trinitarians & Unitarians] are that different practically speaking. And really who cares?!?! As long as neither side uses the issue as a polarizing tool to separate "the true believers" and damn the rest to hell – oh, shades of the New Knoxville Inquisition!
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Ham
I really think the vicster started with a vewy vewy little god, and "rightly divided (dissected)" him..
it wasn't even half a god..
any god that needs ME to tell him what to do.. isn't exactly God, in my estimation..
one teaching I NEVER heard in da way.. sometimes "no" is the answer to prayer. Even if it looks bilblical and lines up with all the supposed keys and all..
reminds me of an old bugs bunny cartoon.. Bugs and Christopher columbus. Everybody else jumped ship.. and it came down to only one bean left between them in the galley..
Bugs with carving knife..and the poor little bean..
"use your imagination Chris.. will it be light meat, or dark?"
Yeah.. I'll take the good half..
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Nottawayfer
Your words really struck me because I saw the face meltings so many time while on Staff at HQ. It's amazing we humiliated ourselves so much to put up with that crap and think it was godly and even OK!
In reality, we were led by a mentally unstable jacka$$ (LCM) who didn't even know his own arse from a hole in the ground. We thought God was speaking to and leading him, yet he was winging it and calling it spiritual. And don't get me started on the alcoholic sexual abuser before the mentally unstable jacka$$.
GAK!!! I shudder thinking about following men like that.
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lindyhopper
I think perhaps the problem is in the concept of idolatry.
That concept is that you can not put one thing above this other thing, thus sayeth the one true thing. So then you are convinced you've got the one true thing. Then one day you come upon a "revelation." The thing you thought was the one true thing was actually just some other thing. Damn it! You've been committing idolatry all that time. Well you'd better get back on track and put THE real one true thing back in position numero uno. This might take some adjusting of your view of things but all you know is you'd better not be committing idolatry. Thank goodness you know that you know that you know, or at least NOW you do or you'd better hope so. If not you're an idolater.
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T-Bone
Think I'm up to 4 cents now.. . don't mean to monopolize the discussion but the topic was on my mind over the long weekend and wound up checking out the definition of idolatry in a few biblical dictionaries.. . Anywho – thought a couple of the references were post-worthy – especially since they go along an idea expressed in Imagine's opening post and TrustandObey's post.
From Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, editor Walter Elwell, pages 542 & 543 under Idolatry:
".. .(1)The first commandment prohibited.. . worshipping any other god than the Lord (Exod. 20:3), thereby eliminating the false forms of idolatrous religion practiced in neighboring nations. (2) The second commandment forbade the worship of the God of Israel in the form of an image or idol (Exod. 20:4-6).
Of the two prohibitions, the latter was crucial to the integrity of Israel's theology. To worship God in the form of an idol would be to reduce God the creator to the substance of creation (that which was represented in the idol), thereby undermining fundamentally the conception of the transcendent creator God. The idol gave to devotees a sense of the physical proximity of a deity and perhaps also the conviction that the deity's power could be harnessed by human beings. The God of Israel was immanent, but the immanence could not be expressed in physical or tangible form; it remained the essence of faith and of experience.. .
.. . In the NT times idolatry was practiced in various forms throughout the Roman empire and was steadfastly resisted by the early Christian church. It was understood as a sign of human folly (Rom. 1:22-23), representing a perversion of true religion. More frequently, however, the NT writers used the concept of idolatry in a metaphorical sense, particularly with respect to covetousness (Eph. 5:5, Col. 3:5); covetousness is an "idol" by virtue of becoming the immediate focus of a person's desires and "worship", displacing the worship of God.
In the later history of Christianity, idolatry in the strict sense has continued to be opposed in the terms of the ancient biblical prohibitions. But the continuing danger has more commonly returned in the metaphorical sense delineated in the NT; it is the "worship" (i.e., the total dedication of a person) of that which is seen and tangible, the goals of covetousness, rather than the unseen spiritual being of God."
End of excerpts
~~
Considering the fact that one of the big sales pitches for PFAL was the benefit listed on the back of the Green Card "increases prosperity", and also recalling an old flyer for PFAL – I still have on file from my initial involvement in NY which boldly stated "you can have whatever you want" - - I would say a big chunk of TWI doctrine was both a product of idolatry as well as a producer of more idolatry – it's the gift that keeps on giving. A nifty little infectious combo! Makes me think of the old SNL joke commercial with Chevy Chase promoting a fantastic new product to an amazed Gilda Radner & Dan Aykroyd looking on "New Shimmer is a floor wax AND a dessert topping!"
Reflecting on my former beliefs, it seems to boil down to God being reduced to a genie-in-a-bottle, rub the PFAL book three times and make a wish – God AND this magical "law of believing" that supposedly He created were really nothing more than a means to an end. "After all, isn't it God's will that I should prosper? Didn't Jesus come to give me the more than abundant life?" Man oh man! I was always so concerned with trying to tap God's resources [aka "Father Money Bags"]! Honestly, I faithfully gave more than 10 % of my income to those lying, thieving weasels, wouldn't take on a better paying job that compensated techs for being on-call cuz that would interfere with the six evenings a week that I did something for them bozos – is it any wonder the wife & I had financial struggles our entire time in Wayworld - - that little green (card) idol always looked so tantalizing. Geez – it's almost like a drug addict turning dealer to ensure a steady supply. That's right folks, this post is a signed confession of a former idolater!
~~
My other reference speaks about greed in the context of idolatry – but also adds a few other things to consider.
From New Dictionary of Biblical Theology, editors T. Desmond Alexander, Brian S. Rosner, D.A. Carson, Graeme Goldsworthy, pages 569-575 under Idolatry:
".. . It is not just that idolatry was one vice among many of which the heathen were guilty; rather, idolatry is a defining feature of the heathen, whose way of life is characterized inevitably by this sin. I Thessalonians 4: 3-5, read in conjunction with 1:9, is an early Pauline witness to this conviction. The characterization of the heathen by the three sins of sexual immorality, idolatry and greed comes through consistently in the Pauline vice catalogues. Furthermore, these three sins are the only vices in the Pauline letters that are considered to be such a threat that they must be 'shunned' or 'fled' (I Cor. 6:18; 10:14 and I Tim. 6:10-11 respectively). In Romans 2:22 Paul takes it for granted that Jews abhor and detest idols. Opposition to idolatry was in effect a drawing of group boundaries for the people of God, set within the wider framework of their identity and self-definition. In making it clear what they stood for, they emphasized what they stood against.. .
.. . what then qualifies as idolatry? Although a number of possibilities, including pride, come to mind, the NT unambiguously judges only one thing to be idolatry, outside of the literal worship of idols, namely greed. The charge that greed is idolatry appears in four places. It is stated in Colossians 3:5.. . Ephesians 5:5.. . and implied in the mammon saying in Matthew 6:24 and Luke 16:13.. .
.. . The fundamental question of theology, 'What do we mean by "God"?', can be answered from a variety of angles by exploring God's various relations to the world and to ourselves. Ironically, the study of idolatry also gives us some insight into the nature of the true God. What constitutes a god? Martin Luther's answer, as he reflected on the first commandment in his larger catechism, was 'whatever your heart clings to and relies upon, that is your God; trust and faith of the heart alone make both God and idol.' We wish to confirm his view, but also to emphasize love and service: a god is that which one loves, trusts and serves above all else. This definition suggests both the possibility and the urgency of making clear the relevance of idolatry to the modern world.. ."
End of excerpts
~~
I think it was in that book I mentioned earlier, Idols for Destruction – that I came upon a passage that held a simple yet powerful warning – beware of setting up idols in the heart – though invisible they are still real enough to become a major stumbling block:
Ezekiel 14:7, 8 NIV
7 When any Israelite or any alien living in Israel separates himself from me and sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet to inquire of me, I the LORD will answer him myself. 8 I will set my face against that man and make him an example and a byword. I will cut him off from my people. Then you will know that I am the LORD.
Thinking about this discussion and these references – stirs up a lot of old memories from a murky mindset of long ago. How I held PFAL and vp in such a high regard – perhaps not even realizing I viewed them as just about on par with the Bible & God Himself! I mean – if vp said it – that settles it! I mean it's really weird to reflect on some of this stuff. Yuk - a system of thought that was fattening me up for the express purpose of sucking my life away - shades of the Copper Top life in "The Matrix". Life support system for some ravenous beast - weird bunch of idols wrapped up in a Christian costume. Yeech, me feeling like an adult sheep – looking over some old family photos – and a little unsettled by some of the details; obvious to me now but never noticed at the time the pictures were taken, "Holy $hi t, I was raised by wolves!"
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
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Ham
What's interesting to me.. some of us in this world fight vehemently regarding which half a god we think we've got..
maybe da way (and some others) treat theology like a cookbook.. bake a god, in twelve (more or less, depending on the particular flavor) easy steps..
Geometry and algebra is like that. Someone makes a system of axioms or conditions. Then if a set with certain operations qualifies, it is considered to be one of the algebras..
in way terms, I think they have the following axioms:
1. God is all powerful
2. God is infinitely intelligent
3. He can be understood (or he is rational)
4. He is perfect in every way
5. He is completely righteous and fair
6. He exists, to serve me. If at any time I press the right buttons and switches, I can have anything I want.
I don't think one can find a god that fulfils all of these conditions.. at the same time.
Kind of like getting a fair election. Kenneth Arrow proved that any election cannot satisfy all conditions of fairness, at the same time.
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RumRunner
I can't help it Ham - I have to pull a George Carlin on you. You might remember when he reduced the ten commandments to something like two commandments. Now I am not as talented as him so I'll reduce your six to three.
1. Given as an axiom
2. Logically follows from 1
3. Logically follows from 2 which follows from 1
Thus 1-3 can be collapsed into 1.
4. Given as an axiom
5. Follows from 4.
Thus 4-5 can be reduced to 4.
6. uhhhhhh - smirk - uhhhhh - that one can stand as wishful thinking I suspect
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Ham
Actually I thought 2 and 3 were pretty independent.. I mean, if He's THAT smart, who else can understand Him?
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Ham
One of the cats in the house here.. I think it thinks I'm a god, or god, or something..
I cook an egg for it every morning..
well, actually two. The cat gets most of the yolk (with most of the cholesterol) and I leave just enough yolk for me that the egg isn't entirely tasteless, for me..
In a way, it's good for both parties here..
when this cat misbehaves.. the lady of the house says.. "you'd better listen.. nobody else is going to cook egg for you every day.."
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