BTW - just for fun go look up any non-TWI books we used - search for them on Amazon if you'd like - cheaper now than we paid in 1970's dollars. Something sound like price gouging here?
I think that is a conservative estimate of what was made and I am pretty sure 10,000 is a conservative estimate of attendies.. at least for the late 70's early 80's I know even out west we had 100's coming from our states.
You figure food, and books and tapes and abundant sharing as has been noted YEah I am guessing a pretty penny was made.
edited to add.... my first year after WOW coming from Montana there were about 30 from just our area... Great Falls and surrounding area.
10,000 seems low. I seem to remember in the early to mid-80's that they were saying closer to 20,000 although my fading memory could be wrong. By then the tix were $40 --entrance fees alone would be $800K before anyone even spent a penny. How much then was a week of food? $50 is way low but thats a million there. Thats $1.8M before you even start counting
People regularly spent hundreds on books, tapes, gunk and of course just giving it away to blessed Vic.
Whoever said 6 mill probably would be pretty close.
10,000 seems low. I seem to remember in the early to mid-80's that they were saying closer to 20,000 although my fading memory could be wrong. By then the tix were $40 --entrance fees alone would be $800K before anyone even spent a penny. How much then was a week of food? $50 is way low but thats a million there. Thats $1.8M before you even start counting
People regularly spent hundreds on books, tapes, gunk and of course just giving it away to blessed Vic.
Whoever said 6 mill probably would be pretty close.
Maybe the WayGB ( )could look it up and tell us
From 1978-1984......as I recall, the attendance increased from like 16,000 to 23.000 and radically decreased after the 1986 pop paper and exodus.
10,000 seems low. I seem to remember in the early to mid-80's that they were saying closer to 20,000 although my fading memory could be wrong. By then the tix were $40 --entrance fees alone would be $800K before anyone even spent a penny. How much then was a week of food? $50 is way low but thats a million there. Thats $1.8M before you even start counting
People regularly spent hundreds on books, tapes, gunk and of course just giving it away to blessed Vic.
Whoever said 6 mill probably would be pretty close.
Maybe the WayGB ( )could look it up and tell us
You are only considering gross receipts, here. Although the labor was mostly free, you still have to take out the cost of the food, the utilities, etc., before you can answer how much ROA actually made. I expect that the net was pretty significant, though!
It would be interesting to learn if profitability was the real reason the ROA's ended. Perhaps being an unprofitable wineskin was the reason it became an "old wineskin".
Perhaps. Along with having perhaps the worst weather in the last two years of the rock. I think it scared the crap out of them.. I think loy was afraid of the liability of having to do some explaining how da debil could run amock on "gawd's green acres" or something..
he already ushered out suspected "homos" and "unprofitable" people.. he was running out of people to place the blame on..
He brought that calf into this world and knew exactly what it needed to stay healthy.
He knew exactly how to milk it for maximum production.
When Farmer Vic "bought the farm", the feeding and care directions were either lost or misunderstood.
Hence, the cow succumbed to an inevitable demise.
waysider........I tend to think that we sometimes give vic far too much credit. The beginnings of roa was a no-brainer...... some music, teenagers and youth sitting on the grass, tents and stay-overs, all adding to a preliminary setting for vp's preaching session and added adulation. As rock of ages grew and morphed......its core element was the sending forth (and homecoming) of the wow ambassadors. Beyond that.......twi had very few answers to families attending roa, childrens' activities, first aid precautions, shower facilities, mid-day lulls of activity, etc. In retrospect, to me......twi's roa had the same "planning" as the hodge-podge trailer park on grounds.
Wierwille was no visionary...........all those "plans" for camp gunnison -- cabins for elderly followers, a restaurant up on the hill overlooking the gunnison river, horse trails, etc. etc. -- all those lofty "plans" fell flat. Not one senior twi follower bought into the idea (scam) of investing in a log cabin and reliquishing it to twi property upon death.
Wierwille's *snow-way*......... the super, duper all-terrain vehicle that those two family corps guys spent some 18 months working on for wierwille never panned out.
What ever happened to the 13 episodes of High Country Caravan that were to be released for tv public viewing? The interest in this entertainment outside twi-land was very minimal......as I recall.
IMO, wierwille had a 15-year run (1968-1983) that *dazzled* us youth.......and struggled with his identity and health issues in '84, '85 and flew off to see geer prior to his 1985 May death. BUT.......the "programs and visions" that he set in motion were short-lived. Twi had NO ANSWERS for families, for professionals, for adaptability..........the plaf class was the end-all STAGNANT ANSWER to everything. Just run classes......"they will come."
10,000 seems low. I seem to remember in the early to mid-80's that they were saying closer to 20,000 although my fading memory could be wrong. By then the tix were $40 --entrance fees alone would be $800K before anyone even spent a penny. How much then was a week of food? $50 is way low but thats a million there. Thats $1.8M before you even start counting
People regularly spent hundreds on books, tapes, gunk and of course just giving it away to blessed Vic.
Whoever said 6 mill probably would be pretty close.
IMO, wierwille had a 15-year run (1968-1983) that *dazzled* us youth.......and struggled with his identity and health issues in '84, '85 and flew off to see geer prior to his 1985 May death. BUT.......the "programs and visions" that he set in motion were short-lived. Twi had NO ANSWERS for families, for professionals, for adaptability..........the plaf class was the end-all STAGNANT ANSWER to everything. Just run classes......"they will come."
This is my opinion, too... ROA started as a natural offshoot of the attitude, interests and lifestyle of their membership in the 1970s... now flash forward to the 1990s when many of us had small children in tow, and were still being told to come camp for a week (or two weeks if you were way corps). And you were under a cloud of suspicion if you didn't attend. Add to that they started hyper-regulating everything (what jobs you could work, what twig you had to attend and when, etc. etc.) --- yeah, THAT's a blessing. <_<
I think it was always a numbers game and when the numbers turned less favorable they pulled the plug.
I think it was always a numbers game and when the numbers turned less favorable they pulled the plug.
Numbers may have been attached, but the big thing was that ROA was the one time when everyone gathered and a good way of seeing who was still standing. There was an element of being able to show up without pre-registering if you weren't planning on staying on site (which we never did).
I think that initially many of the higher ups were in such denial about how many left that they simply did what was always done. Later, it became evident that the gatherings allowed people to share information (and we all know how bad that is).
I think ROA was stopped because it was a glaring reminder of the level of decimation of the rank and file, even for those steeped in denial.
Good point Tazia, I never thought of it that way, but stopping it would curtail al ot of talk and comparing of notes concerning twi ways, M&A's and new policies, a great way of curbing the building of resentment from the rank and file. I bet Corps week was real fun for those who attended those years. Maybe some attendees can let us know if all the yelling from the Big Forehead made their ears ring. Maybe they could tell us if their was a visible difference in the numbers of people, the amount of campers, and if the big top tents were scaled down after so many left or were booted out of twi.
...I think ROA was stopped because it was a glaring reminder of the level of decimation of the rank and file, even for those steeped in denial.
The ROA was discontinued by LCM. He was upset by all the "screwing around" (literally) going on at the Rock by some teenagers. (For exmple: Corp week was being called "Score week"). I think he axed it because some kids were "making out" better than him.
The ROA was discontinued by LCM. He was upset by all the "screwing around" (literally) going on at the Rock by some teenagers. (For exmple: Corp week was being called "Score week"). I think he axed it because some kids were "making out" better than him.
Yeah, well, that was their official line, but I've since learned that whatever their official line was concerning a matter, you can bet money that wasn't the real reason!
I had forgotten about the whole communication aspect... I do think that was a primary reason for shutting it down. A lot of us were unhappy in our own little corners of the world, but when we got together and saw how many friends were gone, and how unhappy other people were in their own little corners of the world, it was a lot easier to put two-and-two together and decide to leave twi-land.
With all the friggin' in the riggin' at International HQ almost since its inception, I cannot imagine that a little more would bother him all that much, and for only one week at that.
I think ROA was stopped because it was a glaring reminder of the level of decimation of the rank and file, even for those steeped in denial.
I've stated this before, but...........I think ROA was cancelled because of MONEY. In March/April 1995 martindale stated that he got "revelation" for all the corps to be full-time. Bobble-heads Don and Howard nodded in agreement. All active corps would be placed on twi payroll and meet with twi's PR/Finance point-man at Corps Week 1995. Thus, going forward...........EVERY ROCK OF AGES would have all corps as paid staff (travel expenses, motel stay-overs, food, gas expense, children-in-tow, etc. etc. etc) year after year.
Three weeks after the 1995 roa, when martindale addressed the corps on the first corps phone hook-up of the 1995-1996 year, he bluntly stated the NEW RULES AND REGULATIONS for corps expenditures. He cancelled the rock of ages....giving the lame excuse of "teenagers screwing in tent city"......and FUTHER STATED that no corps would attend the November Word in Business Conference unless specifically "invited." In other words, WE DO NOT WANT TO SPEND ABS MONEY FOR YOU CORPS TO ATTEND WORD IN BUSINESS.......OR ANY FUTURE ROA.
The emphasis of the corps meeting was to set precedence on MONEY issues..........it was SO OBVIOUS.
The ROA was discontinued by LCM. He was upset by all the "screwing around" (literally) going on at the Rock by some teenagers. (For exmple: Corp week was being called "Score week"). I think he axed it because some kids were "making out" better than him.
I thought imitation was the sincerest form of flattery.
I've stated this before, but...........I think ROA was cancelled because of MONEY. In March/April 1995 martindale stated that he got "revelation" for all the corps to be full-time. Bobble-heads Don and Howard nodded in agreement. All active corps would be placed on twi payroll and meet with twi's PR/Finance point-man at Corps Week 1995. Thus, going forward...........EVERY ROCK OF AGES would have all corps as paid staff (travel expenses, motel stay-overs, food, gas expense, children-in-tow, etc. etc. etc) year after year.
Three weeks after the 1995 roa, when martindale addressed the corps on the first corps phone hook-up of the 1995-1996 year, he bluntly stated the NEW RULES AND REGULATIONS for corps expenditures. He cancelled the rock of ages....giving the lame excuse of "teenagers screwing in tent city"......and FUTHER STATED that no corps would attend the November Word in Business Conference unless specifically "invited." In other words, WE DO NOT WANT TO SPEND ABS MONEY FOR YOU CORPS TO ATTEND WORD IN BUSINESS.......OR ANY FUTURE ROA.
The emphasis of the corps meeting was to set precedence on MONEY issues..........it was SO OBVIOUS.
Maybe for those of you who were there during those years. We just heard it through the grapevine, but by that time CES was going through all its crap as well, so I wasn't paying much attention.
it was pretty typical for lcm to screw things up then blame twi followers. no matter what the real reason was, he'd tell the masses it was them. homos, horny teenagers, whatever. our "lack of believing" kept him from realizing his grandiose fantasies - it was NEVER because they were BS or because HE "missed it".
To clarify a little more...........added (bold type).
I've stated this before, but...........I think ROA was cancelled because of MONEY. In March/April 1995 martindale stated that he got "revelation" for all the corps to be full-time. Bobble-heads Don and Howard nodded in agreement. All active corps would be placed on twi payroll and meet with twi's PR/Finance point-man at Corps Week 1995. Thus, going forward...........EVERY ROCK OF AGES would have all corps as paid staff (travel expenses, motel stay-overs, food, gas expense, children-in-tow, etc. etc. etc) year after year.
The corps was the primary labor force for roa.........behind the scenes, some corps were starting work shifts at 4:30am for food warehousing, breakfast prep, stocking supplies, bless patrol, trustee services, etc. etc. IMO, martindale never considered the ramifications (nor did Don or Howard) of putting all active corps on full-time payroll. It totally changed the dynamics of twi's financial picture.........within weeks into September 1995, the trunk office was scrambling to write their procedures for corps expenses and all corps were being "scrutinized to see who really didn't measure up." In other words, twi was ALREADY trying to eliminate the staggering amount of twi salary.
Month after month, martindale yelled on every corps meeting........he knew that his "revelation" was in jeopardy of shipwrecking. Cost-cutting measures were the talk of every corps meeting.......as the trustees could see the red ink of their decision. By 1996, the pregnancy policy, the pet policy, no music lessons, no karate lessons, dental care issues, etc. etc..........were on-going topics of discussion on those corps meetings. Then, the trunk office sanctioned the 15-minute slot daily schedules that all corps had to fill out and fax to their overseers each week. IMO, all of this was to decrease the corps ranks.....and as corps went back into the secular work force AND ABUNDANTLY SHARED it was a double dose for the twi coffers.
The all-corps-full-time experiment was A COMPLETE FIASCO.......it struggled all three years. And, it gave the trustees access to the personal lives of all corps. The corps are the personal property of twi..........doncha know?
Three weeks after the 1995 roa, when martindale addressed the corps on the first corps phone hook-up of the 1995-1996 year, he bluntly stated the NEW RULES AND REGULATIONS for corps expenditures. He cancelled the rock of ages....giving the lame excuse of "teenagers screwing in tent city"......and FUTHER STATED that no corps would attend the November Word in Business Conference unless specifically "invited." In other words, WE DO NOT WANT TO SPEND ABS MONEY FOR YOU CORPS TO ATTEND WORD IN BUSINESS.......OR ANY FUTURE ROA.
The emphasis of the corps meeting was to set precedence on MONEY issues..........it was SO OBVIOUS.
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RumRunner
A couple of us had the discussion - we estimated about $6 mil during the "banner" years
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RumRunner
BTW - just for fun go look up any non-TWI books we used - search for them on Amazon if you'd like - cheaper now than we paid in 1970's dollars. Something sound like price gouging here?
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leafytwiglet
I think that is a conservative estimate of what was made and I am pretty sure 10,000 is a conservative estimate of attendies.. at least for the late 70's early 80's I know even out west we had 100's coming from our states.
You figure food, and books and tapes and abundant sharing as has been noted YEah I am guessing a pretty penny was made.
edited to add.... my first year after WOW coming from Montana there were about 30 from just our area... Great Falls and surrounding area.
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mstar1
10,000 seems low. I seem to remember in the early to mid-80's that they were saying closer to 20,000 although my fading memory could be wrong. By then the tix were $40 --entrance fees alone would be $800K before anyone even spent a penny. How much then was a week of food? $50 is way low but thats a million there. Thats $1.8M before you even start counting
People regularly spent hundreds on books, tapes, gunk and of course just giving it away to blessed Vic.
Whoever said 6 mill probably would be pretty close.
Maybe the WayGB (
)could look it up and tell us
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skyrider
From 1978-1984......as I recall, the attendance increased from like 16,000 to 23.000 and radically decreased after the 1986 pop paper and exodus.
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GeorgeStGeorge
You are only considering gross receipts, here. Although the labor was mostly free, you still have to take out the cost of the food, the utilities, etc., before you can answer how much ROA actually made. I expect that the net was pretty significant, though!
George
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shortfuse
It would be interesting to learn if profitability was the real reason the ROA's ended. Perhaps being an unprofitable wineskin was the reason it became an "old wineskin".
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Ham
Perhaps. Along with having perhaps the worst weather in the last two years of the rock. I think it scared the crap out of them.. I think loy was afraid of the liability of having to do some explaining how da debil could run amock on "gawd's green acres" or something..
he already ushered out suspected "homos" and "unprofitable" people.. he was running out of people to place the blame on..
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waysider
ROA was Farmer Vic's cash cow.
He brought that calf into this world and knew exactly what it needed to stay healthy.
He knew exactly how to milk it for maximum production.
When Farmer Vic "bought the farm", the feeding and care directions were either lost or misunderstood.
Hence, the cow succumbed to an inevitable demise.
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skyrider
waysider........I tend to think that we sometimes give vic far too much credit. The beginnings of roa was a no-brainer...... some music, teenagers and youth sitting on the grass, tents and stay-overs, all adding to a preliminary setting for vp's preaching session and added adulation. As rock of ages grew and morphed......its core element was the sending forth (and homecoming) of the wow ambassadors. Beyond that.......twi had very few answers to families attending roa, childrens' activities, first aid precautions, shower facilities, mid-day lulls of activity, etc. In retrospect, to me......twi's roa had the same "planning" as the hodge-podge trailer park on grounds.
Wierwille was no visionary...........all those "plans" for camp gunnison -- cabins for elderly followers, a restaurant up on the hill overlooking the gunnison river, horse trails, etc. etc. -- all those lofty "plans" fell flat. Not one senior twi follower bought into the idea (scam) of investing in a log cabin and reliquishing it to twi property upon death.
Wierwille's *snow-way*......... the super, duper all-terrain vehicle that those two family corps guys spent some 18 months working on for wierwille never panned out.
What ever happened to the 13 episodes of High Country Caravan that were to be released for tv public viewing? The interest in this entertainment outside twi-land was very minimal......as I recall.
IMO, wierwille had a 15-year run (1968-1983) that *dazzled* us youth.......and struggled with his identity and health issues in '84, '85 and flew off to see geer prior to his 1985 May death. BUT.......the "programs and visions" that he set in motion were short-lived. Twi had NO ANSWERS for families, for professionals, for adaptability..........the plaf class was the end-all STAGNANT ANSWER to everything. Just run classes......"they will come."
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Twinky
Heh heh, what's this, the myth of the 6 million?
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TheHighWay
This is my opinion, too... ROA started as a natural offshoot of the attitude, interests and lifestyle of their membership in the 1970s... now flash forward to the 1990s when many of us had small children in tow, and were still being told to come camp for a week (or two weeks if you were way corps). And you were under a cloud of suspicion if you didn't attend. Add to that they started hyper-regulating everything (what jobs you could work, what twig you had to attend and when, etc. etc.) --- yeah, THAT's a blessing.
<_<
I think it was always a numbers game and when the numbers turned less favorable they pulled the plug.
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Tzaia
Numbers may have been attached, but the big thing was that ROA was the one time when everyone gathered and a good way of seeing who was still standing. There was an element of being able to show up without pre-registering if you weren't planning on staying on site (which we never did).
I think that initially many of the higher ups were in such denial about how many left that they simply did what was always done. Later, it became evident that the gatherings allowed people to share information (and we all know how bad that is).
I think ROA was stopped because it was a glaring reminder of the level of decimation of the rank and file, even for those steeped in denial.
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now I see
Good point Tazia, I never thought of it that way, but stopping it would curtail al ot of talk and comparing of notes concerning twi ways, M&A's and new policies, a great way of curbing the building of resentment from the rank and file. I bet Corps week was real fun for those who attended those years. Maybe some attendees can let us know if all the yelling from the Big Forehead made their ears ring. Maybe they could tell us if their was a visible difference in the numbers of people, the amount of campers, and if the big top tents were scaled down after so many left or were booted out of twi.
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What The Hey
The ROA was discontinued by LCM. He was upset by all the "screwing around" (literally) going on at the Rock by some teenagers. (For exmple: Corp week was being called "Score week"). I think he axed it because some kids were "making out" better than him.
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TheHighWay
Yeah, well, that was their official line, but I've since learned that whatever their official line was concerning a matter, you can bet money that wasn't the real reason!
I had forgotten about the whole communication aspect... I do think that was a primary reason for shutting it down. A lot of us were unhappy in our own little corners of the world, but when we got together and saw how many friends were gone, and how unhappy other people were in their own little corners of the world, it was a lot easier to put two-and-two together and decide to leave twi-land.
(edited for clarity)
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Watered Garden
With all the friggin' in the riggin' at International HQ almost since its inception, I cannot imagine that a little more would bother him all that much, and for only one week at that.
WG
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skyrider
I've stated this before, but...........I think ROA was cancelled because of MONEY. In March/April 1995 martindale stated that he got "revelation" for all the corps to be full-time. Bobble-heads Don and Howard nodded in agreement. All active corps would be placed on twi payroll and meet with twi's PR/Finance point-man at Corps Week 1995. Thus, going forward...........EVERY ROCK OF AGES would have all corps as paid staff (travel expenses, motel stay-overs, food, gas expense, children-in-tow, etc. etc. etc) year after year.
Three weeks after the 1995 roa, when martindale addressed the corps on the first corps phone hook-up of the 1995-1996 year, he bluntly stated the NEW RULES AND REGULATIONS for corps expenditures. He cancelled the rock of ages....giving the lame excuse of "teenagers screwing in tent city"......and FUTHER STATED that no corps would attend the November Word in Business Conference unless specifically "invited." In other words, WE DO NOT WANT TO SPEND ABS MONEY FOR YOU CORPS TO ATTEND WORD IN BUSINESS.......OR ANY FUTURE ROA.
The emphasis of the corps meeting was to set precedence on MONEY issues..........it was SO OBVIOUS.
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Tzaia
I thought imitation was the sincerest form of flattery.
Maybe for those of you who were there during those years. We just heard it through the grapevine, but by that time CES was going through all its crap as well, so I wasn't paying much attention.
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potato
it was pretty typical for lcm to screw things up then blame twi followers. no matter what the real reason was, he'd tell the masses it was them. homos, horny teenagers, whatever. our "lack of believing" kept him from realizing his grandiose fantasies - it was NEVER because they were BS or because HE "missed it".
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skyrider
To clarify a little more...........added (bold type).
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