When I got out in 2001 there were ten states that had so few people that they had no Limb Coordinator. I'm sure that the process has accelerated since then. North & South Dakota, Nebraska, Mississippi, Vermont & New Hampshire, Delaware - I can't remember the other three.
On that Ebay Seller site [selling Cummings Greek Research] they state the following:
---the organization has been in steady decline since its founder died. Shortly afterward it fell apart in a flurry of lawsuits charging sexual harassment, rape, homosexuality and homosexual purges and a slew financial shenanigans. In 1982 it has 3,100 world recruiters. By 1997 it had 43. Membership that once numbered six figures is down to less than 4,000.
Must be someone from the inside, or very close to it.
On that Ebay Seller site [selling Cummings Greek Research] they state the following:
---the organization has been in steady decline since its founder died. Shortly afterward it fell apart in a flurry of lawsuits charging sexual harassment, rape, homosexuality and homosexual purges and a slew financial shenanigans. In 1982 it has 3,100 world recruiters. By 1997 it had 43. Membership that once numbered six figures is down to less than 4,000.
Must be someone from the inside, or very close to it.
That part of his/her listing would make it seem so, but that info might have been gleaned from various anti-twi sites on the Internet. The fact that he/she says VPW didn't believe in salvation and that once someone dies, that's it, makes me wonder if he/she was ever directly involved.
Okay, will the real EBay seller please stand up if you're here. :)
Good point. I was in during the 80's when references to international folks was more common. Before I left in the 90's, those comments stopped. Come to think of it, with the exception of Australia, I doubt it ever came up on SNS tapes, way mag articles, etc. Do you know if there is anything left of TWI outside the US?
Even when I was "in" most folk in TWI had no concept of International Outreach. They had no idea where most other countries were. There was a map of the world inset into some oval table in the Auditorium - with some countries not even shown even though there was space to put them.
Hello, hello! There is a world outside the USA, and it's not just for dropping bombs on, either.
The outreach model demanded by TWI didn't really work overseas (come to that, it wasn't so effective in the US, either). Door-knockers and people accosting potential recruits in shopping malls: not quite the European thing.
Most of Europe was "written off" by VPW and/or LCM as being "spiritually dark" because they weren't interested in the high-pressure sales techniques used by TWI.
Guam was counted as an international outreach country but it was really only noticed because US personnel were stationed over there.
Anyway, back to the point: there are still some Way-affiliated fellowships in other countries.
There is also a not insignificant number of splinter groups led by WC or sometimes not even WC. There's quite a brisk "outreach" in hooking these up together, but as individual fellowships or ministries.
There is a surprisingly high number of Wayfers or exWayfers in most European countries; also in some African countries. Some Europeans have set up fellowships or ministries. Some have gone back to mainstream churches.
Even when I was "in" most folk in TWI had no concept of International Outreach. They had no idea where most other countries were. There was a map of the world inset into some oval table in the Auditorium - with some countries not even shown even though there was space to put them.
Hello, hello! There is a world outside the USA, and it's not just for dropping bombs on, either.
The outreach model demanded by TWI didn't really work overseas (come to that, it wasn't so effective in the US, either). Door-knockers and people accosting potential recruits in shopping malls: not quite the European thing.
Most of Europe was "written off" by VPW and/or LCM as being "spiritually dark" because they weren't interested in the high-pressure sales techniques used by TWI.
Guam was counted as an international outreach country but it was really only noticed because US personnel were stationed over there.
Anyway, back to the point: there are still some Way-affiliated fellowships in other countries.
There is also a not insignificant number of splinter groups led by WC or sometimes not even WC. There's quite a brisk "outreach" in hooking these up together, but as individual fellowships or ministries.
There is a surprisingly high number of Wayfers or exWayfers in most European countries; also in some African countries. Some Europeans have set up fellowships or ministries. Some have gone back to mainstream churches.
Twinky,
Thanks for jogging my memory. Now I remember being at HQ for something and seeing flags in the OSC. My "host" told me they represented countries with standing TWI grads. When I started asking questions, it was typical TWI spin. Turns out, a US military person temporarily stationed somewhere got a flag. No outreach, no twig, nothing. Just "Joe Grad" passing through? Well, that's good enough for TWI!
I wonder how long it took a bunch of yokels from Ohio to figure out that Parisians would laugh at them and their sales techniques! Does anyone know how TWI operated in Europe? Was it the same sales model?
In the beginning of the 90's it seemed like a lot of the European wayfers were from Africa, particularly Zaire. TWI claimed fellowships in 50 countries at one time. It seems like Africa & South America were the areas where most of these wayfers were located.
"...In that light, I've not heard much currently regarding the numbers of people who graduated the Way Corps for a few years. I remember a few years ago, they had about 7 people (most were couples) flanked by all the BOD and other such 'important' people. Did anyone know how many have graduated in the past 2-3 years?"
OK - so I guess the answer to my question is, No - no one knows the #'s for recent Corps graduations. Thanks for all who participated.
OK - so I guess the answer to my question is, No - no one knows the #'s for recent Corps graduations. Thanks for all who participated.
...
Patriot,
To answer your curiosity, I looked at my friends mag this afternoon which had a pic of the graduating Corps this summer, Coprs 38 I believe.. And I counted "about" 16 adults (6 kids)..
Do you know if there is anything left of TWI outside the US?
Thanks to someone who is still 'in', I know that there is something going on in Venezuela. Apparently, it is big enough to have a LC or Country Coordinator or whatever they term it now.
To answer your curiosity, I looked at my friends mag this afternoon which had a pic of the graduating Corps this summer, Coprs 38 I believe.. And I counted "about" 16 adults (6 kids)..
Is there still a Family Corps or are the numbers too small to have separate groups? Can you tell how many of the 16 adults are couples?
JT, if I'm not mistaken they stopped doing separate family corps a number of years back, when they decided to sell the Rome City campus. (sorry, don't remember the year)
Is there still a Family Corps or are the numbers too small to have separate groups? Can you tell how many of the 16 adults are couples?
JT
Numbers are too small. All are together - it's probably been 10 years now at least. They were all at Gunnison until about 3 yrs ago, now all are in New Knoxville at the HQ.
Thanks to someone who is still 'in', I know that there is something going on in Venezuela. Apparently, it is big enough to have a LC or Country Coordinator or whatever they term it now.
The key here, Kevin, is the part about something "big enough" going on to require a country coordinator. What is the standard? Glad you asked. I met the country coordinator of Germany at the last advanced class special I went to (maybe in 2000). We were on the same airport shuttle. Turns out it is a similar requirement as getting a country's flag at HQ. This guy was corps, perhaps military (don't n but it would have made sense seeing that he was American) and he along with his wife were the country coordinators of Germany. When we asked about how many people/fellowships etc were in Germany he explained it was the two of them and another guy... aaaaaaand that was it! You see all you need to have a country coordinator is to have an active corps grad in that country and BAM they're it!
Oh you've gotta love VWP's vision, NAY, revelation of Word over the World and his preemptive naming of the Way International, even before it was so HUGELY international!
Actually, I know someone who knows someone in what used to be Zaire, now the Democratic Republic of the Congo, and apparently there is a huge number of Wayfer-ish people there, something ridiculous like 50,000 (in part because of the patriarchal society where the family does what the head of the family does or something). Anyway, they apparently are left basically without much interaction with "the root" in NK. So I don't really know if they should still be considered Wayfers but that's what I've heard. I don't know if they get tapes or what.
Actually, I know someone who knows someone in what used to be Zaire, now the Democratic Republic of the Congo, and apparently there is a huge number of Wayfer-ish people there, something ridiculous like 50,000 (in part because of the patriarchal society where the family does what the head of the family does or something). Anyway, they apparently are left basically without much interaction with "the root" in NK. So I don't really know if they should still be considered Wayfers but that's what I've heard. I don't know if they get tapes or what.
I can state, with complete confidence, that they don't get tapes from NK, and they're not "supported"
by NK. The reason is simple. The old saying that "each twig is self-sustaining" means hq never sends
any money out to locales. For hq to send tapes to "Zaire" would be a financial loss to hq.
They won't get enough of a tithe to make it ever worth SENDING.
(The carrying charges and fees would be close to whatever the South Africans could afford to send.)
So, we're talking about people that will never be a profit-source for hq.
When there was a bigger surplus, hq could afford to send surplus PEOPLE there to put together big
meetings and get a certain cachet for the group. However, the powers-that-be care a lot more about
money than about numbers, so Africa has been cut adrift to fend for itself.
I can state, with complete confidence, that they don't get tapes from NK, and they're not "supported"
by NK. The reason is simple. The old saying that "each twig is self-sustaining" means hq never sends
any money out to locales. For hq to send tapes to "Zaire" would be a financial loss to hq.
They won't get enough of a tithe to make it ever worth SENDING.
(The carrying charges and fees would be close to whatever the South Africans could afford to send.)
So, we're talking about people that will never be a profit-source for hq.
When there was a bigger surplus, hq could afford to send surplus PEOPLE there to put together big
meetings and get a certain cachet for the group. However, the powers-that-be care a lot more about
money than about numbers, so Africa has been cut adrift to fend for itself.
Aw, yes.....Zaire.
Back in the early 80s, twi was courting Zaire with much fervor......Rev. T0m KnVpp was overseeing the African continent, and he (and wife, Marilyn) lived in Africa for about two years.
Rev. Byunga (??) was the country coordinator and spoke on main stage at roa. Andre Z. and Roger L. went into the 12th corps....and after ordinations, returned to Zaire in major leadership roles. With culture and social and economic levels per se, thousands would sign up for twi classes......looking for avenues of opportunity and advancement. Extended families and relatives came pouring into the classes.
More and more, Zaire under Byunga's leadership was breaking away from twi's hq. Byunga could not be reined in.....and he scoffed at their petty policies. Other african corps grads were ordained and were appointed "limb coordinators" over cities in Zaire (iirc). After Cgeer's power-grab in 1986/87......Zaire was rarily talked about in way mag articles.
In the late 90s (??)......Rev. Andre Z@kompanie died. He was a really neat guy. I will always remember him and Roger working at hq during their inrez years......communicating in broken English, talking in French, singing in Kikongo and joking in Lingaula (sp?).
In the end, twi frowned on any work that was moving towards INDEPENDENT WORK. Twi has motives of centralized control, period.
The international countries all work in some ways independant of NK HQ, especially w/r to money. All ABS stays in the country, rather than all of it being sent to NK and only 25% of it being allocated to the original locations (states) such as happens in the US. International countries all purchase bookstore items from NK rather than in the states the inventory in the bookstore is "fronted" to the states until purchased.
However, with the command and control structure of TWI leadership, they are doing "leadership training" from NK now for all the country coordinators. This is hilarious. Someone who has never dealt with the numbers, the culture, the specific problems of an area is teaching them how they do things in NK and they are supposed to learn from it. All they really learn is how to mostly ignore NK and do their own thing, and send in letters kissing bootie. After all, the $$$ is right there at home and is not controlled.
The international countries all work in some ways independant of NK HQ, especially w/r to money. All ABS stays in the country, rather than all of it being sent to NK and only 25% of it being allocated to the original locations (states) such as happens in the US. International countries all purchase bookstore items from NK rather than in the states the inventory in the bookstore is "fronted" to the states until purchased.
However, with the command and control structure of TWI leadership, they are doing "leadership training" from NK now for all the country coordinators. This is hilarious. Someone who has never dealt with the numbers, the culture, the specific problems of an area is teaching them how they do things in NK and they are supposed to learn from it. All they really learn is how to mostly ignore NK and do their own thing, and send in letters kissing bootie. After all, the $$$ is right there at home and is not controlled.
Yes, international countries work independant of NK....with respect to money.
BUT........THE SIGNING OFFICERS IN CANADA'S DOCUMENTS: 1) Rosalie Rivenbark, 2) Roger Mittler, and 3) Jean Yves-DeLisle
The country coordinator of canada, J0e Pxrry, has a signature listed on the paperwork as well...but not, as "a signing officer." MORE TO THE POINT --- TWI DIRECTORS ARE THE OFFICERS/GUARDIANS OF THE BUSINESS ENTERPRISE, THE CAPITAL, THE MONEY.
However, with the command and control structure of TWI leadership, they are doing "leadership training" from NK now for all the country coordinators. This is hilarious. Someone who has never dealt with the numbers, the culture, the specific problems of an area is teaching them how they do things in NK and they are supposed to learn from it.
Chockfull, not sure you are right about all the ABS staying in country. I lived in another country and as I recall (though I may be wrong) some of the ABS had to be sent to HQ - not all of it. And some of the ABS that stayed in the country was used to subsidize events for the country believers (that I do know for sure).
But hey it was a long time ago. Things may well have changed. It would be more of a surprise if they hadn't changed...
I don't know how many there are now, but I was surprised when I looked at a Google satellite image of the property. There were not many cars there and the grounds looked very deserted (though still well maintained). I never saw the blue painted basketball court before, east of the Jordan bridge. When did that go in?
Actually TWI is very upfront in communicating to believers in the us about the International Outreach progress. Most people know how many countries are official (established leadership with trained country coordinators). Those flags do not represent just "Joe Grad" in a military base. The flags represent official countries that meet criteria. There are many other countries that are still "developing" that are not "official" but have strong fellowships. None of you guys know what you're talking about. Most U.S. believers know the majority of faithful grads are outside the U.S.
Recommended Posts
Oakspear
When I got out in 2001 there were ten states that had so few people that they had no Limb Coordinator. I'm sure that the process has accelerated since then. North & South Dakota, Nebraska, Mississippi, Vermont & New Hampshire, Delaware - I can't remember the other three.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rejoice
On that Ebay Seller site [selling Cummings Greek Research] they state the following:
Must be someone from the inside, or very close to it.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Fundamentals-of-Greek-Research-WJ-Cummins-The-Way-RARE_W0QQitemZ360184873557QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAntiquarian_Collectible?hash=item53dcb10255&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116
Link to comment
Share on other sites
frank123lol
They(twi)has run a few classes in Mi,looks like 4 in a class .
Pushing service ie disciple,way corps.Looks like they are not using the rev as much.
As in title rev,not revelation.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
These types of threads I find silly.
They usually only look at the United States.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Linda Z
That part of his/her listing would make it seem so, but that info might have been gleaned from various anti-twi sites on the Internet. The fact that he/she says VPW didn't believe in salvation and that once someone dies, that's it, makes me wonder if he/she was ever directly involved.
Okay, will the real EBay seller please stand up if you're here. :)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JustThinking
Good point. I was in during the 80's when references to international folks was more common. Before I left in the 90's, those comments stopped. Come to think of it, with the exception of Australia, I doubt it ever came up on SNS tapes, way mag articles, etc. Do you know if there is anything left of TWI outside the US?
JT
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Even when I was "in" most folk in TWI had no concept of International Outreach. They had no idea where most other countries were. There was a map of the world inset into some oval table in the Auditorium - with some countries not even shown even though there was space to put them.
Hello, hello! There is a world outside the USA, and it's not just for dropping bombs on, either.
The outreach model demanded by TWI didn't really work overseas (come to that, it wasn't so effective in the US, either). Door-knockers and people accosting potential recruits in shopping malls: not quite the European thing.
Most of Europe was "written off" by VPW and/or LCM as being "spiritually dark" because they weren't interested in the high-pressure sales techniques used by TWI.
Guam was counted as an international outreach country but it was really only noticed because US personnel were stationed over there.
Anyway, back to the point: there are still some Way-affiliated fellowships in other countries.
There is also a not insignificant number of splinter groups led by WC or sometimes not even WC. There's quite a brisk "outreach" in hooking these up together, but as individual fellowships or ministries.
There is a surprisingly high number of Wayfers or exWayfers in most European countries; also in some African countries. Some Europeans have set up fellowships or ministries. Some have gone back to mainstream churches.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JustThinking
Twinky,
Thanks for jogging my memory. Now I remember being at HQ for something and seeing flags in the OSC. My "host" told me they represented countries with standing TWI grads. When I started asking questions, it was typical TWI spin. Turns out, a US military person temporarily stationed somewhere got a flag. No outreach, no twig, nothing. Just "Joe Grad" passing through? Well, that's good enough for TWI!
I wonder how long it took a bunch of yokels from Ohio to figure out that Parisians would laugh at them and their sales techniques! Does anyone know how TWI operated in Europe? Was it the same sales model?
JT
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
In the beginning of the 90's it seemed like a lot of the European wayfers were from Africa, particularly Zaire. TWI claimed fellowships in 50 countries at one time. It seems like Africa & South America were the areas where most of these wayfers were located.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Patriot
"...In that light, I've not heard much currently regarding the numbers of people who graduated the Way Corps for a few years. I remember a few years ago, they had about 7 people (most were couples) flanked by all the BOD and other such 'important' people. Did anyone know how many have graduated in the past 2-3 years?"
OK - so I guess the answer to my question is, No - no one knows the #'s for recent Corps graduations. Thanks for all who participated.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TrustAndObey
OK - so I guess the answer to my question is, No - no one knows the #'s for recent Corps graduations. Thanks for all who participated.
...
Patriot,
To answer your curiosity, I looked at my friends mag this afternoon which had a pic of the graduating Corps this summer, Coprs 38 I believe.. And I counted "about" 16 adults (6 kids)..
Hope they wake up soon!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Kevin Fallon
Thanks to someone who is still 'in', I know that there is something going on in Venezuela. Apparently, it is big enough to have a LC or Country Coordinator or whatever they term it now.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JustThinking
Is there still a Family Corps or are the numbers too small to have separate groups? Can you tell how many of the 16 adults are couples?
JT
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheHighWay
JT, if I'm not mistaken they stopped doing separate family corps a number of years back, when they decided to sell the Rome City campus. (sorry, don't remember the year)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Numbers are too small. All are together - it's probably been 10 years now at least. They were all at Gunnison until about 3 yrs ago, now all are in New Knoxville at the HQ.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
lindyhopper
The key here, Kevin, is the part about something "big enough" going on to require a country coordinator. What is the standard? Glad you asked. I met the country coordinator of Germany at the last advanced class special I went to (maybe in 2000). We were on the same airport shuttle. Turns out it is a similar requirement as getting a country's flag at HQ. This guy was corps, perhaps military (don't n but it would have made sense seeing that he was American) and he along with his wife were the country coordinators of Germany. When we asked about how many people/fellowships etc were in Germany he explained it was the two of them and another guy... aaaaaaand that was it! You see all you need to have a country coordinator is to have an active corps grad in that country and BAM they're it!
Oh you've gotta love VWP's vision, NAY, revelation of Word over the World and his preemptive naming of the Way International, even before it was so HUGELY international!
Actually, I know someone who knows someone in what used to be Zaire, now the Democratic Republic of the Congo, and apparently there is a huge number of Wayfer-ish people there, something ridiculous like 50,000 (in part because of the patriarchal society where the family does what the head of the family does or something). Anyway, they apparently are left basically without much interaction with "the root" in NK. So I don't really know if they should still be considered Wayfers but that's what I've heard. I don't know if they get tapes or what.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
I can state, with complete confidence, that they don't get tapes from NK, and they're not "supported"
by NK. The reason is simple. The old saying that "each twig is self-sustaining" means hq never sends
any money out to locales. For hq to send tapes to "Zaire" would be a financial loss to hq.
They won't get enough of a tithe to make it ever worth SENDING.
(The carrying charges and fees would be close to whatever the South Africans could afford to send.)
So, we're talking about people that will never be a profit-source for hq.
When there was a bigger surplus, hq could afford to send surplus PEOPLE there to put together big
meetings and get a certain cachet for the group. However, the powers-that-be care a lot more about
money than about numbers, so Africa has been cut adrift to fend for itself.
Edited by WordWolfLink to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Aw, yes.....Zaire.
Back in the early 80s, twi was courting Zaire with much fervor......Rev. T0m KnVpp was overseeing the African continent, and he (and wife, Marilyn) lived in Africa for about two years.
Rev. Byunga (??) was the country coordinator and spoke on main stage at roa. Andre Z. and Roger L. went into the 12th corps....and after ordinations, returned to Zaire in major leadership roles. With culture and social and economic levels per se, thousands would sign up for twi classes......looking for avenues of opportunity and advancement. Extended families and relatives came pouring into the classes.
More and more, Zaire under Byunga's leadership was breaking away from twi's hq. Byunga could not be reined in.....and he scoffed at their petty policies. Other african corps grads were ordained and were appointed "limb coordinators" over cities in Zaire (iirc). After Cgeer's power-grab in 1986/87......Zaire was rarily talked about in way mag articles.
In the late 90s (??)......Rev. Andre Z@kompanie died. He was a really neat guy. I will always remember him and Roger working at hq during their inrez years......communicating in broken English, talking in French, singing in Kikongo and joking in Lingaula (sp?).
In the end, twi frowned on any work that was moving towards INDEPENDENT WORK. Twi has motives of centralized control, period.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
The international countries all work in some ways independant of NK HQ, especially w/r to money. All ABS stays in the country, rather than all of it being sent to NK and only 25% of it being allocated to the original locations (states) such as happens in the US. International countries all purchase bookstore items from NK rather than in the states the inventory in the bookstore is "fronted" to the states until purchased.
However, with the command and control structure of TWI leadership, they are doing "leadership training" from NK now for all the country coordinators. This is hilarious. Someone who has never dealt with the numbers, the culture, the specific problems of an area is teaching them how they do things in NK and they are supposed to learn from it. All they really learn is how to mostly ignore NK and do their own thing, and send in letters kissing bootie. After all, the $$$ is right there at home and is not controlled.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Yes, international countries work independant of NK....with respect to money.
BUT........THE SIGNING OFFICERS IN CANADA'S DOCUMENTS: 1) Rosalie Rivenbark, 2) Roger Mittler, and 3) Jean Yves-DeLisle
The country coordinator of canada, J0e Pxrry, has a signature listed on the paperwork as well...but not, as "a signing officer." MORE TO THE POINT --- TWI DIRECTORS ARE THE OFFICERS/GUARDIANS OF THE BUSINESS ENTERPRISE, THE CAPITAL, THE MONEY.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
I thought that was how it always has been..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Chockfull, not sure you are right about all the ABS staying in country. I lived in another country and as I recall (though I may be wrong) some of the ABS had to be sent to HQ - not all of it. And some of the ABS that stayed in the country was used to subsidize events for the country believers (that I do know for sure).
But hey it was a long time ago. Things may well have changed. It would be more of a surprise if they hadn't changed...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
HAPe4me
I don't know how many there are now, but I was surprised when I looked at a Google satellite image of the property. There were not many cars there and the grounds looked very deserted (though still well maintained). I never saw the blue painted basketball court before, east of the Jordan bridge. When did that go in?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Billy G
Actually TWI is very upfront in communicating to believers in the us about the International Outreach progress. Most people know how many countries are official (established leadership with trained country coordinators). Those flags do not represent just "Joe Grad" in a military base. The flags represent official countries that meet criteria. There are many other countries that are still "developing" that are not "official" but have strong fellowships. None of you guys know what you're talking about. Most U.S. believers know the majority of faithful grads are outside the U.S.
Edited by Billy GLink to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.