A few weeks ago when we left a church plant, the pastor told me I am diabetic either due to "the fall" or to unconfessed sin. Now I know what he meant by the fall, but "unconfessed sin" I cannot remember hearing explained. Apparently, this is a sin you commit that you (a) don't know is a sin, or (b) know you sinned and are trying to hide it from God, haven't confessed it because you don't want to admit it or think it's all right secondary to living in the grace administration, or what have you. This gentleman seems to think God is crushing me because of some unconfessed sin, and He is crushing me with disease.
I can't think of any Biblical reference for this, and was wondering if anyone else knew.
Thanks
WG
That wasn't a very nice thing to say to you. . . . and even worse. . . . not to explain what he meant. You know the verses in 1 John about confessing sin I am sure. . . . but, you should have asked him what he says when his kid has an earache or his wife a headache. . . . :)
This sort of belief is certainly not exclusive to Christianity.
You will find this thinking is deeply rooted in Eastern religions as well.
"Throughout this process, some traditions (i.e., the Vedanta), believe that God plays some kind of role, for example, as the dispenser of the fruits of karma[12] or as exercising the option to change one's karma in rare instances. In general, followers of Buddhism and many Hindus consider the natural laws of causation sufficient to explain the effects of karma.[13][14][15] Another view holds that a Sadguru, acting on God's behalf, can mitigate or work out some of the karma of the disciple.[16][17][18] However, according to Jainism, neither the God nor the Guru have any role in a person's Karma. A person himself is the sole doer and enjoyer of his karmas and their fruits."
"Though we are neither the absolutely the servants nor the masters of our Karma, it is evident from these counteractive and supportive factors that the fruition of Karma is influenced to some extent by external circumstances, surroundings, personality, individual striving, and so forth.
It is this doctrine of Karma that gives consolation, hope, reliance and moral courage to a Buddhist. When the unexpected happens, and he meets with difficulties, failures, and misfortune, the Buddhist realises that he is reaping what he has sown, and he is wiping off a past debt. Instead of resigning himself, leaving everything to Karma, he makes a strenuous effort to pull the weeds and sow useful seeds in their place, for the future is in his own hands."
WateredGarden, my scripture reference is me. I think the reason for the diabetes is because you have not sent me all of your strawberry jam. While we are at it, how bout that strainer.
Makes just as much sense, right? You know where I am coming from.....XOXO
Well, a point I'd like to make is that Jesus Christ paid for all my sins with His death on the cross. I think this pastor was encouraging me to continue to walk around in guilt and fear. I don't think I want to do that.
Roy, this guy's problem is that he is a Calvinist and believes more what people say about God than he believes God. We left the church plant some months ago and attend another church which we like better.
Kimberly, you're right - this doesn't make a lick of sense. But both this church plant and the one before it seemed to thrive on pointing fingers. I was made to feel second rate and unworthy to so much as sweep the floor after they ran the class that dumped this load of doctrine on me like manure out of a barn.
This guy taught Jonah as evidence of God crushing you until you repent and obey. He scorned anything we said that was different from his own narrow little set of beliefs. He doesn't seem to realize God loves us.
I mentioned last night to Mr. Garden that I wish I had pointed out to this guy that Jesus died for my sins and thus my sins are forgiven, confessed or not confessed, so why would God kick my butt without telling me why. That's like if your kid is sitting at the table quietly doing his homework, and you storm into the room, yank him out of his chair and beat the s#it out of him, then just leave the room without saying anything. Not only are you leaving a bruised, bewildered kid in your wake, but he isn't likely to want to be around you after much of that.
(Of course this guy also told me that comparing God to a human parent is blasphemy; I guess he forgot that Jesus did the same.)
Roy, I'm doing pretty well considering the aftermath of guilt and worry that one experiences after leaving a group like that. Regret - love the people there. I'm getting back to being myself much faster than I did with TWI.
I remember Jesus telling a man he healed after the fact,"Sin no more lest some worse thing come upon you." So while I hold it to be possible that this kind of thing may happen in truth, I hear no truth for you in how this minister talked to you about it.
Jesus first healed the man then most likely told him something that the man himself recognized as true. And as such, Jesus words for that man must have an incredible weight of being true behind them. And whether or not the man sinned again in such a fashion I expect because Jesus was no false prophet that if the man sinned that something worse happened to him.
But this minister's words don't seem any better than the words one may hear from a carnival fortune teller to me. Like a shotgun aimed in your general direct with any and all possibilities that you may even conjecture being the possible culprit. If you hadn't happen to be sitting on some deep, dark, hidden sin he is free to point out that he also said that because of fallen humankind it was inevitable, or just a fancy way of saying, "You were born that way."
I can see why the effects of his words given in such a fashion may be as possibly harmful to you as any of the many, many false sayings given under the guise of spiritual authority as TWI leadership's many, many failings. Maybe the reason why you are recovering from this church better than TWI is because I would be willing to bet that even though this minister's belief system led to such foolish words that the minister and this church in particular do not deceive folks with their manic attempts to magnify insanely all false appearance of their own ruling ministries as TWI leadership cretins have done.
Who knows, maybe this minister may clearly see his own sin someday? HHHMMM I haven't heard anything in particular in your story that would lead me to suspect that this minister was mean or cruel, so I think that I can not find it in me to get as worked up as I can get with TWI and my former splinter group leadership.
No, he's not mean or cruel, but he seems to think God is! He doesn't seem to recognize evil for what it is and thus believes that everything that happens "passes through the hands of God" to receive His approval.
He is young, however, and does not seem to be me to be particularly mature. I would have been happy to discuss more with him, but he was getting worked up and I was NOT going to allow him to put me on the defensive.
As I recall, Jesus told more than one person "go and sin no more" and certainly that would be foolish, not to mention the height of ingratitude, being healed by Jesus Himself and then going right back to what made him sick in the first place.
A few weeks ago when we left a church plant, the pastor told me I am diabetic either due to "the fall" or to unconfessed sin. Now I know what he meant by the fall, but "unconfessed sin" I cannot remember hearing explained. Apparently, this is a sin you commit that you (a) don't know is a sin, or (b) know you sinned and are trying to hide it from God, haven't confessed it because you don't want to admit it or think it's all right secondary to living in the grace administration, or what have you. This gentleman seems to think God is crushing me because of some unconfessed sin, and He is crushing me with disease.
I can't think of any Biblical reference for this, and was wondering if anyone else knew.
Thanks
WG
Watered Garden:
I thought much about the interesting theological enigma you brought up. I realize these things are important because you feel like boxed in with no answer when one seemingly isnt readily there. I had pretty much the same situation arise in my own life, just a short time ago. Not knowing how to solve the problem, I did some more reading, inquiring and came up with what I think is a workable solution. Usually these kind of situations arise because your standing in front of someone who is tying to control manipulate and harm you. I think the minister was wrong wrong wrong for laying a guilt trip like that on you.
John Chapter 9 alludes to a situation pretty much like the one you described, where John 9 says, And his disciples asked him, saying, “ Master, who did sin this man or his parents that he was born blind.” Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned nor his parents, but that the works of God should be manifest in him.” I know at first glance it sounds like a hokey and canned answer, but the truth is some people are alloted more misfortune than others for the simple reason is that God wants his works manifest in them, more than in anyone else. It’s a tough one to hear because when a person is sick they want to be well.
So the grander question is does sin cause all disease? Not ALWAYS (as recorded by John 9) but it certainly causes some disease we know that from the old testament. We also know that sin causes death at least eventually. The question becomes also what is death? Death can be things as small as an incapacity to learn and grow. Furthermore, AND THIS IS MOST IMPORTANT, you said the disease wasnt healed because it was UNCONFESSED SIN. The bible never once indicates that you have to shout your sins from the rooftops in order to get them confessed.(the bible does indicate however that people who refuse the grace and covering of God, will eventually have there sins shouted from the rooftops.) It is, I think, about giving it an honest and sincere effort. Also know that, Its says to confess our faults one to another, but our sins we acknowledge by confessing them to God so as not to repeat ourselves. Thus, I think what you have is a classic case of misunderstanding ,in both the goodness of God, and the diabolical nature of man who wants to embarrass you.
Moreover, there are lots of what the bible calls false teachers, who want to get the goods on people so they want to turn bible believing Christianity into a pile of worms by getting all the goods on someone else. I am not saying this is what this minister was doing, but the fact is you never really know.
And lastly and please don’t take this wrong but I have to mention at a small minimum, what unconfessed sin really is. The bible says that SIN is the transgression of the LAW, Gods’ law not man’s law. The problem in the world is that the world rejects God’s Law,. thus they have a skewed idea of what sin really is. Like in the Old Testament, there are all kinds, all manner of things that we as people don’t really understand. People don’t understand Gods law because they reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It’s pretty clear from the Apostle Pauls writings, that the fullness of the law, the revealing of the Law, the complete understanding of the law, is made or revealed in the person of Jesus Christ. So that, if anyone does not hear Jesus’ voice they are not his sheep, etc etc and eventually they can never come to know the finer aspects of the Old Testament Law.
I understand Watered Garden, exactly what your thinking. Your thinking that someone such as myself, couldn’t possibly understand the gravity of your situation. I am not trying to patronize you to ‘get you on my side.’ I just want to see Watered Garden forget about things which God is doing away with, mainly God abolished the Law for righteousness in the person of Jesus Christ. Does that make sense, I hope so. The subject that you bring up Watered Garden is, I think, so lengthy and deep that one would need a library to get to the bottom of it all, because every person is just way too individual.
I hope that this in some small way contributed to what you are trying to get figured out. And, I am deeply sorry if I didn’t go into this in great enough length, but I havent been feeling all that well myself lately, (been a little sick) and I am really starting to run out of capacity to help people all that much. I am running out of gas Watered Garden because I am getting overwhelmed by to many things for me to get done. I think, working to much, is a disease also. Its hard to stop and a person doesnt want to because the needs of others and myself are just sometimes too great.
Also know that I could pile on story after story about someone who is or got sick. I mean, I have had a daughter who had Luekiema, a son who is now a substance abuser, and a wife who has chronic kindney problems, fibermyalgia, migrane headaches, fallopian tube problems. My wife was hospitalized in a hospital bed, almost 50 times in our first 8 -10 years of marriage. Now I am not counting ER visits or Doc visits I am talking about in pateint stays, wherein, she cussed and swore at the nurses, pulled out her IV’s basically did everything possible to make her own situation untenable. Anyways, to complete the story, I used to think that all this happened to me because I had unconfessed sin. All of that changed for me when I realized I didn’t do things to cause all the chaos. Like you, I always had someone standing around me, thinking that I did something to make all of this happen. If you want to know why these situations happen, I believe you have to read and understand the book of Job, and what Job’s fourth friend, Elihu said to Job. Now I realize when your suffering this is a small consolation, but I don’t know, if I could have made it or continued without the book of Job, because it enlightened me to the reason behind human suffering. Perhaps this is why VPW was so big on ripping up the book of Job, because he simply didn’t want to deal with or permit the concept of human suffering, that it had any intrinsic worth, into his own misconstrued idea of what people need to grow in life. There are also somepeople who make a great big deal out of understanding the bible, as if it was that difficult. It is so remarkably easy to understand that it even has a covenant called the SALT COVENENT, a couple of sentence covenant which simply means have a little salt in yourselves as in honesty and truthfulness. (Again, I am not saying this is you, I just bring these things up because of violent sick men, who would pervert the simplicity of the gospel.)
Of course the bible has a profoundly simple message, which is why I mentioned the Salt Covenant. There are those who would like to make it deliberately complex and obtuse. They like to make it deliberately complex because they don’t want to be responsible for the simple message. I have said this repeatedly. People go to college to learn mighty things, then, they ought not have any complaint that the bible is difficult at all, because by there own educating they have indicated that they are plenty smart, to know exactly what the bible says. This is why Jesus commanded that the gospel be preached throughout the world, so that, nobody could have a right to complain that they never knew what that message was. The problem for people like John Calvin and his initiated flock always was, he ran out of space. He ran out of space so he had to make it deliberately complex so that he didn’t have to obey it. Doctor Weirdo, VPW, pretty much was of that same order and did the same thing.
Lastly, as I am sure you are aware, there are some people in this life who when they open up the bible, about as far as they go with it is too break a fingernail with it. I know that is NOT u. I know that is not you because when someone spends as much time as you have trying to figure all this out it means that you are sincere and honest with yourself. As Mr Pmosh would understand,I am NOT trying to patronize you either Watered Garde, (with apologies to Mr Pmosh, I did not mean to steal and run away with your concept.) Obviously, I stand to gain nothing in this life, by trying to tell you what I think in an honest way. Anyway, I hope this helps at least a tad.
Oh, and thank you so much for the compliment on the Calvinist thread, Watered Garden, I am glad you found that thread helpful. It’s about the fact that Calvinists and there “initiated followers” , fail to outline exactly what sin is. They don’t define it because they do not wish to deal with it, at least not in the way that God demands it be accounted for. When I came back to the Café, I was a little skitish about talking to you. I was skittish because some Calvinists are around and I thought you might be one.
One other story you might find interesting. My own mother in law, has had metastatic breast cancer for 19 years, was given only 1 year to live. She is alive today. She is one of those faith principal type of people, she kind of believes (at least I think) that her cancer comes back from time to time, so that she can confound all the Doctors as to how she always survives. Not a calling that anybody should want, but one that she does. She is a miracle a day. Now I don’t know about her unconfessed sin, and she is kind of bossy so that I am sure she has her own misconstrued things. But one thing, she never really gets wrong is the basis of her own personal healing. She just kind of runs around at 70 some years of age, saying by his stripes I am healed, and it never misses a beat to really work for her. She is sort of like a real time sermon, about healing, in that, everybody who watches how she stays alive, is simply puzzled and marvel at the prospect of it.
John Chapter 9 alludes to a situation pretty much like the one you described, where John 9 says, And his disciples asked him, saying, “ Master, who did sin this man or his parents that he was born blind.” Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned nor his parents, but that the works of God should be manifest in him.” I know at first glance it sounds like a hokey and canned answer, It’s a tough one to hear because when a person is sick they want to be well. but the truth is some people are alloted more misfortune than others for the simple reason is that God wants his works manifest in them, more than in anyone else.
I'm curious how you reconcile this with the scripture that says God is not a respecter of persons. (ie: treats everyone equally). I really don't believe your interpretation of that passage is accurate. What you've stated is a Calvinist approach to pre-destiny
I'm curious how you reconcile this with the scripture that says God is not a respecter of persons. (ie: treats everyone equally). I really don't believe your interpretation of that passage is accurate. What you've stated is a Calvinist approach to pre-destiny
Peoples calling and election are NOT one and the same as someones predestination. The word of truth is very clear on this. This is why I gave you the Antidote serum for Calvinism which is II Peter 1:10 which says: Wherefore the rather brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure for if you do these things you shall never fall.
I never said God was a respector of persons, God is a respector of faith and those who love him and want to walk in his ways, do not turn aside to nonsense, because they have a certain amount of fear of missing Gods plans in them. Calvinism tries to make a way to God without having to do even one thing, the requirement is to make your calling and election sure so that one is not always falling down.
I just knew that I shouldnt' have come back here talking about Calvinism. Because its always the same rhubarb, the same shill, the same phony lies. I cannot be anymore clear about it than that.
It is not possible to be anymore clear on the topic than this. I started an entire thread dedicated to discussing the Calvinist matter. It was addressed everywhich way possible, with me in a clown suit, puppet style, everywhich way someone could possibly discuss and understand the matter, therefore I am finished discussing the matter. You have to realize also it is about ignorance,WILL FULL IGNORANCEII PETER 3:5 "FOR THIS THEY WILLINGLY ARE IGNORANT OF, THAT BY THE WORD OF GOD THE HEAVENS WERE OF OLD AND THE EARTH STANDING OUT OF THE WATER AND IN THE WATER. This type of ignorance is basically about ANYONE WHO refuses to acknowledge that God (who is the Word) , by the word of God, created all things.And we know that from John 1:1 In the beginnning was the word and the word was............etc etc. Everyone who refuses = Calvinists, Atheists the heathen etc etc.
And now, because I asked you to show how these scriptures can be harmonized, you've decided to take your ball and go home. I'm not sure how that will solve anything but at least you'll still have your ball.
sky4it, I disagree, it is always possible to be more clear if one or more do not understand; at least it's helpful and hoped that if someone doesn't understand your point that you'd at least attempt to do so.
I appreciate Watered Garden's points in that if one feels bullied, it's not for me or anyone to say s/he wasn't bullied.
When my youngest child was threatened in her middle school I certainly considered that "bullying" but met with only resistance from Admin at her school, other parents, even my peers and it occured to me rather quickly that, of course, they couldn't stand up next to me and hollar as loudly as I, since they'd not seen it or experienced it themselves with their own children.
sky4it, I disagree, it is always possible to be more clear if one or more do not understand; at least it's helpful and hoped that if someone doesn't understand your point that you'd at least attempt to do so.
The Calvin thread, is me trying to explain WHY it is there is nothing to understand about Calvin because it is nonsense. Point #2 Its very very clear, that truth stands on its own merit, neither does the facts or the truth come up for VOTE to determine wether it is the truth or facts. That sounds like something Obama would employ against the gospel, you know take a Vote on what is the truth and facts and what is not. A vote is about what people want, not about what they are entitled too in there own clever manipulating of the facts. It's about greed Shellon, nothing more or less. I have made all the attempts any reasonable person can make to dispell and dislodge Calvinism. The bible is really clear on the topic, if someone wants to believe an error, if someone wants to be ignorant let them be ignorant. Calvinism doesn't want to go away, because it wants to practice the gospel in a way it wasn't intended. The whole entire point of Calvinism is to manipulate facts and the truth in order to manipulate God. The really plain part about all this Shellon, is that it is NOT me who has to suffer or should suffer for others wanting Calvinism, its just like The Way International, the facts come back to bite those who didn't want them, thus your argument is not with me, it is with them.
I appreciate Watered Garden's points in that if one feels bullied, it's not for me or anyone to say s/he wasn't bullied.
I was just trying to help Watered Garden because I believe she is sincere, and honest with herself. There are Calvinists that are the uninitiated ones, they dont understand what it is they are involved in. They are the ones who wander around in different campgrounds, typically knowing way more than anyone around them, who know one else wants to listen too. God puts them there so that Calvinists can see what a real Christian looks like. Now it might be that Watered Garden has me fooled too, if her story isnt real, if she made up part of it. But i am just relying on the things she said, because I have known people like her, who have done like her in the same situation.
Thank you for your reply to me, sky4it, in attempt(s) to help me to understand your point(s)
I, however, do not have an arguement with you or Calvinism or anyone/thing else, truly I don't.
My point was simply that we can't really know another's experience, therefore I don't believe it fair for us to expound on them our own opinion.
Now, having said that, I do understand this is a public forum where we all tell our stories if we so desire and we have to understand that we tell it with the reality that maybe noone will believe it; it's a given with the medium such as this.
We have to, at some point however, believe the person has his/her right to say it. If we choose to be here and choose to read and consume at all another's story, we take it at that and hopefully discuss.
Even Jeff, whom I highly respect, made suggestion that he didn't see it in the same light as WG stated it. That doesn't mean it didn't happen to her nor does it make Jeff inaccurate in his assumptions or points any more that WG.
It's great that we CAN discuss and disagree and even digress when necessary.
My point was simply that we can't really know another's experience, therefore I don't believe it fair for us to expound on them our own opinion.
And I don't disagree with this one bit Shellon, in fact I never did. And you are 100 percent correct in that, what anothers experience is, at times the actual facts differ from what we can reasonably know, which is why judgement is best left at the seat of Christ and God.
Its always will be, hard to communicate with people if we dont have the facts balanced with the experience that they suggest. But the one thing that is great about people at GS, is that many times, too many people here were bushwacked by people like VPW, and they dont want to repeat the experience, so all in all many people here simply cannot tolerate deceit, because it has damaged them way too much. It provides for a much better dialogue in honesty.
Anyway, Shellon, I didn't even want to touch the Watered Garden thing, because I cannot reasonably interpet what someone else's motives are, due in large part to some of the junk that has been going on around of late.
Anyway appreciate your reply and thanks for keeping it civil, which is about the only way things ever get resolved for the better anyway. :)
No, he's not mean or cruel, but he seems to think God is! He doesn't seem to recognize evil for what it is and thus believes that everything that happens "passes through the hands of God" to receive His approval.
He is young, however, and does not seem to be me to be particularly mature. I would have been happy to discuss more with him, but he was getting worked up and I was NOT going to allow him to put me on the defensive.
As I recall, Jesus told more than one person "go and sin no more" and certainly that would be foolish, not to mention the height of ingratitude, being healed by Jesus Himself and then going right back to what made him sick in the first place.
WG
Too bad it worked that way for you W.G. I don't have any reason to doubt your assessment of the minister.
But I do regret that your experience in that church was still something that you had to recover from, even if it wasn't as bad as your TWI aftermath.
I really like reading John Piper. . . . especially his work on the attributes of God. Seems to me he knows the Lord and well. . . . . . I love listening to Matt Chandler. . . . great preacher. . . . and just because they are both Calvinist doesn't mean I can't learn from them.
Matt Chandler is friends with Mark Driscoll, although I can't figure out why. . . . but, nothing like him. I love RC Sproul, he is a brilliant man. . . . do I believe everything he says without question? No. . . . but, I do learn from him and benefit from his teaching.
John MacArthur mostly scares me.
I enjoy reading Reformed Theology and although I don't get the whole predestination thing. . . . I still appreciate the high view of God they hold.
Many of the New Calvinist preachers really know God. . . . I wouldn't ever declare them not initiated.
Peoples' opinions about God are sometimes wonderful, sometimes not. I'm sure the young pastor I mentioned reads every one of the authors you do. He is a staunch, devoted, Reformed Calvinist who is convinced that Mark Driscoll is the greatest man of God alive today, much as in the early 1970s many of us were convinced that VPW was the greatest man of God alive for that day.
That was another factor in leaving the church plant. I've seen what idolizing an authority figure like that does to idealistic young men. It was not pretty then and it is not pretty now.
I am absolutely burned out to the max from having this stuff crammed down my throat or thrown at me like cow pies. I had TWI to convince me I was totally useless, utterly worthless, definitely second rate because I'm a lowly female, and all that other happy BS. I don't need to hear it again from Driscoll, McArthur, Piper, or John Calvin himself for that matter. I am a child of God with the power of Christ in me and on me. Period. I answer to the Lord Jesus Christ, not that two-bit, smug, holier than thou know-it-all kid preacher who wouldn't know how to pastor God's people if Paul himself came down from heaven to show him.
Don't hold back WG. . . . tell me how you really feel. I hope you pray for this two-bit, smug, holier than thou know-it-all kid preacher who wouldn't know how to pastor God's people if Paul himself came down from heaven to show him.. . . . if he is caught up in Driscoll mania. . . . he needs it.
Look for him somewhere other than the Bible, someplace other than the church or books about religion. Look for him in a sunset or the changing seasons. Listen for Him in a songbird's melody or a child's laughter. Drink in the flavor of crisp autumn air or inhale the fragrance of newly mowed hay. Feel His presence in the soft texture of a newborn's skin. Look for him by yourself, independently, without someone pointing you to the place they think you might find Him. Look for Him.
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T-Bone
Good stuff Waysider & Sirguessalot! This has been an interesting thread. I’ve followed it but haven’t had anything to post. I guess W & S’s posts jarred something in my head – so here I am
sirguessalot
i agree, in part...but for what its worth...it seems that... "somewhere other than the bible" is NOT omnipresent "someplace other than the church or books about religion" is NOT omnipresent "witho
sky4it
And I don't disagree with this one bit Shellon, in fact I never did. And you are 100 percent correct in that, what anothers experience is, at times the actual facts differ from what we can reasonably
geisha779
That wasn't a very nice thing to say to you. . . . and even worse. . . . not to explain what he meant. You know the verses in 1 John about confessing sin I am sure. . . . but, you should have asked him what he says when his kid has an earache or his wife a headache. . . . :)
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waysider
This sort of belief is certainly not exclusive to Christianity.
You will find this thinking is deeply rooted in Eastern religions as well.
"Throughout this process, some traditions (i.e., the Vedanta), believe that God plays some kind of role, for example, as the dispenser of the fruits of karma[12] or as exercising the option to change one's karma in rare instances. In general, followers of Buddhism and many Hindus consider the natural laws of causation sufficient to explain the effects of karma.[13][14][15] Another view holds that a Sadguru, acting on God's behalf, can mitigate or work out some of the karma of the disciple.[16][17][18] However, according to Jainism, neither the God nor the Guru have any role in a person's Karma. A person himself is the sole doer and enjoyer of his karmas and their fruits."
Karma
**********************************************************
"Though we are neither the absolutely the servants nor the masters of our Karma, it is evident from these counteractive and supportive factors that the fruition of Karma is influenced to some extent by external circumstances, surroundings, personality, individual striving, and so forth.
It is this doctrine of Karma that gives consolation, hope, reliance and moral courage to a Buddhist. When the unexpected happens, and he meets with difficulties, failures, and misfortune, the Buddhist realises that he is reaping what he has sown, and he is wiping off a past debt. Instead of resigning himself, leaving everything to Karma, he makes a strenuous effort to pull the weeds and sow useful seeds in their place, for the future is in his own hands."
Basic Buddhism
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Watered Garden
I had a WOW sister who drove a Karma Ghiaa.
WG
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year2027
God first
Hi Watered Garden
the man is a fool because God would tell you first
he just does like something you said
that happen me a lot because I say something to make a point
you would think that people know me better than that
so I would let him talk if he will
he tell you the problem and you find that its his problem
I believe he the one with the sin
but if you decide not to go anymore that might me the right to do
love Roy
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kimberly
WateredGarden, my scripture reference is me. I think the reason for the diabetes is because you have not sent me all of your strawberry jam. While we are at it, how bout that strainer.
Makes just as much sense, right? You know where I am coming from.....XOXO
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Watered Garden
Well, a point I'd like to make is that Jesus Christ paid for all my sins with His death on the cross. I think this pastor was encouraging me to continue to walk around in guilt and fear. I don't think I want to do that.
Roy, this guy's problem is that he is a Calvinist and believes more what people say about God than he believes God. We left the church plant some months ago and attend another church which we like better.
Kimberly, you're right - this doesn't make a lick of sense. But both this church plant and the one before it seemed to thrive on pointing fingers. I was made to feel second rate and unworthy to so much as sweep the floor after they ran the class that dumped this load of doctrine on me like manure out of a barn.
This guy taught Jonah as evidence of God crushing you until you repent and obey. He scorned anything we said that was different from his own narrow little set of beliefs. He doesn't seem to realize God loves us.
I mentioned last night to Mr. Garden that I wish I had pointed out to this guy that Jesus died for my sins and thus my sins are forgiven, confessed or not confessed, so why would God kick my butt without telling me why. That's like if your kid is sitting at the table quietly doing his homework, and you storm into the room, yank him out of his chair and beat the s#it out of him, then just leave the room without saying anything. Not only are you leaving a bruised, bewildered kid in your wake, but he isn't likely to want to be around you after much of that.
(Of course this guy also told me that comparing God to a human parent is blasphemy; I guess he forgot that Jesus did the same.)
WG
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year2027
God first
hi Watered Garden
i am glad you left because i know is a big step
love Roy
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Watered Garden
Roy, I'm doing pretty well considering the aftermath of guilt and worry that one experiences after leaving a group like that. Regret - love the people there. I'm getting back to being myself much faster than I did with TWI.
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JeffSjo
Hi WG,
I remember Jesus telling a man he healed after the fact,"Sin no more lest some worse thing come upon you." So while I hold it to be possible that this kind of thing may happen in truth, I hear no truth for you in how this minister talked to you about it.
Jesus first healed the man then most likely told him something that the man himself recognized as true. And as such, Jesus words for that man must have an incredible weight of being true behind them. And whether or not the man sinned again in such a fashion I expect because Jesus was no false prophet that if the man sinned that something worse happened to him.
But this minister's words don't seem any better than the words one may hear from a carnival fortune teller to me. Like a shotgun aimed in your general direct with any and all possibilities that you may even conjecture being the possible culprit. If you hadn't happen to be sitting on some deep, dark, hidden sin he is free to point out that he also said that because of fallen humankind it was inevitable, or just a fancy way of saying, "You were born that way."
I can see why the effects of his words given in such a fashion may be as possibly harmful to you as any of the many, many false sayings given under the guise of spiritual authority as TWI leadership's many, many failings. Maybe the reason why you are recovering from this church better than TWI is because I would be willing to bet that even though this minister's belief system led to such foolish words that the minister and this church in particular do not deceive folks with their manic attempts to magnify insanely all false appearance of their own ruling ministries as TWI leadership cretins have done.
Who knows, maybe this minister may clearly see his own sin someday? HHHMMM I haven't heard anything in particular in your story that would lead me to suspect that this minister was mean or cruel, so I think that I can not find it in me to get as worked up as I can get with TWI and my former splinter group leadership.
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Watered Garden
No, he's not mean or cruel, but he seems to think God is! He doesn't seem to recognize evil for what it is and thus believes that everything that happens "passes through the hands of God" to receive His approval.
He is young, however, and does not seem to be me to be particularly mature. I would have been happy to discuss more with him, but he was getting worked up and I was NOT going to allow him to put me on the defensive.
As I recall, Jesus told more than one person "go and sin no more" and certainly that would be foolish, not to mention the height of ingratitude, being healed by Jesus Himself and then going right back to what made him sick in the first place.
WG
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sky4it
Watered Garden:
I thought much about the interesting theological enigma you brought up. I realize these things are important because you feel like boxed in with no answer when one seemingly isnt readily there. I had pretty much the same situation arise in my own life, just a short time ago. Not knowing how to solve the problem, I did some more reading, inquiring and came up with what I think is a workable solution. Usually these kind of situations arise because your standing in front of someone who is tying to control manipulate and harm you. I think the minister was wrong wrong wrong for laying a guilt trip like that on you.
John Chapter 9 alludes to a situation pretty much like the one you described, where John 9 says, And his disciples asked him, saying, “ Master, who did sin this man or his parents that he was born blind.” Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned nor his parents, but that the works of God should be manifest in him.” I know at first glance it sounds like a hokey and canned answer, but the truth is some people are alloted more misfortune than others for the simple reason is that God wants his works manifest in them, more than in anyone else. It’s a tough one to hear because when a person is sick they want to be well.
So the grander question is does sin cause all disease? Not ALWAYS (as recorded by John 9) but it certainly causes some disease we know that from the old testament. We also know that sin causes death at least eventually. The question becomes also what is death? Death can be things as small as an incapacity to learn and grow. Furthermore, AND THIS IS MOST IMPORTANT, you said the disease wasnt healed because it was UNCONFESSED SIN. The bible never once indicates that you have to shout your sins from the rooftops in order to get them confessed.(the bible does indicate however that people who refuse the grace and covering of God, will eventually have there sins shouted from the rooftops.) It is, I think, about giving it an honest and sincere effort. Also know that, Its says to confess our faults one to another, but our sins we acknowledge by confessing them to God so as not to repeat ourselves. Thus, I think what you have is a classic case of misunderstanding ,in both the goodness of God, and the diabolical nature of man who wants to embarrass you.
Moreover, there are lots of what the bible calls false teachers, who want to get the goods on people so they want to turn bible believing Christianity into a pile of worms by getting all the goods on someone else. I am not saying this is what this minister was doing, but the fact is you never really know.
And lastly and please don’t take this wrong but I have to mention at a small minimum, what unconfessed sin really is. The bible says that SIN is the transgression of the LAW, Gods’ law not man’s law. The problem in the world is that the world rejects God’s Law,. thus they have a skewed idea of what sin really is. Like in the Old Testament, there are all kinds, all manner of things that we as people don’t really understand. People don’t understand Gods law because they reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It’s pretty clear from the Apostle Pauls writings, that the fullness of the law, the revealing of the Law, the complete understanding of the law, is made or revealed in the person of Jesus Christ. So that, if anyone does not hear Jesus’ voice they are not his sheep, etc etc and eventually they can never come to know the finer aspects of the Old Testament Law.
I understand Watered Garden, exactly what your thinking. Your thinking that someone such as myself, couldn’t possibly understand the gravity of your situation. I am not trying to patronize you to ‘get you on my side.’ I just want to see Watered Garden forget about things which God is doing away with, mainly God abolished the Law for righteousness in the person of Jesus Christ. Does that make sense, I hope so. The subject that you bring up Watered Garden is, I think, so lengthy and deep that one would need a library to get to the bottom of it all, because every person is just way too individual.
I hope that this in some small way contributed to what you are trying to get figured out. And, I am deeply sorry if I didn’t go into this in great enough length, but I havent been feeling all that well myself lately, (been a little sick) and I am really starting to run out of capacity to help people all that much. I am running out of gas Watered Garden because I am getting overwhelmed by to many things for me to get done. I think, working to much, is a disease also. Its hard to stop and a person doesnt want to because the needs of others and myself are just sometimes too great.
Also know that I could pile on story after story about someone who is or got sick. I mean, I have had a daughter who had Luekiema, a son who is now a substance abuser, and a wife who has chronic kindney problems, fibermyalgia, migrane headaches, fallopian tube problems. My wife was hospitalized in a hospital bed, almost 50 times in our first 8 -10 years of marriage. Now I am not counting ER visits or Doc visits I am talking about in pateint stays, wherein, she cussed and swore at the nurses, pulled out her IV’s basically did everything possible to make her own situation untenable. Anyways, to complete the story, I used to think that all this happened to me because I had unconfessed sin. All of that changed for me when I realized I didn’t do things to cause all the chaos. Like you, I always had someone standing around me, thinking that I did something to make all of this happen. If you want to know why these situations happen, I believe you have to read and understand the book of Job, and what Job’s fourth friend, Elihu said to Job. Now I realize when your suffering this is a small consolation, but I don’t know, if I could have made it or continued without the book of Job, because it enlightened me to the reason behind human suffering. Perhaps this is why VPW was so big on ripping up the book of Job, because he simply didn’t want to deal with or permit the concept of human suffering, that it had any intrinsic worth, into his own misconstrued idea of what people need to grow in life. There are also somepeople who make a great big deal out of understanding the bible, as if it was that difficult. It is so remarkably easy to understand that it even has a covenant called the SALT COVENENT, a couple of sentence covenant which simply means have a little salt in yourselves as in honesty and truthfulness. (Again, I am not saying this is you, I just bring these things up because of violent sick men, who would pervert the simplicity of the gospel.)
Of course the bible has a profoundly simple message, which is why I mentioned the Salt Covenant. There are those who would like to make it deliberately complex and obtuse. They like to make it deliberately complex because they don’t want to be responsible for the simple message. I have said this repeatedly. People go to college to learn mighty things, then, they ought not have any complaint that the bible is difficult at all, because by there own educating they have indicated that they are plenty smart, to know exactly what the bible says. This is why Jesus commanded that the gospel be preached throughout the world, so that, nobody could have a right to complain that they never knew what that message was. The problem for people like John Calvin and his initiated flock always was, he ran out of space. He ran out of space so he had to make it deliberately complex so that he didn’t have to obey it. Doctor Weirdo, VPW, pretty much was of that same order and did the same thing.
Lastly, as I am sure you are aware, there are some people in this life who when they open up the bible, about as far as they go with it is too break a fingernail with it. I know that is NOT u. I know that is not you because when someone spends as much time as you have trying to figure all this out it means that you are sincere and honest with yourself. As Mr Pmosh would understand,I am NOT trying to patronize you either Watered Garde, (with apologies to Mr Pmosh, I did not mean to steal and run away with your concept.) Obviously, I stand to gain nothing in this life, by trying to tell you what I think in an honest way. Anyway, I hope this helps at least a tad.
Oh, and thank you so much for the compliment on the Calvinist thread, Watered Garden, I am glad you found that thread helpful. It’s about the fact that Calvinists and there “initiated followers” , fail to outline exactly what sin is. They don’t define it because they do not wish to deal with it, at least not in the way that God demands it be accounted for. When I came back to the Café, I was a little skitish about talking to you. I was skittish because some Calvinists are around and I thought you might be one.
One other story you might find interesting. My own mother in law, has had metastatic breast cancer for 19 years, was given only 1 year to live. She is alive today. She is one of those faith principal type of people, she kind of believes (at least I think) that her cancer comes back from time to time, so that she can confound all the Doctors as to how she always survives. Not a calling that anybody should want, but one that she does. She is a miracle a day. Now I don’t know about her unconfessed sin, and she is kind of bossy so that I am sure she has her own misconstrued things. But one thing, she never really gets wrong is the basis of her own personal healing. She just kind of runs around at 70 some years of age, saying by his stripes I am healed, and it never misses a beat to really work for her. She is sort of like a real time sermon, about healing, in that, everybody who watches how she stays alive, is simply puzzled and marvel at the prospect of it.
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waysider
I'm curious how you reconcile this with the scripture that says God is not a respecter of persons. (ie: treats everyone equally). I really don't believe your interpretation of that passage is accurate. What you've stated is a Calvinist approach to pre-destiny
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sky4it
Peoples calling and election are NOT one and the same as someones predestination. The word of truth is very clear on this. This is why I gave you the Antidote serum for Calvinism which is II Peter 1:10 which says: Wherefore the rather brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure for if you do these things you shall never fall.
I never said God was a respector of persons, God is a respector of faith and those who love him and want to walk in his ways, do not turn aside to nonsense, because they have a certain amount of fear of missing Gods plans in them. Calvinism tries to make a way to God without having to do even one thing, the requirement is to make your calling and election sure so that one is not always falling down.
I just knew that I shouldnt' have come back here talking about Calvinism. Because its always the same rhubarb, the same shill, the same phony lies. I cannot be anymore clear about it than that.
It is not possible to be anymore clear on the topic than this. I started an entire thread dedicated to discussing the Calvinist matter. It was addressed everywhich way possible, with me in a clown suit, puppet style, everywhich way someone could possibly discuss and understand the matter, therefore I am finished discussing the matter. You have to realize also it is about ignorance,WILL FULL IGNORANCEII PETER 3:5 "FOR THIS THEY WILLINGLY ARE IGNORANT OF, THAT BY THE WORD OF GOD THE HEAVENS WERE OF OLD AND THE EARTH STANDING OUT OF THE WATER AND IN THE WATER. This type of ignorance is basically about ANYONE WHO refuses to acknowledge that God (who is the Word) , by the word of God, created all things.And we know that from John 1:1 In the beginnning was the word and the word was............etc etc. Everyone who refuses = Calvinists, Atheists the heathen etc etc.
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waysider
Gee, you don't have to call me "ignorant".
Not that it bothers me all that much.
I've certainly been called much worse.
And now, because I asked you to show how these scriptures can be harmonized, you've decided to take your ball and go home. I'm not sure how that will solve anything but at least you'll still have your ball.
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Shellon
sky4it, I disagree, it is always possible to be more clear if one or more do not understand; at least it's helpful and hoped that if someone doesn't understand your point that you'd at least attempt to do so.
I appreciate Watered Garden's points in that if one feels bullied, it's not for me or anyone to say s/he wasn't bullied.
When my youngest child was threatened in her middle school I certainly considered that "bullying" but met with only resistance from Admin at her school, other parents, even my peers and it occured to me rather quickly that, of course, they couldn't stand up next to me and hollar as loudly as I, since they'd not seen it or experienced it themselves with their own children.
That didn't make it untrue for mine.
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sky4it
The Calvin thread, is me trying to explain WHY it is there is nothing to understand about Calvin because it is nonsense. Point #2 Its very very clear, that truth stands on its own merit, neither does the facts or the truth come up for VOTE to determine wether it is the truth or facts. That sounds like something Obama would employ against the gospel, you know take a Vote on what is the truth and facts and what is not. A vote is about what people want, not about what they are entitled too in there own clever manipulating of the facts. It's about greed Shellon, nothing more or less. I have made all the attempts any reasonable person can make to dispell and dislodge Calvinism. The bible is really clear on the topic, if someone wants to believe an error, if someone wants to be ignorant let them be ignorant. Calvinism doesn't want to go away, because it wants to practice the gospel in a way it wasn't intended. The whole entire point of Calvinism is to manipulate facts and the truth in order to manipulate God. The really plain part about all this Shellon, is that it is NOT me who has to suffer or should suffer for others wanting Calvinism, its just like The Way International, the facts come back to bite those who didn't want them, thus your argument is not with me, it is with them.
I was just trying to help Watered Garden because I believe she is sincere, and honest with herself. There are Calvinists that are the uninitiated ones, they dont understand what it is they are involved in. They are the ones who wander around in different campgrounds, typically knowing way more than anyone around them, who know one else wants to listen too. God puts them there so that Calvinists can see what a real Christian looks like. Now it might be that Watered Garden has me fooled too, if her story isnt real, if she made up part of it. But i am just relying on the things she said, because I have known people like her, who have done like her in the same situation.
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Shellon
Thank you for your reply to me, sky4it, in attempt(s) to help me to understand your point(s)
I, however, do not have an arguement with you or Calvinism or anyone/thing else, truly I don't.
My point was simply that we can't really know another's experience, therefore I don't believe it fair for us to expound on them our own opinion.
Now, having said that, I do understand this is a public forum where we all tell our stories if we so desire and we have to understand that we tell it with the reality that maybe noone will believe it; it's a given with the medium such as this.
We have to, at some point however, believe the person has his/her right to say it. If we choose to be here and choose to read and consume at all another's story, we take it at that and hopefully discuss.
Even Jeff, whom I highly respect, made suggestion that he didn't see it in the same light as WG stated it. That doesn't mean it didn't happen to her nor does it make Jeff inaccurate in his assumptions or points any more that WG.
It's great that we CAN discuss and disagree and even digress when necessary.
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sky4it
And I don't disagree with this one bit Shellon, in fact I never did. And you are 100 percent correct in that, what anothers experience is, at times the actual facts differ from what we can reasonably know, which is why judgement is best left at the seat of Christ and God.
Its always will be, hard to communicate with people if we dont have the facts balanced with the experience that they suggest. But the one thing that is great about people at GS, is that many times, too many people here were bushwacked by people like VPW, and they dont want to repeat the experience, so all in all many people here simply cannot tolerate deceit, because it has damaged them way too much. It provides for a much better dialogue in honesty.
Anyway, Shellon, I didn't even want to touch the Watered Garden thing, because I cannot reasonably interpet what someone else's motives are, due in large part to some of the junk that has been going on around of late.
Anyway appreciate your reply and thanks for keeping it civil, which is about the only way things ever get resolved for the better anyway. :)
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Shellon
Ah, yeah, now we have it understood between us both; I like that, thank you
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JeffSjo
Too bad it worked that way for you W.G. I don't have any reason to doubt your assessment of the minister.
But I do regret that your experience in that church was still something that you had to recover from, even if it wasn't as bad as your TWI aftermath.
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geisha779
I really like reading John Piper. . . . especially his work on the attributes of God. Seems to me he knows the Lord and well. . . . . . I love listening to Matt Chandler. . . . great preacher. . . . and just because they are both Calvinist doesn't mean I can't learn from them.
Matt Chandler is friends with Mark Driscoll, although I can't figure out why. . . . but, nothing like him. I love RC Sproul, he is a brilliant man. . . . do I believe everything he says without question? No. . . . but, I do learn from him and benefit from his teaching.
John MacArthur mostly scares me.
I enjoy reading Reformed Theology and although I don't get the whole predestination thing. . . . I still appreciate the high view of God they hold.
Many of the New Calvinist preachers really know God. . . . I wouldn't ever declare them not initiated.
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Watered Garden
I enjoy reading my Bible.
Peoples' opinions about God are sometimes wonderful, sometimes not. I'm sure the young pastor I mentioned reads every one of the authors you do. He is a staunch, devoted, Reformed Calvinist who is convinced that Mark Driscoll is the greatest man of God alive today, much as in the early 1970s many of us were convinced that VPW was the greatest man of God alive for that day.
That was another factor in leaving the church plant. I've seen what idolizing an authority figure like that does to idealistic young men. It was not pretty then and it is not pretty now.
I am absolutely burned out to the max from having this stuff crammed down my throat or thrown at me like cow pies. I had TWI to convince me I was totally useless, utterly worthless, definitely second rate because I'm a lowly female, and all that other happy BS. I don't need to hear it again from Driscoll, McArthur, Piper, or John Calvin himself for that matter. I am a child of God with the power of Christ in me and on me. Period. I answer to the Lord Jesus Christ, not that two-bit, smug, holier than thou know-it-all kid preacher who wouldn't know how to pastor God's people if Paul himself came down from heaven to show him.
WG
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geisha779
Don't hold back WG. . . . tell me how you really feel. I hope you pray for this two-bit, smug, holier than thou know-it-all kid preacher who wouldn't know how to pastor God's people if Paul himself came down from heaven to show him.. . . . if he is caught up in Driscoll mania. . . . he needs it.
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waysider
Isn't God supposed to be omnipresent?
Look for him somewhere other than the Bible, someplace other than the church or books about religion. Look for him in a sunset or the changing seasons. Listen for Him in a songbird's melody or a child's laughter. Drink in the flavor of crisp autumn air or inhale the fragrance of newly mowed hay. Feel His presence in the soft texture of a newborn's skin. Look for him by yourself, independently, without someone pointing you to the place they think you might find Him. Look for Him.
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