My point is calling a spade a spade. When the smoke & mirrors are cleared away, PFAL appears to be nothing more than a pretentious eclectic slipshod patchwork systematic theology of dubious production by a deluded theologian-wannabe.
Yes. . . . . and much of it was heavily influenced by the Word of Faith Movement. Which makes sense given the time frame. . . . http://www.gospelout...twordfaith.html
I think you are seeing some of the spill over or second generation revelations in groups like STF with its Personal Prophecy and God not being completely in control. That too makes perfect sense given what the leaders of STF came from. . . . . it is that special knowledge that no one else understands. . . they hold the keys to God's Kingdom. . . . so to speak.
It reminds me of an episode of Welcome Back Kotter. Arnold joined a cult called Baba Bebe and the Bebe Babas. The Sweathogs try to deprogram him to no avail. Finally, after Arnold describes what life will be like in the commune, Mr. Kotter says "Arnold, that's not religion, it's slavery." The light of realization didn't come on right away but it started to glow. (Maybe I'll post the episode in the "Silly" forum if I can find it.)
Yes. . . . . and much of it was heavily influenced by the Word of Faith Movement. Which makes sense given the time frame. . . . http://www.gospelout...twordfaith.html
I think you are seeing some of the spill over or second generation revelations in groups like STF with its Personal Prophecy and God not being completely in control. That too makes perfect sense given what the leaders of STF came from. . . . . it is that special knowledge that no one else understands. . . they hold the keys to God's Kingdom. . . . so to speak.
"Special knowledge" you say? You mean, like maybe TWI, STS and rest are/is modern day gnosticism?
"Systematic theology" ? As regards theology, I don't think I can agree it was systematic. It was, as you say, a mishmash.
Having said that, however, it did take me into parts of the Bible that otherwise I probably wouldn't have explored, read, got to know anything about. Some of it relates to NT teachings, and some of it is on a theme of some description.
It was all very pseudo - took us hither and thither, using verses on an alleged theme but whipping through them so fast that it was difficult to grasp the context of a verse that was being used in support of that theme. Sometimes to understand a verse might require reading the rest of the chapter before and after; sometimes several chapters either way. And then we were kept so busy that we had no time to go back and really consider the verse in its context.
The PFAL foundational class "crammer" got people used to this hopping-about idea really quickly; after all, that's what so much of PFAL is about. Part of the overall impression given that this "teacher" is widely understanding of the Bible as a whole. All this hopping about gives the impression of being widely read, widely understanding, the Bible; but in fact any fool with a concordance can pull verses out of context.
And because things were never set in their cultural context (not the Israelite culture, nor the wider middle eastern culture understood to be prevailing at any given time), again there was no context for a verse grabbed at random.
Long ago, T-Bone, you recommended reading he Lion Handbook to the Bible. I have a copy and it is really excellent at setting things in their cultural context, both immediately and in the wider middle eastern context, by comparing with other tribal cultures of the time (Assyrians, Babylonians, Hittites, Egyptians, etc) ascertained from archaeological artefacts.
I do think, however, that VPW-ology was systematic - systematic deception.
"Special knowledge" you say? You mean, like maybe TWI, STS and rest are/is modern day gnosticism?
No, I don't think they are modern day gnostics. I think there is an element of gnosticism. . . . which is also found in the foundation of the Faith movement. TWI is an odd mix of Orthodox and mysticism as is Word of Faith. (see article)
Some think there is an element of gnoticism in Paul's epistles.
It is really difficult to pin down TWI theology. It is so eclectic. Which I think is T-Bone's point. :) pretentious eclectic slipshod patchwork systematic theology of dubious production by a deluded theologian-wannabe.
Some Charismatic leanings. . . . Speaking in tongues was taken to a whole new level.
Kind of strange how our only rule of faith and practice was not actually the scriptures themselves, but was in large part VP's revelatory understanding of scripture. The whole thing began with an audible revelation. . . . or story of one. The Man of God for our day and time is very Word of Faith based as is not questioning him.
Though shall not commit adultery or Matthew 5:28. . . . but, for the few who were initiated and spiritual enough to have the knowledge. . . . God said it was okay.
The Advanced Class was full of secret knowledge for the few. Remember, we were not to go back and speak about it?
What I wonder about is where did they get all this knowledge? Scripture is not replete with information on Satan. . . it is about Jesus Christ. Where did it come from? Satan/devil is mentioned about 107 in the whole bible. . . . much of what I heard in the Advanced class was from the occult. From outside of scripture.
We thought God gave us revelation on which devils indwelt our "brothers and sisters" in Christ. Who in theory were also indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Crowded in there.
Where are the examples of believers being possessed in the bible?
I did listen to some of what STF had posted on You-Tube. After I got past the sweeping hand gestures and voice cadence. . . . it seemed the substance of what I heard was rooted in Faith theology. Many Word of Faith teachers don't believe God is sovereign. Seems it is another eclectic mish mash. Esoteric in nature.
Great input everyone. I think some of the posts have touched upon the nature of vp's theology – it is malleable, i.e. capable of being shaped, formed, adapted or adjusted to fit circumstances or suit TWI's agenda. Maybe that's why sometimes it's challenging to try and nail down vp's doctrines. I also think vp's dynamics of trying to homogenize the eclectic elements can throw off the casual glance.
Take the law of believing as an example of how "plastic" vp's theology is. It works for saint and sinner alike – but vp doctrine says because the believer has the spirit of God, can outdo the sinner in terms of results. Or you've blown it with not believing for something – but it turns out good anyway – vp would explain it as due to God's grace. Or as far as you know – you've been believing, doing everything within your power to prepare for receiving the thing you want – you don't get it, so the vp explanation is that you were not believing, dummy.
It reminds me of an episode of Welcome Back Kotter. Arnold joined a cult called Baba Bebe and the Bebe Babas. The Sweathogs try to deprogram him to no avail. Finally, after Arnold describes what life will be like in the commune, Mr. Kotter says "Arnold, that's not religion, it's slavery." The light of realization didn't come on right away but it started to glow. (Maybe I'll post the episode in the "Silly" forum if I can find it.)
Waysider, I loved that show. I tried to play the link you posted in Silly - but had difficulty with uploading Adobe Flash Player 10.. . will try again later.. . hey, but feel free to post it here too. I DID include your post in my comment of great input by all. You know I'm all about bringing some levity to threads!
As a teenager I got it in my head that if vpw got all this knowledge from the bible, then I should be repeat the process for myself. (So that I would really understand it.) I would spend hours going through a syllabus trying to see the natural flow from the bible. Constantly I would get frustrated, digging through a concordance or whatever book trying to find "Where on earth did this come from?" I didn't come up with my own "religion" or anything, I just couldn't find where twi got its info.
I would start asking my folks first, who point to the fellowship leader, who then would guide me to a limb leader, or another class, or some other book written by Pillai. "Read this, ask so and so, take this class, go Way D, Go corps".
If I had a physics question or any other subject, the teacher at school would spend time after school hammering out some minute point, grabbing any resource until the question was answered clearly and I could repeat it THAT DAY. Not say "Well, you'll learn that when you get to college"
NOBODY in twi really cared about syncing their "doctrine" with the bible. I asked numerous cabinet and region coordinators, numerous rank and file, "Where'd this come from?", always got the answer "Well, Doctor Wierwille once said . . . blah blah blah . . . in the Blue Book it says . . blah blah blah." NOBODY really knew ANYTHING of substance about THE BIBLE. (KJV included).
NOBODY in twi "works the word" or really knows that vpw's teachings come from "da werd". If they say they do, they are lying. IMHO.
Now it all seems obviously absurd. How did I slide down the rabbit hole?
I should have waited a few hours before posting the above.....because now I know how I tumbled down the rabbit hole....and, in fact, I was destined to slide down there by virtue of my upbringing.
Thank you Penworks!
I was raised in a Fundamentalist church.....they don't get much more fundamental than the Dutch Reformed Church! That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
And I know how I'm gonna dig myself out of it....well "dig myself" is not the right thing to say.
A donkey fell into a deep hole and the farmer kept trying to kill the donkey by throwing dirt into the hole in an attempt to suffocate him. But as each shovelful landed the donkey walked over to it and tromped it down. It didn't take long until the bottom of the hole was even with the surface of the pasture and the donkey just walked away!
Now it all seems obviously absurd. How did I slide down the rabbit hole?
Funny you should say that, Krys. My original thread idea was going to be something along the lines of vp's assault on reason, opening with the quote I've cited below. I was thinking of this being like a gateway tenet – acceptance of it led to one being receptive to his other ideas – that may explain how I slid down the rabbit hole. Guess I went with what I did in my first post cuz I was going for a broader target – exposing the sham of vp's theology. Will go with it now since it may relate to the dynamics of vp's homogenizing eclectic elements I mentioned in post # 8.
On Page 23 & 24 of "The Bible Tells Me So", in the chapter "Are You Limiting God?" vp says:
".. .We frequently limit God in ourselves by our wrong believing, by accepting the knowledge that comes to us through our senses. Our reason says, 'That just cannot be,' and so we confess the negative, when all the time His spirit within us is crying out, 'Sufficiency in everything.'
We have been so schooled to revere the knowledge that comes to us through our five senses that we fail to recognize the knowledge that comes from the higher realm, the spiritual where the Word of God, and not reason, has first place. Both realms or worlds are here: the natural world is factual; the spiritual world is true.
As there are four kingdoms in this world, and one supersedes the other: the plant kingdom, animal kingdom, kingdom of man and the Kingdom of God; so, there is a natural world and a supernatural or spiritual world.
The natural world and everything in it comes to the mind through or by way of the natural senses. The truths of the spiritual world are absolutely not dependent upon the senses, but rather on the spirit from God in man."
End of excerpt
~~
Imho, his asserting the priority of "the Word of God" over reason was a way for him to embed a faulty premise that defeated critical thinking from the get-go. Then whatever vp says is the accuracy of the Word, the accuracy and integrity of the Word, the great accuracy of the Word, the ineffable greatness of the I-wish-you-could-see-it-in-the-original-holy-grail-of-texts-Word, and absurdium infinitum - THAT is what you were supposed to believe, regardless of what your stupid brain thinks!
Personally, I don't find much in the Bible that pits faith against reason or even the five senses. Perhaps it's all complementary and may be more a matter of how each informs the other. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. When Jesus taught on trusting God He said look at the birds and consider how your Heavenly Father takes care of them. Isaiah spoke to Israel of the Lord's invitation to reason with Him about their spiritual status. Hebrews says it's by faith we understand the universe was formed at God's command.
If God created us and endowed us with powers of reason I tend to think He had a purpose in mind – like maybe so we're on the same wavelength as Him or something – or how else would the intelligent communication of ideas be possible?
I'm not saying anything incomprehensible is suspect. I cannot conceive of a being that inhabits eternity and I have never caught a glimpse of Him. Yet, the Bible says I am to live by faith and not by having my Lord in sight – believing in the reality of His presence with us and the certainty of His promises regarding the future [iI Corinthians 5:7].
Offhand, I can't think of anything in the Bible that directs us to do things contrary to reason. Matter of fact, it might prove to be a fun study to go through the book of Proverbs while recalling the old TWI viewpoint on a particular issue. I think there'd be some stark contrasts between the practical wisdom of Proverbs and the TWI way of doing things. From what I remember - it didn't matter if it was money, morals, safety & security, decision-making, business, relationships, property, whatever – vp had something to say about it all and amazingly it all seemed to suit TWI's agenda for some reason.
This is all just my opinion of course and I could be wrong on a lot of things - but for me, I don't think the Christian life is one of trying to conquer reality with the law of believing, SIT, and renewing my mind to block out differing viewpoints or whatever contradicts my mental map of reality. Jesus' directive to love God & neighbor is simple yet challenging enough for me - and after all it was the basis for His systematic theology. The Lord even set some basic parameters for our prayer life when He taught His followers to pray - probably too meager for the greedy health & wealth groups - but I think it's a healthy thing to keep it simple - thank God for my daily bread, ask for forgiveness, and seek His help when dealing with temptation. I believe the goal of systematic theology should be the pursuit of the practical application of Scripture. And to press it further - the practical application that is an honor to God.
I don't think it's about attaining knowledge just to be a know-it-all or a spiritual snob.
It's a little scary when I stand back and think about the guy I followed for a time. vp answered to no one. And with a hodgepodge of beliefs, a fifth of charisma [usually Drambuie], and an imaginary ordination by the voice of god he led us down a rabbit hole – an absurd world of his own making.
Good point! I know my rabbit a$ $ [oops context - CONTEXT - I mean buns] got bit quite a few times down there. Maybe that's where the old expression came from "Hare today, gone tomorrow."
Here's another gem from the annals of history [better make that the anals of history] - that showcases vp's tremendous research skills to discover "the accuracy & integrity of the Word". In between one of the sessions at PFAL 77 as an aside vp was talking about how he worked "the Word". And there I was - in the audience with greatness – as he was about to reveal another trade secret of how great minds know where to look for buried treasure. Feelings of giddiness abound, as if we were sitting down with Einstein as he walks us through his thought process of developing E = MC2.. . vp said, "Sometimes Father will make a word or phrase one inch tall."
The ineffable greatness of that principle may elude some – but all you Bible scholars out there, take note!
Sometimes I think there are a few of you here who must have worked as writers for Saturday Night Live or Monty Python.
If we couldn't laugh at some of the past...
Must be why I like M*A*S*H reruns. I've have war vets tell me that's what it takes to survive in that insane environment...a little silly harmless spoofing...
Penworks, I totally agree with that! I think a small part of Grease Spot's draw for us all may be the medicinal value of a good laugh. I'm not a war vet but I am a survivor of TWI's insane environment.
The levity at Grease Spot helps me put things in perspective – well, it's many things.. .laughing at myself for being so dum as to believe this or that.. .
It's a nice break from taking myself or life so seriously. Life in Way World was so oppressive and cognitive distortions were rampant – almost like the morphing font sizes of vp mentioned in earlier post, my take on situations or just trying to assess my general status suffered from the flip-flopping binoculars. I'd magnify whatever leadership said was important and minimize what I wanted; or magnify perceived abilities of others [like vp's "mastery of the Word"] and tell my critical thinking to take a back seat.
Hmmm, I guess what's funny is this whole role reversal thing now. But back then there was a constant push, a challenge to aspire to the greatness of someone like vp [insert real-time gagging sound here] and the slumps of personal failures that I usually interpreted as a telltale sign my believing was way below par, "Who am I kidding? I'll never come close to doing anything great for God."
Humor is a fun way to develop critical thinking skills. I love the sarcasm and wit of Grease Spotters – it's a clever way to expose the insidiousness and absurdity of the TWI doctrine, practice, mindset, and jargon. Things that make for a good laugh are the choice of ammunition and target. I don't think Grease Spot will ever run out of ammunition and in TWI we have a target-rich environment. Enough with the ceasefire! Commence with the debunking already!
Penworks, I totally agree with that! I think a small part of Grease Spot's draw for us all may be the medicinal value of a good laugh. I'm not a war vet but I am a survivor of TWI's insane environment.
The levity at Grease Spot helps me put things in perspective – well, it's many things.. .laughing at myself for being so dum as to believe this or that.. .
It's a nice break from taking myself or life so seriously. Life in Way World was so oppressive and cognitive distortions were rampant – almost like the morphing font sizes of vp mentioned in earlier post, my take on situations or just trying to assess my general status suffered from the flip-flopping binoculars. I'd magnify whatever leadership said was important and minimize what I wanted; or magnify perceived abilities of others [like vp's "mastery of the Word"] and tell my critical thinking to take a back seat.
Hmmm, I guess what's funny is this whole role reversal thing now. But back then there was a constant push, a challenge to aspire to the greatness of someone like vp [insert real-time gagging sound here] and the slumps of personal failures that I usually interpreted as a telltale sign my believing was way below par, "Who am I kidding? I'll never come close to doing anything great for God."
Humor is a fun way to develop critical thinking skills. I love the sarcasm and wit of Grease Spotters – it's a clever way to expose the insidiousness and absurdity of the TWI doctrine, practice, mindset, and jargon. Things that make for a good laugh are the choice of ammunition and target. I don't think Grease Spot will ever run out of ammunition and in TWI we have a target-rich environment. Enough with the ceasefire! Commence with the debunking already!
So - - - How many Wafers does it take to change a light bulb??
So - - - How many Wafers does it take to change a light bulb??
It's a variable answer of 4 to 9 depending on the gift ministry contingency.
1. One to find out what's available [that could take awhile depending on the number of hardware & grocery stores in their area – don't forget to factor in the Yellow Pages search since the Internet is of the devil and absolutely verboten].
2. One to believe for God to supply the light bulb – an essential responsibility in the WOW program since the promised blessings of prosperity seem to be held in abeyance for some reason during this time period.
3. One to check with the Way Tree for authorization and scheduling.
4. One to discern the spiritual status of the light socket – don't want to be screwing with any devil spirits, that's for sure.
5. Contingency factor if gift ministry/ministries present. [* see note below]
* note -the gift ministry contingency: In the event of one of them having a gift ministry it could raise the number of wafers assigned to this task by up to nine – if the "gifted" individual happened to operate all five ministries all the time.
It's a variable answer of 4 to 9 depending on the gift ministry contingency.
1. One to find out what's available [that could take awhile depending on the number of hardware & grocery stores in their area – don't forget to factor in the Yellow Pages search since the Internet is of the devil and absolutely verboten].
2. One to believe for God to supply the light bulb – an essential responsibility in the WOW program since the promised blessings of prosperity seem to be held in abeyance for some reason during this time period.
3. One to check with the Way Tree for authorization and scheduling.
4. One to discern the spiritual status of the light socket – don't want to be screwing with any devil spirits, that's for sure.
5. Contingency factor if gift ministry/ministries present. [* see note below]
* note -the gift ministry contingency: In the event of one of them having a gift ministry it could raise the number of wafers assigned to this task by up to nine – if the "gifted" individual happened to operate all five ministries all the time.
You forgot the person who needs to stand nearby and speak in tongues for the situation. It's a spiritual competition after all.
You forgot the person who needs to stand nearby and speak in tongues for the situation. It's a spiritual competition after all.
Yup – I don't consider my post the definitive answer to D Miller's question. This is the Grease Spot Café - NOT the illustrious Way International's Biblical Research & Teaching stink-tank. I'm perfectly happy with this thread taking whatever meandering detours it can find to explore the myriad of comedic possibilities of D Miller's thought provoking post.
And if you want to drive one of those old clunker of a WOW-mobile on the detour – I'm fine with that too. Just don't asphyxiate me with its smoking exhaust pipe when you pass me by – cuz I'll be jogging on this detour – have to get some aerobic points in dontcha know for the ol' Corps program – geez, I'm not one of those Fundamentalists who believes their body should literally be a vehicle for the ministry. I see 'em out there on the road every so often – they've got 4 or 5 people on their back – and forget it if they happen to be a Branch leader. Those poor souls look like a tractor trailer with an oversized load.
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waysider
DMiller, rumrunner, and pretty sure Kris, as well.
geisha779
Yes. . . . . and much of it was heavily influenced by the Word of Faith Movement. Which makes sense given the time frame. . . . http://www.gospelout...twordfaith.html
I think you are seeing some of the spill over or second generation revelations in groups like STF with its Personal Prophecy and God not being completely in control. That too makes perfect sense given what the leaders of STF came from. . . . . it is that special knowledge that no one else understands. . . they hold the keys to God's Kingdom. . . . so to speak.
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Tzaia
It was esoteric. That was the pull for me.
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waysider
It reminds me of an episode of Welcome Back Kotter. Arnold joined a cult called Baba Bebe and the Bebe Babas. The Sweathogs try to deprogram him to no avail. Finally, after Arnold describes what life will be like in the commune, Mr. Kotter says "Arnold, that's not religion, it's slavery." The light of realization didn't come on right away but it started to glow. (Maybe I'll post the episode in the "Silly" forum if I can find it.)
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Broken Arrow
"Special knowledge" you say? You mean, like maybe TWI, STS and rest are/is modern day gnosticism?
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Twinky
"Systematic theology" ? As regards theology, I don't think I can agree it was systematic. It was, as you say, a mishmash.
Having said that, however, it did take me into parts of the Bible that otherwise I probably wouldn't have explored, read, got to know anything about. Some of it relates to NT teachings, and some of it is on a theme of some description.
It was all very pseudo - took us hither and thither, using verses on an alleged theme but whipping through them so fast that it was difficult to grasp the context of a verse that was being used in support of that theme. Sometimes to understand a verse might require reading the rest of the chapter before and after; sometimes several chapters either way. And then we were kept so busy that we had no time to go back and really consider the verse in its context.
The PFAL foundational class "crammer" got people used to this hopping-about idea really quickly; after all, that's what so much of PFAL is about. Part of the overall impression given that this "teacher" is widely understanding of the Bible as a whole. All this hopping about gives the impression of being widely read, widely understanding, the Bible; but in fact any fool with a concordance can pull verses out of context.
And because things were never set in their cultural context (not the Israelite culture, nor the wider middle eastern culture understood to be prevailing at any given time), again there was no context for a verse grabbed at random.
Long ago, T-Bone, you recommended reading he Lion Handbook to the Bible. I have a copy and it is really excellent at setting things in their cultural context, both immediately and in the wider middle eastern context, by comparing with other tribal cultures of the time (Assyrians, Babylonians, Hittites, Egyptians, etc) ascertained from archaeological artefacts.
I do think, however, that VPW-ology was systematic - systematic deception.
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geisha779
No, I don't think they are modern day gnostics. I think there is an element of gnosticism. . . . which is also found in the foundation of the Faith movement. TWI is an odd mix of Orthodox and mysticism as is Word of Faith. (see article)
Some think there is an element of gnoticism in Paul's epistles.
It is really difficult to pin down TWI theology. It is so eclectic. Which I think is T-Bone's point. :) pretentious eclectic slipshod patchwork systematic theology of dubious production by a deluded theologian-wannabe.
Some Charismatic leanings. . . . Speaking in tongues was taken to a whole new level.
Kind of strange how our only rule of faith and practice was not actually the scriptures themselves, but was in large part VP's revelatory understanding of scripture. The whole thing began with an audible revelation. . . . or story of one. The Man of God for our day and time is very Word of Faith based as is not questioning him.
Though shall not commit adultery or Matthew 5:28. . . . but, for the few who were initiated and spiritual enough to have the knowledge. . . . God said it was okay.
The Advanced Class was full of secret knowledge for the few. Remember, we were not to go back and speak about it?
What I wonder about is where did they get all this knowledge? Scripture is not replete with information on Satan. . . it is about Jesus Christ. Where did it come from? Satan/devil is mentioned about 107 in the whole bible. . . . much of what I heard in the Advanced class was from the occult. From outside of scripture.
We thought God gave us revelation on which devils indwelt our "brothers and sisters" in Christ. Who in theory were also indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Crowded in there.
Where are the examples of believers being possessed in the bible?
I did listen to some of what STF had posted on You-Tube. After I got past the sweeping hand gestures and voice cadence. . . . it seemed the substance of what I heard was rooted in Faith theology. Many Word of Faith teachers don't believe God is sovereign. Seems it is another eclectic mish mash. Esoteric in nature.
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T-Bone
Great input everyone. I think some of the posts have touched upon the nature of vp's theology – it is malleable, i.e. capable of being shaped, formed, adapted or adjusted to fit circumstances or suit TWI's agenda. Maybe that's why sometimes it's challenging to try and nail down vp's doctrines. I also think vp's dynamics of trying to homogenize the eclectic elements can throw off the casual glance.
Take the law of believing as an example of how "plastic" vp's theology is. It works for saint and sinner alike – but vp doctrine says because the believer has the spirit of God, can outdo the sinner in terms of results. Or you've blown it with not believing for something – but it turns out good anyway – vp would explain it as due to God's grace. Or as far as you know – you've been believing, doing everything within your power to prepare for receiving the thing you want – you don't get it, so the vp explanation is that you were not believing, dummy.
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T-Bone
Waysider, I loved that show. I tried to play the link you posted in Silly - but had difficulty with uploading Adobe Flash Player 10.. . will try again later.. . hey, but feel free to post it here too. I DID include your post in my comment of great input by all. You know I'm all about bringing some levity to threads!
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Bolshevik
As a teenager I got it in my head that if vpw got all this knowledge from the bible, then I should be repeat the process for myself. (So that I would really understand it.) I would spend hours going through a syllabus trying to see the natural flow from the bible. Constantly I would get frustrated, digging through a concordance or whatever book trying to find "Where on earth did this come from?" I didn't come up with my own "religion" or anything, I just couldn't find where twi got its info.
I would start asking my folks first, who point to the fellowship leader, who then would guide me to a limb leader, or another class, or some other book written by Pillai. "Read this, ask so and so, take this class, go Way D, Go corps".
If I had a physics question or any other subject, the teacher at school would spend time after school hammering out some minute point, grabbing any resource until the question was answered clearly and I could repeat it THAT DAY. Not say "Well, you'll learn that when you get to college"
NOBODY in twi really cared about syncing their "doctrine" with the bible. I asked numerous cabinet and region coordinators, numerous rank and file, "Where'd this come from?", always got the answer "Well, Doctor Wierwille once said . . . blah blah blah . . . in the Blue Book it says . . blah blah blah." NOBODY really knew ANYTHING of substance about THE BIBLE. (KJV included).
NOBODY in twi "works the word" or really knows that vpw's teachings come from "da werd". If they say they do, they are lying. IMHO.
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krys
Now it all seems obviously absurd. How did I slide down the rabbit hole?
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krys
I should have waited a few hours before posting the above.....because now I know how I tumbled down the rabbit hole....and, in fact, I was destined to slide down there by virtue of my upbringing.
Thank you Penworks!
I was raised in a Fundamentalist church.....they don't get much more fundamental than the Dutch Reformed Church! That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
And I know how I'm gonna dig myself out of it....well "dig myself" is not the right thing to say.
A donkey fell into a deep hole and the farmer kept trying to kill the donkey by throwing dirt into the hole in an attempt to suffocate him. But as each shovelful landed the donkey walked over to it and tromped it down. It didn't take long until the bottom of the hole was even with the surface of the pasture and the donkey just walked away!
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T-Bone
Funny you should say that, Krys. My original thread idea was going to be something along the lines of vp's assault on reason, opening with the quote I've cited below. I was thinking of this being like a gateway tenet – acceptance of it led to one being receptive to his other ideas – that may explain how I slid down the rabbit hole. Guess I went with what I did in my first post cuz I was going for a broader target – exposing the sham of vp's theology. Will go with it now since it may relate to the dynamics of vp's homogenizing eclectic elements I mentioned in post # 8.
On Page 23 & 24 of "The Bible Tells Me So", in the chapter "Are You Limiting God?" vp says:
".. .We frequently limit God in ourselves by our wrong believing, by accepting the knowledge that comes to us through our senses. Our reason says, 'That just cannot be,' and so we confess the negative, when all the time His spirit within us is crying out, 'Sufficiency in everything.'
We have been so schooled to revere the knowledge that comes to us through our five senses that we fail to recognize the knowledge that comes from the higher realm, the spiritual where the Word of God, and not reason, has first place. Both realms or worlds are here: the natural world is factual; the spiritual world is true.
As there are four kingdoms in this world, and one supersedes the other: the plant kingdom, animal kingdom, kingdom of man and the Kingdom of God; so, there is a natural world and a supernatural or spiritual world.
The natural world and everything in it comes to the mind through or by way of the natural senses. The truths of the spiritual world are absolutely not dependent upon the senses, but rather on the spirit from God in man."
End of excerpt
~~
Imho, his asserting the priority of "the Word of God" over reason was a way for him to embed a faulty premise that defeated critical thinking from the get-go. Then whatever vp says is the accuracy of the Word, the accuracy and integrity of the Word, the great accuracy of the Word, the ineffable greatness of the I-wish-you-could-see-it-in-the-original-holy-grail-of-texts-Word, and absurdium infinitum - THAT is what you were supposed to believe, regardless of what your stupid brain thinks!
Personally, I don't find much in the Bible that pits faith against reason or even the five senses. Perhaps it's all complementary and may be more a matter of how each informs the other. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. When Jesus taught on trusting God He said look at the birds and consider how your Heavenly Father takes care of them. Isaiah spoke to Israel of the Lord's invitation to reason with Him about their spiritual status. Hebrews says it's by faith we understand the universe was formed at God's command.
If God created us and endowed us with powers of reason I tend to think He had a purpose in mind – like maybe so we're on the same wavelength as Him or something – or how else would the intelligent communication of ideas be possible?
I'm not saying anything incomprehensible is suspect. I cannot conceive of a being that inhabits eternity and I have never caught a glimpse of Him. Yet, the Bible says I am to live by faith and not by having my Lord in sight – believing in the reality of His presence with us and the certainty of His promises regarding the future [iI Corinthians 5:7].
Offhand, I can't think of anything in the Bible that directs us to do things contrary to reason. Matter of fact, it might prove to be a fun study to go through the book of Proverbs while recalling the old TWI viewpoint on a particular issue. I think there'd be some stark contrasts between the practical wisdom of Proverbs and the TWI way of doing things. From what I remember - it didn't matter if it was money, morals, safety & security, decision-making, business, relationships, property, whatever – vp had something to say about it all and amazingly it all seemed to suit TWI's agenda for some reason.
This is all just my opinion of course and I could be wrong on a lot of things - but for me, I don't think the Christian life is one of trying to conquer reality with the law of believing, SIT, and renewing my mind to block out differing viewpoints or whatever contradicts my mental map of reality. Jesus' directive to love God & neighbor is simple yet challenging enough for me - and after all it was the basis for His systematic theology. The Lord even set some basic parameters for our prayer life when He taught His followers to pray - probably too meager for the greedy health & wealth groups - but I think it's a healthy thing to keep it simple - thank God for my daily bread, ask for forgiveness, and seek His help when dealing with temptation. I believe the goal of systematic theology should be the pursuit of the practical application of Scripture. And to press it further - the practical application that is an honor to God.
I don't think it's about attaining knowledge just to be a know-it-all or a spiritual snob.
It's a little scary when I stand back and think about the guy I followed for a time. vp answered to no one. And with a hodgepodge of beliefs, a fifth of charisma [usually Drambuie], and an imaginary ordination by the voice of god he led us down a rabbit hole – an absurd world of his own making.
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waysider
A rabbit hole?
More like a snake pit.
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T-Bone
Good point! I know my rabbit a$ $ [oops context - CONTEXT - I mean buns] got bit quite a few times down there. Maybe that's where the old expression came from "Hare today, gone tomorrow."
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T-Bone
Here's another gem from the annals of history [better make that the anals of history] - that showcases vp's tremendous research skills to discover "the accuracy & integrity of the Word". In between one of the sessions at PFAL 77 as an aside vp was talking about how he worked "the Word". And there I was - in the audience with greatness – as he was about to reveal another trade secret of how great minds know where to look for buried treasure. Feelings of giddiness abound, as if we were sitting down with Einstein as he walks us through his thought process of developing E = MC2.. . vp said, "Sometimes Father will make a word or phrase one inch tall."
The ineffable greatness of that principle may elude some – but all you Bible scholars out there, take note!
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waysider
Sounds like it could have been a line from Through the Looking Glass.
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T-Bone
too funny Waysider!
or
it could be a reference to vp's rendition of "White Rabbit"
One swig of Drambuie makes the words larger
the next swig makes the words small
but the drink they gave me at the detox center
doesn't do anything at all.. .
I'm sorry, I'm sorry - I know the meter and rhyme are all screwed up - but I didn't have time for Way Productions to proof the lyrics.
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penworks
Sometimes I think there are a few of you here who must have worked as writers for Saturday Night Live or Monty Python.
If we couldn't laugh at some of the past...
Must be why I like M*A*S*H reruns. I've have war vets tell me that's what it takes to survive in that insane environment...a little silly harmless spoofing...
So, thanks.
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waysider
And this is from a man who died as a result of an ophthalmic pathology.
I'm just sayin'-----
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T-Bone
Penworks, I totally agree with that! I think a small part of Grease Spot's draw for us all may be the medicinal value of a good laugh. I'm not a war vet but I am a survivor of TWI's insane environment.
The levity at Grease Spot helps me put things in perspective – well, it's many things.. .laughing at myself for being so dum as to believe this or that.. .
It's a nice break from taking myself or life so seriously. Life in Way World was so oppressive and cognitive distortions were rampant – almost like the morphing font sizes of vp mentioned in earlier post, my take on situations or just trying to assess my general status suffered from the flip-flopping binoculars. I'd magnify whatever leadership said was important and minimize what I wanted; or magnify perceived abilities of others [like vp's "mastery of the Word"] and tell my critical thinking to take a back seat.
Hmmm, I guess what's funny is this whole role reversal thing now. But back then there was a constant push, a challenge to aspire to the greatness of someone like vp [insert real-time gagging sound here] and the slumps of personal failures that I usually interpreted as a telltale sign my believing was way below par, "Who am I kidding? I'll never come close to doing anything great for God."
Humor is a fun way to develop critical thinking skills. I love the sarcasm and wit of Grease Spotters – it's a clever way to expose the insidiousness and absurdity of the TWI doctrine, practice, mindset, and jargon. Things that make for a good laugh are the choice of ammunition and target. I don't think Grease Spot will ever run out of ammunition and in TWI we have a target-rich environment. Enough with the ceasefire! Commence with the debunking already!
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dmiller
So - - - How many Wafers does it take to change a light bulb??
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T-Bone
It's a variable answer of 4 to 9 depending on the gift ministry contingency.
1. One to find out what's available [that could take awhile depending on the number of hardware & grocery stores in their area – don't forget to factor in the Yellow Pages search since the Internet is of the devil and absolutely verboten].
2. One to believe for God to supply the light bulb – an essential responsibility in the WOW program since the promised blessings of prosperity seem to be held in abeyance for some reason during this time period.
3. One to check with the Way Tree for authorization and scheduling.
4. One to discern the spiritual status of the light socket – don't want to be screwing with any devil spirits, that's for sure.
5. Contingency factor if gift ministry/ministries present. [* see note below]
* note -the gift ministry contingency: In the event of one of them having a gift ministry it could raise the number of wafers assigned to this task by up to nine – if the "gifted" individual happened to operate all five ministries all the time.
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OldSkool
You forgot the person who needs to stand nearby and speak in tongues for the situation. It's a spiritual competition after all.
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T-Bone
Yup – I don't consider my post the definitive answer to D Miller's question. This is the Grease Spot Café - NOT the illustrious Way International's Biblical Research & Teaching stink-tank. I'm perfectly happy with this thread taking whatever meandering detours it can find to explore the myriad of comedic possibilities of D Miller's thought provoking post.
And if you want to drive one of those old clunker of a WOW-mobile on the detour – I'm fine with that too. Just don't asphyxiate me with its smoking exhaust pipe when you pass me by – cuz I'll be jogging on this detour – have to get some aerobic points in dontcha know for the ol' Corps program – geez, I'm not one of those Fundamentalists who believes their body should literally be a vehicle for the ministry. I see 'em out there on the road every so often – they've got 4 or 5 people on their back – and forget it if they happen to be a Branch leader. Those poor souls look like a tractor trailer with an oversized load.
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