Another Way Ministry Splinter Group

[T-Bone]

It's simple Waysider. The .... that went down was bad. People got hurt. Sin got the "bit in it's teeth" and began to rule TWI until it crumbled. It reminds me of all the sin that we saw amongst the believers in the Old Testament, the sin that went down in the First Century Church which the Apostle Paul addressed in the Church epistles. Nothing new under the sun dude.

And as for me, I prefer to take the good things that I learned, continue to utilize them, and discard that which I believe to be Biblically inaccurate, discard any bad memories which I chalk up to "sin nature/human nature" and help others to do the same if I can. I have said it before and I will say it again. I believe that VP started out as a good guy who wanted to help others live the more than abundant life, but quickly allowed his sin nature to rule as he "looked to the left and then to the right" and did not keep his "eyes turned upon Jesus". He had a weakness for women and succumbed to it, abusing his trust as a Minister. And I am in no way equating VP with King David, but David, a man after God's own heart, knocked up Uriah's wife and then had Uriah killed, which p**sed God off mightily! And God forgave David. I think God could also forgive VP, had VP asked. But we don't know if VP did that or not. Guess that's in God's ball park. .. .

<snip>

What about "I know it was bad, it was abusive and hurtful" do you not understand? The only difference between me and others here is the "time table" of when the evil set in and what to do about it now that the abuses have been made known. You don't need to convince me of the abuses.

What part of explaining how the PFAL-colored glasses work did you NOT understand? Also what part of biblical directives do you NOT understand where Christians are warned to beware of false prophets, wolves in sheep's clothing, false teachers and their toxic doctrines – it's covered quite a bit by Jesus in the gospels and of course in the epistles.

So with regards to those misunderstandings and/or ignorance on your part, I'd venture to say one of the "distinguishing" differences between you and many folks here is your imaginary timeline of when the evil set in. Do you realize this time table is based on your assumptions. Many folks here have experienced the same things you have - but now when they look at certain things they see something different - whether it's facts or personal incidents. One doesn't need to be a genius to figure this out. May I suggest you re-examine some of the seemingly harmless little details in TWI books - that's as good a place as any where to start - look at some documented facts - what did vp & others put in writing?!

These are readily accessible facts that are endorsed by TWI no less! Facts you can read - with or without the PFAL-colored glasses – you can read them either in your PFAL books & TWI endorsed stuff [like "The Way Living in Love"] or read excerpts from them here on Grease Spot [where they're cited on some threads in conjunction with exposing the erroneous doctrine & faulty logic] - some of these facts provide a pretty clear idea of what TWI is all about evgen from the very beginning. Perhaps you didn't give full consideration to the implications and practical consequences of certain things accepted by all true TWI followers.

I'm not even suggesting you get into re-examining TWI doctrines & practices - I'm just wondering if you've ever noticed what a dubious basis TWI was built upon. And usually folks start seeing holes in the doctrines & practices once they see the only thing that gave them credence was the grand assumption that vp was THE man of god for this day and time and hour. That is a subtle undertow belief which overpowers the critical thinking skills of grads who fall for his initial charade of impersonating a minister of God or some "master" theologian.

The thinking that one can separate the bones from the fish, the good from the bad, Bible truth from destructive doctrines ignores the seriousness of such a futile endeavor. As I mentioned earlier of Scripture directives - one need only recall some of the most scathing rebukes by Jesus were toward certain religious leaders, with their twisted interpretations of Scripture, the permeating nature of the leaven of their doctrine and their hypocrisy - and even more so of setting themselves up as examples to follow.

Jesus did not say to throw out the Scriptures - but He did warn Christians of the entangling destructive power from the misuse of the Scriptures by such supposedly religious men!.. .Perhaps ignoring all that does grant a little "peace" to the mind - after all - it's uncomfortable to think about the possibility that one was involved in something as bad as what Jesus so often warned us about.

Anyway - check out what vp said or what's said about him - in his own words. Look past the Scripture thrown around and take a closer look at what vp says to sell his point or what is said to sell people the persona of THE man of god. Once you take out the reader's assumption of vp's direct hot line to God almighty - you'll begin to see more of his incompetent handling of Scripture, twisted logic, made-up definitions and absurd rhetoric.

It just may occur to you that the evil was there since the inception of TWI, since it was founded by a deluded egocentric liar who claimed he heard the audible voice of God, claimed God taught him everything he taught to others and that he believed the stuff he wrote [PFAL and the rest of his books] was actually God-breathed. These are facts! Statements in print! I don't care if one has the PFAL-colored glasses on or off – that's just what's written in vp's books & TWI endorsed books. The real difference between you and many other folks here is the opinion one has of those facts.

Edited November 11, 2009 by T-Bone

[Ham]

The sins comitted in The Way come nowhere near the level committed by the Roman Catholic Church during the Spanish Inquisition.

how do you know that?

I'd cite the vicster on how *little* sins are as bad as *big* ones.. but maybe that would be fruitless..

he raised "those who would EXECUTE you" IF they lived in old testament times..

you know. The homosexuals.. then the "compromised"..then the "worthless".. then those who happened to be "inconvenient" ..

[ClayJay]

Thanks T-Bone, thanks for your lengthy literary effort there-I did read it-but, no thanks. I have seen these arguments here hundreds of times. I know that you all want me to come to the same conclusions that you all have come to, but, I haven't, won't, and never will. But I appreciate your concern, really.

Okay Ham, you got me there when you said what you just said. Let me re-phrase it, okay? :

The sins committed in The Way had nowhere near the same level of violence and horror as those committed by the Roman Catholic Church during the Spanish Inquisition

.

I just can't remember being put into an Iron Maiden, or a "stretch rack", or having my thumbs put into "thumb screws", ya know? I mean, if you just want to disagree with me because my opinion is anathema here, then you can make an issue of what I had said, but, I think that you can see a large difference between the spiritual oppression when in The Way and the days when the RC Church perpetrated the Spanish Inquisition. I mean, c'mon bruh, give it to me. You know that there was a huge difference.

Is it because my opinion-so different than y'alls-just might "upset the apple cart", or cause some recent escapee from The Way to consider what I say? I mean, y'all seem to get really riled by this opinion. I mean, people here are allowed to make their own decisions as to what they believe, right? And, if I am so "dead wrong", as Gamaliel (or one of those "good guy pharisees") said; "it will come to nought". So, why the "panties in a bunch" hyper concern?

Signed,

"Jackalbait"

Edited November 12, 2009 by ClayJay

[waysider]

Yeah, you got a point.

Dr. Wierwille (You do know he wasn't really a "Doctor", right ?) never put anybody on the stretch rack or applied thumbscrews. He did, however, put date-rape drugs in the drinks of young ministry women so he could rape them on the motorcoach. I wonder how you would feel if he had done that to your mother.

Edited November 12, 2009 by waysider

[Bolshevik]

What about "I know it was bad, it was abusive and hurtful" do you not understand? The only difference between me and others here is the "time table" of when the evil set in and what to do about it now that the abuses have been made known. You don't need to convince me of the abuses.

I think there's others here who share your views.

[T-Bone]

Thanks T-Bone, thanks for your lengthy literary effort there-I did read it-but, no thanks. I have seen these arguments here hundreds of times. I know that you all want me to come to the same conclusions that you all have come to, but, I haven't, won't, and never will. But I appreciate your concern, really.. .

<snip>

No prob, Clay – I can say the same thing about your responses sounding awfully familiar – indeed repeating vp's logic & rhetoric to minimize or confuse moral issues [as I pointed out earlier of hearing vp's same peculiar twist on Balaam as well as on David's sin]. Sorry about the long posts – I do tend to get verbose – but ya know, sometimes it does take awhile to explain why a certain interpretation of Scripture is erroneous or to expose a faulty line of reasoning or hidden assumption.

My goal is not to have you come to the same conclusions as me or anyone else. As Bolshevik said, there's others here that share your view of the time table. Threads are an exchange of ideas and a sharing of opinions - even differing opinions. Hey, if we all thought alike - then more than likely no one is really thinking.

There's no big heavy concerns driving my dialog with you – just some curiosity over where you're going on threads. Hey, this has been a civil discussion and I enjoy the freedom to chime in with my 2 cents – unfortunately that won't go very far in today's economy but it does make for longer threads.

Anyway – see you around Grease Spot – love & peace

T-Bone

[chockfull]

Is it because my opinion-so different than y'alls-just might "upset the apple cart", or cause some recent escapee from The Way to consider what I say? I mean, y'all seem to get really riled by this opinion. I mean, people here are allowed to make their own decisions as to what they believe, right? And, if I am so "dead wrong", as Gamaliel (or one of those "good guy pharisees") said; "it will come to nought". So, why the "panties in a bunch" hyper concern?

There you go again, projecting. I'm not "really riled" by your opinion. But you seem pretty riled that 4 or 5 people seem to think differently than you do. In my opinion the evil was always there, and we were duped. In spite of that God probably worked in our lives for the positive during that time. But the point is if I don't recognize being duped then the next charlatan that comes along that can stir up positive emotions and actions has just as good of a chance of duping me.

[ClayJay]

T-Bone. Thank you for your kindly post. And, let me say that I missed out on commenting on one point you made which I have to agree with. I remember that VP said-AC '79 if I remember correctly, for me anyway- that the thing that "p*ssed God off the most" about the David and Bathsheba incident was that an unbeliever murdered Uriah the Hittite. I don't remember it quite that way, but close. I remember that God was ....ed that Uriah the Believer was murdered by the hand of David. But, I do remember the teaching that God was p.o.'d not because of the adultery, but because of Uriah's murder. And, like you said, if you look at Nathan the prophet's reproof of King David, the focus was on the fact that David had stolen the wife of Uriah, he who had nothing but his "one little sweet lamb", while the neighbor who was rich-indicating David-had more than he needed, yet stole from he who had little. And then David took his life. So yes, good point. I do believe that God was in fact p*ssed that Uriah, the noble, the honorable one had been killed by David, but, also that Nathan's little "parable", if you will, seemed to be way more focused on David stealing Bathsheba from Uriah. Yes, good point. Manipulative to be sure.

[T-Bone]

Cool, Clay. Grease Spot is certainly a unique blend of diversity in beliefs & opinions. And as much as I enjoy that thought provoking aspect of this place - it's also nice to find some common ground within our "splinter group".

Yo ! A round of cappuccino - er.. . uhm.. .or whatever floats your boat - and a toast to diversity

[Tzaia]

Clay - another angle to T-bone's point is that we had been taught to honor and even venerate like-mindedness to the place where it was nearly impossible to hear another opinion without checking it against the TWI take on that opinion.

Only in the past few years have I been able to recognize that tendency and the amount of influence it had on my thoughts and beliefs. As you can see, it creates an unhealthy divisiveness. TWI counted on its followers unwillingness to consider any other opinion and used that to people's detriment.

One other thing - it's all opinion. We won't know the "truth" until we die, and no one's been back to confirm any of it - not even Jesus.

[Rejoice]

Excellent point Tzaia!!

[Twinky]

Gut feeling on this is... I don't want to be "like minded" with anyone any more. Not if it means anyone is forcing it, suspending questions, being afraid to explore ideas...being afraid to explore God.

Nonetheless I'm delighted if there are others who agree somewhat or completely with what I understand/believe.

I am delighted to find "likemindedness" as in unity of heart and purpose, in fellow Christians who are Trinitarians, who attend a range of churches from mainstream/established to small housegroups. We're likeminded even if we differ on "surface" aspects. I'm interested in where and why they differ.

At the end of the day, it's our personal relationship with God that matters. That relationship is not found in reading books (not even the Bible) (and certainly not PFAL). It's found in using our God-given brains to contemplate who God is and meditating in the scriptures to understand Him (and our own lifestyle) better.

[T-Bone]

Clay - another angle to T-bone's point is that we had been taught to honor and even venerate like-mindedness to the place where it was nearly impossible to hear another opinion without checking it against the TWI take on that opinion.

Only in the past few years have I been able to recognize that tendency and the amount of influence it had on my thoughts and beliefs. As you can see, it creates an unhealthy divisiveness. TWI counted on its followers unwillingness to consider any other opinion and used that to people's detriment.

One other thing - it's all opinion. We won't know the "truth" until we die, and no one's been back to confirm any of it - not even Jesus.

Excellent post, Tzaia! And there's something I find so ironic - that which was such a threat to TWI's homogenization process - is really an unlikely "unifying" factor here - diversity! Some might recognize it by its other name - "freedom"!

Addressing the control freaks at TWI HQ: "Ain't payback a bi +ch ?!"

Edited November 12, 2009 by T-Bone

[excathedra]

the mission of this site says nothing about it being healing

was it my sigature about irony that someone referred to ?