The maker of the heavens and the earth. . . . was our own personal GPS in TWI. . . Lord ,do I take a right on Elm or a left? Which laundry detergent do I buy? Oh .. . and can you bless me with a good parking space for my rusted bucket of bolts that is unsafe to drive?
The maker of the heavens and the earth. . . . was our own personal GPS in TWI. . . Lord ,do I take a right on Elm or a left? Which laundry detergent do I buy? Oh .. . and can you bless me with a good parking space for my rusted bucket of bolts that is unsafe to drive?
yah it's like being in preschool or something and playing "mother may i" or something. it's kind of hit me square in the face why it took me so long to learn self determination but here the answer is right here on greasespot cafe and it's because i was raised in a cult that led people into a brain habit that made us think we had to have somebody or something holding our hand for every little thing like walking to kindergarten or somebody or something was going to get us and get us good and dead if we didn't tweak our brains and our habits just so and like this and i'm surprised we didn't have to all wear tin foil hats or something!
ok this is kind of making me mad because i can look back now and see where my brain started baking off in the bad directions now and boy oh boy i can really pinpoint it right to the way international!
yah it's like being in preschool or something and playing "mother may i" or something. it's kind of hit me square in the face why it took me so long to learn self determination but here the answer is right here on greasespot cafe and it's because i was raised in a cult that led people into a brain habit that made us think we had to have somebody or something holding our hand for every little thing like walking to kindergarten or somebody or something was going to get us and get us good and dead if we didn't tweak our brains and our habits just so and like this and i'm surprised we didn't have to all wear tin foil hats or something!
ok this is kind of making me mad because i can look back now and see where my brain started baking off in the bad directions now and boy oh boy i can really pinpoint it right to the way international!
Okay, not to heap on more, but consider what happened if we did DARE express some individuality of thought or understanding. . . . about anything really. . . . music, art, books, film.
Any idiot could recognize a deviation from TWI think. . . . the rebels stood out. . . . and anyone could say you were possessed of EVIL for having an individual thought. The scary thing is, I really do believe they heard something telling them this. . . . which actually made them all the more believable.
These are tortured and wasted minds. I remember. . . . I lived it!
Always being on guard. . . vigilant. . . has got to create some kind of anxiety disorder? Don't you think? Always watching and trying to outsmart the enemy. Even military get some R&R. . . . . .
It is no wonder many cult survivors have PTSD symptoms. . . . scary and intense stuff.
...People walking around thinking that God is speaking to them on a regular basis...hmmm, let me think about that for a minute...
...and it's not a "supernatural event" where you actually hear God speaking to you...it's a formula you learn in a class...first thought...right...as soon as you sit through this huckster's class, God turns on the live feed...mental illness? sure...as good a term as any to describe it.
...and it was always amusing to see the correlation between the nametag and the amount of "revelation" one received. Ego trips galore..."father told me..." The neophytes would marvel. It was a lifestyle...for some, they knew it was bull sh *t but for others...they were carried away by the flying monkeys from the wizard of Oz...they went too far and there were no bread crumb trails to find their way home.
It's funny...most people are herd animals...they want to belong to a group. My advice is to find a small group of friends...people you trust ( family also qualifies ), and when you see these God peddlers, flip them the bird...and then put on some Grateful Dead...
...as far as "Gods voice" goes...I'll let you know if I hear it.
Well, I`d say that the way they made *attention to detail* an excuse to indulge in obsessive or controlling behavior, being *spiritually angry* to excuse fits of rage, *renewed mind* to encourage the shutting out of any contrary thoughts or individuality, obedience to leaders even when it was to our disadvantage or even dangerous could certainly lead us into unhealthy mental state.
Yeah, I`d say that we became unable to make our own decisions, completely giving all power over to others, agonizing self recriminations whenever things went wrong because we were taught that we had blown it some how, always anxious trying to out manuver the adversary.
The fact that we spent years after leaving awaiting the death and destruction from the adversary promised us...agonizing over where God wanted us to be and what was his will, unable to fit into the community, kind of gives one an idea the extent of the damage inflicted.
The maker of the heavens and the earth. . . . was our own personal GPS in TWI. . . Lord ,do I take a right on Elm or a left? Which laundry detergent do I buy? Oh .. . and can you bless me with a good parking space for my rusted bucket of bolts that is unsafe to drive?
How about the idiots who were convinced that God was telling them the location of police "speed traps" so that they could flout the posted speed limits...as if obeying the law wasn't godly
How about the idiots who were convinced that God was telling them the location of police "speed traps" so that they could flout the posted speed limits...as if obeying the law wasn't godly
then you had idiots like me - rushing cuz I'm late for work or ministry meeting - believing God to make the red light go green "booms quick".
Well, I`d say that the way they made *attention to detail* an excuse to indulge in obsessive or controlling behavior, being *spiritually angry* to excuse fits of rage, *renewed mind* to encourage the shutting out of any contrary thoughts or individuality, obedience to leaders even when it was to our disadvantage or even dangerous could certainly lead us into unhealthy mental state.
"Attention to detail" isn't in and of itself a bad thing. If you met an artisan, officer of the law, or even a firefighter you'd agree that attention to detail is why they are successful in what they do. Surely twi took things to an extreme, but it's always necessary to separate the motive from the action.
Yeah, I`d say that we became unable to make our own decisions, completely giving all power over to others, agonizing self recriminations whenever things went wrong because we were taught that we had blown it some how, always anxious trying to out manuver the adversary.
WE?...WE?? Who's "we" kemosabe? many of us- maybe even most of us made our own decision to LEAVE early on. I don't know anyone personally who became unable to make his or her own decisions. I'd say that GSC is full of folks who made their own decision to leave.
These broad stroke claims are a disgrace. Sure, twi was phrucked up - and manipulating - but I refuse to give them credit they don't deserve. I've read plenty of posts where people have said that they knew something was off - and they were waiting for the opportunity to leave. Yes it was a complicated decision - but it was a decision all the same. A decision many if not most of us made on our own.
The fact that we spent years after leaving awaiting the death and destruction from the adversary promised us...agonizing over where God wanted us to be and what was his will, unable to fit into the community, kind of gives one an idea the extent of the damage inflicted.
Just who is "we" here"? I never experienced this nail-biting and waiting for some ghost from Christmas future. I didn't know anyone else who did either. You would do better to speak in much less general terms. It's not honest to do otherwise. You can certainly speak for yourself. You can even say that there are others like you. But to say "we" like it's all the posters at GSC who acted and felt the same way is almost arrogantly presumptuous. BTW - I am not awaiting death - I am enjoying watching my children mature and grow - and OH BTW - I never did wait for "the adversary" to come for me and I never agonized over such a thought set.
The day after I left twi, I got up, fed my family, went to work, came home and made dinner - then cleaned up and slept very well. Maybe I should post something like "we all got up, fed our families, went to work, came home and made dinner - then cleaned up and slept very well." Oh wait... I can't do that - because then I wouldn't be speaking just for myself- I'd be projecting my situation on EVERYBODY ELSE. Now that wouldn't be honest, would it?
How about the idiots who were convinced that God was telling them the location of police "speed traps" so that they could flout the posted speed limits...as if obeying the law wasn't godly
No, let me explain. . . we are in the world.. . . not of the world. . .and I always took that to mean the things like traffic laws . . . were more like guidelines. . . . or for our learning.
We are no longer under the law. . . maybe it means what it says and says what it means.
HEY. . . . . are you the one that mowed down that little Johnny from the first session of the class?!?
I havent read this whole thread but I have always thought that TWI was a breeding ground for mental illness.
Aside from the obvious like hearing voices and seeing devils which you can find in most psychiatric wards, Ive heard them rail against everyone from Mother Theresa to Martin Luther King then find something good to say about Hitler.
They were also the only bible group Ive ever heard of where you were more likely to hear cussing during a teaching or get yelled at than hear the name of Jesus.
Which is another thing--if you said Jesus without the Christ part you were probably possessed ....WTF??????
It was completely nuts--trying to believe the doctrine would defin itely make you batsh!t ,ill and in need of help
Wow, that sounds so familar and I thought that was just at my local twig, lol Seriously, It was how the Deity of Christ was taken from my life at least for 10 years. IT Was more of a scolded topic rather than a serious logical discussion.
The totally controlling mindset of leadership and the crushing of any idea that didn't originate from some sort of leadership was definitely unhealthy. Every "red flag" or shred of critical thinking was frowned upon. No praise for being able to think of a solution: just "you are leaning to your own understanding." Only giving people half the information they needed, deliberately withholding something that would make them more effective workers "so that they would learn to trust God." Requiring people to do things that went against common sense. Placing people in potentially dangerous situations without proper consideration or instruction.
Biggest thing of all was the all-pervasive fear that was engendered. A play on a love for God that was perverted into a fear of not pleasing God and then a fear of God (which was really fear of TWI). Fear - what PFAL was supposed to show us how to get rid of. That, coupled with too much teaching on devil spirits and not enough about the reality of the Grace-filled life we are supposed to lead. Because we were taught by UNGRACIOUS leaders.
And then, having given one's all to TWI, to get M&A'd and EVERYONE in one's (TWI-filled) world refusing to contact, speak to, have anything to do with. That policy of isolation was so very harmful to many. In fact, it's well-known that the likely consequence of severe and prolonged environmental restriction and social isolation is psychiatric illness. Long-term isolation of prisoners with no opportunity for social contact used to be practiced until it was found to cause more problems than it solved, because the prisoners became mentally deranged and thus too difficult to handle. Much worse than just being "institutionalized."
In effect, by teaching people how dangerous non-TWI people were, how dangerous other Christians were, how devil-possessed all psychiatrists, psychologists, and other therapists were, TWI had enclosed its (non)members in protective isolation so that the help that was needed was never accessible. Roll up, roll up! Build your own isolation unit at TWI, folks!
It's all grooming, insidious, and just as bad as a pedophile selecting the next victim.
Dooj has a point, that if one could make the decision to leave, one retained that element of control over one's own life.
If, however, one had been M&A'd or for some other reason not left voluntarily, Waybrain remains intact and may become even more entrenched.
Please view these comments in light of later years in TWI under the reign of terror of LCM and the micro-management that happened post-fog years.
For myself, I was deeply depressed - I believe mentally ill - and was unable to function properly, and rejected everyone and everything, until I discovered the Cafe and realized it wasn't ME that was wrong - it was them. It was like blinders being removed. The depression seemed to melt away, as snow in sunshine, and now I can laugh at how silly it all was. But it was mighty real at the time. There is no history of mental illness in any of my extended family on either side and neither had I had any problems before my involvement with TWI. Ergo, any illness was caused by TWI.
I don't think TWI lead people into mental illness. It's already been shown through studies that people prone to mental illness are disproportionately attracted to cults when compared to the general population. What I did notice across the board was a lack of ability for some to make decisions for their own benefit. They honestly believed that TWI was looking out for their best interest when that was clearly not the case.
While it was possible to exist within the framework of TWI and not let the organization run one's life, one could not move up the leadership ladder, or achieve a relatively high level of acceptance in the culture unless one was willing to let someone else run his/her life. That was the way it was. If one was not willing, then there were noises made about being "out of fellowship" which was wayspeak for being unmanageable and/or possessed. The fear of being out of fellowship or being possessed was and continues to be a strong deterrent to thinking outside the box provided by the organization. As a further note - pretty much every organization uses some system of spiritual "consequences" for failure to adhere to the system.
When I became involved with TWI, I already had a diagnosis from a few years back. For a time, I was OK under the structure that was TWI. However, almost immediately I felt I was being manipulated. For a while I thought it was just the person who got me to sign the green card. Once I took the class I realized the manipulation and over-involvement was system wide. Because I have been considered one who is "self-aware (that is most of the time I know when I have a problem)," I was able to see and avoid most of the attempts at manipulation by TWI leadership because I saw it as attempted coercion, manipulation, and over-involvement even if the perpetrators did not. I was able to maintain my boundaries, but the cost was being accused of being out of fellowship and being possessed. No one ever went so far as to call me mentally ill, mainly because it's not recognized in TWI. I was never asked to leave, but I did experience some level of shunning. The difference was that I didn't care enough to change in order to be accepted.
While I agree with Tzaia that people with mental illness already can be drawn to cults like TWI, I do think that it's also true that they caused mental problems for many. If you are in an abusive situation of any kind, you are likely to develop mental illness. We were "trained" to be mentally ill. Speaking in tongues, hearing voices, paranoia about devil spirits, deferring to leaders over listening to our own common sense, etc. all caused those of us who were in TWI during LCM's reign to have issues. I personally have never gone to talk to any professional about it because I think I've not had problems like many folks, I am aware of how I'm "different" as a result of growing up in TWI. I missed out on some things growing up, went overboard on others, and it resulted in me being a person who, while easily popular, still doesn't really feel comfortable anywhere.
Seems some of it could be a genetic propensity and some things caused by the environment we were exposed to. . . how much we internalized. . . . how much *self* was ceded. It is by no means a blanket assessment.
Some people walked away relatively unscathed. . . of their own volition. . .
The thing that struck me was hearing voices and obeying them. . . . we often put people on medication for this. . . TWI encouraged and rewarded people who heard God by way of revelation. . . . it was used as a tool to control. . . and we were trained to do it. . . . practice the presence of God, SIT, and listen to the small still voice in our heads.
Maybe it was just an attempt at honing intuition. . . I don't know. . . but, when you still have two or more rattling around in there. . . . it may be problematic.
When you are going against your natural inclinations of understanding and believing some strange stuff like Mstar pointed out. . . Mother Theresa bad. . . Hitler misunderstood. .. . it might cause some issues later on. . . .
I walked away on my own. . . took back my last ABS and basically got ticked off. . . . I am still disgusted.
Before I left I had to start making big girl decisions that ran contrary to much of TWI theology. Situation forced this on me. . . . made leaving fairly easy. . . . some people got the boot.
Since the WC thread I have been thinking about individuality within the group. . . I think I was wrong. . . it really does depend on the person.
I can see where anxiety might be an issue if someone's situation was different.
Has anyone ever stopped to consider that a "ministry" that prided itself in Biblical research and teaching found a way to systematically teach how to break all ten of the ten commandments?
The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-17 NKJV)1
"I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2"You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.
3"You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
4"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
5"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
6"You shall not murder.
7"You shall not commit adultery.
8"You shall not steal.
9"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10"You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's."
Consider how much inner conflict that would create for someone who really sat down and thought about what was going on around them?
Has anyone ever stopped to consider that a "ministry" that prided itself in Biblical research and teaching found a way to systematically teach how to break all ten of the ten commandments?
Consider how much inner conflict that would create for someone who really sat down and thought about what was going on around them?
Try pointing that out to someone back then.
Ironically, as people started emerging from TWI and talking honestly, many of them were well aware of the discrepancies when they were in, yet chose to ignore them, because it would be perilous not to. I was amazed at what people said after they got out. Everyone seemed to be hiding something.
Has anyone ever stopped to consider that a "ministry" that prided itself in Biblical research and teaching found a way to systematically teach how to break all ten of the ten commandments?
The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-17 NKJV) 1
"I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me."
I am the Victor your Weirwille who taught you PFAL and took you out of having a productive life. You shall have no other teachers before me
2 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.
Except when I die; then you can make a beautiful fountain with statues of me. For I, the Victor your Wierwille, am a jealous cult leader visiting the iniquity of the fathers unto the children by way of the cro-magnon LCM and unto the third generation by way of the Rivenshark from the boundless depths of fire, but show motor coach to those who love me and keep my commandments.
3 "You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
Thou shalt always refer to me as Doctor or The Doctor for I shall visit the JAL upon those who take the name Victor in vain.
4 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
Remember the Rock of Ages, to keep it holy. 12 months you shall labor and do all of my money making WOW schemes, but the last two weeks of August are the holy days of the Victor your Wierwille. In that you shall quit your jobs, leave your family, ignore your colleagues and travel to the corn field of life for I have blessed the Rock of Ages and made it holy.
5 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
Leave your father and mother and have them leave their property to me such that I have the land long and yea even to the end of ages.
6 "You shall not murder.
You shall not do anything more violent and abusive than me.
7 "You shall not commit adultery.
I will for you. What's your wife's name again?
8 "You shall not steal.
For I shall steal from you such that you are so broke and living so poorly that you cannot steal from me. Blue forms to tomorrow AM by 0900.
9 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall never bear witness to my drunken, abusive, adulterous, sexually and morally depraved lifestyle.
10"You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's."
You shall give your house to me and convince your neighbor to do so as well. While you're at it, do not try to covet and take his wife, for I the Victor your Wierwille will take her in the holy coach with motors. The taking of oxen and donkeys is against the commandment - however if you have a taste for dog or kiddie porn see me after the meeting.
good thinking stuff here and thanks a lot for the input, but please remember that "mental ill health" is not the same as "mentally ill" no more than being "hiv positive" is the same as having full blown aids, and there are things such as "situational" anxieties and "situational" depressions much like there are "situational" reactions like if you're allergic to shell fish and go out and eat a big shrimp dinner. and also try to remember not to rip at each other when replying here because even though i might say "us" and "we" i'm really not so dumb as to think "everybody" had the same reaction or the same thoughts or the same results as i did.
Good point. I wouldn't be surprised if ex-way people have a higher level of anxiety immediately after they leave the group than what is considered normal.
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brainfixed
yah it's like being in preschool or something and playing "mother may i" or something. it's kind of hit me square in the face why it took me so long to learn self determination but here the answer is
T-Bone
then you had idiots like me - rushing cuz I'm late for work or ministry meeting - believing God to make the red light go green "booms quick".
doojable
"Attention to detail" isn't in and of itself a bad thing. If you met an artisan, officer of the law, or even a firefighter you'd agree that attention to detail is why they are successful in what they
geisha779
*i'm no professional therapist or anything but i wouldn't think these things are mentally healthy things to practice.*
Okay, that is funny. . . . talk about an understatement. . . . how true!! :) Excellent!
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geisha779
The maker of the heavens and the earth. . . . was our own personal GPS in TWI. . . Lord ,do I take a right on Elm or a left? Which laundry detergent do I buy? Oh .. . and can you bless me with a good parking space for my rusted bucket of bolts that is unsafe to drive?
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brainfixed
yah it's like being in preschool or something and playing "mother may i" or something. it's kind of hit me square in the face why it took me so long to learn self determination but here the answer is right here on greasespot cafe and it's because i was raised in a cult that led people into a brain habit that made us think we had to have somebody or something holding our hand for every little thing like walking to kindergarten or somebody or something was going to get us and get us good and dead if we didn't tweak our brains and our habits just so and like this and i'm surprised we didn't have to all wear tin foil hats or something!
ok this is kind of making me mad because i can look back now and see where my brain started baking off in the bad directions now and boy oh boy i can really pinpoint it right to the way international!
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geisha779
Okay, not to heap on more, but consider what happened if we did DARE express some individuality of thought or understanding. . . . about anything really. . . . music, art, books, film.
Any idiot could recognize a deviation from TWI think. . . . the rebels stood out. . . . and anyone could say you were possessed of EVIL for having an individual thought. The scary thing is, I really do believe they heard something telling them this. . . . which actually made them all the more believable.
These are tortured and wasted minds. I remember. . . . I lived it!
Always being on guard. . . vigilant. . . has got to create some kind of anxiety disorder? Don't you think? Always watching and trying to outsmart the enemy. Even military get some R&R. . . . . .
It is no wonder many cult survivors have PTSD symptoms. . . . scary and intense stuff.
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waysider
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GrouchoMarxJr
...People walking around thinking that God is speaking to them on a regular basis...hmmm, let me think about that for a minute...
...and it's not a "supernatural event" where you actually hear God speaking to you...it's a formula you learn in a class...first thought...right...as soon as you sit through this huckster's class, God turns on the live feed...mental illness? sure...as good a term as any to describe it.
...and it was always amusing to see the correlation between the nametag and the amount of "revelation" one received. Ego trips galore..."father told me..." The neophytes would marvel. It was a lifestyle...for some, they knew it was bull sh *t but for others...they were carried away by the flying monkeys from the wizard of Oz...they went too far and there were no bread crumb trails to find their way home.
It's funny...most people are herd animals...they want to belong to a group. My advice is to find a small group of friends...people you trust ( family also qualifies ), and when you see these God peddlers, flip them the bird...and then put on some Grateful Dead...
...as far as "Gods voice" goes...I'll let you know if I hear it.
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rascal
Well, I`d say that the way they made *attention to detail* an excuse to indulge in obsessive or controlling behavior, being *spiritually angry* to excuse fits of rage, *renewed mind* to encourage the shutting out of any contrary thoughts or individuality, obedience to leaders even when it was to our disadvantage or even dangerous could certainly lead us into unhealthy mental state.
Yeah, I`d say that we became unable to make our own decisions, completely giving all power over to others, agonizing self recriminations whenever things went wrong because we were taught that we had blown it some how, always anxious trying to out manuver the adversary.
The fact that we spent years after leaving awaiting the death and destruction from the adversary promised us...agonizing over where God wanted us to be and what was his will, unable to fit into the community, kind of gives one an idea the extent of the damage inflicted.
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Oakspear
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T-Bone
then you had idiots like me - rushing cuz I'm late for work or ministry meeting - believing God to make the red light go green "booms quick".
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doojable
"Attention to detail" isn't in and of itself a bad thing. If you met an artisan, officer of the law, or even a firefighter you'd agree that attention to detail is why they are successful in what they do. Surely twi took things to an extreme, but it's always necessary to separate the motive from the action.
WE?...WE?? Who's "we" kemosabe? many of us- maybe even most of us made our own decision to LEAVE early on. I don't know anyone personally who became unable to make his or her own decisions. I'd say that GSC is full of folks who made their own decision to leave.
These broad stroke claims are a disgrace. Sure, twi was phrucked up - and manipulating - but I refuse to give them credit they don't deserve. I've read plenty of posts where people have said that they knew something was off - and they were waiting for the opportunity to leave. Yes it was a complicated decision - but it was a decision all the same. A decision many if not most of us made on our own.
Just who is "we" here"? I never experienced this nail-biting and waiting for some ghost from Christmas future. I didn't know anyone else who did either. You would do better to speak in much less general terms. It's not honest to do otherwise. You can certainly speak for yourself. You can even say that there are others like you. But to say "we" like it's all the posters at GSC who acted and felt the same way is almost arrogantly presumptuous. BTW - I am not awaiting death - I am enjoying watching my children mature and grow - and OH BTW - I never did wait for "the adversary" to come for me and I never agonized over such a thought set.
The day after I left twi, I got up, fed my family, went to work, came home and made dinner - then cleaned up and slept very well. Maybe I should post something like "we all got up, fed our families, went to work, came home and made dinner - then cleaned up and slept very well." Oh wait... I can't do that - because then I wouldn't be speaking just for myself- I'd be projecting my situation on EVERYBODY ELSE. Now that wouldn't be honest, would it?
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geisha779
No, let me explain. . . we are in the world.. . . not of the world. . .and I always took that to mean the things like traffic laws . . . were more like guidelines. . . . or for our learning.
We are no longer under the law. . . maybe it means what it says and says what it means.
HEY. . . . . are you the one that mowed down that little Johnny from the first session of the class?!?
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mstar1
I havent read this whole thread but I have always thought that TWI was a breeding ground for mental illness.
Aside from the obvious like hearing voices and seeing devils which you can find in most psychiatric wards, Ive heard them rail against everyone from Mother Theresa to Martin Luther King then find something good to say about Hitler.
They were also the only bible group Ive ever heard of where you were more likely to hear cussing during a teaching or get yelled at than hear the name of Jesus.
Which is another thing--if you said Jesus without the Christ part you were probably possessed ....WTF??????
It was completely nuts--trying to believe the doctrine would defin itely make you batsh!t ,ill and in need of help
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afriendinJesus
Wow, that sounds so familar and I thought that was just at my local twig, lol Seriously, It was how the Deity of Christ was taken from my life at least for 10 years. IT Was more of a scolded topic rather than a serious logical discussion.
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Twinky
The totally controlling mindset of leadership and the crushing of any idea that didn't originate from some sort of leadership was definitely unhealthy. Every "red flag" or shred of critical thinking was frowned upon. No praise for being able to think of a solution: just "you are leaning to your own understanding." Only giving people half the information they needed, deliberately withholding something that would make them more effective workers "so that they would learn to trust God." Requiring people to do things that went against common sense. Placing people in potentially dangerous situations without proper consideration or instruction.
Biggest thing of all was the all-pervasive fear that was engendered. A play on a love for God that was perverted into a fear of not pleasing God and then a fear of God (which was really fear of TWI). Fear - what PFAL was supposed to show us how to get rid of. That, coupled with too much teaching on devil spirits and not enough about the reality of the Grace-filled life we are supposed to lead. Because we were taught by UNGRACIOUS leaders.
And then, having given one's all to TWI, to get M&A'd and EVERYONE in one's (TWI-filled) world refusing to contact, speak to, have anything to do with. That policy of isolation was so very harmful to many. In fact, it's well-known that the likely consequence of severe and prolonged environmental restriction and social isolation is psychiatric illness. Long-term isolation of prisoners with no opportunity for social contact used to be practiced until it was found to cause more problems than it solved, because the prisoners became mentally deranged and thus too difficult to handle. Much worse than just being "institutionalized."
In effect, by teaching people how dangerous non-TWI people were, how dangerous other Christians were, how devil-possessed all psychiatrists, psychologists, and other therapists were, TWI had enclosed its (non)members in protective isolation so that the help that was needed was never accessible. Roll up, roll up! Build your own isolation unit at TWI, folks!
It's all grooming, insidious, and just as bad as a pedophile selecting the next victim.
Dooj has a point, that if one could make the decision to leave, one retained that element of control over one's own life.
If, however, one had been M&A'd or for some other reason not left voluntarily, Waybrain remains intact and may become even more entrenched.
Please view these comments in light of later years in TWI under the reign of terror of LCM and the micro-management that happened post-fog years.
For myself, I was deeply depressed - I believe mentally ill - and was unable to function properly, and rejected everyone and everything, until I discovered the Cafe and realized it wasn't ME that was wrong - it was them. It was like blinders being removed. The depression seemed to melt away, as snow in sunshine, and now I can laugh at how silly it all was. But it was mighty real at the time. There is no history of mental illness in any of my extended family on either side and neither had I had any problems before my involvement with TWI. Ergo, any illness was caused by TWI.
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Tzaia
I don't think TWI lead people into mental illness. It's already been shown through studies that people prone to mental illness are disproportionately attracted to cults when compared to the general population. What I did notice across the board was a lack of ability for some to make decisions for their own benefit. They honestly believed that TWI was looking out for their best interest when that was clearly not the case.
While it was possible to exist within the framework of TWI and not let the organization run one's life, one could not move up the leadership ladder, or achieve a relatively high level of acceptance in the culture unless one was willing to let someone else run his/her life. That was the way it was. If one was not willing, then there were noises made about being "out of fellowship" which was wayspeak for being unmanageable and/or possessed. The fear of being out of fellowship or being possessed was and continues to be a strong deterrent to thinking outside the box provided by the organization. As a further note - pretty much every organization uses some system of spiritual "consequences" for failure to adhere to the system.
When I became involved with TWI, I already had a diagnosis from a few years back. For a time, I was OK under the structure that was TWI. However, almost immediately I felt I was being manipulated. For a while I thought it was just the person who got me to sign the green card. Once I took the class I realized the manipulation and over-involvement was system wide. Because I have been considered one who is "self-aware (that is most of the time I know when I have a problem)," I was able to see and avoid most of the attempts at manipulation by TWI leadership because I saw it as attempted coercion, manipulation, and over-involvement even if the perpetrators did not. I was able to maintain my boundaries, but the cost was being accused of being out of fellowship and being possessed. No one ever went so far as to call me mentally ill, mainly because it's not recognized in TWI. I was never asked to leave, but I did experience some level of shunning. The difference was that I didn't care enough to change in order to be accepted.
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Mister P-Mosh
While I agree with Tzaia that people with mental illness already can be drawn to cults like TWI, I do think that it's also true that they caused mental problems for many. If you are in an abusive situation of any kind, you are likely to develop mental illness. We were "trained" to be mentally ill. Speaking in tongues, hearing voices, paranoia about devil spirits, deferring to leaders over listening to our own common sense, etc. all caused those of us who were in TWI during LCM's reign to have issues. I personally have never gone to talk to any professional about it because I think I've not had problems like many folks, I am aware of how I'm "different" as a result of growing up in TWI. I missed out on some things growing up, went overboard on others, and it resulted in me being a person who, while easily popular, still doesn't really feel comfortable anywhere.
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geisha779
Seems some of it could be a genetic propensity and some things caused by the environment we were exposed to. . . how much we internalized. . . . how much *self* was ceded. It is by no means a blanket assessment.
PTSD symptoms are probably related to how much one believed their life was in actual danger. http://www.freedomof.../ptsd-cuddy.htm
Some people walked away relatively unscathed. . . of their own volition. . .
The thing that struck me was hearing voices and obeying them. . . . we often put people on medication for this. . . TWI encouraged and rewarded people who heard God by way of revelation. . . . it was used as a tool to control. . . and we were trained to do it. . . . practice the presence of God, SIT, and listen to the small still voice in our heads.
Maybe it was just an attempt at honing intuition. . . I don't know. . . but, when you still have two or more rattling around in there. . . . it may be problematic.
When you are going against your natural inclinations of understanding and believing some strange stuff like Mstar pointed out. . . Mother Theresa bad. . . Hitler misunderstood. .. . it might cause some issues later on. . . .
I walked away on my own. . . took back my last ABS and basically got ticked off. . . . I am still disgusted.
Before I left I had to start making big girl decisions that ran contrary to much of TWI theology. Situation forced this on me. . . . made leaving fairly easy. . . . some people got the boot.
Since the WC thread I have been thinking about individuality within the group. . . I think I was wrong. . . it really does depend on the person.
I can see where anxiety might be an issue if someone's situation was different.
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doojable
Has anyone ever stopped to consider that a "ministry" that prided itself in Biblical research and teaching found a way to systematically teach how to break all ten of the ten commandments?
Consider how much inner conflict that would create for someone who really sat down and thought about what was going on around them?
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Tzaia
Try pointing that out to someone back then.
Ironically, as people started emerging from TWI and talking honestly, many of them were well aware of the discrepancies when they were in, yet chose to ignore them, because it would be perilous not to. I was amazed at what people said after they got out. Everyone seemed to be hiding something.
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RumRunner
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brainfixed
good thinking stuff here and thanks a lot for the input, but please remember that "mental ill health" is not the same as "mentally ill" no more than being "hiv positive" is the same as having full blown aids, and there are things such as "situational" anxieties and "situational" depressions much like there are "situational" reactions like if you're allergic to shell fish and go out and eat a big shrimp dinner. and also try to remember not to rip at each other when replying here because even though i might say "us" and "we" i'm really not so dumb as to think "everybody" had the same reaction or the same thoughts or the same results as i did.
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geisha779
"Consider how much inner conflict that would create for someone who really sat down and thought about what was going on around them?"
Also affectionately known as Cognitive Dissonance. . . . .
Good times
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doojable
And another thing...
We were actually taught to be afraid of...
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wait for it...
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wait for it...
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.FEAR!
:wacko:
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waterbuffalo
Good point. I wouldn't be surprised if ex-way people have a higher level of anxiety immediately after they leave the group than what is considered normal.
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