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Are Your Kids Still Involved?


JeffSjo
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I lost both my parents after leaving TWI, and I was thankful--not for losing them to terminal illnesses, but that we were out of TWI and didn't have to hear their cruel blame and shame spiel at that time.

Sad, too, so many of the wafers are in or entering the golden years when it is not unknown to lose a spouse. What a horrible time to come down on someone and look for fault to prove their ugly doctrine.

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I'm sorry for your losses, Bramble and thankful, too, that you didn't have to hear their crap. For me when my husband died while we were still encased in their silliness it was a fantastic excuse, yes, to blame me, blame a dead man, blame anything/anyone. The reality is that he died, the end. Nothing else. The other reality is that he was responsible for his own death.

My children were told, recently, that I was responsible for their fathers death. I can only imagine how that flew into their brains and yes, the information came from TWI and others.

"Your mom didn't love him didn't take care of him"

"Your mom gave him ________ medicine when he was not feeling good that day"

"Your mom started CPR on your dad before calling 911, wasting precious time"

It goes on......

The fact is that their dad had massive heart problems that he ignored and the damage was such that his death was but a matter of time at the rate and style of life he was living. Of course since I was his primary meal preparer, his diet was my fault. Since I was his helpmate, I failed. Since I was his first prayer partner, I failed to believe God and back up my husband. I failed, the end. He'd still be alive today were it not for me. These are the things my children hear. And worse, now, when my eldest is recovering from major surgery, they dropped more of this stuff on her.

If TWI and others can blame me they don't have to look at their own hand in the death? Yeah, maybe so. But it was with anger and further sorrow that I offered my children the Autopsy results from a Coroner's office. Not that they insisted or even asked, but I needed them to have the counter balance of accusations. What is maddening is that a 14 year old has to be offered her fathers Autopsy report and toxilcology screening results.

I believe that my step brother's wife killed him and I shall not be convinced otherwise; there were no remains to autopsy, no blood work done since she had him cremated within 24 hours of his death. I know what that feels like to wonder and question. I get it, is my point.

What pizses me off in our case is that they didn't have the courage to confront me, directly, as to my husbands death; to ask me their pained questions that anyone might normally have when a seemingly healthy young man of 35 suddenly drops dead. They told my children what they were so sure was true. I would have welcomed their questions, their need to know, their curiosity and concern that would have been expected even.

What they didn't understand, and assumingly never will, is that my kids are strong women, smart women and they don't fall under the stupidity of such insults to their mama. TWI can not get to my babies, no matter how many times they have tried, and continue to try.

We're 13 years out of TWI almost now and even in the last 2 days the accusations have continued. It is a part of our lives and I guess it shall be. My children are not involved, no, but they have to deal with it, still.

What a shame.

Maybe my children are still involved............I just know that I am no longer responsible for it. Maybe that's enough. Maybe it's not.

Edited by Shellon
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Shellon, Bramble, Jeffsio, I admire you for sharing your painful experiences - thank you. Thank you for reminding us that we can retain our humanity in the face of destructive accusations and assertions propounded by what masquerades as godly religion.

These stories raise all sorts of ethical and moral issues, not to mention how they serve to show where compassion is NOT found.

My heart goes out to you...my sufferings post-twi were minor compared with your grievous losses. Your bravery inspires.

Thank you,

Pen

Edited by penworks
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People post about the 'kinder, gentler sweetie pie ministry' but I don't believe it. Not while they still hold to the same doctrines about illness and death, not when they never apologise or try to reconcil with those they've hurt with their doctrine, not when they still have former members demonized for make believe issues like negative believing.

Massive heart attacks are just that, massive and fast. Sometimes there is nothing anyone or medical help can do to save that life. My bro in law died of a sudden widow maker heart attack, and he'd had a physical just a month before and got a clean bill of health, a fit outdoorsy guy. Gone in minutes.

The TWi expectation that you would have revelation--know the future-- to keep something from happening is bizarre and impossible for a human. Know future events? Really, we can guess guess, speculate, look at experience--but we don't know the day and hour. We can't know the future. We are humans! Insane to hold that type of expectation and to demonize those who didn't pull it off and have that 'victory'.

Impossible expectations. Its like those wacko groups that withhold food from a baby because its crying. Impossible expectation, cruel and unhealthy. Then they wonder why their 3 month old weighs 7lbs and isn't thriving. Somebody must be possessed!

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It is the application of the doctrine of believing that is responsible in a lot of ways for much of the amoral and reprehensible behavior of some of these folks.

Why, you could have believed god and fixed it! What a load of crap!

Trying to seperate children from their parents and parents from their children in God's name....vile, vile behavior that is much more befitting nazi Germany's social programs, or the late soviet empire's indoctrination attempts in order to wipe out religion from their country! And the fact that it is done in God's name makes it even more twisted, vile, and reprehensible IMO.

Far from healthy human interaction which IMO only leaves the fruit in their life to represent a wasteland as pertaining to love and compassion. I can almost hear the winds blowing over the desert wasteland devoid of fruitfulness while the insane ones congradulate themselves not recognizing the terrible cost of their false ways.

Raising kids without natural affection, turning from families who love them and embracing an unatural affection, where the Father in the Word (so-called) drugs and abuses his own daughters and crushes his own sons under his spiritual authority. Leaving the children looking under rocks, seeking an enemy falsely so-called who only desires to love her own children. Unable to cope with the truth that it is their own vile ways that ruin families, break hearts, abuses the vulnerable, and marginalizes each and every upright soul who seeks to help them.

Bring it on!

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I'm on a tear, can't get this one off my brain today. I want to provide those who would continue to involve my children in their shi+, or here's the latest one; actually blame my children, with mirrors. Let 'em look in the reflection, let 'em smash them, I couldn't care less today.

WTF?

This mornings accusations are that if I'd taken my eldest to doctors sooner, she'd not have had the severe Endometriosis that has required the Hysterectomy she just had three days ago. Additionally, I should have seen that my youngest had the health problems that are making the quality of her life right now less than the "best". Finally, had I not dropped the ball on my believing where their dad was concerned that brought about his death, he'd be here to handle our children's health issues "right".

Are my kids still involved? Yes.

Edited by Shellon
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I can see we are both worked up today. I don't mind it at all Shellon. :~)

But at least your daughters see through this stuff. And I'm guessing because of our past it might very well be a bigger problem to us than to them. But then they are our wounds more than their's IMO.

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What pizses me off in our case is that they didn't have the courage to confront me, directly, as to my husbands death; to ask me their pained questions that anyone might normally have when a seemingly healthy young man of 35 suddenly drops dead. They told my children what they were so sure was true. I would have welcomed their questions, their need to know, their curiosity and concern that would have been expected even.

Maybe my children are still involved............I just know that I am no longer responsible for it. Maybe that's enough. Maybe it's not.

Well of course they aren't talking to you, but that doesn't mean you can't pick up the phone and ask them why they are talking to your children instead of you - that because of your children's ages when your husband's death occurred, that the situation surrounding your husband's death can't be discussed with the level of accuracy that's needed. You could take that time to wonder out loud where their believing was as obviously whatever they were doing failed to cover the household.

Sheesh. The sudden death of your husband and the aftermath was enough of a tragedy without having to deal with this sort of intrusion 13 years later.

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People post about the 'kinder, gentler sweetie pie ministry' but I don't believe it. Not while they still hold to the same doctrines about illness and death, not when they never apologise or try to reconcil with those they've hurt with their doctrine, not when they still have former members demonized for make believe issues like negative believing.

Well, I lived through this type of treatment and it was just a couple short years ago. The only help I got from those I asked, with the exception on one individual, was to put it all on my wife and I by saying that when we were ready we would receive the deliverance for our son that God wanted to give. Basically it was inferred that it was our fault. This came at a time where I had spent a year and a half immersed in all of TWI's teachings on the law of believing, receiving this or that, manifestations of holy spirit, Ad infinitum - Ad nauseam. We had worked ourselves into a frenzy to "claim" his deliverance. It was epic fail. Anyway.

Later, when one of the inept directors was involved it became clear that he was had two purposes, and they were in this order. 1 - keep us on staff and ,as way corps, in line with the directors desires for us. Even though our situation was complicated by an hour drive to one medical center and a two hour drive to the other medical center where he would be, and is getting a lot of care. 2. - To find out what was going wrong with us that would impede our believing to receive deliverance for our son. Again, it was our fault.

End result? - We moved where we needed to be to ease the strain on our family and disregarded all the subtle, and not so subtle, accusations that we as the parents were responsible and impeding deliverance for our son's disease. We then promptly sent a letter of resignation, and have freed ourselves from these effects of their evil actions, taken in the name of God. As for the bumbling, inept director? During one of our "sessions" my wife handed him our son and asked that he minister to him. He took him, looked at him for a minute and handed him back w/o even praying for him.

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I agree on the old wounds being ours, Jeff. What rips my guts is that people know the best way to get to someone; through their children.

So much of TWI, for me, has been and continues to be how NOT to treat people.

In 1982 I first too PFAL and speedily understood I'd fallen in some pretty serious sewage that required me to figure out how to play the game(s).

I'm not shocked by anything they do, I'm not even necessarily hurt by anything they do. Unless they mess with my kids.

I'm preaching to the Choir, I get that.

During one of our "sessions" my wife handed him our son and asked that he minister to him. He took him, looked at him for a minute and handed him back w/o even praying for him.

mad2.gif

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Well of course they aren't talking to you, but that doesn't mean you can't pick up the phone and ask them why they are talking to your children instead of you - that because of your children's ages when your husband's death occurred, that the situation surrounding your husband's death can't be discussed with the level of accuracy that's needed. You could take that time to wonder out loud where their believing was as obviously whatever they were doing failed to cover the household.

Sheesh. The sudden death of your husband and the aftermath was enough of a tragedy without having to deal with this sort of intrusion 13 years later.

Hi Tzaia, while I appreciate your suggestions I am not able to pick up the phone and ask them why. I am already aware, as has been stated; to get to me, to make sure my children "know the truth".

If you want to make a huge mug of something enjoyable and take the time, the entire story of "what happened" is here

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/20442-expressions-of-freedom/

And not to mention that the situation surrounding my husband's death doesn't need to be discussed as to what my children know, how they know it or who tells them what.

Every disgusting detail, every painful memory, every action taken by doctors, paramedics and their mother has been told my children. This should have never had to be done, had others not approached them and made those kinds of questions necessary.

This necessitated my answering their questions honestly. Some of the details surrounding his death are still quite painful to even me. Not specifics that children need to have in their heads.

Now, on the other hand, my children and I are straight up about everything; there isn't a subject that is off limits in our house as far as questions and honest answers. So, this one need not be either if they have questions.

And surely one can understand how painful it is for two smart young women to have to reconcile how those that find it necessary to hurt them with information, hurt their momther and obviously cause pain, can still profess to love them.

These intrusions have been a constant dull throb for the 13 years since his death and it's required conversation WAY past what should have been healthy exchanges for me and my girls. But........we'll keep doing it if my girls have questions or need comfort.

I know why they're doing it, I know what their goal is, I understand their pain too, even and I have the utmost trust and surety in my daughters as to their handling of such intrusions; hell, they encourage me often more than I them.

I can understand if you've not read our story or not had the blessing of knowing my children. Amazing women, they. If they weren't my kids, I would sure want them to be my friends. They are the best parts of their father, the better parts of who I am.

I'm a realist, I know that any relations in or out of TWI are potentially violatile; I accept what is. I made the decisions I did in leaving TWI fully aware of the consequences and ramifications therein. This issue was one I spent significant thought time on and knew I was ready. That end doesn't necessarily make what I knew would happen less painful when it happened; just kept the shock at bay.

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Shellon,

I'm so sorry to read about the krap surrounding you and your girls. It's a sad testimony to those family members still engulfed in the cesspool known as twi that they need to find someone to blame for their hurt. It certainly is misplaced and uncalled for. It certainly isn't Christian. Hell... why do they insist on laying blame for health issues?

Isn't it ironic that we often heard that verse read where the disciples asked Jesus why a certain man was blind? They wanted to know who to blame - the parents or the man himself. Jesus said it wasn't neither. Yet the "believe and receive" crowd somehow know better. *SPIT*

I tell you what... blame it all on me. I did it all. Blame every famine, pestilence, death, destruction, war, hurricane, earthquake, ear infection, typhoon, and runny nose on me. Now there is no one else to blame.

Makes about the same amount of sense as blaming anyone else... doesn't it?

Listen up you so-called believers in twi and it's various spawn of the devil (I mean splinters - splinters - they get under your nails and cause infection)... what you believe is a lie. You know it or else you would know how to deal with your pain and grief in a manner that is healthy. Instead you try to squeeze life and death into your twi-dimensional world and doctrines. Life is bigger than your walls of Zion. Your doctrine has left you so emotionally inept that you don't know how to just grieve. You are like caged animals growling and snarling at any passerby - even those that might be loving and friendly. You are making your own prison with your "doctrine of deliverance."

The next time you stand up in a Sunday night service and sing "We've Got a Great Big Wonderful God" make sure you remind yourself that you're lying to yourselves. Either He is great and wonderful and you've reduced him to a petty publican who exacts his pound of flesh at the slightest mis-step, or He is neither great nor wonderful and you are sacrificing innocents for your crops to be plentiful and your conscience to be assuaged. Your actions make known your complete and utter hypocrisy.

There... now my rant is done... for now...

Edited by doojable
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Well - me being my usual non-opinionated self...

I don't think you owe anyone any damm explanation about your kids, about family, about death. I understand the original question of this thread...but I'll be dammed if I am going to explain, justify, heh heh or perhaps mortify, people with how I raised my kids without TWI, without mythical/mystical explanations about death and believing, without explaining all of the "family" rot that was taught in the cyclops' cult.

I got bad news for all of you "believers." You're all gonna die too...so relax and enjoy the ride while you got it.

Shellon - you are the epitome of strength and integrity. Bramble - you don't sound so bad yerself. Most people get at least a modicum of sympathy during a family death - you got emotionally raped instead - due to the great spiritual guidance of the great TWI leadership - due to the incredible stupidity of people who don't realize they are next in line for death.

There is a solution...an age old medicine called Fukitol...whereby you can ignore idiots, believers, morons, ideologists...and just sit back and ENJOY your time with your children and loved ones without anyone else judging you. Remember Fukitol - all day - every day.

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  • 4 years later...

I'm not still involved and I was raised in it. It was both hard and easy to leave. It was harder to leave because I grew up in it and most of my family was involved. It was easy because I saw all the hate and bs over the years.

I'm kind of terrified my own kids will get involved because of my mom and siblings. My kids won't grow up in it - they won't know any better. I'm glad they won't have my experiences growing up but I think it will put them at a disadvantage. My mom makes our horrible time in TWI sound magical.

I'm kind of hoping TWI will just die out at some point but I'm also worried about off shoots sucking my family in afterwards.

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I'm not still involved and I was raised in it. It was both hard and easy to leave. It was harder to leave because I grew up in it and most of my family was involved. It was easy because I saw all the hate and bs over the years.

I'm kind of terrified my own kids will get involved because of my mom and siblings. My kids won't grow up in it - they won't know any better. I'm glad they won't have my experiences growing up but I think it will put them at a disadvantage. My mom makes our horrible time in TWI sound magical.

I'm kind of hoping TWI will just die out at some point but I'm also worried about off shoots sucking my family in afterwards.

I'm sure you've probably already done this, but tell them. Steel them about what's coming up. Kids listen more to their parents than we realize. Sometimes they act like they don't. My daughter sat through the Geer thing and I about had a nervous breakdown. One of her aunts paid for it. It was at a "family camp". Eeesh! Anyway, I sat her down and first of all tried to convince her not to go but she was 18 and she wanted to prove it. So then I just told her what was coming, what people would probably say to her. She came and said, "Wow, you were right!" She never engaged the process. Close call but the end result is she understands me and her mother a lot better. I wouldn't recommend putting your kid through PFAL, but in my case, it all worked out.

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I can see my mom paying for my kids to go to a class. I'll try to talk to them as they get bigger. My son is only 2 and I always worry about what I should say without making myself sound disrespectful towards my family.

I'll try to explain to him how he should expect to be treated.

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