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Thus Saith Paul

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This guy rides me for not reading the link he provided, then rides me for reading it and checking his source.

So you found one guy who seems to agree with one aspect of some thesis you pulled out of your poopchute, and I'm not allowed to check the credibility and validity of your crackpot uneducated  homophobic source? How convenient for you!

 

https://www.9marks.org/answer/what-gospel-kingdom/

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjHuo3y6KPiAhWJc98KHaCCDNcQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gotquestions.org%2Fgospel-of-the-kingdom.html&psig=AOvVaw0yftM3KwWHgQ1bhWtyt2mq&ust=1558225612369864

 

I could list more, but to be perfectly honest, I got the whole "gospel is the kingdom" message straight from scripture and not from a homophobic former Marine whose credentials i didn't bother to check before I cited him as some authority on scripture.

Why am I the only one letting scripture speak for itself instead of pretending unrelated verses are talking about the same thing?

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"No intelligent student of the Scriptures believes, or teaches, that there is only one gospel in the Scriptures…”

– J.C. O’Hair. Unsearchable Riches of Christ. p 131.

Edited by TLC

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"the scriptures tell us that Paul was preaching the EXACT same gospel which he had previously destroyed! You can show scripture passages like this to those who believe them, and yet they will still hold fast to their false and demonic teachings like stubborn donkeys"

 

--some dude on the Internet who made me giggle.

Edited by Raf

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O'Hair was a hyperdispensationalist.

Wierwille said many bitter, nasty things about people who disagreed with him. And people who disagreed with him said many nasty, bitter things about Wierwille.

Accuracy is not determined by the quality of a researcher's name-calling acumen

Edited by Raf

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23 hours ago, Raf said:

O'Hair was a hyperdispensationalist.

no chit, Sherlock. it wasn't the only thing he was right about...

(But because it disagrees with your theology, or lack thereof, you apparently think that branding axiomatically makes them wrong and you right about any and everything you choose to finger.) 

23 hours ago, Raf said:

Wierwille said many bitter, nasty things about people who disagreed with him. And people who disagreed with him said many nasty, bitter things about Wierwille.

Accuracy is not determined by the quality of a researcher's name-calling acumen

So is TWI where you picked it up, or was it merely a matter of honing some natural, genetically gifted, talent?

Edited by TLC

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1 hour ago, TLC said:

it wasn't the only thing he was right about...

That topic belong somewhere else.

edit: regarding dispensations/ dispensationalism.

Edited by waysider
  • Like 1

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Not all Christians accept hyperdispensationalism, and it's really a pity that you have to go against the Bible's clear teaching, denying that Paul preached the gospel of the kingdom as noted numerous times in Acts, to force the Bible to conform to your preconceived notion.

Hyperdispensationalism holds that there is a new adminstration/dispensation that begins in the middle of Acts. The Bible doesn't support this. Paul, according to Acts, preaches the gospel of the kingdom, the precise gospel that the 12 taught. 

In any event, Mr. O'Hair's namecalling does not validate his exegesis. In fact, it seems a pretty desperate attempt to call attention away from the weakness of his position.

7 hours ago, TLC said:

So is TWI where you picked it up, or was it merely a matter of honing some natural, genetically gifted, talent?

Over and over again, I am trying to return to the issues we are discussing. Over and over again, you are taking shots at me and not at the points I'm raising. I trust this is the last time I will have to tell you to keep our conversation about the topic and not about the posters.

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7 hours ago, TLC said:

(But because it disagrees with your theology, or lack thereof, you apparently think that branding axiomatically makes them wrong and you right about any and everything you choose to finger.) 

On 5/18/2019 at 10:58 AM, Raf said:

Actually, my point in bringing that up was to note that the vast majority of Christians believe hyperdispensationalism is inaccurate and ungodly. You have to question the legitimacy of an interpretational framework that eluded all Christianity from 70 AD until the 1800s. Dispensationalism, and especially hyperdispensationalism, cannot be supported Biblically unless you bend over backwards to force the Bible to say things it just doesn't say. Things like "Jesus never told the 12 to go to the Gentiles" when he did exactly that.

Regardless, I find it interesting that you don't post O'Hair's analysis or his findings. Just his namecalling. It's the kind of behavior I would expect from someone who lacked confidence in his position and so wants to cut the other side down with insults. Surely you have a better argument than a long dead namecaller whose position has been rejected by mainstream Christianity.

 

 

Edited by Raf
  • Like 1

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20 hours ago, Raf said:

Not all Christians accept hyperdispensationalism, and it's really a pity that you have to go against the Bible's clear teaching, denying that Paul preached the gospel of the kingdom as noted numerous times in Acts, to force the Bible to conform to your preconceived notion.

Hyperdispensationalism holds that there is a new adminstration/dispensation that begins in the middle of Acts. The Bible doesn't support this. Paul, according to Acts, preaches the gospel of the kingdom, the precise gospel that the 12 taught. 

You are not a bible scholar, nor the hot shot expert, nor the authority, nor whatever other scriptural or "biblical" pundit it is that you purport yourself to be with your blusterous claim "the Bible doesn't support this."  The fact (which you rather intentionally omit) is that some number of very real biblical scholars do accept it, and offer plenty of scriptural support for it.

19 hours ago, Raf said:

Regardless, I find it interesting that you don't post O'Hair's analysis or his findings.

It is neither my job nor duty to present, inform, or otherwise try to educate you on what others have or haven't said on the matter.  To repeat something just stated in a recent post, think whatever you want to think about it.  I am confident that if anyone ever has the heart to really care about and know what the real truth of what dispensations are or mean in scripture, I don't doubt that they can and will (with the help of the Lord) eventually arrive at a better understanding of them, and of the differences (i.e., betterments) inherent within the gospel that was first given to Paul.    

Furthermore, I don't see (scripturally) that it was the "majority" that were ever right about the things of God, at any time throughout all of history.  So, why (or since when) do "the vast majority" of any church or intellectuals ever add any great credence or credibility to what the truth of scripture is?  

However, for any that are interested in learning more or reading a fairly scholarly approach to this issue of dispensations, I'll offer the following book (not that I necessarily agree 100% with it) and what appears to be a reasonably decent review of it.

Dispensationalism, by Dr. Charles C. Ryrie

https://drreluctant.wordpress.com/2007/02/27/a-review-of-dispensationalism-by-charles-c-ryrie/

Edited by TLC

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still haven't demonstrated that Jesus didn't tell the 12 to preach to the gentiles (because he did) or that Paul preached a gospel  different from the 12 (because he didn't).

There were differences between what Paul taught and what the 12 taught, but according to the Bible  those differences were not the gospel.

You asked a specific question

 It was answered according to the Bible and ever since you have been twisting the Bible to conform to your preconception rather than just admit your preconception was incorrect.

Feel free to continue in your stubborn refusal to admit the Bible specifically says what you claim it dies not. I think I've embarrassed you enough.

 

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For an hour the young man pestered Zane about when the church began, water baptism, the primacy of Paul’s epistles, and many issues that were important to him. Though he asked many questions, he would always rebut whatever answer Zane gave. He appeared to be there to try to persuade Zane. Not to learn. At the end of the hour the young man said, “So when can we meet again?” I learned much from Zane’s answer, “We won’t meet again. You are not teachable. You are not open to the truth of God’s Word. It would be a waste of time to meet with you further.” 

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The above quote is cited to establish that I am not tiring of the stupid argument that's being presented because I am atheist -- faithful Christians likewise find themselves unable to deal with the stubborn silliness of ultradispensationalists.

If you would like me to refute the stupidity of ultradispensationalism from a skeptical atheistic perspective  say the word. Until now I have been content to show that faithful Christians think it's stupid.   

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1 hour ago, Raf said:

still haven't demonstrated that Jesus didn't tell the 12 to preach to the gentiles

you know, after my second or third post addressing this, any dweeb that would have stopped long enough to take the wax out of their ears (or the blinders off their eyes), probably would have realized the point originally intended in that comment was to delineate the initial focus (and directive) for the 12 as being (foremost) to all Israel.

Matter of fact, if that were not so, then why oh why is it so plainly written in Acts that it was to go to them first? Or that Paul thought it "necessary"?

Acts 3:26  Unto you first...
Acts 13:46 ...It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you

But, whatever... do or think whatever you want.  Anything to continue disrupting or distracting from the real issue(s) at hand...

Edited by TLC

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Acts 3 is not a reference to the gospel.

Acts 13 does not say Jesus ordered the 12 to speak to Israel first. It is literally talking about Paul and Barnabas. You literally said the opposite. They said they needed to speak to the Jews first. Why? It wasn't because that was Jesus' command. Jesus' command was disciple all nations. Why did they speak to Israel first? Because that's what the 12 actually did. Paul is not here saying JESUS told him to go to Israel first. 

Biblically, Paul could say he was obliged to go to Israel first, but it does not appear he can say that was the Lord's instruction. Rather, he is quoting Isaiah 49:6, which has nothing to do with a different gospel being preached to Israel than to the Gentiles. Rather, even in Isaiah, it is the same grace of God that He extends to Israel that he promises to extend to the Gentiles as well.

Paul and Barnabas are not proclaiming ultradispensationalism here. They are not proclaiming a new instruction. They felt is necessary to go to the Jews first because that's what every Christian before them has done. But unlike every Christian before them, they were determined to go to the Gentiles too, as Christ instructed at least three times between the resurrection and the ascension, which anyone without wax in his ears can tell just from reading the gospels and acts as long as they don't force their preconceived theology into the text.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, TLC said:

you know, after my second or third post addressing this, any dweeb that would have stopped long enough to take the wax out of their ears (or the blinders off their eyes), probably would have realized the point originally intended in that comment was to delineate the initial focus (and directive) for the 12 as being (foremost) to all Israel.

Matter of fact, if that were not so, then why oh why is it so plainly written in Acts that it was to go to them first? Or that Paul thought it "necessary"?

Acts 3:26  Unto you first...
Acts 13:46 ...It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you

But, whatever... do or think whatever you want.  Anything to continue disrupting or distracting from the real issue(s) at hand...

There you go again... did it ever occur to you that perhaps you are responsible for making your intended message more clear to your audience?:rolleyes:

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9 hours ago, Rocky said:

There you go again... did it ever occur to you that perhaps you are responsible for making your intended message more clear to your audience?:rolleyes:

You really want to go there, Rocky?  Some people will only see or hear what they want to see and hear about something, no matter when or how it's said.  Now, you can say and/or pretend that's not true... but it doesn't change the reality of it.

Did you ever bother to go back and read the original post that Raf is still insatiably obsessed with spinning into something it never said or meant?  Probably not.

Here... I'll save you the effort (as it was a bit difficult even for me to find, after realizing he was went back three pages and took it out of the context of a previous discussion.)

___________

Before his death, Jesus Christ was a minister unto the circumcision. As were the 12 apostles. Period.
(If anyone can plainly show from scripture where this directive for the 12 ever changed, please do so...  because I don't think it exists.)

___________

Now, maybe you interpret words differently, but no where in there is there any mention of any Gentiles. However, the context of that post referred to what authority Paul did or didn't have, and I had (in the paragraphs prior to the above sentences)  just finished stating that Paul's message was different from what the 12 had been given.  

So, if I then go on to talk about what the 12 had (in comparison to Paul's message, logically, as the context of the discussion dictates) and say what they were teaching and doing (for the circumcision) never really changed... what the heck difference does it make whether they do or don't take a message that is designed first and foremost for Israel to the rest of the world?  The simple fact remains that "the message itself" that they had (to be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, etc.) didn't change, that I can find, anywhere in scripture. Argue over words if you want, but they're not all that much different from Matt. 28:19, nor verse 20, which says "teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you."

Not only does Raf misconstrue and then redirect the issue towards what may, in my opinion, only be an issue of timing, he ignores and/or obfuscates any subsequent effort on my part to clarify what should be a "non-issue," and so much as calls me (oh... not me... what I say) dishonest and a liar.

Well then, bullpuckey to y'all, if that's your only thought of it.  Have at it.  Evidently there's no interest or desire to discuss the real issues, so I'm as done with this incessant stupidity as done gets.

 

 

Edited by TLC

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But the directive to the 12 changed and you're acting like it never did.

It makes zero sense for Jesus to change the audience of the gospel, which he explicitly did, without changing anything that accommodated its expansion (which he implicitly did: he was with them 40 days) makes no sense. To suggest he was talking during those 40 days about something other than what they needed to know to accomplish what he just ordered them to do strains credibility.

You can accuse me of taking the scripture out of context all you want, but you can't do it honestly. You asked a specific question with a specific scriptural answer. Seems your problem is not with ME, but with the Bible's answer to your question.

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9 minutes ago, TLC said:

You really want to go there, Rocky?  Some people will only see or hear what they want to see and hear about something, no matter when or how it's said.  Now, you can say and/or pretend that's not true... but it doesn't change the reality of it.

 

 

Some people? I'd say that social science suggests that ALL people only see what they want to see. 

1) That doesn't supercede the concept of communication whereby you are responsible for ensuring your message is clear to your audience. (that doesn't change the reality of the concept of communication)

2) You can't see into the heart (intentions) of those who would argue contrary to your position. Do you need chapter and verse for that one? (I can find it if so)

 

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On 5/5/2019 at 5:26 PM, Modgellan said:

Discuss the topic all you want, but attacking other poster’s character or motives will NOT be tolerated. Further posts in that vein will not be edited, they will be deleted in their entirety. If part of those posts are on topic, that part will be gone too. It is your responsibility to stay on topic and not violate our rules, not mine.

Discuss, object, disagree in the thread all you want. The key is to not make it personal or about another member. Got it? 

 

TLC- you earlier objected to an entire post being removed and falsely assumed Raf's feelings were hurt as the reason it was removed. I remind you now of what I wrote in the quote above. It is not Moderator's job to edit what you or anyone posts. Occasionally we will take the time to do so as a courtesy, but it is not our regular procedure. It is too time consuming.

Stick to the topic, argue the topic, but stop attacking other posters.

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The challenge in approaching scripture honestly is allowing the documents to speak for themselves rather than forcing them into some imaginary framework that raises more questions than it answers.

Dispensationalism raises more questions than it answers. Requiring Paul's gospel to be different from the gospel of the 12 requires you to redefine the gospel, scripturally, and ignore the plain language of scripture.

If you assume that the mission of Paul was distinct from the mission given to the 12  then you have to force Jesus to say things other than what the Bible says he said.

The unbeliever has an alternate explanation, but it is not relevant to what scripture teaches. 

According to the Bible, Jesus, after his resurrection, gave the 12 instructions they did not follow. When Paul, despite originally preaching to Israel, recognized the scripture in Isaiah as authority to go to the Gentiles, he did so. And when he did, Jesus was able to reveal to Paul even more than he had before to the 12.

That is what the Bible says. It is not an interpretation. It is a recitation. Acts repeatedly says Paul preached the gospel of the kingdom. So did the 12. Differences in their approach can be accounted for in the difference in their audience, but the destination, Biblically, remains the same: the gospel of the kingdom. The same gospel Jesus preached pre-crucifixion, the same gospel the 12 preached post resurrection, the same gospel Paul preached through the very last verse of Acts.

Now, the skeptical view on this is not the same, but I've been holding that back. I do not need to rely on unbelief as a preconceived notion. Unbelief is a conclusion, not a preconception. The Bible teaches what it teaches, regardless of whether anyone believes it. It doesn't teach ultradispensationalism unless you decide beforehand that it does, and then you have to to ignore multiple scriptures to maintain your position.

The skeptic's view of Paul is indeed different from the Bible's, but the Bible's is not the ultradispensationalist''s.

Edited by Raf

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Anyone who attempts to interpret plain this [Matthew 10:5-10] commission, which forbade the disciples to go to the Gentiles, and the commission that commands the same group to go to the Gentiles (Matt. 28:19-20) either (1) gives up in confusion or (2) resorts to spiritualizing one of the passages or (3) recognizes a dispensational distinction.

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A distinction, yes. A dispensational distinction? No. One instruction is pre crucifixion. The other is post resurrection. You don't need to inject anything to draw that scriptural distinction.

Jesus explicitly told the 12, post resurrection, to preach to the Gentiles. They didn't.

Paul wasn't uniquely sent to the Gentiles by Jesus. They were ALL sent to the Gentiles. Paul is the only one who took it to heart. 

Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom.

So did the 12.

So did Paul.

Their audiences and timing were different. Their instructions were different. But the gospel was the same.

Nobody reads Matthew 10 and follows it with Matthew 28 and then "gives up in confusion." People are smart enough to see the difference between pre crucifixion and post resurrection without resorting to the unbiblical position that the GOSPEL changed. You've employed a straw man argument with points 1 and 2 and falsely present 3 as the only logical alternative. Your premises are false and your conclusion is falsely presented as the only viable alternative.

 

Edited by Raf

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