Gen -2 I hear ya. A letter I wrote personally to Dr. Fat rat was on Love Letters, I had just taken the class and was very excited aobut going out Wow,my life was
electric with moving the word,and NOTHING was more important to me.enough so to isolate myself from my family because they were not believers according to The Way
Internationals (sick rules of measuring just WHO is a Believer.)
I (at that time)saw vp as a Billy Graham kind of a Man,who was sincere(which is haha NO gurannetee for the truth)like he was warning himself of him.
Anyhow I didn't know of the abuse of those young girls and that really made me angry after I found that out
I knew he was a drinking man ,but then so were alot of people and I didn't have any idea of the Evil behind his mind,of using people and greed. Not to mention God for his gain!
great, now I have to go look in a bible . . . wait . . . is that when that lady invited that dude into her tent and killed him?
Yeah sorry Ham was right and you are too Bolshevik. Jael? I think, was her name.
oh and though someone only said it in here - they were right... Courage is always courage. It don't matter how old you are. Courage is always courage - every TIME!
Gen -2 I hear ya. A letter I wrote personally to Dr. Fat rat was on Love Letters, I had just taken the class and was very excited aobut going out Wow,my life was
electric with moving the word,and NOTHING was more important to me.enough so to isolate myself from my family because they were not believers according to The Way
Internationals (sick rules of measuring just WHO is a Believer.)
I (at that time)saw vp as a Billy Graham kind of a Man,who was sincere(which is haha NO gurannetee for the truth)like he was warning himself of him.
Anyhow I didn't know of the abuse of those young girls and that really made me angry after I found that out
I knew he was a drinking man ,but then so were alot of people and I didn't have any idea of the Evil behind his mind,of using people and greed. Not to mention God for his gain!
Oh Cheranne, that's almost funny (except it isn't). But still - I can play with that idea a bit, ... :
"Now Class My sincerity is no guarantee for the truth! Here,... see? I've got this toothbrush **twirls his index finger around on the ONE bristle** "You'd like to buy it , wouldn't you?"
Ooo I heard the class on Tape. I heard a lot of tapes before they wore out or were lost in Hurricanes Charlie & Fran back in 2004. One I always remembered was "All Aboard"
So VPW's TWI was sort of like a mountain railroad with an Engineer gone wild..................
He told me that he knew it was "over" when that Tape "Love Letters" came out. On it there was some mention that the word was going to have spread across the World by some certain year. dad said that he and a friend of his said to one another, well,... that's it then. it's over. Now, he also mentioned that LCM was teaching about the rise and expansion stuff at Avanced Class '80? [This was before Rise & Expansion became a seperate Way Class] & before He wore "tights".
No growth, no life. If the word was over the world (and it was true that,... the Way was at it's Zenith then, expansion-wise), from there it was downhill. My Dad said the Way Ministry pretty much ended then. though it wouldn't become apparent for a while yet to many.
This announcement wasn't common knowledge when I arrived in 1985. You'd think if it was a LEGITIMATE
announcement, it would have been repeated over and over and reached even the lowly peons certainly
within the next 5 years.
Then again, every few years, vpw and lcm both made a habit of making an announcement that changed
everything. All accounts of the 1976 (US Bicentennial) are that it was a huge deal.
Then came vpw's retirement/replacement by lcm, which, I admit, would be a legitimate announcement.
However, as you heard, that was coupled with "The Word is over The World!"
1985 itself was a big deal, when vpw died. A number of people honestly expected Jesus Christ
to return during victor paul wierwille's lifetime.
1989 was when lcm came out of his fog and demanded the oath of loyalty, which meant 80% of the
way international walked off at once.
A few years later, lcm walked onto the podium, and announced he has just gotten revelation
a moment ago. (Despite the group being 20% of the size it was previously) The Word was now over
the world. Henceforth, the way international would not be about getting The Word over the
world, but it would be about living in the promised land of the prevailing Word.
I think both announcements were equally made-up.
He had a friend, who had a sister, who was Corps,... that had been approached By VPW as a motorcoach delectible one night. Apparently she had told some tale to her parents - who promptly disbelieved her (that part dazzles me) anyways my dad's friend (and ex WOW brother) believed his sister, and so my dad did. If I remember right this was in 1979. the Girl's name was Anna. she and her husband were in one of the WC's and she sang songs too. So some of you can figure it all out maybe. So it was not long after these things that my dad pretty much quietly walked out of the Way Int. He was never able to go into the Corps himself because he joined the military and had me all around the same time. (it really IS all about me -yanno? [snicker]) <kiddin',...kiddin'....>
I remember my dad telling me - Well, if we'd moved the Word over the World, we'd done our job and it was OVER. Anything LCM did was going to be presiding over decline.
Honestly,... hearing some of this stuff makes me feel sympathy for anyone with a nail-gun at the door of a tent...
You'd be surprised with some of the reactions some people had upon hearing from someone
whom they respected or otherwise trusted, who said that vpw had molested/raped/drugged/violated
them. Some people called them liars, including family members. (Some have refused to apologize
about that to this very day, considering their memory of vpw more important than a living loved one.)
We had one poster here claim that vpw did this for the good of the women, that it was supposed
to "toughen them up spiritually", and that we only react to rape and molestation because our prudish
culture predisposes us to do so- ignoring everything God's Word has to say on the subject, of course...
Hm?
Yeah, a more modern version of the Jael-Sisera incident would have changed things, for sure.
Sadly, vpw made an incredibly thorough job of covering his tracks, starting with priming his audience,
carefully selecting his victims, even through having them monitored afterwards, and having them
kicked out and smearing their reputation before they could tell anyone if they showed signs of talking.
In the category of rape, I think he approached the status of criminal mastermind. Too bad he never
really dedicated as much effort to the things of God as he did in satisfying his flesh...
However, as you heard, that was coupled with "The Word is over The World!"
I must've been in serious denial! I was there and I do not remember that! My brain must've just said, "He didn't really say that, no way."
1985 itself was a big deal, when vpw died. A number of people honestly expected Jesus Christ
to return during victor paul wierwille's lifetime.
That was because VP told people he believed Jesus Christ would return in his lifetime. Since he was "The Man of God", he must have had some unique spiritual insight. After all, God did make it snow for him, right?
However, as you heard, that was coupled with "The Word is over The World!"
I must've been in serious denial! I was there and I do not remember that! My brain must've just said, "He didn't really say that, no way."
1985 itself was a big deal, when vpw died. A number of people honestly expected Jesus Christ
to return during victor paul wierwille's lifetime.
That was because VP told people he believed Jesus Christ would return in his lifetime. Since he was "The Man of God", he must have had some unique spiritual insight. After all, God did make it snow for him, right?
It has been awhile. . . so the "word" was PFAL right? Since historically most evangelists that actually did preach the gospel to so many. . . . were uninformed unbelieving believers(Or some form of that)?
Didn't they can PFAL?
Okay, clueless here. . . what went over the world that LCM took credit for?
Okay, clueless here. . . what went over the world that LCM took credit for?
Anyone on earth who wanted the word had access to it in some way. This usually meant, outside the U.S., there was a U.S. military base with a "believer" stationed there that unbelievers, who wanted to know, could contact. Most everyone else on earth doesn't really want to know the truth, so the word didn't need to go there.
Anyone on earth who wanted the word had access to it in some way. This usually meant, outside the U.S., there was a U.S. military base with a "believer" stationed there that unbelievers, who wanted to know, could contact. Most everyone else on earth doesn't really want to know the truth, so the word didn't need to go there.
LOL, I am sorry . . . but, that is just funny. And to shoot themselves in the foot by taking the focus off getting more bodies is just short sighted. Still wonder what the "word" is though. I am thinking some version of PFAL would qualify.
. . .Still wonder what the "word" is though. I am thinking some version of PFAL would qualify.
In the context of twi, I don't know that "The Word" or "The Truth" is something that can be described in words. It'd be interesting to watch people try.
In the context of twi, I don't know that "The Word" or "The Truth" is something that can be described in words. It'd be interesting to watch people try.
I think you just take anything most mainstream Christians believe and say the opposite or at least twist it to the point it means something else. :) and that is the "word". I don't think VP ever got over being mad at the church for telling him messing around was wrong and he couldn't be a minister anymore unless he stopped.
I think you just take anything most mainstream Christians believe and say the opposite or at least twist it to the point it means something else. :) and that is the "word". I don't think VP ever got over being mad at the church for telling him messing around was wrong and he couldn't be a minister anymore unless he stopped.
Just a theory.
I wasn't there for vpw, I don't think he was a necessary ingredient. Catalyst maybe.
One could pull it off with another holy book I would assume
The first time I took the RM class-I had a hard time RM my mind because the guy teaching it was totally imitating VPW and he was young at the time. No one that age spoke like that. Whenever I mentioned it I got crazy responses. He was raised by UH or he he had really made the word his own so he sounded like the man. I tried taking it again and his VPW parady grated on me. Then he was M&A and it got pulled.
I was around a lot of young men who imitated the loyster. It could be hurtful, but mostly it was awkward-they were not being themselves it came off bad.
I was reamed a few times for not following "suggestions." How manipulating-'suggesting" then raging at the person for not taking it. Tantamount to a command, my butt. Just a way to say afterwards, "well it was your choice" when following said suggestion crapped all over your life.
Saying the Word was over the World was another chance for ldrshp to back pedal. I was "corrected" for thinking JC would come back when that happened. I could swear it had been taught that way-who knows. But now the word was over the world and only the "faithful remnant" were standing. An excuse to cover up failure and explain incredibly low numbers.
But now the word was over the world and only the "faithful remnant" were standing. An excuse to cover up failure and explain incredibly low numbers.
That thing was such a farce. And whatever happened to being in the promised land of the prevailing word? Where things would happen so much easier and things would be so much more abundant for those who had stayed faithful and crossed over? Garbage. Then there were the comparisons to those who had left the ministry to being the same as those who had perished in the wilderness back in Moses day. Those forbidden to cross the Jordan. More garbage.
So VPW's TWI was sort of like a mountain railroad with an Engineer gone wild..................
Completely beside the point.... where is that quote from? I know that the original song was "Life is like a mountain railroad with an engineer that's brave." But I distinctly remember some country group on the radio singing "with an engineer gone wild" in a version on the radio back in the early 80's. But when I tried Googling it, I only found this thread. Anybody know who did it?
I am sure weirwill attacked people too, but not to the vicious degree of Martindale.
When I was a WOW, back in '76, my family leader (home leader? family coordinator? The guy put in charge of the three of us.) said he had seen a woman question Doctor on something or other. Doctor threw a fit in front of the wholee group, calling this girl everything but a believer. He eventually calmed down, kissed her and said he was sorry.
My coordinator finished the story with the rationalization: "He's the MOG and the MOG has to command respect.
Respect that has to be commanded isn't really respect, at all. It's coerced obedience. Maybe that's appropriate in some military situations but this was supposed to be a Christian organization, not The Green Berets.
Respect that has to be commanded isn't really respect, at all. It's coerced obedience. Maybe that's appropriate in some military situations but this was supposed to be a Christian organization, not The Green Berets.
And in the Green Berets it's not that simple, either. The officers are other highly-trained soldiers
who worked their way up to being officers and thus the Green Berets know their Commanding Officer
has earned the skills necessary to command their respect- he knows what they all know.
Of course, vpw WANTED to make twi like the military, but he knew nothing about the military EXCEPT
"the officer gives any order and the soldier automatically carries it out blindly."
Which isn't even true to the degree vpw claimed it was, and there was always a lot more to it.
All he knew about the military (he dodged the draft by becoming a minister) was what he saw in
the movies. And he used THAT distorted lens to found his corps idea. Small wonder the initial group
all seemed to offer him some sort of resistence- he fired them as a group.
("I gave them the privilege of leaving.")
But, hey, it didn't matter WHAT terminology he used, all he wanted was the blind obedience ANYWAY.
Much has been talked about that people were led, coerced, and manipulated in TWI. Apparently, all it ever took was planting the idea that "suggestion" actually meant "commandment" and then suggesting something. How utterly genius. No leading. No coercion. No manipulation past planting the original idea.
It had to be amazing to sit back and watch it unfold. Imagine being able to suggest something and people treating it like it was a commandment. How powerful is that? Do you think he knowingly kept pushing the suggestions to new heights to test his power and influence?
And why didn't it work with LCM? After all, he was the hand-picked successor.
Some of us in the first few Way Corps groups especially, had a very different experience than what you describe as " No leading. No coercion. No manipulation past planting the original idea." Be cautious about generalizing how VP conducted himself towards others. Many people never knew him or were around him. Many people only went to a twig off somewhere in a small town and might think as you do that there was only a "suggestion." Just read the first few pages of the PFAL book and you can see that what VP called doing the Word was not a suggestion.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
4
6
11
5
Popular Days
Mar 13
10
Mar 14
8
Mar 8
8
Mar 12
7
Top Posters In This Topic
WordWolf 4 posts
geisha779 6 posts
Bolshevik 11 posts
Gen-2 5 posts
Popular Days
Mar 13 2010
10 posts
Mar 14 2010
8 posts
Mar 8 2010
8 posts
Mar 12 2010
7 posts
Popular Posts
Ham
I think mainly- loy wasn't that smart. Maybe he was just an ordinary thug in tights with an inferiority complex.. It is known that he was jealous of his predecessor.. at one point forbad the use of
100% Free
The whole "suggestion" thing was a way for a leader to control others yet not be accountable for "suggesting" it. If someone didn't follow a "suggestion" and something bad happened, it was because th
Bolshevik
great, now I have to go look in a bible . . . wait . . . is that when that lady invited that dude into her tent and killed him?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cheranne
Gen -2 I hear ya. A letter I wrote personally to Dr. Fat rat was on Love Letters, I had just taken the class and was very excited aobut going out Wow,my life was
electric with moving the word,and NOTHING was more important to me.enough so to isolate myself from my family because they were not believers according to The Way
Internationals (sick rules of measuring just WHO is a Believer.)
I (at that time)saw vp as a Billy Graham kind of a Man,who was sincere(which is haha NO gurannetee for the truth)like he was warning himself of him.
Anyhow I didn't know of the abuse of those young girls and that really made me angry after I found that out
I knew he was a drinking man ,but then so were alot of people and I didn't have any idea of the Evil behind his mind,of using people and greed. Not to mention God for his gain!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Gen-2
Yeah sorry Ham was right and you are too Bolshevik. Jael? I think, was her name.
oh and though someone only said it in here - they were right... Courage is always courage. It don't matter how old you are. Courage is always courage - every TIME!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Gen-2
Oh Cheranne, that's almost funny (except it isn't). But still - I can play with that idea a bit, ... :
"Now Class My sincerity is no guarantee for the truth! Here,... see? I've got this toothbrush **twirls his index finger around on the ONE bristle** "You'd like to buy it , wouldn't you?"
Ooo I heard the class on Tape. I heard a lot of tapes before they wore out or were lost in Hurricanes Charlie & Fran back in 2004. One I always remembered was "All Aboard"
So VPW's TWI was sort of like a mountain railroad with an Engineer gone wild..................
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
since you're into nails and hammering mice . . .
do you remember the poem with the boy and the fence post and the nails?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
thank you geisha and gen re: courage
also, i knew anna
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
This announcement wasn't common knowledge when I arrived in 1985. You'd think if it was a LEGITIMATE
announcement, it would have been repeated over and over and reached even the lowly peons certainly
within the next 5 years.
Then again, every few years, vpw and lcm both made a habit of making an announcement that changed
everything. All accounts of the 1976 (US Bicentennial) are that it was a huge deal.
Then came vpw's retirement/replacement by lcm, which, I admit, would be a legitimate announcement.
However, as you heard, that was coupled with "The Word is over The World!"
1985 itself was a big deal, when vpw died. A number of people honestly expected Jesus Christ
to return during victor paul wierwille's lifetime.
1989 was when lcm came out of his fog and demanded the oath of loyalty, which meant 80% of the
way international walked off at once.
A few years later, lcm walked onto the podium, and announced he has just gotten revelation
a moment ago. (Despite the group being 20% of the size it was previously) The Word was now over
the world. Henceforth, the way international would not be about getting The Word over the
world, but it would be about living in the promised land of the prevailing Word.
I think both announcements were equally made-up.
You'd be surprised with some of the reactions some people had upon hearing from someone
whom they respected or otherwise trusted, who said that vpw had molested/raped/drugged/violated
them. Some people called them liars, including family members. (Some have refused to apologize
about that to this very day, considering their memory of vpw more important than a living loved one.)
We had one poster here claim that vpw did this for the good of the women, that it was supposed
to "toughen them up spiritually", and that we only react to rape and molestation because our prudish
culture predisposes us to do so- ignoring everything God's Word has to say on the subject, of course...
Hm?
Yeah, a more modern version of the Jael-Sisera incident would have changed things, for sure.
Sadly, vpw made an incredibly thorough job of covering his tracks, starting with priming his audience,
carefully selecting his victims, even through having them monitored afterwards, and having them
kicked out and smearing their reputation before they could tell anyone if they showed signs of talking.
In the category of rape, I think he approached the status of criminal mastermind. Too bad he never
really dedicated as much effort to the things of God as he did in satisfying his flesh...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Broken Arrow
However, as you heard, that was coupled with "The Word is over The World!"
I must've been in serious denial! I was there and I do not remember that! My brain must've just said, "He didn't really say that, no way."
1985 itself was a big deal, when vpw died. A number of people honestly expected Jesus Christ
to return during victor paul wierwille's lifetime.
That was because VP told people he believed Jesus Christ would return in his lifetime. Since he was "The Man of God", he must have had some unique spiritual insight. After all, God did make it snow for him, right?
Edited by erkjohnLink to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
It has been awhile. . . so the "word" was PFAL right? Since historically most evangelists that actually did preach the gospel to so many. . . . were uninformed unbelieving believers(Or some form of that)?
Didn't they can PFAL?
Okay, clueless here. . . what went over the world that LCM took credit for?
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Anyone on earth who wanted the word had access to it in some way. This usually meant, outside the U.S., there was a U.S. military base with a "believer" stationed there that unbelievers, who wanted to know, could contact. Most everyone else on earth doesn't really want to know the truth, so the word didn't need to go there.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
LOL, I am sorry . . . but, that is just funny. And to shoot themselves in the foot by taking the focus off getting more bodies is just short sighted. Still wonder what the "word" is though. I am thinking some version of PFAL would qualify.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
In the context of twi, I don't know that "The Word" or "The Truth" is something that can be described in words. It'd be interesting to watch people try.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
I think you just take anything most mainstream Christians believe and say the opposite or at least twist it to the point it means something else. :) and that is the "word". I don't think VP ever got over being mad at the church for telling him messing around was wrong and he couldn't be a minister anymore unless he stopped.
Just a theory.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
I wasn't there for vpw, I don't think he was a necessary ingredient. Catalyst maybe.
One could pull it off with another holy book I would assume
Link to comment
Share on other sites
crystalclearblue
The first time I took the RM class-I had a hard time RM my mind because the guy teaching it was totally imitating VPW and he was young at the time. No one that age spoke like that. Whenever I mentioned it I got crazy responses. He was raised by UH or he he had really made the word his own so he sounded like the man. I tried taking it again and his VPW parady grated on me. Then he was M&A and it got pulled.
I was around a lot of young men who imitated the loyster. It could be hurtful, but mostly it was awkward-they were not being themselves it came off bad.
Edited by crystalclearblueLink to comment
Share on other sites
crystalclearblue
I was reamed a few times for not following "suggestions." How manipulating-'suggesting" then raging at the person for not taking it. Tantamount to a command, my butt. Just a way to say afterwards, "well it was your choice" when following said suggestion crapped all over your life.
Saying the Word was over the World was another chance for ldrshp to back pedal. I was "corrected" for thinking JC would come back when that happened. I could swear it had been taught that way-who knows. But now the word was over the world and only the "faithful remnant" were standing. An excuse to cover up failure and explain incredibly low numbers.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
That thing was such a farce. And whatever happened to being in the promised land of the prevailing word? Where things would happen so much easier and things would be so much more abundant for those who had stayed faithful and crossed over? Garbage. Then there were the comparisons to those who had left the ministry to being the same as those who had perished in the wilderness back in Moses day. Those forbidden to cross the Jordan. More garbage.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Clarke
Completely beside the point.... where is that quote from? I know that the original song was "Life is like a mountain railroad with an engineer that's brave." But I distinctly remember some country group on the radio singing "with an engineer gone wild" in a version on the radio back in the early 80's. But when I tried Googling it, I only found this thread. Anybody know who did it?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
So_crates
When I was a WOW, back in '76, my family leader (home leader? family coordinator? The guy put in charge of the three of us.) said he had seen a woman question Doctor on something or other. Doctor threw a fit in front of the wholee group, calling this girl everything but a believer. He eventually calmed down, kissed her and said he was sorry.
My coordinator finished the story with the rationalization: "He's the MOG and the MOG has to command respect.
SoCrates
Edited by So_cratesLink to comment
Share on other sites
Gen-2
lol,... and that kind of $h!t commands respect??!!!
Edited by Gen-2Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Respect that has to be commanded isn't really respect, at all. It's coerced obedience. Maybe that's appropriate in some military situations but this was supposed to be a Christian organization, not The Green Berets.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
And in the Green Berets it's not that simple, either. The officers are other highly-trained soldiers
who worked their way up to being officers and thus the Green Berets know their Commanding Officer
has earned the skills necessary to command their respect- he knows what they all know.
Of course, vpw WANTED to make twi like the military, but he knew nothing about the military EXCEPT
"the officer gives any order and the soldier automatically carries it out blindly."
Which isn't even true to the degree vpw claimed it was, and there was always a lot more to it.
All he knew about the military (he dodged the draft by becoming a minister) was what he saw in
the movies. And he used THAT distorted lens to found his corps idea. Small wonder the initial group
all seemed to offer him some sort of resistence- he fired them as a group.
("I gave them the privilege of leaving.")
But, hey, it didn't matter WHAT terminology he used, all he wanted was the blind obedience ANYWAY.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
penworks
Some of us in the first few Way Corps groups especially, had a very different experience than what you describe as " No leading. No coercion. No manipulation past planting the original idea." Be cautious about generalizing how VP conducted himself towards others. Many people never knew him or were around him. Many people only went to a twig off somewhere in a small town and might think as you do that there was only a "suggestion." Just read the first few pages of the PFAL book and you can see that what VP called doing the Word was not a suggestion.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
So_crates
True he was a con man. But, truth be told, he was something even more pathetic than that: He was a con man that believed his own line of bull.
SoCrates
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.