The Way International Argues: Actual Words of the Bible are Not Doctrine

[James Trimm]

The Way International Argues: Actual Words of the Bible are Not Doctrine

In recent court documents The Way International has argued that the actual words with which the Bible is translated and written are not doctrine. Instead they argue that doctrine is not “what the words [of the Bible] say”

Instead TWI claims that “doctrine” is only “a principle or body of principles presented for belief.” TWI says for an example:

"The Way teaches, that when someone dies, he is not judged immediately,

but is 'asleep' until the time of the last judgment, when all the dead are awakened and judged. This... is an example of a doctrine, which can be taught, believed or rejected..."

But of the actual words of the Bible they say:

"It is what the words say; it is not itself a ‘principle presented for acceptance or belief...’”

This is in sharp contrast to the beliefs of most Protestants in America who hold the words of the Bible to be doctrine and inseparable from doctrine. As the reformer Calvin said:

This, then, is the difference. Our opponents (speaking of the Roman Catholic Church) locate the authority of the Church outside God's Word, that is, outside of Scripture and Scripture alone. But we insist that it be attached to the Word and to not allow it to be separated from it. And what wonder if Christ's bride and pupil be subject to her spouse and teacher so that she pays constant and careful attention to His words. For this is the arrangement of a well-governed house. The wife obeys the husband's authority. This is the plan of a well-ordered school, that there the teaching of the schoolmaster alone should be heard. For this reason the Church should not be wise of itself, should not devise anything of itself but should set the limit of its own wisdom where Christ has made an end of speaking. In this way the Church will distrust all the devisings of its own reason. But in those things where it rests upon God's Word the Church will not waiver with any distrust or doubting but will repose in great assurance and firm constancy.

(Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion, Volume 1, Chapter VIII)

Ironically TWI founder Victor Paul Wierwille taught in his Power for Abundant Living Classes that the greatest secret in the world today is that "the Bible is the revealed Word and will of God," or that "the Word of God is the will of God." Wierwille emphasized

reading the words of the Bible directly as opposed to “principle presented for acceptance or belief...”. He even stated that one day he hauled over three thousand volumes of theological works to the city dump, because he found that "equally intelligent men, talking about the same verse of scripture, would be miles apart on their conclusions." (Power for Abundant Living, pp. 119-120) Wierwille maintained that God’s Word itself is doctrine and scoffed at “principles” and “dogma” taught by men.

Yet with the most blatant of hypocrisy, as soon as it becomes convenient for them, TWI argues to a Federal judge that the actual words with which the Bible is written are not constitutionally protected “doctrine” only the “principals” and “dogmas” taught by men are constitutionally protected as “doctrine.

Shame on you TWI!

For more on this lawsuit see:

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/23574/hebraic-roots-version

http://nazarenespace.

Response to MTD.pdf

[Twinky]

I'm sure this is covered in all classes run by this organization, and has been fully canvassed in Corps meetings...not.

If what you report is accurate, not a whisper of that will have reached the ears of any innie at lower level. Maybe the BoT has discussed it. Sounds like some lawyers' ruse, actually.

[James Trimm]

Also if Yahweh actually inspired the Scriptures (and He did) then they had meaning the moment he inspired them because He understood them, so our understanding of them is irrelevant to their actual meaning. The Messiah is the Word itself incarnate. The Bible as it is written is therefore doctrine BEFORE we read and understand it.

[waysider]

Your ABS at work.

[mstar1]

Im not sure if Im following this correctly. I havent got time right at the moment to read the full court document but my understandng is that you have a bible translation that is copyrightable and got some or parts of it from TWI which you claim is not copyrightable.

Is that right?

Edited April 6, 2010 by mstar1

[penworks]

Im not sure if Im following this correctly. I havent got time right at the moment to read the full court document but my understandng is that you have a bible translation that is copyrightable and got some or parts of it from TWI which you claim is not copyrightable.

Is that right?

A post was made about this lawsuit awhile ago: Check here: Lawsuit about Way's Aramaic Interlinear

[Twinky]

So (on now having looked at the document included by James Trimm) here we have an alleged plagiarizer (James T) defending a claim from another *known* plagiarizer (TWI). Are we being asked to adjudicate? To take sides?

Even VPW in PFAL makes the point that a translation is one thing, a "version" is another, when people start to work on the rough draft of a translation and sort out nuances.

(And that's before you get into "literals according to usage.")

Any translation, version, has an element of doctrine attached to it. The choice made to use one word instead of another to express nuances in the original language is partly translation, partly doctrine - even sometimes for quite everyday objects - never mind amorphous concepts like love, joy, peace, gentleness, goodness, longsuffering etc which you will recognise from Galatians 5 - but the words aren't the same in every version of the Bible and sometimes one word is used to represent another.

Very loving, though, the way TWI goes after smaller groups to pick them off.

[WordWolf]

The one time the way international actually acts in accordance with the intent and

letter of the law, and nobody believes they're doing the right thing.

If you "cry wolf" all the time, no one's going to believe you if the real thing

shows up at your door.....

[chockfull]

Another nice little document drafted up by Louis Columbo. He's such a diligent lawyer. I wonder how much this document cost? 15pp. 20 or so case citations? $250/hr. ?

Your ABS at work.

They're making sure that after they've chased off and denigrated the majority of the people that worked on the Aramaiac translation that now they can spend ABS to ensure their rights to the work are ensured.

The more I see TWI's actions, the more they look like a little po-dunk corporation engaging in typical petty corporate actions as opposed to anything related to Christianity.

[mstar1]

So (on now having looked at the document included by James Trimm) here we have an alleged plagiarizer (James T) defending a claim from another *known* plagiarizer (TWI). Are we being asked to adjudicate? To take sides?

Its unclear--Im just enjoying sitting back and watching fundamentalists biting and devouring one another like Im watching an amateur wrestling match between two pro wrestling wannabes-- Its mildly entertaining in an obtuse sort of way...

What goes around comes around

[Mod Kirk]

FYI:

The word "pedangta" confuses the filter, which turns the slang word for excrement into "dang".

Wherever you see the word "Penangta", it should be "Pedangta"

[Ham]

Just wonder.. does herr (da way) bookstore even SELL this item any longer? If not, any plans to sell it in the near (or distant) future?

Edited April 6, 2010 by Ham

[Bolshevik]

Just wonder.. does herr (da way) bookstore even SELL this item any longer? If not, any plans to sell it in the near (or distant) future?

That's a set of like five books and a little one? I think they still did a few years back.

[Ham]

I thought they abandoned it.. when I was still around I think they had like copies of one part or something.. don't remember precisely..

[James Trimm]

Anyone who can email me scans of Power for Abundant Living, pp. 119-120 (along with title page and copyright date) I would appreciate it, also any other documentable statements by Wierwall to the effect that the actual words of the Bible are doctrine and scoffing at principles or dogma taught by men as doctrine :

cleartruth@yahoo.com

I would appreciate it.

[Bolshevik]

FYI:

The word "pedangta" confuses the filter, which turns the slang word for excrement into "dang".

Wherever you see the word "Penangta", it should be "Pedangta"

shiitake is spelt with two "ii"s, case anyone was wondering . . .

[excathedra]

you can't get a greek or aramaic filter

OHMYGOD

what ....

bulldangta

[waysider]

Anyone who can email me scans of Power for Abundant Living, pp. 119-120 (along with title page and copyright date) I would appreciate it, also any other documentable statements by Wierwall to the effect that the actual words of the Bible are doctrine and scoffing at principles or dogma taught by men as doctrine :

cleartruth@yahoo.com

I would appreciate it.

There is a place in the PFAL class where Wierwille tells the students to put aside all secular materials for a month or six weeks or something and read only the Bible. I don't recall which session it is.

Re; pages 119 and 120.

This is where Wierwille claims he hauled over 3,000 theological works to the dump and then read nothing but "The Word".

Yeah, he took them to the dump, alright. All except the ones that he later "cut and pasted" into his own "works", line by line and word for word.

He finishes page 120 but saying this:

"--the only way you are going to stand approved before God is to study and rightly divide The Word."

That is a completely disgraceful misinterpretation, misrepresentation and misapplication of II Timothy 2:15.

[James Trimm]

There is a place in the PFAL class where Wierwille tells the students to put aside all secular materials for a month or six weeks or something and read only the Bible. I don't recall which session it is.

Re; pages 119 and 120.

This is where Wierwille claims he hauled over 3,000 theological works to the dump and then read nothing but "The Word".

Yeah, he took them to the dump, alright. All except the ones that he later "cut and pasted" into his own "works", line by line and word for word.

He finishes page 120 but saying this:

"--the only way you are going to stand approved before God is to study and rightly divide The Word."

That is a completely disgraceful misinterpretation, misrepresentation and misapplication of II Timothy 2:15.

Great but can you scan the pages and the title page and email them to cleartruth@yahoo.com? It would help me to be able to document this.

[Gen-2]

Great but can you scan the pages and the title page and email them to cleartruth@yahoo.com? It would help me to be able to document this.

What I'm piecing together here is that the Hebrew Bible thing stole from the Way's work on the Aramaic Translation (somehow).

What you're no doubt looking for is that Weirwille wrote "There is only one way to rightly cut The Word..." page 119

Naturally, you wish to contend that you agree, so you're not stealing any intellectual property from the Way, and since they had this or that passage correct, and GOD's Word would suffer if you supplied any other "cutting" of the passage --- After all,... who can lay claim to God's Word as THEIR property.

And WNAE is off the hook.

on Page 120,... "Why do we study? Because God expects us as workmen to know what His Word says."

Yes,... It's GOD's Word, not the Way's...

===Title Page Info===

power for abundant living

The Accuracy of the Bible

Victor Paul Weirwille

American Christian Press

The Way International

New Knoxville, Ohio 45871

===============================

ISBNO-910068-01-1

Library of Congress Catalog Number 72-164674

American Christian Press

© 1971 The Way International. All rights reserved

New Knoxville, Ohio 45871

Printed in the United States of America

On the other hand (though I can scan this, and e-mail it) why should I help one thief against another?

Edited April 7, 2010 by Gen-2

[Gen-2]

So (on now having looked at the document included by James Trimm) here we have an alleged plagiarizer (James T) defending a claim from another *known* plagiarizer (TWI). Are we being asked to adjudicate? To take sides?

Even VPW in PFAL makes the point that a translation is one thing, a "version" is another, when people start to work on the rough draft of a translation and sort out nuances.

(And that's before you get into "literals according to usage.")

Any translation, version, has an element of doctrine attached to it. The choice made to use one word instead of another to express nuances in the original language is partly translation, partly doctrine - even sometimes for quite everyday objects - never mind amorphous concepts like love, joy, peace, gentleness, goodness, longsuffering etc which you will recognise from Galatians 5 - but the words aren't the same in every version of the Bible and sometimes one word is used to represent another.

Very loving, though, the way TWI goes after smaller groups to pick them off.

"The Bible from which I have been quoting is called the King James Version. It is not the King James translation. If I had the King James translation in my hands, I would have a Bible that is worth a great deal of money as a collector's item. Once a translation has been made from an original text, like the Stephen's Text from which the King James was translated, the first copy is called a translation. When scholars begin to re-work the translation in any way, it becomes a version.

Now I said that no translation, let alone a version, may properly be called the Word of God. As far as anybody knows, there are no original texts in existence today. The oldest dated manuscript is written in Estrangelo Aramaic...."

PFAL Page 127

Edited April 7, 2010 by Gen-2

[cheranne]

No One Cares what The Way International "thinks"anymore.

[Gen-2]

No One Cares what The Way International "thinks"anymore.

True that cheranne, except for this guy getting sued by them. He seems to care a great deal >snicker<

[OldSkool]

Given that The Way International has now officially pulled a total 180 in court that pretty much disregards all that they currently teach about the Word of God being doctrine. I have one question.

Does anyone expect better from a group that slithered their way out from under RICO charges?

I guess to these dirt bags the end justifies the means.

[James Trimm]

True that cheranne, except for this guy getting sued by them. He seems to care a great deal >snicker<

Actually I simply want to best respond to their briefs in court, and catching them saying one thing in court and another thing in their own publications is.. helpful :-)

So if you can email those scans I would appreciate it.

James Trimm

cleartruth@yahoo.com