when I personally inquired, I was told that I was not welcome in Way Fellowships, because of my father's name. But he's dead. That's a helluva way to run a railroad.
So I see a reluctance to allow people in and if you do something that displeases them like the Mona-V thing their response is to send you away to a place where they are not.
This brings me to think of the word shiftthis uses,... household. This is what he sees the Way as. God's Household. In this sense, as I understand this, the Family of God is all those born-again, but the household is the standing believers, If they are the "household", no one else in the world is as close to God as the Way International. Their Household has become more insular than ever. There's not really any pressing need to witness much, any more, as the ministry's old goal of Word over the World was achieved long ago. People that are punished are given that opportunity. When people venture out into the world or on the web they are often told to quit doing that, desist, or shut down their sites. They are not to be talking toother people especially Christians.
Something that has bothered me about the Way (now you'll have to understand - I was never in the Way) is that they they aren't charitable. They don't reach out in their community to help others, and it's commonly reported that they don't even use their people's donations to take care of one another when they have need. Perhaps that's because the Organization is now so small that they simply cannot afford to help those who are in need. I'm not sure, just trying to give them the benefit of the doubt. maybe they could build a community playground if they're low on funds, do something. Every week is a new week, you know. One in which you can reach out.
I hear that they don't help their own people with the abundance they collect from them. I mean when an individual has need. The widows and the fatherless and so on... They're told to believe. How many people in the Way wear glasses? Are they unbelievers. Why do Way people get sick if God favors them? Have they no one that knows how to use gifts of healings? Seems like their leadership that puts people in rememberance of their believing would simply step in and tend their own flock, and heal them like a good pastor would, unless of course, they can't.
I've heard these things from several people in the Way Money and Healing rarely make their Way down to the "regular" believers, in fact, it's more likely that the regular believers will share these things with their leadership. I look at churches in the US, When there's a disaster in the world, their people come together and donate. The church organizes and delivers the donated goods/money to those unfortunate souls abroad or in our country. Happens all the time.
Unless you're in the Way.
You don't see them reaching out much, beyond their "household" unless they're being punished.
Before I start I am going to give enough personal information so that whoever is current WAYGB will know who I am. John if that's you, and I assume it is, you can rest assured I would not be here on Grease Spot now had I not been treated so horribly by Rosalie and John Rupp. Hopefully you will tell them I say Thanks!! It's because of them that I am free from the way international, happy, and prosperous today. You guys didn't think I would go through what I did and quietly creep away did you?
I just left the way international two years ago. I was way corps, have been section coord. assistant department coord., department coord., and was on the president's. cabinet. I know the inside workings of the way ministry and let me tell you one thing. It has only changed in appearance. Just because the teachings are delivered in a lower tone of voice does not mean that the people who are running the place, the same people who were shoulder to shoulder with Craig Martindale and named in the Allen lawsuit as accomplices, have made any meaningful changes unless they were forced into legal compliance - probably under counsel from their lawyers. I heard Rosalie say first hand that she hates all the changes that have had to happen since the Allen lawsuit during a rant she went on because someone on staff (he was clergy so it made it worse) went to their kids little game on a Sunday afternoon instead of going to the Sunday Teaching Service.
Furthermore, she came after me and my family, by proxy, via John Rupp. I was treated horribly and endured months of harassment that only abated when she went too far and I took the first steps in initiating a harassment complaint against them. My crime? Requesting to be reassigned to a nearby city where my son's doctors are because he has a serious health condition. Driving several hundred miles each week was causing a financial hardship and making things difficult for us by adding hours of travel time. I could go on but will move on to my next point.
I told my mother, who was an advanced class grad, how we were being treated and she decided to leave the way ministry. She was contacted by her former fellowship coordinator and was told that if she had any hope of her grandson being healed of his disease then that hope was now gone because she was leaving the way international. She could expect God's hand of protection and healing to depart from her family. This happened in early 2009.
So don't give me the way international is better and different speech. I am sad to say that you have been deceived. The Allen's exposed the way ministry as a corrupt organization that systematically abuses it's followers. The results of that sunlight was to white wash the facade and hide the evil deeper in the shadows. Never believe the bull$#i+.... that says the way international has changed since craig was ousted. It has been corrupt since victor paul wierwille and is corrupt today as it has ever been.
there have been allegations that Rosalie had a lesbian couple living (secretly) in her household.
When they lived with Rosalie they were in her basement apartment. I can verify this first hand and could post their names and tell you the city they currently reside, I have no beef with them so I will refrain. However, this happy couple (as of 2008) even had the pleasure of having Rosalie visit them when she takes her vacations.
Well, I can personally attest that although I am still using an insulin pump, in spite of their dire predictions - I AM HEALED! I was forbidden to speak of my diabetes the last three years we were there. We were under surveillance as if we were suspected spies, criticized, complained about, and talked about. No one ever offered to help us with anything.
These people were and are blind guides and false prophets.
I am healed of fear and self-loathing.
I am healed of false pride of being a member of the Household of Heaven's Holiest, which is one of the most evil, devilish places around.
Shellon i dont believe that someone attending a way ministry fellowship on a regular basis wrote you that letter. that goes against everthing the ministry does in this day and time. i would like to know who wrote you that letter because that is out of line. anyone talking to or treating someone in that manner is either not thinking about what their saying or they are being a jerk and trying to bad mouth the ministry.
sorry, shiftthis, but TWI is a whited sepulcher. the same people who lied and abused are still very much in twi and influencing people. wolves in sheep's clothing is what they are. I stayed long after LCM got booted, waiting for the wrongs to be addressed and for some apologies to be issued to people who more than deserved them. IT NEVER HAPPENED. the wrongs were swept under the carpet and never talked about, and if it ever came up in conversation the asker was admonished to forgive, that it's a NEW, KINDLER, GENTLER MINISTRY AND WE'RE ALL SO BLESSED TO BE PART OF THIS NEW EXCITING TIME. exciting??? 'scuse me while I barf.
TWI is not kindler and gentler, they just learned some lessons the hard way about allowing leaders to coerce and rape. I think the only thing on their agenda is to avoid any more sh1t sticking to them. they tried to keep us off the internet, to keep us in isolation so we wouldn't know that the true consequence of leaving is FREEDOM, and I heard the anti-internet talk from leaders in 2006, I heard the denial in 2006, and I was put down for disagreeing with them. it was 3.5 years ago that I left, and I hear it hasn't changed.
TWI is like a sick family with a pedophile uncle. they punish the kids for talking about it and pretend the uncle is normal and tell everyone what a great family they have.
When I took dance they taught a primary thing. If you keep getting your toes stepped on, fnd another way to protect your feet or get a new partner. If you are the one who keeps stepping on your partners toes, get off the dance floor.
What's different is that the way international is now SAYING it's different.
Other than that, it's pretty much the same.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
Is TWI really saying it's different? I mean people come on here and they say TWI is different. But I don't recall TWI actually coming out and saying it is behaving differently. Did I miss something?
thats what I was wondering.. where was the *official* announcement made?
oh yeah.. then would come the little "opportunity" with about three hundred questions asking "how so?"
then there is restitution to those they harmed..
my name is in the phone book.. nobody's called me explaining how its all better, along with pleas for me to come back and be *blessed* to *abundantly share* again..
I have a feeling the "official" announcement was made to a few select leaders and was passed down as instructions to teach the kinder, gentler TWI (in other words, brainwash everyone into believing that LCM was the only problem and the RR was the salvation of TWI because of her "feminine" touch). I observed the change in attitude from so many people simultaneously that it's logical to conclude that there was a paradigm shift in twi dogma and wayspeak that originated at the top.
and yes, I do believe that "kinder" and "gentler" are buzzwords that the upper echelon deliberately chose and passed down to the lowly via the "faithful" way corps or via the region/limb leaders to the way corps. people in twi are so used to limiting expressive language that all it would have taken is using those words a few dozen times over the course of a few weeks to describe the "new" twi for the words to take hold as wayspeak and pretty much permeate every attitude of the "faithful".
Shiftthis posted a number of quotes recently. These are some extracts (edited a little to correct some spelling bloopers):
Shiftthis is at pains to emphasise how much TWI has changed since Martindale was kicked out. Others describe it as being "softer and kinder."
No doubt there has been change - some perhaps for the better.
I just have one question, specifically for Shiftthis: what is the Way's attitude towards homosexuals? If a homosexual man (or woman) turned up looking very "gay", would that person be welcomed, honestly and openly, at a Sunday Night Service? Or (even if permitted to stay) would they remain feeling welcome, or would they feel lectured at, and condemned for their sexuality?
It is widely understood at the Cafe that Rosalie and Donna have had/are in a relationship and there have been allegations that Rosalie had a lesbian couple living (secretly) in her household. Those things have always been kept away from the wider public knowledge, even from most people living at HQ. And certainly at the time, that behavior was going on even though it didn't fit with Martindale's rages against it.
But now?
If, let's say, two homosexual ex-Wayfers (perhaps some of those you say were "wrongly thown outa the ministry by others who aint here no more" turned up hand-in-hand for SNS, what would be the reaction?
i cannot speak for what other fellowships would do but if 2 homosexuals that were former way believers came to fellowship hand in hand i would talk to them outside and ask them if they remember what THE WORD says about homosexuality. if they said yes they know what THE WORD says BUT they want to continue doing their homosexual thing i would politley tell them that anyone who refuses to do as THE WORD instructs will not be welcome in my home. this applies to someone showing up who goes around doing drugs,stealing,etc that doesnt want to live according to THE WORD. i would not yell at them , i would not condemn them i would calmly tell them that if they wanted to change and neede help i would help. i have witnessed to a number of homsexuals since i started going to fellowship in 1980 and all of them wanted to continue their homo lifestyle. if they showed up wanting deliverance i would help them. when it comes to allegations of rev. rivenbark being associated with homosexuals anyone can make allegations. Jesus was accused of all kinds of stuff and eve3n his family said he was nuts. as far as i see it whoever made those allegations are liars. i run construction crews and have ben accused of stuff from other construction workers wanting my good paying job. i could make up stuff to say about other people here but would you believe what i would say without me having actual proff ? there are those who work for the adversary that are out to destroy ANY ministry that teaches GOD's WORD. look what happened to Jesus and Paul , Martin Luther. Paul wrote that all asia turned away from him. i hope i answered you question. standing against the homosexual lifestyle deosnt not mean that you mistreat people. you dont go verbally abusing someone cause they are homo.
Edited by shiftthis
sounds like it's ok for gays and lesbians to attend fellowships with TWI as long as they stay in the closet. or was lcm right to "purge" the "ministry" as he did? after all, he ran off thousands of "homos" hiding amongst the faithful and contaminating the "one true household".
p.s. I don't consider a "homo lifestyle" to be something people need to be "delivered" from.
sounds like it's ok for gays and lesbians to attend fellowships with TWI as long as they stay in the closet. or was lcm right to "purge" the "ministry" as he did? after all, he ran off thousands of "homos" hiding amongst the faithful and contaminating the "one true household".
p.s. I don't consider a "homo lifestyle" to be something people need to be "delivered" from.
well that means you refuse to believe what GOD says in his WORD about homosexaulity. i thought greasespot cafe was a place for believers who were wrongly kicked out of the ministry. i see that unbelievers reside here to. if your not into GOD and HIS word why are you here ? is it to stir up trouble amongst people ? GOD says homosexuality is wrong. and no its not o.k. for homosexuals (male or female) who know THE WORD to stay in the closet and attend fellowship. i never typed that and dont go saying i did. you should read what i typed again. end of story !
Edited by shiftthis
I just have one question, specifically for Shiftthis: what is the Way's attitude towards homosexuals? If a homosexual man (or woman) turned up looking very "gay", would that person be welcomed, honestly and openly, at a Sunday Night Service? Or (even if permitted to stay) would they remain feeling welcome, or would they feel lectured at, and condemned for their sexuality?
If, let's say, two homosexual ex-Wayfers (perhaps some of those you say were "wrongly thown outa the ministry by others who aint here no more") turned up hand-in-hand for SNS, what would be the reaction?
You have set yourself up as a mouthpiece for The Way. But you comment on what your own approach would be. Should it be taken, then, that your approach is exactly what The Way's attitude would be?
You say:
i cannot speak for what other fellowships would do but if 2 homosexuals that were former way believers came to fellowship hand in hand i would talk to them outside and ask them if they remember what THE WORD says about homosexuality. if they said yes they know what THE WORD says BUT they want to continue doing their homosexual thing i would politley tell them that anyone who refuses to do as THE WORD instructs will not be welcome in my home.
this applies to someone showing up who goes around doing drugs,stealing,etc that doesnt want to live according to THE WORD. i would not yell at them , i would not condemn them i would calmly tell them that if they wanted to change and neede help i would help.
i have witnessed to a number of homsexuals since i started going to fellowship in 1980 and all of them wanted to continue their homo lifestyle. if they showed up wanting deliverance i would help them.
You would therefore refuse to have anything to do with them; refuse to fellowship with them; refuse to help them. Refuse to show them the love of God.
The Way's attitude to homosexuals (under LCM's reign of terror) was that they were the lowest of the low, dregs of society, basically words weren't enough to describe their despicable behavior.
Who does God love? Does he not pour out his goodness on all? Is not God's love unconditional?
Who did Jesus hang around with? Drunkards, prostitutes, the lowest of the low, dregs of society, those nobody else wanted to be around. Wouldn't surprise me at all if some of those were homosexual, even though there was an enormous taboo against that in Jewish society. (The very fact that it is mentioned at all means that it was present in that society!) No, Jesus showed love, grace, compassion. He wasn't judgmental, condemnatory; he showed he cared. Some people listened, changed their ways; others didn't.
Change doesn't happen from simply reading words in a book - maybe only reading those words once or twice, even if it does say Bible on the cover; it takes time to sink in and for the desire to change one's behavior (whatever that behavior is) to something more Godly. It takes a proper model. Once full of grace and kindness.
Another question for you:
What about what The Way might consider lesser sins?
Does the Way now kick out adulterers? Child molesters? What about those men who do not love their wives as themselves, but abuse them, hit them, emotionally injure them? What about "invisible" sins? Those who are prideful? Those who lie? Those who think ill of their brothers in Christ? Those who backbite and speak evil of fellow Christians? And those who condone these things, even if they (say they) haven't done them themselves?
Because, Shiftthis, all those things are ALSO in the Word, and there are most definitely people still fellowshipping with The Way who do (some of) those things. There may even be some who have done all of these things.
Where does the kicking out start? And finish?
How on earth would you "help them," without first showing that you cared enough to help them?
Otherwise, it's just finger-wagging from a position of superiority.
How on earth does The Way "help" anyone, when it doesn't show it cares?
I'd just like to add (for avoidance of doubt) that I am not attacking you, Shiftthis; you appear to have a genuine desire to help people. I'm just trying to investigate any substantive changes of attitude in The Way.
So much of what was taught in the PFAL series of classes has been debunked regarding "accuracy", it would hardly seem worth anyone's while to stay/return to partake of the supposed "gentler, kinder" treatment, even if it were real.
You have set yourself up as a mouthpiece for The Way. But you comment on what your own approach would be. Should it be taken, then, that your approach is exactly what The Way's attitude would be?
You say:
You would therefore refuse to have anything to do with them; refuse to fellowship with them; refuse to help them. Refuse to show them the love of God.
The Way's attitude to homosexuals (under LCM's reign of terror) was that they were the lowest of the low, dregs of society, basically words weren't enough to describe their despicable behavior.
Who does God love? Does he not pour out his goodness on all? Is not God's love unconditional?
Who did Jesus hang around with? Drunkards, prostitutes, the lowest of the low, dregs of society, those nobody else wanted to be around. Wouldn't surprise me at all if some of those were homosexual, even though there was an enormous taboo against that in Jewish society. (The very fact that it is mentioned at all means that it was present in that society!) No, Jesus showed love, grace, compassion. He wasn't judgmental, condemnatory; he showed he cared. Some people listened, changed their ways; others didn't.
Change doesn't happen from simply reading words in a book - maybe only reading those words once or twice, even if it does say Bible on the cover; it takes time to sink in and for the desire to change one's behavior (whatever that behavior is) to something more Godly. It takes a proper model. Once full of grace and kindness.
Another question for you:
What about what The Way might consider lesser sins?
Does the Way now kick out adulterers? Child molesters? What about those men who do not love their wives as themselves, but abuse them, hit them, emotionally injure them? What about "invisible" sins? Those who are prideful? Those who lie? Those who think ill of their brothers in Christ? Those who backbite and speak evil of fellow Christians? And those who condone these things, even if they (say they) haven't done them themselves?
Because, Shiftthis, all those things are ALSO in the Word, and there are most definitely people still fellowshipping with The Way who do (some of) those things. There may even be some who have done all of these things.
Where does the kicking out start? And finish?
How on earth would you "help them," without first showing that you cared enough to help them?
Otherwise, it's just finger-wagging from a position of superiority.
How on earth does The Way "help" anyone, when it doesn't show it cares?
you used a term "looking very gay". exactly what do you mean buy that ? a guy wearing a dress ? back in the south in the 70's i was called a queer in school cause i had hair down over my ears. is that what you mean. i clearly stated that if someone wanted help they would get help. if someone sees that being a homosexual goes against GODS WORD but want to reamin a homosexual then it aint no different from a theif or crimnial who doesnt want to stop stealing and go out and get a job. they are not welcome. i wouldnt want drunks and drug addicts who didnt want to qiut the drugs and booze around. my dad was a violent drunk and that was pure hell growing up in that enviorement and i invited him to fellowship in 1980 and he refused to go , he loved his getting drunk escapades and my youger brother took the pfal class around 1983 but decided to be a theif and drug dealer and i refused to let him in my home cause i caught him trying to steal form me. if you dont want to do the WORD that you learn then whats the reason for coming ? its one thing to grow as you learn more and more of THE WORD but if you dont want to do it your wasting everybodys time when there are people who want help that my time and others could be spent on. you seem to want to take what i typed and twist it around and say the way doesnt want to help anyone. have you ever ben W.O.W. or Way Disciple ? i went wow 2 times > 1981-1982 and 1983-1984 and way discilple in 2003-2004 because i wanted to devote a lot of my time to help people get the deliverence i have gotten. who have you helpled get deliverence lately ? "THE WAY" is made of of people, and we care ! again i ask who have YOU cared about and helped this week ?
Edited by shiftthis
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Gen-2
Kinder & Gentler? Well they can't Mark and Avoid ten thousand people, because there aren't 10,000 left (is mostly why).... And to shiftthis... I'm just a gal that was never in The Way herself,
Twinky
Shiftthis posted a number of quotes recently. These are some extracts (edited a little to correct some spelling bloopers): Shiftthis is at pains to emphasise how much TWI has changed since Martind
OldSkool
Before I start I am going to give enough personal information so that whoever is current WAYGB will know who I am. John if that's you, and I assume it is, you can rest assured I would not be here on G
Gen-2
when I personally inquired, I was told that I was not welcome in Way Fellowships, because of my father's name. But he's dead. That's a helluva way to run a railroad.
So I see a reluctance to allow people in and if you do something that displeases them like the Mona-V thing their response is to send you away to a place where they are not.
This brings me to think of the word shiftthis uses,... household. This is what he sees the Way as. God's Household. In this sense, as I understand this, the Family of God is all those born-again, but the household is the standing believers, If they are the "household", no one else in the world is as close to God as the Way International. Their Household has become more insular than ever. There's not really any pressing need to witness much, any more, as the ministry's old goal of Word over the World was achieved long ago. People that are punished are given that opportunity. When people venture out into the world or on the web they are often told to quit doing that, desist, or shut down their sites. They are not to be talking toother people especially Christians.
Something that has bothered me about the Way (now you'll have to understand - I was never in the Way) is that they they aren't charitable. They don't reach out in their community to help others, and it's commonly reported that they don't even use their people's donations to take care of one another when they have need. Perhaps that's because the Organization is now so small that they simply cannot afford to help those who are in need. I'm not sure, just trying to give them the benefit of the doubt. maybe they could build a community playground if they're low on funds, do something. Every week is a new week, you know. One in which you can reach out.
I hear that they don't help their own people with the abundance they collect from them. I mean when an individual has need. The widows and the fatherless and so on... They're told to believe. How many people in the Way wear glasses? Are they unbelievers. Why do Way people get sick if God favors them? Have they no one that knows how to use gifts of healings? Seems like their leadership that puts people in rememberance of their believing would simply step in and tend their own flock, and heal them like a good pastor would, unless of course, they can't.
I've heard these things from several people in the Way Money and Healing rarely make their Way down to the "regular" believers, in fact, it's more likely that the regular believers will share these things with their leadership. I look at churches in the US, When there's a disaster in the world, their people come together and donate. The church organizes and delivers the donated goods/money to those unfortunate souls abroad or in our country. Happens all the time.
Unless you're in the Way.
You don't see them reaching out much, beyond their "household" unless they're being punished.
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OldSkool
Before I start I am going to give enough personal information so that whoever is current WAYGB will know who I am. John if that's you, and I assume it is, you can rest assured I would not be here on Grease Spot now had I not been treated so horribly by Rosalie and John Rupp. Hopefully you will tell them I say Thanks!! It's because of them that I am free from the way international, happy, and prosperous today. You guys didn't think I would go through what I did and quietly creep away did you?
I just left the way international two years ago. I was way corps, have been section coord. assistant department coord., department coord., and was on the president's. cabinet. I know the inside workings of the way ministry and let me tell you one thing. It has only changed in appearance. Just because the teachings are delivered in a lower tone of voice does not mean that the people who are running the place, the same people who were shoulder to shoulder with Craig Martindale and named in the Allen lawsuit as accomplices, have made any meaningful changes unless they were forced into legal compliance - probably under counsel from their lawyers. I heard Rosalie say first hand that she hates all the changes that have had to happen since the Allen lawsuit during a rant she went on because someone on staff (he was clergy so it made it worse) went to their kids little game on a Sunday afternoon instead of going to the Sunday Teaching Service.
Furthermore, she came after me and my family, by proxy, via John Rupp. I was treated horribly and endured months of harassment that only abated when she went too far and I took the first steps in initiating a harassment complaint against them. My crime? Requesting to be reassigned to a nearby city where my son's doctors are because he has a serious health condition. Driving several hundred miles each week was causing a financial hardship and making things difficult for us by adding hours of travel time. I could go on but will move on to my next point.
I told my mother, who was an advanced class grad, how we were being treated and she decided to leave the way ministry. She was contacted by her former fellowship coordinator and was told that if she had any hope of her grandson being healed of his disease then that hope was now gone because she was leaving the way international. She could expect God's hand of protection and healing to depart from her family. This happened in early 2009.
So don't give me the way international is better and different speech. I am sad to say that you have been deceived. The Allen's exposed the way ministry as a corrupt organization that systematically abuses it's followers. The results of that sunlight was to white wash the facade and hide the evil deeper in the shadows. Never believe the bull$#i+.... that says the way international has changed since craig was ousted. It has been corrupt since victor paul wierwille and is corrupt today as it has ever been.
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OldSkool
When they lived with Rosalie they were in her basement apartment. I can verify this first hand and could post their names and tell you the city they currently reside, I have no beef with them so I will refrain. However, this happy couple (as of 2008) even had the pleasure of having Rosalie visit them when she takes her vacations.
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Watered Garden
Well, I can personally attest that although I am still using an insulin pump, in spite of their dire predictions - I AM HEALED! I was forbidden to speak of my diabetes the last three years we were there. We were under surveillance as if we were suspected spies, criticized, complained about, and talked about. No one ever offered to help us with anything.
These people were and are blind guides and false prophets.
I am healed of fear and self-loathing.
I am healed of false pride of being a member of the Household of Heaven's Holiest, which is one of the most evil, devilish places around.
I am healed of thinking God must hate me.
I am healed of being a follower of TWI.
Praise be to God!
WG
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potato
I'll add my reply from the other thread:
sorry, shiftthis, but TWI is a whited sepulcher. the same people who lied and abused are still very much in twi and influencing people. wolves in sheep's clothing is what they are. I stayed long after LCM got booted, waiting for the wrongs to be addressed and for some apologies to be issued to people who more than deserved them. IT NEVER HAPPENED. the wrongs were swept under the carpet and never talked about, and if it ever came up in conversation the asker was admonished to forgive, that it's a NEW, KINDLER, GENTLER MINISTRY AND WE'RE ALL SO BLESSED TO BE PART OF THIS NEW EXCITING TIME. exciting??? 'scuse me while I barf.
TWI is not kindler and gentler, they just learned some lessons the hard way about allowing leaders to coerce and rape. I think the only thing on their agenda is to avoid any more sh1t sticking to them. they tried to keep us off the internet, to keep us in isolation so we wouldn't know that the true consequence of leaving is FREEDOM, and I heard the anti-internet talk from leaders in 2006, I heard the denial in 2006, and I was put down for disagreeing with them. it was 3.5 years ago that I left, and I hear it hasn't changed.
TWI is like a sick family with a pedophile uncle. they punish the kids for talking about it and pretend the uncle is normal and tell everyone what a great family they have.
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mstar1
I'd say something but Ive already been M&A'ed by shiftthis --
which is just fine with me.
I wont be doing any weeping, moaning, penance or soulsearching--Its way too nice outside :)
btw -this cracked me up-
thanks Gen
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Shellon
When I took dance they taught a primary thing. If you keep getting your toes stepped on, fnd another way to protect your feet or get a new partner. If you are the one who keeps stepping on your partners toes, get off the dance floor.
It made sense a minute ago
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Bolshevik
"softer and kinder"
he he . . .he he he . . . he he he he he
*cackles*
*coughs*
I haven't noticed a damned bit of difference. What is different? They hate you. Always have, always will.
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Bolshevik
The bulk of my issues w/twi came post-lcm,have the leaders from 2000-2008 been removed yet?
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Bolshevik
I would find lcm kinder and gentler, since that is the ministry I grew under, I'm more used that.
what rosie has is far more devious.
The Nazis or the Russians, which do you prefer?
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Tzaia
It pays to learn the difference
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WordWolf
What's different is that the way international is now SAYING it's different.
Other than that, it's pretty much the same.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
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Tzaia
Is TWI really saying it's different? I mean people come on here and they say TWI is different. But I don't recall TWI actually coming out and saying it is behaving differently. Did I miss something?
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Ham
thats what I was wondering.. where was the *official* announcement made?
oh yeah.. then would come the little "opportunity" with about three hundred questions asking "how so?"
then there is restitution to those they harmed..
my name is in the phone book.. nobody's called me explaining how its all better, along with pleas for me to come back and be *blessed* to *abundantly share* again..
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potato
I have a feeling the "official" announcement was made to a few select leaders and was passed down as instructions to teach the kinder, gentler TWI (in other words, brainwash everyone into believing that LCM was the only problem and the RR was the salvation of TWI because of her "feminine" touch). I observed the change in attitude from so many people simultaneously that it's logical to conclude that there was a paradigm shift in twi dogma and wayspeak that originated at the top.
and yes, I do believe that "kinder" and "gentler" are buzzwords that the upper echelon deliberately chose and passed down to the lowly via the "faithful" way corps or via the region/limb leaders to the way corps. people in twi are so used to limiting expressive language that all it would have taken is using those words a few dozen times over the course of a few weeks to describe the "new" twi for the words to take hold as wayspeak and pretty much permeate every attitude of the "faithful".
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Twinky
I knew this would draw a lot of replies quickly, but I would really like to hear from Shiftthis.
Shiftthis, how can you answer these people?
And can you please answer the question I posed in the first post?
(Everyone else, give him a chance to reply, please)
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shiftthis
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potato
sounds like it's ok for gays and lesbians to attend fellowships with TWI as long as they stay in the closet. or was lcm right to "purge" the "ministry" as he did? after all, he ran off thousands of "homos" hiding amongst the faithful and contaminating the "one true household".
p.s. I don't consider a "homo lifestyle" to be something people need to be "delivered" from.
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shiftthis
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potato
you avoided my question and got stuck on my statement of belief.
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Twinky
No Shiftthis, you haven't. What I asked was this:
You have set yourself up as a mouthpiece for The Way. But you comment on what your own approach would be. Should it be taken, then, that your approach is exactly what The Way's attitude would be?
You say:
You would therefore refuse to have anything to do with them; refuse to fellowship with them; refuse to help them. Refuse to show them the love of God.
The Way's attitude to homosexuals (under LCM's reign of terror) was that they were the lowest of the low, dregs of society, basically words weren't enough to describe their despicable behavior.
Who does God love? Does he not pour out his goodness on all? Is not God's love unconditional?
Who did Jesus hang around with? Drunkards, prostitutes, the lowest of the low, dregs of society, those nobody else wanted to be around. Wouldn't surprise me at all if some of those were homosexual, even though there was an enormous taboo against that in Jewish society. (The very fact that it is mentioned at all means that it was present in that society!) No, Jesus showed love, grace, compassion. He wasn't judgmental, condemnatory; he showed he cared. Some people listened, changed their ways; others didn't.
Change doesn't happen from simply reading words in a book - maybe only reading those words once or twice, even if it does say Bible on the cover; it takes time to sink in and for the desire to change one's behavior (whatever that behavior is) to something more Godly. It takes a proper model. Once full of grace and kindness.
Another question for you:
What about what The Way might consider lesser sins?
Does the Way now kick out adulterers? Child molesters? What about those men who do not love their wives as themselves, but abuse them, hit them, emotionally injure them? What about "invisible" sins? Those who are prideful? Those who lie? Those who think ill of their brothers in Christ? Those who backbite and speak evil of fellow Christians? And those who condone these things, even if they (say they) haven't done them themselves?
Because, Shiftthis, all those things are ALSO in the Word, and there are most definitely people still fellowshipping with The Way who do (some of) those things. There may even be some who have done all of these things.
Where does the kicking out start? And finish?
How on earth would you "help them," without first showing that you cared enough to help them?
Otherwise, it's just finger-wagging from a position of superiority.
How on earth does The Way "help" anyone, when it doesn't show it cares?
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Twinky
I'd just like to add (for avoidance of doubt) that I am not attacking you, Shiftthis; you appear to have a genuine desire to help people. I'm just trying to investigate any substantive changes of attitude in The Way.
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waysider
So much of what was taught in the PFAL series of classes has been debunked regarding "accuracy", it would hardly seem worth anyone's while to stay/return to partake of the supposed "gentler, kinder" treatment, even if it were real.
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shiftthis
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