I don't think it's whether or not we (as Christians) believe homosexuality is wrong. I think it's whether or not we believe (as Christians) that Jesus came for everyone. Outcasts. Outsiders. And yes, even the homosexual. Who are we to decide who is to be reconciled to God? Who are we to suggest your or my particular sin is any less despised by God?
I'm just sayin' that I think we (as Christians) should be very careful when we attempt to speak on behalf of God about who or who yes it has not welcome.
yes it has to be done on an individual basis , not one size fits all. people need to be given time to believe THE WORD and grow.
Edited by shiftthis
p.s. I don't consider a "homo lifestyle" to be something people need to be "delivered" from.
But Shiftthis does.....
i would politley tell them that anyone who refuses to do as THE WORD instructs will not be welcome in my home.
when it comes to allegations of rev. rivenbark being associated with homosexuals anyone can make allegations. Jesus was accused of all kinds of stuff and eve3n his family said he was nuts. as far as i see it whoever made those allegations are liars. i run construction crews and have ben accused of stuff from other construction workers wanting my good paying job. i could make up stuff to say about other people here but would you believe what i would say without me having actual proff ? there are those who work for the adversary that are out to destroy ANY ministry that teaches GOD's WORD. look what happened to Jesus and Paul , Martin Luther. Paul wrote that all asia turned away from him. i hope i answered you question. standing against the homosexual lifestyle deosnt not mean that you mistreat people. you dont go verbally abusing someone cause they are homo.
Here there has to be a question. You believe the allegations about Rosalie Rivenbark are false and that those making them are liars.
Would it make any difference if you had proof that this was the truth? What would you do? When Martindale was in charge, people were face d with that same choice,... MOST, did nothing. many of those people are still in The Way International today, and some people still don't believe Martindale did anything wrong.
It's easier to say, "It's a lie" than to look into it. There's always that uncomfortable fact that when you discovered it to be true, you'd be forced to do something if you had any spine at all.
Not looking into it is far easier. The tweo women who have stayed with Rosalie Rivenbark also have lives outside of Way Property. It's interesting to note that people who are so very close to RR, living under her own roof, have such private personal lives. Would it stun you to learn that they live together.
Yes shiftthis, you're a good ostrich. You've never looked into any of it seriously (It's not actually that hard to do yanno?)
It's easier to believe others are lying, That requires no time or effort on your part, no expense, and less personal aggrivation.
It would be terribly uncomfortable for you to discover the truth that people that refuse to do as THE WORD instructs are welcome in her home. Heck - you're paying for it. Better to deny. It's easier.
That's how Martindale got to be such an idiot. He counted on people like you to stick their heads in the sand, until the Allens called his bluff and exposed him. But LC Martindale wasn't the only one getting his jollies. His wife and RR were into all that too. the Allens didn't sue them,... because they weren't in charge of the Ministry. But they did mention D.M. and R.R.'s indiscretions to the judge. The judge mentions this offhandedly in what is public and when R.R. and D.M. were informed, they quickly subordinated their case and paid the Allen's off to NOT carry their lawsuit into a court of law.
The Way is an MLM, a multi-level-marketing organization that hides behind a thinly cloaked veneer of religiosity. That's what it has always been and will likely continue to be. It's really just that simple.
Please note that I did not bash God, Christianity, The Bible, Homosexuals or even The Way, itself. I simply stated the cold hard facts.
Here there has to be a question. You believe the allegations about Rosalie Rivenbark are false and that those making them are liars.
Would it make any difference if you had proof that this was the truth? What would you do? When Martindale was in charge, people were face d with that same choice,... MOST, did nothing. many of those people are still in The Way International today, and some people still don't believe Martindale did anything wrong.
It's easier to say, "It's a lie" than to look into it. There's always that uncomfortable fact that when you discovered it to be true, you'd be forced to do something if you had any spine at all.
Not looking into it is far easier. The tweo women who have stayed with Rosalie Rivenbark also have lives outside of Way Property. It's interesting to note that people who are so very close to RR, living under her own roof, have such private personal lives. Would it stun you to learn that they live together.
Yes shiftthis, you're a good ostrich. You've never looked into any of it seriously (It's not actually that hard to do yanno?)
It's easier to believe others are lying, That requires no time or effort on your part, no expense, and less personal aggrivation.
It would be terribly uncomfortable for you to discover the truth that people that refuse to do as THE WORD instructs are welcome in her home. Heck - you're paying for it. Better to deny. It's easier.
That's how Martindale got to be such an idiot. He counted on people like you to stick their heads in the sand, until the Allens called his bluff and exposed him. But LC Martindale wasn't the only one getting his jollies. His wife and RR were into all that too. the Allens didn't sue them,... because they weren't in charge of the Ministry. But they did mention D.M. and R.R.'s indiscretions to the judge. The judge mentions this offhandedly in what is public and when R.R. and D.M. were informed, they quickly subordinated their case and paid the Allen's off to NOT carry their lawsuit into a court of law.
Easier to be an ostrich......
i never stuck my head in the sand concerning martindale or other leaders i was under BUT when your not the boss there aint nothing you can do and if you speak up your fired. i have spoken up on construction jobs and gotten fired. i have refused to do shoddy and illegal construction work and ben fired & thats happened a few times. there were a couple of times i started to speak up in the ministry and was close to possibly getting kicked out. i dont stick my head in the sand an this is not my grandpas ministry.
Edited by shiftthis
You guys better go easy on shiftthis before his way corpse leadership finds out he's messing around on GreaseSpot Cafe. Wouldn't want to get him into trouble ya know.
again i ask who have YOU cared about and helped this week ?
Yes.
Quite a lot of people. Specific focus on one or two at the moment; it takes TIME to really help someone change so drastically.
Who have I cared about? YOU HAVE NO IDEA but actually, genuine care and help - lemme see - several dozen. A hundred, maybe? More? In a very wide variety of ways.
Answer these questions please.
Does the Way now kick out adulterers? Child molesters? What about those men who do not love their wives as themselves, but abuse them, hit them, emotionally injure them? What about "invisible" sins? Those who are prideful? Those who lie? Those who think ill of their brothers in Christ? Those who backbite and speak evil of fellow Christians? And those who condone these things, even if they (say they) haven't done them themselves?
Because, Shiftthis, all those things are ALSO in the Word.
You guys better go easy on shiftthis before his way corpse leadership finds out he's messing around on GreaseSpot Cafe. Wouldn't want to get him into trouble ya know.
not to worry !
Yes.
Quite a lot of people. Specific focus on one or two at the moment; it takes TIME to really help someone change so drastically.
Who have I cared about? YOU HAVE NO IDEA but actually, genuine care and help - lemme see - several dozen. A hundred, maybe? More? In a very wide variety of ways.
Does the Way now kick out adulterers? Child molesters? What about those men who do not love their wives as themselves, but abuse them, hit them, emotionally injure them? What about "invisible" sins? Those who are prideful? Those who lie? Those who think ill of their brothers in Christ? Those who backbite and speak evil of fellow Christians? And those who condone these things, even if they (say they) haven't done them themselves?
Because, Shiftthis, all those things are ALSO in the Word.
i never stuck my head in the sand concerning martindale or other leaders i was under BUT when your not the boss there aint nothing you can do and if you speak up your fired. i have spoken up on construction jobs and gotten fired. i have refused to do shoddy and illegal construction work and ben fired & thats happened a few times. there were a couple of times i started to speak up in the ministry and was close to possibly getting kicked out. i dont stick my head in the sand an this is not my grandpas ministry.
Sooooooo----from this post, it is obvious you have seen things being done in The Way with which you disagreed. But, you didn't rock the boat because you knew there would be undesirable, personal consequences. And, you feel somewhat powerless because you lack the rank to wield any clout that would result in change.
Please tell me again how this describes a "kinder, gentler" organization.
why not call international for that answer. so for i havent encountered any of the aboved in a fellowship since returning in 2002 or was it 2001 ? i do remember that around the early 80's a limb coordinator got wind of a female believer hanging out with a convicted RAPIST the was on parol and didnt want her or any other female around that guy unless another male believer was with them. can you ladies understnd that. i wouldnt want my kids alone with a petterazz.
Sooooooo----from this post, it is obvious you have seen things being done in The Way with which you disagreed. But, you didn't rock the boat because you knew there would be undesirable, personal consequences. And, you feel somewhat powerless because you lack the rank to wield any clout that would result in change.
Please tell me again how this describes a "kinder, gentler" organization. i never said kinder and gentler but if you want to find out for yourself why dont you go to a way fellowship and check it out and report back ?
you used a term "looking very gay". exactly what do you mean buy that ? a guy wearing a dress ? back in the south in the 70's i was called a queer in school cause i had hair down over my ears. is that what you mean. i clearly stated that if someone wanted help they would get help. if someone sees that being a homosexual goes against GODS WORD but want to reamin a homosexual then it aint no different from a theif or crimnial who doesnt want to stop stealing and go out and get a job. they are not welcome. i wouldnt want drunks and drug addicts who didnt want to qiut the drugs and booze around. my dad was a violent drunk and that was pure hell growing up in that enviorement and i invited him to fellowship in 1980 and he refused to go , he loved his getting drunk escapades and my youger brother took the pfal class around 1983 but decided to be a theif and drug dealer and i refused to let him in my home cause i caught him trying to steal form me. if you dont want to do the WORD that you learn then whats the reason for coming ? its one thing to grow as you learn more and more of THE WORD but if you dont want to do it your wasting everybodys time when there are people who want help that my time and others could be spent on. you seem to want to take what i typed and twist it around and say the way doesnt want to help anyone. have you ever ben W.O.W. or Way Disciple ? i went wow 2 times > 1981-1982 and 1983-1984 and way discilple in 2003-2004 because i wanted to devote a lot of my time to help people get the deliverence i have gotten. who have you helpled get deliverence lately ? "THE WAY" is made of of people, and we care ! again i ask who have YOU cared about and helped this week ?
Jesus hung out with tax collectors, prostitutes, Samaritans, women, and just about every other socially undesirable that one could imagine. I don't see one record where he told them to shape up according to the word or he would shut them out. Perhaps he realized that for some it wasn't a radical conversion, but a lifelong process of progress and failures.
why not call international for that answer. so for i havent encountered any of the aboved in a fellowship since returning in 2002 or was it 2001 ? i do remember that around the early 80's a limb coordinator got wind of a female believer hanging out with a convicted RAPIST the was on parol and didnt want her or any other female around that guy unless another male believer was with them. can you ladies understnd that. i wouldnt want my kids alone with a petterazz.
Oh, I think quite a few ladies here can "understand" that. You don't have to look too far to find first-hand testimony of TWI related rape victims here.
Re: pedophiles
Did this "kinder, gentler" organization bother to tell you that they have a documented history of moving offenders from one location to another to avoid detection, much the way the Catholic Church has been doing for quite some time?
I don't think it's whether or not we (as Christians) believe homosexuality is wrong. I think it's whether or not we believe (as Christians) that Jesus came for everyone. Outcasts. Outsiders. And yes, even the homosexual. Who are we to decide who is to be reconciled to God? Who are we to suggest your or my particular sin is any less despised by God?
I'm just sayin' that I think we (as Christians) should be very careful when we attempt to speak on behalf of God about who or who is not welcome.
Oh, I think quite a few ladies here can "understand" that. You don't have to look too far to find first-hand testimony of TWI related rape victims here.
i have read post here about sexual abuse but non of that ever went on in the twigs i went to or ran. why didnt these women call the cops if they were raped(sexually abused)? i am also not saying if i did or didnt cause i dont know.
Because I spent 8 years at international, and two at gunnison. I know them and how they are even though you have no idea what Rosalie and Donna are really like. Go ahead and believe the facade they present to the the rank and file believers. It's easier for folks that have their entire life centered around the way international. I used to be that way, so I can understand.
Jesus hung out with tax collectors, prostitutes, Samaritans, women, and just about every other socially undesirable that one could imagine. I don't see one record where he told them to shape up according to the word or he would shut them out. Perhaps he realized that for some it wasn't a radical conversion, but a lifelong process of progress and failures.
yes but in a case where homosexuals come in to make a show and dont want to change that aint right. most people who dont want THE WORD will qiut coming but others will come in to disrupt and spy out our freedom as is written THE WORD. not everybody grows at the same pace and it takes some people years to overcome something and you cannot put a time limit on them as long as they want deliverence.
Edited by shiftthis
If they are still teaching that Way followers are a special, superior breed of human that can conjure up special powers to exact physical change through magical thinking, I would be inclined to say they haven't changed.
yes but in a case where homosexuals come in to make a show and dont want to change that aint right. most people who dont want THE WORD will qiut coming but others will come in to disrupt and spy out our freedom as is written THE WORD. not everybody grows at the same pace and it takes some people years to overcome something and you cannot put a time limit on them as long as they want deliverence.
what's THE WORD? really you should start a thread explaining that.
I haven't seen Deliverance yet, I'm sure I'm not getting a lot of good jokes.
yes but in a case where homosexuals come in to make a show and dont want to change that aint cool. most people who dont want THE WORD will qiut coming but others will come in to disrupt and spy out our freedom as is written THE WORD.
I get a laugh how you guys in the way international like to decide who "wants the word." It's the goodness of God that leads a person to repentance and that is shown by unconditional love. But you guys make these judgements about who wants what because based on how quick someone falls into obedience to the way internationals mandates. Egads. And I used to be the same way when I was in der veg. As you are I once was.
Fellow Cafe patrons, it would be better if this were not personal, ie, that could be taken as a personal attack on Shiftthis.
I for one would love to find that there genuinely was a new attitude at TWI. There are (or were) some great people there. And there were some ... (words fail me).
I asked a simple question as a sort of litmus test because of how vilely one particular group of people was treated:
>> How would homosexuals now be treated at the Way?
I got an answer that was less than encouraging, so I asked further questions, to ascertain this new attitude:
>> What about other groups of people who commit lesser sins (in the eyes of TWI). Is the same treatment meted out to them?
And it seems that is a question too hard.
The obviousness that all are sinners and all are deserving of similar treatment (Rom 1:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God") is still not obvious to TWI. There are apparently still unacceptable sins and there are other acceptable sins. (That "all" must be an "all with distinction" or something, not an "all without exception.")
Shiftthis, I'm not going to contact TWI. They marked and avoided me...for doing what the Word said. I was kind to people and treated non-believers and newbies like human beings.
If they are still teaching that Way followers are a special, superior breed of human that can conjure up special powers to exact physical change through magical thinking, I would be inclined to say they haven't changed.
i never heard anyone teach that way followwers are a superior breed of humans. but IF you believe that the WORD of GOD is true and that 1co. ch12 is true and that WE who are born again of GODS spirit can operate the manifestations then you can do what THE WORD says you can do. but if you dont believe that we have the exceeding greatness of GODS power when we believe then why even talk about GOD. do you believe that GOD raised Jesus from the dead ?
Edited by shiftthis
Before I start I am going to give enough personal information so that whoever is current WAYGB will know who I am. John if that's you, and I assume it is, you can rest assured I would not be here on Grease Spot now had I not been treated so horribly by Rosalie and John Rupp. Hopefully you will tell them I say Thanks!! It's because of them that I am free from the way international, happy, and prosperous today. You guys didn't think I would go through what I did and quietly creep away did you?
I just left the way international two years ago. I was way corps, have been section coord. assistant department coord., department coord., and was on the president's. cabinet. I know the inside workings of the way ministry and let me tell you one thing. It has only changed in appearance. Just because the teachings are delivered in a lower tone of voice does not mean that the people who are running the place, the same people who were shoulder to shoulder with Craig Martindale and named in the Allen lawsuit as accomplices, have made any meaningful changes unless they were forced into legal compliance - probably under counsel from their lawyers. I heard Rosalie say first hand that she hates all the changes that have had to happen since the Allen lawsuit during a rant she went on because someone on staff (he was clergy so it made it worse) went to their kids little game on a Sunday afternoon instead of going to the Sunday Teaching Service.
Furthermore, she came after me and my family, by proxy, via John Rupp. I was treated horribly and endured months of harassment that only abated when she went too far and I took the first steps in initiating a harassment complaint against them. My crime? Requesting to be reassigned to a nearby city where my son's doctors are because he has a serious health condition. Driving several hundred miles each week was causing a financial hardship and making things difficult for us by adding hours of travel time. I could go on but will move on to my next point.
I told my mother, who was an advanced class grad, how we were being treated and she decided to leave the way ministry. She was contacted by her former fellowship coordinator and was told that if she had any hope of her grandson being healed of his disease then that hope was now gone because she was leaving the way international. She could expect God's hand of protection and healing to depart from her family. This happened in early 2009.
So don't give me the way international is better and different speech. I am sad to say that you have been deceived. The Allen's exposed the way ministry as a corrupt organization that systematically abuses it's followers. The results of that sunlight was to white wash the facade and hide the evil deeper in the shadows. Never believe the bull$#i+.... that says the way international has changed since craig was ousted. It has been corrupt since victor paul wierwille and is corrupt today as it has ever been.
Hey Shift. Tell me this, am I lying? are my allegations baseless? Am I accusing Rosalie the way Jesus was accused?
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
16
11
13
22
Popular Days
Apr 15
78
Apr 18
16
Apr 19
15
Apr 17
8
Top Posters In This Topic
waysider 16 posts
Bolshevik 11 posts
shiftthis 13 posts
OldSkool 22 posts
Popular Days
Apr 15 2010
78 posts
Apr 18 2010
16 posts
Apr 19 2010
15 posts
Apr 17 2010
8 posts
Popular Posts
Gen-2
Kinder & Gentler? Well they can't Mark and Avoid ten thousand people, because there aren't 10,000 left (is mostly why).... And to shiftthis... I'm just a gal that was never in The Way herself,
Twinky
Shiftthis posted a number of quotes recently. These are some extracts (edited a little to correct some spelling bloopers): Shiftthis is at pains to emphasise how much TWI has changed since Martind
OldSkool
Before I start I am going to give enough personal information so that whoever is current WAYGB will know who I am. John if that's you, and I assume it is, you can rest assured I would not be here on G
shiftthis
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Gen-2
But Shiftthis does.....
Here there has to be a question. You believe the allegations about Rosalie Rivenbark are false and that those making them are liars.
Would it make any difference if you had proof that this was the truth? What would you do? When Martindale was in charge, people were face d with that same choice,... MOST, did nothing. many of those people are still in The Way International today, and some people still don't believe Martindale did anything wrong.
It's easier to say, "It's a lie" than to look into it. There's always that uncomfortable fact that when you discovered it to be true, you'd be forced to do something if you had any spine at all.
Not looking into it is far easier. The tweo women who have stayed with Rosalie Rivenbark also have lives outside of Way Property. It's interesting to note that people who are so very close to RR, living under her own roof, have such private personal lives. Would it stun you to learn that they live together.
Yes shiftthis, you're a good ostrich. You've never looked into any of it seriously (It's not actually that hard to do yanno?)
It's easier to believe others are lying, That requires no time or effort on your part, no expense, and less personal aggrivation.
It would be terribly uncomfortable for you to discover the truth that people that refuse to do as THE WORD instructs are welcome in her home. Heck - you're paying for it. Better to deny. It's easier.
That's how Martindale got to be such an idiot. He counted on people like you to stick their heads in the sand, until the Allens called his bluff and exposed him. But LC Martindale wasn't the only one getting his jollies. His wife and RR were into all that too. the Allens didn't sue them,... because they weren't in charge of the Ministry. But they did mention D.M. and R.R.'s indiscretions to the judge. The judge mentions this offhandedly in what is public and when R.R. and D.M. were informed, they quickly subordinated their case and paid the Allen's off to NOT carry their lawsuit into a court of law.
Easier to be an ostrich......
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
The Way is an MLM, a multi-level-marketing organization that hides behind a thinly cloaked veneer of religiosity. That's what it has always been and will likely continue to be. It's really just that simple.
Please note that I did not bash God, Christianity, The Bible, Homosexuals or even The Way, itself. I simply stated the cold hard facts.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shiftthis
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
You guys better go easy on shiftthis before his way corpse leadership finds out he's messing around on GreaseSpot Cafe. Wouldn't want to get him into trouble ya know.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Yes.
Quite a lot of people. Specific focus on one or two at the moment; it takes TIME to really help someone change so drastically.
Who have I cared about? YOU HAVE NO IDEA but actually, genuine care and help - lemme see - several dozen. A hundred, maybe? More? In a very wide variety of ways.
Answer these questions please.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shiftthis
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
These are good questions. Shift??...??
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Sooooooo----from this post, it is obvious you have seen things being done in The Way with which you disagreed. But, you didn't rock the boat because you knew there would be undesirable, personal consequences. And, you feel somewhat powerless because you lack the rank to wield any clout that would result in change.
Please tell me again how this describes a "kinder, gentler" organization.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shiftthis
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tzaia
Jesus hung out with tax collectors, prostitutes, Samaritans, women, and just about every other socially undesirable that one could imagine. I don't see one record where he told them to shape up according to the word or he would shut them out. Perhaps he realized that for some it wasn't a radical conversion, but a lifelong process of progress and failures.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Oh, I think quite a few ladies here can "understand" that. You don't have to look too far to find first-hand testimony of TWI related rape victims here.
Re: pedophiles
Did this "kinder, gentler" organization bother to tell you that they have a documented history of moving offenders from one location to another to avoid detection, much the way the Catholic Church has been doing for quite some time?
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
soul searcher
Yeah, all that. +100
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shiftthis
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
I know what they're saying, (question wasn't really meant for you.)
w/lcm type leaders, you didn't have to listen to what they were saying. You just followed their tone. woof woof. Not really the same.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Because I spent 8 years at international, and two at gunnison. I know them and how they are even though you have no idea what Rosalie and Donna are really like. Go ahead and believe the facade they present to the the rank and file believers. It's easier for folks that have their entire life centered around the way international. I used to be that way, so I can understand.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
well that explains a lot . . . we'll make them love us one way or another . . . .
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shiftthis
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
If they are still teaching that Way followers are a special, superior breed of human that can conjure up special powers to exact physical change through magical thinking, I would be inclined to say they haven't changed.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
what's THE WORD? really you should start a thread explaining that.
I haven't seen Deliverance yet, I'm sure I'm not getting a lot of good jokes.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
I get a laugh how you guys in the way international like to decide who "wants the word." It's the goodness of God that leads a person to repentance and that is shown by unconditional love. But you guys make these judgements about who wants what because based on how quick someone falls into obedience to the way internationals mandates. Egads. And I used to be the same way when I was in der veg. As you are I once was.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Fellow Cafe patrons, it would be better if this were not personal, ie, that could be taken as a personal attack on Shiftthis.
I for one would love to find that there genuinely was a new attitude at TWI. There are (or were) some great people there. And there were some ... (words fail me).
I asked a simple question as a sort of litmus test because of how vilely one particular group of people was treated:
>> How would homosexuals now be treated at the Way?
I got an answer that was less than encouraging, so I asked further questions, to ascertain this new attitude:
>> What about other groups of people who commit lesser sins (in the eyes of TWI). Is the same treatment meted out to them?
And it seems that is a question too hard.
The obviousness that all are sinners and all are deserving of similar treatment (Rom 1:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God") is still not obvious to TWI. There are apparently still unacceptable sins and there are other acceptable sins. (That "all" must be an "all with distinction" or something, not an "all without exception.")
Shiftthis, I'm not going to contact TWI. They marked and avoided me...for doing what the Word said. I was kind to people and treated non-believers and newbies like human beings.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shiftthis
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Hey Shift. Tell me this, am I lying? are my allegations baseless? Am I accusing Rosalie the way Jesus was accused?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.