Well they can't Mark and Avoid ten thousand people, because there aren't 10,000 left (is mostly why)....
And to shiftthis... I'm just a gal that was never in The Way herself, still it's part of my life. You can request to have copies of all those court documents sent to you via the freedom of information act. You'll get quite a bit more than what Greasespot has available. If you get an attorney to make the request, you can get even more (I'm not sure how they can do that, but they can). I did. and there's more than just the suggestion in those documents of the matters I mentioned above. At first LC Martindale was going to fight the suit, during the course of things he was "removed" from running the ministry. This happened after the info on DM and RR was introduced. Donna knew for over a decade that her husband was a soup sandwich for sex. So she formed other attachments.
Anyways, you're right about one thing shiftthis, If they find you looking into it, or asking about it, they'll kick you out. Especially if you are suspected to know the truth. And you won't be the first one that's happened to. I have no personal beef with you.
The Way Ministry is - sort of kinder and gentler now,... no more mass excommunications, but (EASILY) 90% of the old Ministry are gone
As to Asia. All Asia forsook Paul.
But
Paul did not kick them out....
Nor did Paul have sex with their wives and daughters.
There is a difference, you know
Donna and Rosalie knew about L.C. Martindale for over a decade, and said nothing till they were about to be exposed for what they had allowed and were doing. They're not going to let some schmoe like you, learn, and then tell, the truth. They'll crush that, you're right. But it's really pretty easy to find it out A quick visit to the home of Rosie's friends and a chat with the neighbors,.... but I don't want you to get kicked out if you want to stay in.
OK---You went WOW 2x and WD once. Surely, then, you are aware that Wierwille taught cancer is essentially devil possession. Wierwille died of cancer. How exactly, does your "kinder, gentler", new TWI account for the obvious dilemma this presents?
There was a girl who came to a twig I used to go to. This girl was very quiet, none too bright, had been going for TWO YEARS and once the twig coordinator murmured: "I don't know why XXX keeps coming, nothing seems to go in." XXX was a nice girl, pleasant, faithful, had taken PFAL, but so limp and unassertive that you might wonder if she was still alive. Another period of time (a couple of years or so?) passed.
Then suddenly this girl blossomed, seemed utterly changed. Full of life and energy. Overt enthusiasm for God.
And then she met another believer, married, and bore children.
Everyone was amazed at the change. But it took a long long time to happen.
What if she had been a homosexual looking for a safe place to reassess her life?
She'd long since have been run off, never got the opportunity to see patient unconditional love.
Never seen that goodness of God that leads to change.
(Actually she would have been "run off" under late-LCM as "dead wood" or "unproductive evil".)
I've said this before, but one of the more curious and rather distasteful personality traits that my ex-Way friend seemed to have acquired during her twenty-year plus stay in The Way was this irrational condemnation of gay people. I guess I tend to overlook negative personality traits in people I like.
well that means you refuse to believe what GOD says in his WORD about homosexaulity. i thought greasespot cafe was a place for believers who were wrongly kicked out of the ministry. i see that unbelievers reside here to. if your not into GOD and HIS word why are you here ? is it to stir up trouble amongst people ? GOD says homosexuality is wrong. and no its not o.k. for homosexuals (male or female) who know THE WORD to stay in the closet and attend fellowship. i never typed that and dont go saying i did. you should read what i typed again. end of story !
Um, scripture says lying is wrong....ever tell a lie? Scripture says pride is a sin....ever been prideful? Scripture says discontentment is a sin....ever been discontent? Scripture says being un-thankfulness is a sin......ever not been thankful? Scripture says selfishness is a sin.....ever been selfish? Here are a few more, lack of self-control, anger, envy, jealousy, worldliness, sins of the tongue......AND ta da judgmentalism!!
Ever go to fellowship having those in your closet?
The gospel is ONLY for sinners.....perfect people don't need it......the gospel is not just for salvation, but to enable us to deal with the ongoing activity of sin in our lives.
Now, knowing all that, where do you think someone grappling with some kind of sin.....should actually be??
I've said this before, but one of the more curious and rather distasteful personality traits that my ex-Way friend seemed to have acquired during her twenty-year plus stay in The Way was this irrational condemnation of gay people. I guess I tend to overlook negative personality traits in people I like.
It's not hard to understand, soul searcher.
The Way taught that homosexuality is caused by a devil spirit. By associating with a homosexual, you were associating/conversing with a devil spirit. Plus, there were, supposedly, spy-type spirits (familiar spirits) that kept track of your conversations and such. They could use that info at a future date, to their advantage.
The Way taught that homosexuality is caused by a devil spirit. By associating with a homosexual, you were associating/conversing with a devil spirit. Plus, there were, supposedly, spy-type spirits (familiar spirits) that kept track of your conversations and such. They could use that info at a future date, to their advantage.
My God, that is just freaking wacko! Shame they believe that to be true.
The Way taught that homosexuality is caused by a devil spirit. By associating with a homosexual, you were associating/conversing with a devil spirit. Plus, there were, supposedly, spy-type spirits (familiar spirits) that kept track of your conversations and such. They could use that info at a future date, to their advantage.
Some of the sweetest people I know are devil spirits, I mean gay. TWI is run by two . . . . ..women???
i have read post here about sexual abuse but non of that ever went on in the twigs i went to or ran. why didnt these women call the cops if they were raped(sexually abused)? i am also not saying if i did or didnt cause i dont know.
Just because it didn't happen to you or you didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen. I was with TWI for 18 years and never saw or heard any of this until the big "POP" revelation.
I recently finished Kristen Skegdell's book, Losing the Way. If anyone wants to understand how devious and manipulative VPW, his followers, and his successors were, this book spells it out clearly. It was all about subtle but powerful control and the underminig of one's sanity all in the name of God.
i have read post here about sexual abuse but non of that ever went on in the twigs i went to or ran. why didnt these women call the cops if they were raped(sexually abused)? i am also not saying if i did or didnt cause i dont know.
I love the logic here. Shift, you basically turn around and blame the victims and then back-peddle so you don't really appear to be doing that. Nice. Real nice.
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Matthew 18
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
So God forgave us all our sins...
Ephesians 2: 1-6
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
I guess these days,....... you have to be born into the household via the first birth, otherwise you're not allowed into the house?
Quiet down now. Y'all seem to have frightened Shiftthis away.
Or has he really got no answers?
Nah, he is in counseling with his Branch coordinator right about now for posting on da Grease Spot. After all, nothing but a bunch of posessos on the evil internet ya know.
I would like shiftthis to know that a region coordinator told me in 2004 not to call the police on my then-husband when he assaulted me. he scared me into keeping my mouth shut by convincing me the state would take my children away from me. what he did was ILLEGAL and did indescribable harm to me and my children. that dumbass is still a coordinator.
yes it has to be done on an individual basis , not one size fits all. people need to be given time to believe THE WORD and grow.
Which part of THE WORD are you talking about? You do remember that adherence to Jewish law fell (rather quickly) to the wayside to accommodate the Gentiles when it came to food. At that time there was no "WORD" other than the Hebrew scriptures with all its dietary laws. Yet, when those dietary laws and circumcision became an obstacle to receiving the good news, they were set aside.
I'm reminded of the Ethiopian eunuch that traveled to Jerusalem to worship in the temple. However, he ran into several unsurmountable obstacles once he got there. One, he was the wrong color, and two he had no testicles. He wasn't allowed to enter the temple due to his "defect" (apparently his defect was flagrant). He was headed back home when he came upon Philip. Philip shares the good news with him - fully aware of the Ethiopian's defect and what that meant in Jewish society. The Ethiopian asks whether the good news is for him - a humiliated and defective man who has no hope of descendants <== a big deal back in those days - and he asks to be baptized. Philip didn't flinch. He baptized him. Humiliated, rejected, and a social outcast (sounds like Jesus) - he came to know the Lord. Where did Philip go in "THE WORD" to know if it was ok to do that? Maybe he went into Isaiah 56 where God says:
"Maintain justice and do what is right, for my salvation is close at hand and my righteousness will soon be revealed.
Blessed is the man who does this, the man who holds it fast, who keeps the Sabbath without desecrating it, and keeps his hand from doing any evil."
Let no foreigner who has bound himself to the LORD say, "The LORD will surely exclude me from his people." And let not any eunuch complain, "I am only a dry tree."
For this is what the LORD says: "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant-- to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will not be cut off.
And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD to serve him, to love the name of the LORD, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant-- these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations."
Here we have two instances: One where "THE WORD" was set aside in order to welcome what would be outcasts (Gentiles), and one where "THE WORD" is used to welcome another outcast even though "THE WORD" has specific regulations that forbid any person whose penis is crushed or who lacks testicles to enter the temple. In each case, common decency, compassion, and mercy is considered more important than "it is written."
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Gen-2
Kinder & Gentler? Well they can't Mark and Avoid ten thousand people, because there aren't 10,000 left (is mostly why).... And to shiftthis... I'm just a gal that was never in The Way herself,
Twinky
Shiftthis posted a number of quotes recently. These are some extracts (edited a little to correct some spelling bloopers): Shiftthis is at pains to emphasise how much TWI has changed since Martind
OldSkool
Before I start I am going to give enough personal information so that whoever is current WAYGB will know who I am. John if that's you, and I assume it is, you can rest assured I would not be here on G
Gen-2
Kinder & Gentler?
Well they can't Mark and Avoid ten thousand people, because there aren't 10,000 left (is mostly why)....
And to shiftthis... I'm just a gal that was never in The Way herself, still it's part of my life. You can request to have copies of all those court documents sent to you via the freedom of information act. You'll get quite a bit more than what Greasespot has available. If you get an attorney to make the request, you can get even more (I'm not sure how they can do that, but they can). I did. and there's more than just the suggestion in those documents of the matters I mentioned above. At first LC Martindale was going to fight the suit, during the course of things he was "removed" from running the ministry. This happened after the info on DM and RR was introduced. Donna knew for over a decade that her husband was a soup sandwich for sex. So she formed other attachments.
Anyways, you're right about one thing shiftthis, If they find you looking into it, or asking about it, they'll kick you out. Especially if you are suspected to know the truth. And you won't be the first one that's happened to. I have no personal beef with you.
The Way Ministry is - sort of kinder and gentler now,... no more mass excommunications, but (EASILY) 90% of the old Ministry are gone
As to Asia. All Asia forsook Paul.
But
Paul did not kick them out....
Nor did Paul have sex with their wives and daughters.
There is a difference, you know
Donna and Rosalie knew about L.C. Martindale for over a decade, and said nothing till they were about to be exposed for what they had allowed and were doing. They're not going to let some schmoe like you, learn, and then tell, the truth. They'll crush that, you're right. But it's really pretty easy to find it out A quick visit to the home of Rosie's friends and a chat with the neighbors,.... but I don't want you to get kicked out if you want to stay in.
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waysider
Geeze! I haven't seen a straw man that was nearly this flamboyant in quite a long while.
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Bolshevik
I haven't seen a thread like this in awhile.
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waysider
OK---You went WOW 2x and WD once. Surely, then, you are aware that Wierwille taught cancer is essentially devil possession. Wierwille died of cancer. How exactly, does your "kinder, gentler", new TWI account for the obvious dilemma this presents?
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Twinky
How long does it take to change?
There was a girl who came to a twig I used to go to. This girl was very quiet, none too bright, had been going for TWO YEARS and once the twig coordinator murmured: "I don't know why XXX keeps coming, nothing seems to go in." XXX was a nice girl, pleasant, faithful, had taken PFAL, but so limp and unassertive that you might wonder if she was still alive. Another period of time (a couple of years or so?) passed.
Then suddenly this girl blossomed, seemed utterly changed. Full of life and energy. Overt enthusiasm for God.
And then she met another believer, married, and bore children.
Everyone was amazed at the change. But it took a long long time to happen.
What if she had been a homosexual looking for a safe place to reassess her life?
She'd long since have been run off, never got the opportunity to see patient unconditional love.
Never seen that goodness of God that leads to change.
(Actually she would have been "run off" under late-LCM as "dead wood" or "unproductive evil".)
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OldSkool
Hang in there shift. After you answer my question (if you do) I am going to leave you alone.
Shift must have had to get to fellowship.
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waysider
It ain't easy finding out the Easter Bunny isn't real. We've all been there. It takes a while for the denial to subside.
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soul searcher
I've said this before, but one of the more curious and rather distasteful personality traits that my ex-Way friend seemed to have acquired during her twenty-year plus stay in The Way was this irrational condemnation of gay people. I guess I tend to overlook negative personality traits in people I like.
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geisha779
Um, scripture says lying is wrong....ever tell a lie? Scripture says pride is a sin....ever been prideful? Scripture says discontentment is a sin....ever been discontent? Scripture says being un-thankfulness is a sin......ever not been thankful? Scripture says selfishness is a sin.....ever been selfish? Here are a few more, lack of self-control, anger, envy, jealousy, worldliness, sins of the tongue......AND ta da judgmentalism!!
Ever go to fellowship having those in your closet?
The gospel is ONLY for sinners.....perfect people don't need it......the gospel is not just for salvation, but to enable us to deal with the ongoing activity of sin in our lives.
Now, knowing all that, where do you think someone grappling with some kind of sin.....should actually be??
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waysider
It's not hard to understand, soul searcher.
The Way taught that homosexuality is caused by a devil spirit. By associating with a homosexual, you were associating/conversing with a devil spirit. Plus, there were, supposedly, spy-type spirits (familiar spirits) that kept track of your conversations and such. They could use that info at a future date, to their advantage.
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OldSkool
My God, that is just freaking wacko! Shame they believe that to be true.
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waysider
Straight out of the AC syllabus, page 21 or so. (1971)
paraphrased, of course.
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OldSkool
The "new" ac syllabus was watered down quite a bit but, in hind sight, was just as ridiculous.
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geisha779
Some of the sweetest people I know are devil spirits, I mean gay. TWI is run by two . . . . ..women???
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Rejoice
Just because it didn't happen to you or you didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen. I was with TWI for 18 years and never saw or heard any of this until the big "POP" revelation.
I recently finished Kristen Skegdell's book, Losing the Way. If anyone wants to understand how devious and manipulative VPW, his followers, and his successors were, this book spells it out clearly. It was all about subtle but powerful control and the underminig of one's sanity all in the name of God.
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OldSkool
I love the logic here. Shift, you basically turn around and blame the victims and then back-peddle so you don't really appear to be doing that. Nice. Real nice.
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Ham
a "snip" from Gen-2..
which is why, they do their Mark and Avoiding in advance. "Homos" need not apply, they are already on the "list"..
along with those who are "unproductive".. ie. can't sell icebergs to the Eskimo..
along with.. the weak, the sick, the dying..
its (previously defined) their fault you know..
da vicster told me so after all..
What I find interesting, is their selective "enforcement" of the old testament..
very, very selective..
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Gen-2
Oh MY GOD!!!!!! You mean,............................
..........................................................................
They're sinners?
Rom 3:23;
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Matthew 18
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
So God forgave us all our sins...
Ephesians 2: 1-6
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
I guess these days,....... you have to be born into the household via the first birth, otherwise you're not allowed into the house?
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potato
or be ready to give up your evil ways on the porch before you're allowed to enter.
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OldSkool
See, I would never allowed in. I only drink beer on the front porch, not give up evil ways.
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Twinky
Quiet down now. Y'all seem to have frightened Shiftthis away.
Or has he really got no answers?
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OldSkool
Nah, he is in counseling with his Branch coordinator right about now for posting on da Grease Spot. After all, nothing but a bunch of posessos on the evil internet ya know.
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potato
I would like shiftthis to know that a region coordinator told me in 2004 not to call the police on my then-husband when he assaulted me. he scared me into keeping my mouth shut by convincing me the state would take my children away from me. what he did was ILLEGAL and did indescribable harm to me and my children. that dumbass is still a coordinator.
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Tzaia
Which part of THE WORD are you talking about? You do remember that adherence to Jewish law fell (rather quickly) to the wayside to accommodate the Gentiles when it came to food. At that time there was no "WORD" other than the Hebrew scriptures with all its dietary laws. Yet, when those dietary laws and circumcision became an obstacle to receiving the good news, they were set aside.
I'm reminded of the Ethiopian eunuch that traveled to Jerusalem to worship in the temple. However, he ran into several unsurmountable obstacles once he got there. One, he was the wrong color, and two he had no testicles. He wasn't allowed to enter the temple due to his "defect" (apparently his defect was flagrant). He was headed back home when he came upon Philip. Philip shares the good news with him - fully aware of the Ethiopian's defect and what that meant in Jewish society. The Ethiopian asks whether the good news is for him - a humiliated and defective man who has no hope of descendants <== a big deal back in those days - and he asks to be baptized. Philip didn't flinch. He baptized him. Humiliated, rejected, and a social outcast (sounds like Jesus) - he came to know the Lord. Where did Philip go in "THE WORD" to know if it was ok to do that? Maybe he went into Isaiah 56 where God says:
"Maintain justice and do what is right, for my salvation is close at hand and my righteousness will soon be revealed.
Blessed is the man who does this, the man who holds it fast, who keeps the Sabbath without desecrating it, and keeps his hand from doing any evil."
Let no foreigner who has bound himself to the LORD say, "The LORD will surely exclude me from his people." And let not any eunuch complain, "I am only a dry tree."
For this is what the LORD says: "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant-- to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will not be cut off.
And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD to serve him, to love the name of the LORD, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant-- these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations."
Here we have two instances: One where "THE WORD" was set aside in order to welcome what would be outcasts (Gentiles), and one where "THE WORD" is used to welcome another outcast even though "THE WORD" has specific regulations that forbid any person whose penis is crushed or who lacks testicles to enter the temple. In each case, common decency, compassion, and mercy is considered more important than "it is written."
How can I, in all good conscience, do less?
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