Hi Geisha, thanks for posting. Actually I touch on a little bit of what you just posted on the first page of the web site that I just recently placed on the world wide web. Although, the overall subject of the site is a different one with a different emphasis. This one deals with the reconciliation of all through the Lord Jesus Christ. You might like the site. Have a great day.
I have been to your site before! I looked at it once or twice from a link somewhere here...maybe your profile. I have to say that there are days I want to believe you are right....many days....and I actually was attracted to universalism at one time. God is a big God...and I surely don't know it all...but, at this point in time...I find it hard to reconcile universalism with my understanding of scripture.
I hold a high view of God....which means that I believe God is holy, perfectly moral, just, and right....scary to my sense of what is right...at times. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. I try to adjust my understanding to His ways....truly I often miss the mark....but, looking at universalism(I want it to be true) it just doesn't jive with what I see. :(
Geisha, you sound like 99% of the population. New knowledge and concepts take time to learn and adjust to. Give it some time though. Down the road you might find this to be true. Thanks for considering the possibility though. And with my site the first page is a good starting point. I recommend reading that page first. Then go to what ever page that seems good to you. Of course, to read some teachings go to the bible teaching page and see what is available. I have links toward the bottom of this page. I have teachings from 5 other teachers on my site and I think they are all very good teachers.
Sunesis, are you familiar with the year of Jubilee? It is part of the Old Testament law. It is where at the end of every 50 year period all debts for individual people are forgiven. So if God thought enough of man to make that part of the law. Why wouldn't God follow the same thing and forgive man's sins, which are often looked at scripturally as a form of debt, at the end of a certain time period?
Also historically as I have read, the reconciliation of all to God at the end of time, was a popular belief among believers in Jesus Christ up to about the 4th century.
Thanks for checking this out Sunesis, but there may be more of this to uncover.
So,... if the gathering together is the resurrection of the just, then we are all going to New Jerusalem, no? That is our Hope? None of us are going to heaven if New Jerusalem is our destination , because that's on earth
... and so on.
But you can see what I'm getting at. There are several points here that would resultingly conflict. "Seated in the heavenlies", for us, becomes - just a Figure of Speech.
Just asking....
The gathering together is detailed for us in 1Thessalonians. It is part and parcel with, if not, the same as, the "first resurrection".
"13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." - 1Thessalonians 4:13-17 NIV
The resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous is a separate, singular event. Both events, the "first resurrection" and the "resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous" are described in Revelation.
"4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years." - Revelation 20:4-6
The term "resurrection of the just and the unjust" denotes the far-reaching nature of the resurrection. It is not a teaching of two separate resurrections, one for "the just", and one for "the unjust". But rather it is alluding to the propitiatory nature of the sacrifice of Christ and the restorative benefits of the Ransom. Paul spoke of this in his first letter to Timothy.
"3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time." - 1Timothy 2:3-6
That makes no sense. In your first two quoted passages, different people are mentioned, and they take place at different places. Unless you are saying, Ignore that, it's all the same. No offense but there is dissimilarity there that your words do not clear up. Your third passage has little to do with reconciling the differences of the first two insofar as times and places are concerned.
As an example, all of those in the second quoted passage were dead and then resurrected. In the first quoted passage, some were dead and resurrected, and some are alive.
And then The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. Different events, different times, different people.
That makes no sense. In your first two quoted passages, different people are mentioned, and they take place at different places. Unless you are saying, Ignore that, it's all the same. No offense but there is dissimilarity there that your words do not clear up. Your third passage has little to do with reconciling the differences of the first two insofar as times and places are concerned.
As an example, all of those in the second quoted passage were dead and then resurrected. In the first quoted passage, some were dead and resurrected, and some are alive.
And then The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. Different events, different times, different people.
Hello Gen-2.
Perhaps I am just not following your response correctly, but, to which "different places" are you referring, between what was mentioned in 1Thessalonians and Revelation?
The "first resurrection" mentioned by John is for those will reign with Christ for a thousand years. Those who will reign with Christ have also "been given authority to judge" with Christ. Who will they be judging? "The rest of the dead".
The "rest of the dead" are not judged while still asleep in death, but rather once they are resurrected. The 'second', or 'general' resurrection will provide the effect of the ransom to the countless billions asleep in the grave. Paul spoke of this resurrection to Governor Felix. His words:
"15and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked." - Acts 24:15 NIV
"15having a hope in God, which (A)these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked." - Acts 24:15 NASB
"15having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, [that] there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;" - Acts 24:15 YLT
"5having hope towards God, which they themselves also receive, that there is to be a resurrection both of just and unjust." - Acts 24:15 Darby
Notice that in all the translations above the resurrection is referred to in the singular, "a resurrection" or "a rising again". It is not spoken of in the plural. It is then described as to those who will be raised as a part of that singular resurrection, "both the righteous and the wicked", "righteous and unrighteous", and "just and unjust". Again, this is ONE resurrection, the 'second' or 'general' resurrection. The "first resurrection" being for those described in 1Thessalonians as "dead in Christ". The 'second' resurrection is for those who will be judged by the kings and priests that are raised in the "first resurrection".
I believe God will get me up from the dead, and that I have eternal life. I believe that the Bible tells us very little about eternity. That's a LOT more than any of us can imagine. We will know, even as we are also known, and not some poor reflection. We will have new bodies with new capabilities.
I don't worry about other people's allusions to what they think the Bible means, nor do I make leaps of logic to fill in gaps. It's enough for me to trust God to do what's best in His mind, for me. That is my Hope.
I believe that Revelation Chapter 20, vss. 4-6 discusses those beheaded for God, and it tells us things they hadn't done. Now you can add in anything else you want there, but God doesnt. I do think that this is where people say things are alluded to. I just don't have any allusions. I was never beheaded, at least not so far. My hope in in God, My hope is in Christ, not allusions, and in what he says, and not in what men try to tell me He really meant when he said it. There is nothing in the Book of Revelation to support the Body of Christ's inclusion in verse 4 of chapter 20,... many of the dead were never beheaded, and many are alive.
I believe God will get me up from the dead, and that I have eternal life. I believe that the Bible tells us very little about eternity. That's a LOT more than any of us can imagine. We will know, even as we are also known, and not some poor reflection. We will have new bodies with new capabilities.
I don't worry about other people's allusions to what they think the Bible means, nor do I make leaps of logic to fill in gaps. It's enough for me to trust God to do what's best in His mind, for me. That is my Hope.
I believe that Revelation Chapter 20, vss. 4-6 discusses those beheaded for God, and it tells us things they hadn't done. Now you can add in anything else you want there, but God doesnt. I do think that this is where people say things are alluded to. I just don't have any allusions. I was never beheaded, at least not so far. My hope in in God, My hope is in Christ, not allusions, and in what he says, and not in what men try to tell me He really meant when he said it. There is nothing in the Book of Revelation to support the Body of Christ's inclusion in verse 4 of chapter 20,... many of the dead were never beheaded, and many are alive.
There
Hello again, Gen-2.
I must have missed where I made leaps of logic or stated things that are not already stated in the passages provided. I would be happy for you to point them out for me.
I, too, have my hope and faith in God and Christ.
I have more to say, but little time at the moment. I will get back to this as soon as I am available.
I firmly believe that there will be time points involved in the "first" and 'second' resurrections. While I do believe that the "first resurrection" is the "better resurrection" spoken of at Hebrews 11:35, and therefore 'first' in qualitative terms, I also believe that the "first resurrection" occurs prior to the 'second' or 'general' resurrection, and is therefore 'first' in temporal terms as well.
To those with eternity time means very little, or at least the passing of time means very little. On the other hand, even God, the only being who has always had time on his side, so to speak, has a sense of punctuality and a definite time-table for certain things to occur.
I must have missed where I made leaps of logic or stated things that are not already stated in the passages provided. I would be happy for you to point them out for me.
I, too, have my hope and faith in God and Christ.
I have more to say, but little time at the moment. I will get back to this as soon as I am available.
Agape
SlaveForJah
"The gathering together is detailed for us in 1Thessalonians. It is part and parcel with, if not, the same as, the "first resurrection". "
You're not alone in saying this, but the statement that the two are the same is pure conjecture. There aren't any scriptures tying these two events together, but there is a lot of speculation that gets bantered about on the matter. In the end once all the bantering is done, people resolve what they will believe that isn't written with great scriptural proofs. If you're honest about it, it can be amusing to watch the birth of another new religion each time.
The Bible never says the remark I quoted above. It's a leap of logic, based on what some have previously claimed was "logical" others have also made that leap. But it's not one God made, or told us to make - so I don't.
So,... if the gathering together is the resurrection of the just, then we are all going to New Jerusalem, no? That is our Hope? None of us are going to heaven if New Jerusalem is our destination , because that's on earth
... and so on.
But you can see what I'm getting at. There are several points here that would resultingly conflict. "Seated in the heavenlies", for us, becomes - just a Figure of Speech.
Just asking....
"The gathering together is detailed for us in 1Thessalonians. It is part and parcel with, if not, the same as, the "first resurrection". "
You're not alone in saying this, but the statement that the two are the same is pure conjecture. There aren't any scriptures tying these two events together, but there is a lot of speculation that gets bantered about on the matter. In the end once all the bantering is done, people resolve what they will believe that isn't written with great scriptural proofs. If you're honest about it, it can be amusing to watch the birth of another new religion each time.
The Bible never says the remark I quoted above. It's a leap of logic, based on what some have previously claimed was "logical" others have also made that leap. But it's not one God made, or told us to make - so I don't.
Dear friend...........
I hope and pray we get to continue this conversation some day soon, before we get to find out for ourselves. :)
I kinda find it funny in a away, Paul makes a call about a body of which Yeshua is the head, and all Asia walks away from him at his announcement. Today, this body will not give up it's spiriting teaching, and a lot of it will not be gathered up, because of spirit teaching?
can the 'dead in Christ' meet those that 'sleep in Jesus'
in the air 'with them' now?
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Which is better?
dead in Christ
sleep in Jesus
we which are alive and remain
brethren?
Seems 'in the air' is where it's happening.
Figure that one out, perhaps we could be comforted.
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Tom
Not sure what you are saying here, Steve, when you say, "I don't think the gift of holy Spirit first poured out on the day of Pentecost is salvation itself." Unless all you mean is that it is not the
JeffSjo
I like it. Much better to be able to face it and deal. Much easier to keep it stuffed away out of sight. Much easier to write them off for the very same faults I myself have. Much easier to think
Gen-2
Since you cannot be PM'd Mark I'll leave this not here for you I'm not sure why you assumed I am one of those "unbiblical" "Rapture" people whom you seem to detest, or why you simply refused to respo
geisha779
I have been to your site before! I looked at it once or twice from a link somewhere here...maybe your profile. I have to say that there are days I want to believe you are right....many days....and I actually was attracted to universalism at one time. God is a big God...and I surely don't know it all...but, at this point in time...I find it hard to reconcile universalism with my understanding of scripture.
I hold a high view of God....which means that I believe God is holy, perfectly moral, just, and right....scary to my sense of what is right...at times. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. I try to adjust my understanding to His ways....truly I often miss the mark....but, looking at universalism(I want it to be true) it just doesn't jive with what I see. :(
Who knows....God is pretty able.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Geisha, you sound like 99% of the population. New knowledge and concepts take time to learn and adjust to. Give it some time though. Down the road you might find this to be true. Thanks for considering the possibility though. And with my site the first page is a good starting point. I recommend reading that page first. Then go to what ever page that seems good to you. Of course, to read some teachings go to the bible teaching page and see what is available. I have links toward the bottom of this page. I have teachings from 5 other teachers on my site and I think they are all very good teachers.
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Sunesis
I don't think so Mark. I too looked at universalism and believed it for a long time, and eventually, according to scripture had to discard it.
Maybe there's a reason most people have rejected it.
Granted, its a wonderful, feel good belief. If it makes you feel better, and to more easily "believe" in God - go for it.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Sunesis, are you familiar with the year of Jubilee? It is part of the Old Testament law. It is where at the end of every 50 year period all debts for individual people are forgiven. So if God thought enough of man to make that part of the law. Why wouldn't God follow the same thing and forgive man's sins, which are often looked at scripturally as a form of debt, at the end of a certain time period?
Also historically as I have read, the reconciliation of all to God at the end of time, was a popular belief among believers in Jesus Christ up to about the 4th century.
Thanks for checking this out Sunesis, but there may be more of this to uncover.
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year2027
God first
thanks Mark Sanguinetti
should I blindly worship your God the God of universalism or your God your way?
I can be not you nor do I want to try
and I visit your site in the past
but you have taught no more than the next guy
I have learn more from guy than who down than the guy who has his head in the clouds
I love you but do know you what it is to love
love comes by understanding what hate it
there many to study God"s word but only to really study it
one can read a meaning but that means he understands it
God said love your brother but do understand what is to love
love is never understand until you what it is to hate
you may know the meaning
until you understand what is to hate you never understand what it is to love
kids have made fun of me I hated my class mates
so I understand hate and love
I hated the Way ministry so know how to love them
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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SlaveForJah
The gathering together is detailed for us in 1Thessalonians. It is part and parcel with, if not, the same as, the "first resurrection".
"13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." - 1Thessalonians 4:13-17 NIV
The resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous is a separate, singular event. Both events, the "first resurrection" and the "resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous" are described in Revelation.
"4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years." - Revelation 20:4-6
The term "resurrection of the just and the unjust" denotes the far-reaching nature of the resurrection. It is not a teaching of two separate resurrections, one for "the just", and one for "the unjust". But rather it is alluding to the propitiatory nature of the sacrifice of Christ and the restorative benefits of the Ransom. Paul spoke of this in his first letter to Timothy.
"3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time." - 1Timothy 2:3-6
Agape
SlaveForJah
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Gen-2
That makes no sense. In your first two quoted passages, different people are mentioned, and they take place at different places. Unless you are saying, Ignore that, it's all the same. No offense but there is dissimilarity there that your words do not clear up. Your third passage has little to do with reconciling the differences of the first two insofar as times and places are concerned.
As an example, all of those in the second quoted passage were dead and then resurrected. In the first quoted passage, some were dead and resurrected, and some are alive.
And then The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. Different events, different times, different people.
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SlaveForJah
Hello Gen-2.
Perhaps I am just not following your response correctly, but, to which "different places" are you referring, between what was mentioned in 1Thessalonians and Revelation?
The "first resurrection" mentioned by John is for those will reign with Christ for a thousand years. Those who will reign with Christ have also "been given authority to judge" with Christ. Who will they be judging? "The rest of the dead".
The "rest of the dead" are not judged while still asleep in death, but rather once they are resurrected. The 'second', or 'general' resurrection will provide the effect of the ransom to the countless billions asleep in the grave. Paul spoke of this resurrection to Governor Felix. His words:
"15and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked." - Acts 24:15 NIV
"15having a hope in God, which (A)these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked." - Acts 24:15 NASB
"15having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, [that] there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;" - Acts 24:15 YLT
"5having hope towards God, which they themselves also receive, that there is to be a resurrection both of just and unjust." - Acts 24:15 Darby
Notice that in all the translations above the resurrection is referred to in the singular, "a resurrection" or "a rising again". It is not spoken of in the plural. It is then described as to those who will be raised as a part of that singular resurrection, "both the righteous and the wicked", "righteous and unrighteous", and "just and unjust". Again, this is ONE resurrection, the 'second' or 'general' resurrection. The "first resurrection" being for those described in 1Thessalonians as "dead in Christ". The 'second' resurrection is for those who will be judged by the kings and priests that are raised in the "first resurrection".
Agape
SlaveForJah
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Gen-2
Perhaps I should be clearer.
I believe God will get me up from the dead, and that I have eternal life. I believe that the Bible tells us very little about eternity. That's a LOT more than any of us can imagine. We will know, even as we are also known, and not some poor reflection. We will have new bodies with new capabilities.
I don't worry about other people's allusions to what they think the Bible means, nor do I make leaps of logic to fill in gaps. It's enough for me to trust God to do what's best in His mind, for me. That is my Hope.
I believe that Revelation Chapter 20, vss. 4-6 discusses those beheaded for God, and it tells us things they hadn't done. Now you can add in anything else you want there, but God doesnt. I do think that this is where people say things are alluded to. I just don't have any allusions. I was never beheaded, at least not so far. My hope in in God, My hope is in Christ, not allusions, and in what he says, and not in what men try to tell me He really meant when he said it. There is nothing in the Book of Revelation to support the Body of Christ's inclusion in verse 4 of chapter 20,... many of the dead were never beheaded, and many are alive.
There
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year2027
God first
thanks SlaveForJah
Are you trying point time as no meaning
to be only one resurrection there not be others
other wise the first is the middle and last
because time does mean nothing
have i got your wave link
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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SlaveForJah
Hello again, Gen-2.
I must have missed where I made leaps of logic or stated things that are not already stated in the passages provided. I would be happy for you to point them out for me.
I, too, have my hope and faith in God and Christ.
I have more to say, but little time at the moment. I will get back to this as soon as I am available.
Agape
SlaveForJah
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SlaveForJah
Hello Roy.
I firmly believe that there will be time points involved in the "first" and 'second' resurrections. While I do believe that the "first resurrection" is the "better resurrection" spoken of at Hebrews 11:35, and therefore 'first' in qualitative terms, I also believe that the "first resurrection" occurs prior to the 'second' or 'general' resurrection, and is therefore 'first' in temporal terms as well.
To those with eternity time means very little, or at least the passing of time means very little. On the other hand, even God, the only being who has always had time on his side, so to speak, has a sense of punctuality and a definite time-table for certain things to occur.
Agape
SlaveForJah
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Gen-2
"The gathering together is detailed for us in 1Thessalonians. It is part and parcel with, if not, the same as, the "first resurrection". "
You're not alone in saying this, but the statement that the two are the same is pure conjecture. There aren't any scriptures tying these two events together, but there is a lot of speculation that gets bantered about on the matter. In the end once all the bantering is done, people resolve what they will believe that isn't written with great scriptural proofs. If you're honest about it, it can be amusing to watch the birth of another new religion each time.
The Bible never says the remark I quoted above. It's a leap of logic, based on what some have previously claimed was "logical" others have also made that leap. But it's not one God made, or told us to make - so I don't.
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year2027
God first
thanks SlaveForJah
if first is the last you could say that
but if it makes no different who was first other than Jesus Christ
but does matter then what then?
you be fighting over nothing?
I am adding points that can chase
to discover the meaning of meaning
not any other thing to make you think
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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JeffSjo
Dear friend...........
I hope and pray we get to continue this conversation some day soon, before we get to find out for ourselves. :)
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teachmevp
I would love to reason this subject matter out with you, but I do not do that spirit body thing? What would you like to know, let's learn?
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teachmevp
I kinda find it funny in a away, Paul makes a call about a body of which Yeshua is the head, and all Asia walks away from him at his announcement. Today, this body will not give up it's spiriting teaching, and a lot of it will not be gathered up, because of spirit teaching?
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Steve Lortz
So do I.
Love,
Steve
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cman
why not find out for ourselves now?
can the 'dead in Christ' meet those that 'sleep in Jesus'
in the air 'with them' now?
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Which is better?
dead in Christ
sleep in Jesus
we which are alive and remain
brethren?
Seems 'in the air' is where it's happening.
Figure that one out, perhaps we could be comforted.
The dead and sleepy ones with the brethren.
Did anyone get missed? Don't think so.
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