So, your needs and wants can't ever be the same thing?
This always confused the heck out of me... But I really like geometry, so that's probably my problem.
It just DOESN'T have that mathematical exactness and scientific precision, does it?
So at best the needs and wants could be next to each other (could connect them with a perpendicular line) perhaps Doc Vic was trying to say equal? I know, I really shouldn't try to make excuses for the man's nonsense, especially because people believe his garbage as biblical.
Vicster's illustration was of a scale and appearently he meant balanced or equal. So to say parallell is error and would always be error no matter the "weight" of the needs and wants that are opposite on a scale.
I didn't get the whole needs and wants parallel as a balance thing. I perceived it more as 2 lines in the same plane. While he didn't explain it that way (or particularly well), my take was that we were to elevate our wants to needs as God wants to provide all our needs. In this scenario, it pays to be high maintenance. When I found out HQ staff was paid on a "needs" basis and that barely covered the basics, it seemed to me that TWI wasn't following its own teaching about that, because VPW made it clear in PFAL that people needed to elevate needs above the basics.
So while PFAL was focused on being a prosperity gospel, TWI went on to redefine what that prosperity was supposed to look like after one took the class - unless one was VPW or one of his chosen. So to many it seemed perfectly logical to chip in money to buy VPW that chopper he so desperately "needed" while clothing and shoeing one's family with hand-me-downs.
I guess it's an all with distinction instead of an all without distinction (or something like that - I'm thankfully starting to forget all the cliches)...
My favorite little bit of double-speak? ... by local leadership: "Well, I'm not telling you what to do, but..."
Excuse me? You AREN'T telling me what to do? How can you even say that line with a straight face??
When everyone in the room knows that you have your head wedged so far up into my business you have to peek out of my navel to see?
When we all know that if I DON'T do what you are telling me to do I will be treated to every kind of disrespect, suspicion, and face-melting session you are in the mood to dish out!!
One time a nurse came to teach us stuff, it was cool . . . anyway she'd talk about, I dunno, dealing with "crazy" people . . .
L!nder would just butt in and say things like "they can't control themselves" or something retarded, the nurse would be like "yes, yes"
Anyway, if you were waybrained you knew he was hinting at debil spurt evidence, if really waytarded you thought it was awesome, if not you wanted him to shut up and let the nice lady talk about reality.
Anyway, I don't know if that's doubletalk or backtalk or what. I wish I could remember more details, and I know I've watched other Rev. Ding-Dongs do this.
Anyway, I don't know if that's doubletalk or backtalk or what. I wish I could remember more details, and I know I've watched other Rev. Ding-Dongs do this.
Oh, it all comes back in waves - give it a little while.
Don't lead anyone to Christ, that is the New Birth, until they've had PFAL because when someone gets saved their guardian angel leaves them. If they haven't learned how to renew their mind yet, they could die. So, leading someone to Christ could kill them(?).
If you pray to God with your own understanding, He can't understand you. That's because God is Spirit and He can only speak to that which He is which is spirit. Therefore, the only way to pray or speak to God is by speaking in tongues. Prayer with the understanding is only for our own believing. Now, it's true that Jesus and others prayed to God with their understanding, but you see, that was a different administration. God has now given the gift of holy spirit, so He only hears us if we speak in tongues. Somehow, between the Gospels and the Epistles, God became stupid and can no longer understand English, or any other man-made language. Oh, we are so privileged! We are the only people in the world who can actually pray to God! No one else. Hmm, I wonder then, how are we able to prophesy and interpret tongues if God doesn't understand English?
Teacher:"The 'Fruit of the Spirit' listed in Galatians 5 is cultivated by 'operating' the manifestations of the spirit. Therefore to have love, peace, joy, etc. you need to speak in tongues. If you speak in tongues and still don't exhibit this promised fruit, it's because you're not renewing your mind."
Student:"Excuse me, let me make sure I'm understanding this correctly. You say that the way someone cultivates the 'fruit of the spirit' in their lives is by manifesting the spirit, which is speaking in tongues, right?"
Teacher:"Right."
Student:But if someone is speaking in tongues and still not cultivating this 'fruit', then it's because they're not renewing their mind, right?
Teacher:"Right."
Student:"Does speaking in tongues cause someone to renew their mind?"
Teacher:"No. Flesh is flesh, spirit is spirit. Renewing one's mind is something we do in the senses world and has nothing to do with speaking in tongues."
Student:(looking bewildered) Well, then, why even bother speaking in tongues if cultivating fruit of the spirit really requires renewing one's mind?"
Teacher:"Well, uh..."
Student:"You certainly aren't suggesting that God is a mindless vending machine that only spits out love, joy, peace, etc. only if you plop in your "coin" of speaking in tonues, are you?"
Teacher:"Please hold your questions until after the last session."
Disclaimer: I made up this conversation only to illustrate the double-talk of TWI doctrine. I did not actually witness or take part in a conversation such as this. Also, I happen to believe in speaking in tongues. I just don't think TWI had it right.
Whenever you see the word All, you need to ask yourself is that ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION, or ALL WITHOUT DISTINCTION.
I think it was in my 3rd or 4th taking of PFAL that the coordinator pointed out what really VPW meant to say was ALL WITH DISTINCTION, not ALL WITHOUT DISTINCTION. Of course by this time I was 2 or 3 years into using the word All meaning WITHOUT EXCEPTION or WITHOUT DISTINCTION.
If only I had used my senses more it could have helped me realize that All without any distinction at all would make All devoid of any meaning at all.
The "all without distinction"-"all without exception" terminology is used by Bullinger in How to Enjoy the Bible. Since, by his examples, "all without distinction" meant all within a certain class, eventually TWI went to "all with distinction," which actually makes a bit more sense.
E.g., "Jesus is the Savior of all men." Will all men be saved? No, so it is not "all without exception." All men who ARE saved, however, are saved by Jesus, so it is "all with(out) distinction."
The "all without distinction"-"all without exception" terminology is used by Bullinger in How to Enjoy the Bible. Since, by his examples, "all without distinction" meant all within a certain class, eventually TWI went to "all with distinction," which actually makes a bit more sense.
E.g., "Jesus is the Savior of all men." Will all men be saved? No, so it is not "all without exception." All men who ARE saved, however, are saved by Jesus, so it is "all with(out) distinction."
George
Perhaps this is another example of taking a simple idea and obfuscating it for the sake of seeming intelligent?
The common usage of the word "all" naturally, at times, limits it to all within a certain classification. I.E. "She ate all the ice cream." Now this is where Vicster comes in and says "She didn't eat all the ice cream in the world! She ate all the ice cream that was in her little quart container! Heh - you had to see it in the original." And we all ewww and ahhh and are just so electrified.
But even if we say all the people are saved and we mean all the people it's still limited by classification - people! How bout it.?
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OldSkool
Yes it is. And I just realized the 5 steps never tell you how to get it. Just talk about it in a circular fashion. Wait I think I am seeing a pattern here....
waysider
You are completely, completely complete------so speak in tongues much to develope your inner spirit.
geisha779
What's not to get? That is as clear as.......mud. Scary thing is....there was a time I actually understood that quote.
JavaJane
Needs and wants parallel... ??
Parallel lines never meet?
So, your needs and wants can't ever be the same thing?
This always confused the heck out of me... But I really like geometry, so that's probably my problem.
It just DOESN'T have that mathematical exactness and scientific precision, does it?
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outandabout
I never got that either.
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OldSkool
So at best the needs and wants could be next to each other (could connect them with a perpendicular line) perhaps Doc Vic was trying to say equal? I know, I really shouldn't try to make excuses for the man's nonsense, especially because people believe his garbage as biblical.
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OldSkool
Ok, my wife straightened me out on this one -
Vicster's illustration was of a scale and appearently he meant balanced or equal. So to say parallell is error and would always be error no matter the "weight" of the needs and wants that are opposite on a scale.
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Tzaia
I didn't get the whole needs and wants parallel as a balance thing. I perceived it more as 2 lines in the same plane. While he didn't explain it that way (or particularly well), my take was that we were to elevate our wants to needs as God wants to provide all our needs. In this scenario, it pays to be high maintenance. When I found out HQ staff was paid on a "needs" basis and that barely covered the basics, it seemed to me that TWI wasn't following its own teaching about that, because VPW made it clear in PFAL that people needed to elevate needs above the basics.
So while PFAL was focused on being a prosperity gospel, TWI went on to redefine what that prosperity was supposed to look like after one took the class - unless one was VPW or one of his chosen. So to many it seemed perfectly logical to chip in money to buy VPW that chopper he so desperately "needed" while clothing and shoeing one's family with hand-me-downs.
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JavaJane
I'm just glad that confused some other people, too...
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JavaJane
You're always welcome at the Way!
vs
Mark and Avoid
I guess it's an all with distinction instead of an all without distinction (or something like that - I'm thankfully starting to forget all the cliches)...
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outintexas
From the orginal godbreathed piffle...
The word "all" can either mean "all without distiction" or "all without exception."
Huh?
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JavaJane
Thanks! I couldn't remember how it read in the original...
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OldSkool
from - http://www.thefreedictionary.com/all
all (ôl)
adj.
1. Being or representing the entire or total number, amount, or quantity: All the windows are open. Deal all the cards. See Synonyms at whole.
2. Constituting, being, or representing the total extent or the whole: all Christendom.
3. Being the utmost possible of: argued the case in all seriousness.
4. Every: got into all manner of trouble.
5. Any whatsoever: beyond all doubt.
6. Pennsylvania Finished; used up: The apples are all. See Regional Note at gum band.
7. Informal Being more than one: Who all came to the party? See Regional Note at you-all.
n.
The whole of one's fortune, resources, or energy; everything one has: The brave defenders gave their all.
pron.
1. The entire or total number, amount, or quantity; totality: All of us are sick. All that I have is yours.
2. Everyone; everything: justice for all.
adv.
1. Wholly; completely: a room painted all white; directions that were all wrong.
2. Each; apiece: a score of five all.
3. So much: I am all the better for that experience.
I guess we just need to see it in the original
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Tzaia
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TheHighWay
My favorite little bit of double-speak? ... by local leadership: "Well, I'm not telling you what to do, but..."
Excuse me? You AREN'T telling me what to do? How can you even say that line with a straight face??
When everyone in the room knows that you have your head wedged so far up into my business you have to peek out of my navel to see?
When we all know that if I DON'T do what you are telling me to do I will be treated to every kind of disrespect, suspicion, and face-melting session you are in the mood to dish out!!
"Aren't telling me what to do" my butt...
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OldSkool
Well, after all, a suggestion from a leader is paramount to a command! But I'm not trying to tell you what to do...
I see the first edition was penned in 1918.
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Tzaia
Exactly - and hear here some of us thought he was a frickin' genius.
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outandabout
"The door swings both ways" but don't you ever dare try to leave TWI!
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Bolshevik
I could caste the spurts out . . . but if they don't renews their mind, they'll jump on in agin'
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Bolshevik
One time a nurse came to teach us stuff, it was cool . . . anyway she'd talk about, I dunno, dealing with "crazy" people . . .
L!nder would just butt in and say things like "they can't control themselves" or something retarded, the nurse would be like "yes, yes"
Anyway, if you were waybrained you knew he was hinting at debil spurt evidence, if really waytarded you thought it was awesome, if not you wanted him to shut up and let the nice lady talk about reality.
Anyway, I don't know if that's doubletalk or backtalk or what. I wish I could remember more details, and I know I've watched other Rev. Ding-Dongs do this.
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OldSkool
Oh, it all comes back in waves - give it a little while.
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waysider
I don't feel like looking up the exact citations, though I will if it's deemed necessary.
In the Foundational Class, we are taught that spirit has no form or comeliness.
In the Advanced Class, we are taught that spirits can take on physical form. (ectoplasm)
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soul searcher
Maybe you had to be "spiritually advanced" to understand?
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Broken Arrow
Don't lead anyone to Christ, that is the New Birth, until they've had PFAL because when someone gets saved their guardian angel leaves them. If they haven't learned how to renew their mind yet, they could die. So, leading someone to Christ could kill them(?).
If you pray to God with your own understanding, He can't understand you. That's because God is Spirit and He can only speak to that which He is which is spirit. Therefore, the only way to pray or speak to God is by speaking in tongues. Prayer with the understanding is only for our own believing. Now, it's true that Jesus and others prayed to God with their understanding, but you see, that was a different administration. God has now given the gift of holy spirit, so He only hears us if we speak in tongues. Somehow, between the Gospels and the Epistles, God became stupid and can no longer understand English, or any other man-made language. Oh, we are so privileged! We are the only people in the world who can actually pray to God! No one else. Hmm, I wonder then, how are we able to prophesy and interpret tongues if God doesn't understand English?
Teacher:"The 'Fruit of the Spirit' listed in Galatians 5 is cultivated by 'operating' the manifestations of the spirit. Therefore to have love, peace, joy, etc. you need to speak in tongues. If you speak in tongues and still don't exhibit this promised fruit, it's because you're not renewing your mind."
Student:"Excuse me, let me make sure I'm understanding this correctly. You say that the way someone cultivates the 'fruit of the spirit' in their lives is by manifesting the spirit, which is speaking in tongues, right?"
Teacher:"Right."
Student:But if someone is speaking in tongues and still not cultivating this 'fruit', then it's because they're not renewing their mind, right?
Teacher:"Right."
Student:"Does speaking in tongues cause someone to renew their mind?"
Teacher:"No. Flesh is flesh, spirit is spirit. Renewing one's mind is something we do in the senses world and has nothing to do with speaking in tongues."
Student:(looking bewildered) Well, then, why even bother speaking in tongues if cultivating fruit of the spirit really requires renewing one's mind?"
Teacher:"Well, uh..."
Student:"You certainly aren't suggesting that God is a mindless vending machine that only spits out love, joy, peace, etc. only if you plop in your "coin" of speaking in tonues, are you?"
Teacher:"Please hold your questions until after the last session."
Disclaimer: I made up this conversation only to illustrate the double-talk of TWI doctrine. I did not actually witness or take part in a conversation such as this. Also, I happen to believe in speaking in tongues. I just don't think TWI had it right.
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Human without the bean
Whenever you see the word All, you need to ask yourself is that ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION, or ALL WITHOUT DISTINCTION.
I think it was in my 3rd or 4th taking of PFAL that the coordinator pointed out what really VPW meant to say was ALL WITH DISTINCTION, not ALL WITHOUT DISTINCTION. Of course by this time I was 2 or 3 years into using the word All meaning WITHOUT EXCEPTION or WITHOUT DISTINCTION.
If only I had used my senses more it could have helped me realize that All without any distinction at all would make All devoid of any meaning at all.
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GeorgeStGeorge
The "all without distinction"-"all without exception" terminology is used by Bullinger in How to Enjoy the Bible. Since, by his examples, "all without distinction" meant all within a certain class, eventually TWI went to "all with distinction," which actually makes a bit more sense.
E.g., "Jesus is the Savior of all men." Will all men be saved? No, so it is not "all without exception." All men who ARE saved, however, are saved by Jesus, so it is "all with(out) distinction."
George
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OldSkool
The common usage of the word "all" naturally, at times, limits it to all within a certain classification. I.E. "She ate all the ice cream." Now this is where Vicster comes in and says "She didn't eat all the ice cream in the world! She ate all the ice cream that was in her little quart container! Heh - you had to see it in the original." And we all ewww and ahhh and are just so electrified.
But even if we say all the people are saved and we mean all the people it's still limited by classification - people! How bout it.?
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