They were influenced by the Pentecostal "Name its Claim it" and "Seed Faith" teachings. This so-called "Word of Faith" movement is still common in many Charismatic and Pentecostal churches today.
They were influenced by the Pentecostal "Name its Claim it" and "Seed Faith" teachings. This so-called "Word of Faith" movement is still common in many Charismatic and Pentecostal churches today.
I am mostly uninformed on this movement and will do a little due diligence to get a better grip on their specifics. Thanks for pointing me there.
In the "Blue Book" there is a section devoted the focused mind. There is an analogy given using a camera. The analogy is if you get muddied results you did not focus clearly or long enough. That is clearly the same as occult practices. Many occult systems even encourage charms, amulets, talismans, and the like. Most times these items are intended to encourage better focus. As an example, if I am concentrating on more money, perhaps I make a talisman with symbolism to keep with me. When I am having trouble focusing, I can pull out the talisman as a aid to my mental focus.
When I became involved in the way international I attributed this likeness as God's Word being counterfeited by the adversary. Now I believe that the occult was intermingled into Christian teachings which are an extension of the Old Testament, a Jewish religion.
There are overlapping themes among almost all religions. Names change, rituals change, but if you look beneath the surface, the similarities are astounding. Yes, Kabbalah worked it's way into some Christian sects. Kabbalah comes from Judaism. But, I would bet Kabbalah existed even before Judaism, just under a different name and perhaps with different rituals.
If you study ancient pagan religions and you read the OT, you will see the shades and shadowing there as well. Rachel and the idol for example.
There are overlapping themes among almost all religions. Names change, rituals change, but if you look beneath the surface, the similarities are astounding. Yes, Kabbalah worked it's way into some Christian sects. Kabbalah comes from Judaism. But, I would bet Kabbalah existed even before Judaism, just under a different name and perhaps with different rituals.
If you study ancient pagan religions and you read the OT, you will see the shades and shadowing there as well. Rachel and the idol for example.
Yes! I have read many of the "neo-Babylonian" mystery religions and know exactly what you are talking about. To me at least, at some point these teachings were accepted into Christianity.
James - please refresh me. Word of Faith comes from Romans 1:17, and other places, where Paul said the "the just shall live by faith." And other places where faith comes by hearing and hearing by speaking etc.?
So, in your view is this a Pauline doctrine, where apart from Paul Judeo-Christians were zealous for the law, even from Jesus being on earth in person?
Even though doctrine is in the title I am purposely trying to steer it away from deep doctrinal discussions and link, or un-link the way international's basic beliefs to / from the occult. I really believe they have the occults own teachings in their doctrines and it is those very doctrines that are more appealing when justified by stamping God's approval on them. Thus increasing the enticement of the bait. Who doesn't want power?
So perhaps Kenyon is the more suspect and Victor Paul Wierwille just ripped him off and all of his hookie-pook. I had glossed over the Wikipedia article and think it may be an example where Wikipedia, even though considered an un-reliable source, can have very good information.
the entire concept of receiving revelations could likely be traced back as well. Except of course, in TWI, it was only true revelation if your leadership agreed with it.
Speaking in Tongues as taught be TWI for private prayer can be equated with meditation.
the entire concept of receiving revelations could likely be traced back as well. Except of course, in TWI, it was only true revelation if your leadership agreed with it.
Speaking in Tongues as taught be TWI for private prayer can be equated with meditation.
Interesting!
I hate to tell them that scriptures that talk about speaking in tongues NEVER say that you can focus that to influence situations. Speak in tongues for someone. Riiiight.
The first link is very much TWI teaching on "stayed mind."
Was it in PFAL? "Mind, come back here!" whenever your mind wandered from what you were supposed to be concentrating on. Accompanied by a hand gesture summoning the mind back and pointing firmly at one's feet.
That probably got dropped in the WAP class (which was never inflicted on me) and later foundational-type classes.
Stayed mind used to be a regular feature of SNS - just in case people decided to look beyond the walls of Zion.
EW Kenyon was also talked about, a little, when I was first in. He may have been mentioned in PFAL in an attempt to give credibility to VPW. Maybe in some later classes. (Dunno, but I never heard of him before getting involved with TWI.) Some, many, aspects of this make it into PFAL but possibly not via Kenyon so much as via the classes that VPW ripped off so as to form PFAL.
This all ties in very much with the "law of believing," upon which topic much, very much, has been written in these forums. There is also a link on the front page to an article by John Juedes, who has done a lot to debunk some TWI doctrines. John Juedes article
I am a big fan of John Juedes and many of his works. I don't always agree with every point he has but think he hits the nail on the head more so than not.
I haven't seen too many links mentioned between what the way international teaches and the occult. Having been involved with both I see it plain as day. I am sure the innies would yuk it up when reading this but I say the joke is on them.
The law of believing is sort of scriptural sounding in name only. The stayed mind, and all the concentration techniques, with the constant emphasis on concentration and then coupling that back around to the renewed mind and that being relevant to what you are "believing" for is occultism 101. All you have to do is drop the scriptural trappings.
I am a big fan of John Juedes and many of his works. I don't always agree with every point he has but think he hits the nail on the head more so than not.
I haven't seen too many links mentioned between what the way international teaches and the occult. Having been involved with both I see it plain as day. I am sure the innies would yuk it up when reading this but I say the joke is on them.
The law of believing is sort of scriptural sounding in name only. The stayed mind, and all the concentration techniques, with the constant emphasis on concentration and then coupling that back around to the renewed mind and that being relevant to what you are "believing" for is occultism 101. All you have to do is drop the scriptural trappings.
Hey, I love JJ....he helped me and so many others trying to leave, to put together and make sense of so much doctrinal heresy the Way puts out! Especially the believing article on being ''an atheistic belief" ...
As far as WHY ,TWI and occult are not written about enough is simple.
IT'S NOT BIG ENOUGH.
Seriously. They haven't made that big of an impact in the world, as the JC's or Mormons, so basically they get ignored.
The other is that many of the folks over the years get involved in TWI as very young adults....they didn't have time to study a whole bunch of occult religions.
From my perspective it's glaring and has always been so.
The curious thing is Victor Paul Wierwille supposedly read all these occult books so we wouldn't have to. Remember the junk tables? When I was around they still set them up at the Advanced Class. Sort of like a warning that this stuff was evil and off limits, but since they are on the way international's hallowed tables it's ok to tak a cursory glance. But after wards never look back nor read em again.
Am I suggesting a conspiracy on VPW's part...nah, that Pikes Peak Seminary degree didn't come with that level of brain power.
BUT - I do find it suspicious that we were warned away from the topic so sternly. Perhaps it would have raised too many questions? Perhaps educated some of those naive, young people and ministry kids?
What was the line....something like "all of the information we need to know is in the advanced class syllabus."
Back when My Brother Josh was a member at WayDale (around the turn of the century) he used to send me websites about the Way. I think he sent me John Judes site while I was stationed in Afghanistan. I felt like I had hit the jackpot when I started reading it. It made a lot of things come together in my brain about what the Way had really been about, and he provided documentation.
And yeah, it seems like there's a lot of influence from prior "movements" in VPW's teaching, But he was "open' to A LOT OF ideas. And getting kicked out of the church he had taught at had really stung him. So off he went to assemble his "doctrine" - the hermit that threw everything out and miraculously came up with something just like a lot of what he tosses in the process.
Truly Amazing !! Boy did he ever show THAT Church!!!
I do know plenty of witches/pagan who 'believe to receive'--it is the basis of spell casting for many(I won't say all because there always someone different.)As far as i can tell it works about as often for them as prayers got answered back in Christian days.
Know plenty that use oracle and tarot cards, some daily....I meditate as do others in a variety of ways...many seek out occult experiences.
Yet none of them have tried to intrude into and run my life like the man o'gawds did, to declare they have authority over other's lives and 'I wanna see your sock drawer!' demands or expect me to obey their words.
As far as I can tell, the really damaging evil gets in under the 'obey the leaders' category.
I do know plenty of witches/pagan who 'believe to receive'--it is the basis of spell casting for many(I won't say all because there always someone different.)As far as i can tell it works about as often for them as prayers got answered back in Christian days.
Know plenty that use oracle and tarot cards, some daily....I meditate as do others in a variety of ways...many seek out occult experiences.
I doubt any of them feel the need to talk down the Christians who have borrowed their practices and draw negative comparisons, denouncing them as possessed. Or have "junk" tables where there are a mess of Christian writings, warning people to only browse these books in this safe haven because their leader has already ferreted out the necessary information. No, such hypocrisy is reserved for cults like the way international to do to others.
Great points!
Something else to consider is they sell their classes that contain the same practices they denounce.
I say believe what you want to believe... I agree with what Bramble brought up - the true problem happens when obedience to a man is necessary. Then it becomes hurtful... (I don't believe in the "law" of believing anymore myself, but if anyone else wants to believe it works, good for them.)
My issue with twi and the ties it has to occult beliefs is that they tout themselves as some sort of experts in the field - as if they have an explanation for everthing out there that is supernatural. They don't. I was so impressed when I became involved that twi actually acknowledged that the supernatural did exist that I bought everything they said on the subject - that anything supernatural that happens outside of twi's defined acceptable parameters was evil. Not necessarily so... I had a massage therapist who unbeknownst to me practiced Reiki. While she was working on me she described a pain I had been having for years perfectly - and she wasn't even working on that part of my body with her hands. She kept working on me, and by the end of the massage that pain was gone. It never came back. And I didn't believe in Reiki at the time. I had actually thought in my twi brain that she must be possessed and that I would speak in tongues to counteract her weird Reiki stuff.
Guess what? I still don't have that pain. And that girl wasn't possessed. And I'm thankful I don't hurt anymore. Ironically, that injury had been caused by overexerting myself trying to do setup for a big twi event. No one offered to minister to me, and when I asked I didn't get healed.
I say believe what you want to believe... I agree with what Bramble brought up - the true problem happens when obedience to a man is necessary. Then it becomes hurtful... (I don't believe in the "law" of believing anymore myself, but if anyone else wants to believe it works, good for them.)
And to be clear this is not a thread to bash non-Judeo/Christian beliefs. Folks can believe what they want and I completely respect that. I have a problem with the hypocrisy inherent in the way international's belief system and the fact that this system was sold to us as the be all, end all. I also think it's startling to see a "christian" group such as the way international so adamantly opposed to the systems the teach in part.
Have you heard of this, their is this group that does a generation thing, they go back in people's life's, they find things like 3 generations down the road, their family member did so and so, then teach these laws to help bring them back from what was done 3 generations ago? Has the way done any of this under a different name?
Have you heard of this, their is this group that does a generation thing, they go back in people's life's, they find things like 3 generations down the road, their family member did so and so, then teach these laws to help bring them back from what was done 3 generations ago? Has the way done any of this under a different name?
I'm not aware of TWI engaging in this practice, at least not up to 1989 when I left. This would contradict their doctrine of forgetting the past. You know..."forgetting those things which are behind and focusing solely on the needs of my leader"...er...uh...something like that.
TWI typically discounted past events and in my experience even embarrassed others who were "hung up in the past".
I have heard and actually talked with people involved in the sort of ministry you're discussing and I would urge caution. It is true, in my opinion, that someone in a family can commit such a heinous act that it can SOMETIMES affect a family line for generations and CAN show up in moods, dispositions, even physical problems...SOMETIMES. SOMETIMES this comes up in counseling or even prayer ministry. SOMETIMES when this is prayed through, it can bring about healing.
What so often happens, though, is that someone will either experience healing, or see someone else experience healing in this fashion and then make a doctrine or a practice out of it. It then becomes THE WAY to pray for someone. What do you get but another cult? Perhaps well-intended, but a cult nonetheless. It can be very compelling to witness this sort of thing at first. In the end it turns out to be just another trip.
This type of thing is the genesis for so many movements. They will take one possibly genuine attribute of God and blow it way out of proportion. Many "healing ministries" do this, I believe the "Prophetic Movement" has done this, others have done this over the centuries. Most of the time it's a dog and pony show and one guy is getting the glory.
Again, just some of my own thoughts on the matter.
Not to my knowledge. However, they love to pontificate about whose fault it is for this or that happening. Usually tracing back to some "sin" that someone did that caused it.
Not to my knowledge. However, they love to pontificate about whose fault it is for this or that happening. Usually tracing back to some "sin" that someone did that caused it.
I have heard the verse taught where it says that the sins of the father will be visited upon the children and had the example of WC who left having terrible things happen to their children... I ALWAYS thought that was messed up. And I also had WC tell me that because my parents were called to be WC, that I had to have been called as well.
Not sure if that is what we are referring to or not... In any case, it was just a method of control.
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James Trimm
They were influenced by the Pentecostal "Name its Claim it" and "Seed Faith" teachings. This so-called "Word of Faith" movement is still common in many Charismatic and Pentecostal churches today.
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OldSkool
I am mostly uninformed on this movement and will do a little due diligence to get a better grip on their specifics. Thanks for pointing me there.
In the "Blue Book" there is a section devoted the focused mind. There is an analogy given using a camera. The analogy is if you get muddied results you did not focus clearly or long enough. That is clearly the same as occult practices. Many occult systems even encourage charms, amulets, talismans, and the like. Most times these items are intended to encourage better focus. As an example, if I am concentrating on more money, perhaps I make a talisman with symbolism to keep with me. When I am having trouble focusing, I can pull out the talisman as a aid to my mental focus.
When I became involved in the way international I attributed this likeness as God's Word being counterfeited by the adversary. Now I believe that the occult was intermingled into Christian teachings which are an extension of the Old Testament, a Jewish religion.
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Abigail
There are overlapping themes among almost all religions. Names change, rituals change, but if you look beneath the surface, the similarities are astounding. Yes, Kabbalah worked it's way into some Christian sects. Kabbalah comes from Judaism. But, I would bet Kabbalah existed even before Judaism, just under a different name and perhaps with different rituals.
If you study ancient pagan religions and you read the OT, you will see the shades and shadowing there as well. Rachel and the idol for example.
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OldSkool
Yes! I have read many of the "neo-Babylonian" mystery religions and know exactly what you are talking about. To me at least, at some point these teachings were accepted into Christianity.
James - please refresh me. Word of Faith comes from Romans 1:17, and other places, where Paul said the "the just shall live by faith." And other places where faith comes by hearing and hearing by speaking etc.?
So, in your view is this a Pauline doctrine, where apart from Paul Judeo-Christians were zealous for the law, even from Jesus being on earth in person?
Even though doctrine is in the title I am purposely trying to steer it away from deep doctrinal discussions and link, or un-link the way international's basic beliefs to / from the occult. I really believe they have the occults own teachings in their doctrines and it is those very doctrines that are more appealing when justified by stamping God's approval on them. Thus increasing the enticement of the bait. Who doesn't want power?
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James Trimm
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Faith
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OldSkool
So perhaps Kenyon is the more suspect and Victor Paul Wierwille just ripped him off and all of his hookie-pook. I had glossed over the Wikipedia article and think it may be an example where Wikipedia, even though considered an un-reliable source, can have very good information.
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Abigail
the entire concept of receiving revelations could likely be traced back as well. Except of course, in TWI, it was only true revelation if your leadership agreed with it.
Speaking in Tongues as taught be TWI for private prayer can be equated with meditation.
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OldSkool
Interesting!
I hate to tell them that scriptures that talk about speaking in tongues NEVER say that you can focus that to influence situations. Speak in tongues for someone. Riiiight.
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Twinky
The first link is very much TWI teaching on "stayed mind."
Was it in PFAL? "Mind, come back here!" whenever your mind wandered from what you were supposed to be concentrating on. Accompanied by a hand gesture summoning the mind back and pointing firmly at one's feet.
That probably got dropped in the WAP class (which was never inflicted on me) and later foundational-type classes.
Stayed mind used to be a regular feature of SNS - just in case people decided to look beyond the walls of Zion.
EW Kenyon was also talked about, a little, when I was first in. He may have been mentioned in PFAL in an attempt to give credibility to VPW. Maybe in some later classes. (Dunno, but I never heard of him before getting involved with TWI.) Some, many, aspects of this make it into PFAL but possibly not via Kenyon so much as via the classes that VPW ripped off so as to form PFAL.
This all ties in very much with the "law of believing," upon which topic much, very much, has been written in these forums. There is also a link on the front page to an article by John Juedes, who has done a lot to debunk some TWI doctrines. John Juedes article
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OldSkool
I am a big fan of John Juedes and many of his works. I don't always agree with every point he has but think he hits the nail on the head more so than not.
I haven't seen too many links mentioned between what the way international teaches and the occult. Having been involved with both I see it plain as day. I am sure the innies would yuk it up when reading this but I say the joke is on them.
The law of believing is sort of scriptural sounding in name only. The stayed mind, and all the concentration techniques, with the constant emphasis on concentration and then coupling that back around to the renewed mind and that being relevant to what you are "believing" for is occultism 101. All you have to do is drop the scriptural trappings.
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bliss
Hey, I love JJ....he helped me and so many others trying to leave, to put together and make sense of so much doctrinal heresy the Way puts out! Especially the believing article on being ''an atheistic belief" ...
As far as WHY ,TWI and occult are not written about enough is simple.
IT'S NOT BIG ENOUGH.
Seriously. They haven't made that big of an impact in the world, as the JC's or Mormons, so basically they get ignored.
The other is that many of the folks over the years get involved in TWI as very young adults....they didn't have time to study a whole bunch of occult religions.
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OldSkool
From my perspective it's glaring and has always been so.
The curious thing is Victor Paul Wierwille supposedly read all these occult books so we wouldn't have to. Remember the junk tables? When I was around they still set them up at the Advanced Class. Sort of like a warning that this stuff was evil and off limits, but since they are on the way international's hallowed tables it's ok to tak a cursory glance. But after wards never look back nor read em again.
Am I suggesting a conspiracy on VPW's part...nah, that Pikes Peak Seminary degree didn't come with that level of brain power.
BUT - I do find it suspicious that we were warned away from the topic so sternly. Perhaps it would have raised too many questions? Perhaps educated some of those naive, young people and ministry kids?
What was the line....something like "all of the information we need to know is in the advanced class syllabus."
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Gen-2
Back when My Brother Josh was a member at WayDale (around the turn of the century) he used to send me websites about the Way. I think he sent me John Judes site while I was stationed in Afghanistan. I felt like I had hit the jackpot when I started reading it. It made a lot of things come together in my brain about what the Way had really been about, and he provided documentation.
And yeah, it seems like there's a lot of influence from prior "movements" in VPW's teaching, But he was "open' to A LOT OF ideas. And getting kicked out of the church he had taught at had really stung him. So off he went to assemble his "doctrine" - the hermit that threw everything out and miraculously came up with something just like a lot of what he tosses in the process.
Truly Amazing !! Boy did he ever show THAT Church!!!
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Bramble
I do know plenty of witches/pagan who 'believe to receive'--it is the basis of spell casting for many(I won't say all because there always someone different.)As far as i can tell it works about as often for them as prayers got answered back in Christian days.
Know plenty that use oracle and tarot cards, some daily....I meditate as do others in a variety of ways...many seek out occult experiences.
Yet none of them have tried to intrude into and run my life like the man o'gawds did, to declare they have authority over other's lives and 'I wanna see your sock drawer!' demands or expect me to obey their words.
As far as I can tell, the really damaging evil gets in under the 'obey the leaders' category.
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OldSkool
I doubt any of them feel the need to talk down the Christians who have borrowed their practices and draw negative comparisons, denouncing them as possessed. Or have "junk" tables where there are a mess of Christian writings, warning people to only browse these books in this safe haven because their leader has already ferreted out the necessary information. No, such hypocrisy is reserved for cults like the way international to do to others.
Great points!
Something else to consider is they sell their classes that contain the same practices they denounce.
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waysider
Actually, this subject has been discussed at great length here on GSC, though I can't recall any threads from the past year and a half or so.
This stuff was very, very popular in the early twentieth century and saw a resurgence of interest in the 1950s.
HERE is one guy who brought an awareness of it to the masses.
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OldSkool
I have heard of him but never bothered to read up on him. Thanks! Resurgence in the 50s eh?...mmmm
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JavaJane
I say believe what you want to believe... I agree with what Bramble brought up - the true problem happens when obedience to a man is necessary. Then it becomes hurtful... (I don't believe in the "law" of believing anymore myself, but if anyone else wants to believe it works, good for them.)
My issue with twi and the ties it has to occult beliefs is that they tout themselves as some sort of experts in the field - as if they have an explanation for everthing out there that is supernatural. They don't. I was so impressed when I became involved that twi actually acknowledged that the supernatural did exist that I bought everything they said on the subject - that anything supernatural that happens outside of twi's defined acceptable parameters was evil. Not necessarily so... I had a massage therapist who unbeknownst to me practiced Reiki. While she was working on me she described a pain I had been having for years perfectly - and she wasn't even working on that part of my body with her hands. She kept working on me, and by the end of the massage that pain was gone. It never came back. And I didn't believe in Reiki at the time. I had actually thought in my twi brain that she must be possessed and that I would speak in tongues to counteract her weird Reiki stuff.
Guess what? I still don't have that pain. And that girl wasn't possessed. And I'm thankful I don't hurt anymore. Ironically, that injury had been caused by overexerting myself trying to do setup for a big twi event. No one offered to minister to me, and when I asked I didn't get healed.
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OldSkool
And to be clear this is not a thread to bash non-Judeo/Christian beliefs. Folks can believe what they want and I completely respect that. I have a problem with the hypocrisy inherent in the way international's belief system and the fact that this system was sold to us as the be all, end all. I also think it's startling to see a "christian" group such as the way international so adamantly opposed to the systems the teach in part.
And great to hear your back is healed!
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OldSkool
Topic continues here:
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teachmevp
Have you heard of this, their is this group that does a generation thing, they go back in people's life's, they find things like 3 generations down the road, their family member did so and so, then teach these laws to help bring them back from what was done 3 generations ago? Has the way done any of this under a different name?
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Broken Arrow
I'm not aware of TWI engaging in this practice, at least not up to 1989 when I left. This would contradict their doctrine of forgetting the past. You know..."forgetting those things which are behind and focusing solely on the needs of my leader"...er...uh...something like that.
TWI typically discounted past events and in my experience even embarrassed others who were "hung up in the past".
I have heard and actually talked with people involved in the sort of ministry you're discussing and I would urge caution. It is true, in my opinion, that someone in a family can commit such a heinous act that it can SOMETIMES affect a family line for generations and CAN show up in moods, dispositions, even physical problems...SOMETIMES. SOMETIMES this comes up in counseling or even prayer ministry. SOMETIMES when this is prayed through, it can bring about healing.
What so often happens, though, is that someone will either experience healing, or see someone else experience healing in this fashion and then make a doctrine or a practice out of it. It then becomes THE WAY to pray for someone. What do you get but another cult? Perhaps well-intended, but a cult nonetheless. It can be very compelling to witness this sort of thing at first. In the end it turns out to be just another trip.
This type of thing is the genesis for so many movements. They will take one possibly genuine attribute of God and blow it way out of proportion. Many "healing ministries" do this, I believe the "Prophetic Movement" has done this, others have done this over the centuries. Most of the time it's a dog and pony show and one guy is getting the glory.
Again, just some of my own thoughts on the matter.
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OldSkool
Not to my knowledge. However, they love to pontificate about whose fault it is for this or that happening. Usually tracing back to some "sin" that someone did that caused it.
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JavaJane
I have heard the verse taught where it says that the sins of the father will be visited upon the children and had the example of WC who left having terrible things happen to their children... I ALWAYS thought that was messed up. And I also had WC tell me that because my parents were called to be WC, that I had to have been called as well.
Not sure if that is what we are referring to or not... In any case, it was just a method of control.
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