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Bart D. Ehrman's NT Class


Pax
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I'm offering a DVD course (from Great Courses Inc) for a group of about 15 friends, "The New Testament" by Professor Bart Ehrman of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. I've heard lectures 1 -3 and already learned a great deal (after, like 40 years of Bible study). I'd like to share some of it here and hear reactions. Caveat Lector: Ehrman isn't trying to create believers or unbelievers... he's expounding scripture from an historical point of view.

Greek/Roman Context of the NT (Lecture 2)

- Details of belief or doctrine were not very important to ancient peoples. Of much more consequence was the quality of their practice of service to the gods (sacrifices etc.).

- Monotheism was generally considered a ridiculous notion.

- The NT was written in Greek because of Alexander the Great's influence.

- 'cult' is short for cultus deorum "care of the gods"

- The existence of divine men* was widely recognized throughout Greco-Roman world. Half gods/ half humans were a generally accepted reality.

*Eg: "Apollonius of Tyana" ca. 15?–ca. 100? CE (quoting from lecture notes) was miraculously born, healed the sick, raised the dead, delivered divine teachings and ascended to live among the gods forever.

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(snip)

- The existence of divine men* was widely recognized throughout Greco-Roman world. Half gods/ half humans were a generally accepted reality.

*Eg: "Apollonius of Tyana" ca. 15?–ca. 100? CE (quoting from lecture notes) was miraculously born, healed the sick, raised the dead, delivered divine teachings and ascended to live among the gods forever.

Shouldn't this part pretty much be common knowledge?

I kept running into this all through high school.

Hercules was the demi-god representing the Spartan ideals,

Theseus ("his cousin) was the tip-top mortal who represented the Athenian ideals.

The Olympian gods supposedly had all sorts of children, both gods and mortals,

plus monsters and a few demi-gods.

Phaeton's fate was a cautionary tale of being careful what you ask for, and

not to overreach your grasp, etc.

Anybody who thumbed through Edith Hamilton's "Mythology" should know this.

A good websearch would show the same.

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which half?

*snickers*

Actually, you're right- some of them were monsters with some human parts,

and some animal parts.

Most of the time, however, it was more, you know, "a little leaven leavens the whole lump."

They were homogenized beings.

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I'm sick of taking bible classes. If the teacher is holding a banjo/ guitar/ fiddle/ or mandolin, I'll go.

If they're holding a bible with a donation plate in front of them, or "teachings for sale",

you can count me out. I've enough tapes here to fill up the local landfill. I don't need more.

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So, if biblical times were full of demigods, half-human/half-divine

who were of miraculous births

who walked on water and raised the dead

who rose from the dead

and ascended to Mt. Olympus...

could it be? That these aspects of the four gospels are less than historical?

If we admit that the four gospels contain significant, legendary, non-historical portions

are we "of all men most miserable"?

I trow not...

we become of all people most intellectually honest.

And many true riches of Christianity are allowed to come into focus.

Good religion doesn't insist that less-than-rational, non-historical stuff

be taken literally.

The world sees such a false witness as signs of soft-headedness.

and who can blame them?

Can't one's witness be to the coherent, rational message of the gospels?

While still loving the legendary portions

and interpreting them as the spirit that authored them probably did

(religiously and non-historically)?

The gospels that I read (legendary miracles included) preach: self-sacrificial love, anti-materialism, tolerance, compassion, inclusiveness, speaking-truth-to-power, and many, many,many other ...

great messages for the living of these days,

for

the

living

of

these

days.

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So, if biblical times were full of demigods, half-human/half-divine

who were of miraculous births

who walked on water and raised the dead

who rose from the dead

and ascended to Mt. Olympus...

could it be? That these aspects of the four gospels are less than historical?

It COULD be. It could ALSO be that these aspect of the Synoptic Gospels are historically

accurate. Just because other people lie about their golf game doesn't mean YOU lie about

YOUR golf game.

Then it goes to evidence. The people who wrote these things, reported these things

were willing to put the remainder of their lives in jeopardy, and many of the early

disciples were killed in horrific executions. They went to slow, painful deaths rather

than say "I lied." Personally, I suspect they had supremely strong convictions that

what they reported was all correct- for there is little that a man would sacrifice his

life for- except the salvation OF that life.

If we admit that the four gospels contain significant, legendary, non-historical portions

are we "of all men most miserable"?

I trow not...

we become of all people most intellectually honest.

How did you get from "is it POSSIBLE that wasn't true?"

to "ADMIT it was NOT true?" with no intermediary steps?

Looks like a leap of non-faith.

It's not intellectually honest.

And many true riches of Christianity are allowed to come into focus.

Good religion doesn't insist that less-than-rational, non-historical stuff

be taken literally.

The world sees such a false witness as signs of soft-headedness.

and who can blame them?

A good walk of faith doesn't insist that one call truth a lie, nor insist

that one call lies the truth.

Those who would, they're not intellectually honest,

and poor witnesses to their faith.

Who would want to join them?

And you STILL made another leap. You've decided unilaterally to disbelieve

parts of the Bible, and call them fables.

Then you've decided unilaterally that to skip a process of inquiry to get to that

conclusion (working it out to see if the evidence really, really supports your

leap of non-faith) is "intellectually honest"-when it's the opposite.

Then you decided that those who disagree with you are "soft-headed.

What's next- a non-miraculous snowstorm and a new class you're teaching for pay?

Can't one's witness be to the coherent, rational message of the gospels?

While still loving the legendary portions

and interpreting them as the spirit that authored them probably did

(religiously and non-historically)?

Depends on if there actually ARE 'legendary portions' like you decided all by yourself.

Looks like you've not only declared some Scripture is "legendary" (fiction, lies, myths,

cunningly-devised fables), and that your dissenters are "soft-headed",

but you even worked out exactly how God wants you to read them.

You're a regular one-stop-shop for another(heteros) gospel, aren't you?

The gospels that I read (legendary miracles included) preach: self-sacrificial love, anti-materialism, tolerance, compassion, inclusiveness, speaking-truth-to-power, and many, many,many other ...

great messages for the living of these days,

for

the

living

of

these

days.

If it was all about powerful messages of compassion, tolerance, and so on,

then why adulterate it with cunningly-devised fables?

Hey, if your Christian walk is so scrawny that you've never seen a divine healing,

never gotten divine revelation, never seen a miracle,

that's your business. Those of us who HAVE seen some are a bit harder to convince

that God's people thousands of years ago never saw them.

"Do not pass Go. Do not collect 10% of my income."

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If you define a miracle as a verified breaking of the laws of physics

I've only ever seen one.

Here it is:

How easy it would be to prove to the world that speaking in tongues is a genuine miracle

- if it was.

Just identify one of the "tongues of men" being spoken sufficiently well...

and then verify that

the manifester has had no earthly acquaintance with said language.

Non?

Until then,

Geo. Aar's theory regarding speaking in tongues seems to obey Occam's Razor.

Speech can be disassociated from thought content as any child shows in "jibberish."

I still hold that speaking in tongues can unmiraculously be a legitimate religious practice.

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Why is it that - of all the endless "holy" writings of the ancient world - the BIBLE should be accepted in toto while all the others can (and of rights I guess SHOULD be)totally disregarded?

Krishna is said to have defeated an evil enemy by striking him with a feather, Yogis are said to be able to levitate at will by focusing their minds, the Daruma - in a show of dedication and humility - clipped off his eyelids so he wouldn't go to sleep while praying - and eventually his legs simply melted away from lack of use, Mithra is said to have been born out of a rock and slayed a bull single-handedly. And the list goes on. A myriad of miraculous things performed by gods and god/men.

But of course, good Christians aren't swayed by such tripe. They only believe the "REAL" miracles.

Feh...

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(snip)

Krishna is said to have defeated an evil enemy by striking him with a feather, Yogis are said to be able to levitate at will by focusing their minds, the Daruma - in a show of dedication and humility - clipped off his eyelids so he wouldn't go to sleep while praying - and eventually his legs simply melted away from lack of use, Mithra is said to have been born out of a rock and slayed a bull single-handedly. And the list goes on. A myriad of miraculous things performed by gods and god/men.

(snip)

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and that's true regardless of the source.

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Ah, no, Pax, you don't get to casually redefine what I said so that it matches your theology.

You dismissed all sorts of verses of Scripture on the grounds that they lay out miraculous

events.

I countered that those who've seen miraculous events NOW are less likely to dismiss the

possible claims of miraculous events THEN. What kind did I say?

" Hey, if your Christian walk is so scrawny that you've never seen a divine healing,

never gotten divine revelation, never seen a miracle,

that's your business. Those of us who HAVE seen some are a bit harder to convince

that God's people thousands of years ago never saw them."

So I said

Divine healing

Divine revelation

a miracle

To those who actually want to see what I'm saying, it's not difficult.

However, first you downgraded miraculous accounts in Scripture to

cunningly-devised fables,

then you downgraded MODERN miraculous events I said- including divine healing and revelation-

to

an athlete performing an excellent jump

speaking in tongues/glossalalia, which is largely debated

Looks like your internal filter is set to "scrawny".

First, the Bible accounts are fiction, then the modern miracles don't even exist

beyond "people excelling at physical stunts."

Yeesh, if you rewrite me so radically in one paragraph,

how reliable is your understanding of pages of Scripture?

Edited by WordWolf
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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and that's true regardless of the source.

Agreed (wholeheartedly). So what then is the "extraordinary" proof of 1. Noah's Ark and the litany of remarkable tales outside of the known laws of physics of the Old Testament 2. The virgin birth of Jesus 3. Walking on water 4. Raising the dead 5. Healing the sick, lame, blind, etc. with a mere touch of a hand (or of a garment) 6. Communication with holy entities of all sorts - God Himself, Jesus (His somewhat ill-defined alter ego?), and angels

Isn't religious belief simply a choice rather than any sort of intellectual exercise? Despite protestations to the contrary, it strikes me that "spirituality" is all about emotions and requires little or no reason (in fact, I think reason often gets in the way of traditional religious thought).

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George,

I'll tell you this much and then I'll step aside. You can choose to disbelieve me,

discard what I say, whatever, but I'm neither inviting a discussion on this nor

accepting an invitation to the same.

When I was a teenager, I had dismissed the Bible categorically as a source of

accurate information, or even relevant information. To even get me to "open the door"

on discussion took a lot more than simply sunny personalities, "manifestations"

and talking a good talk. vpw himself would not have succeeded, and wouldn't have even

held my attention. I saw sufficient proof to warrant paying attention, and have

seen sufficient proof since then to form consistent beliefs and conclusions,

and they've remained intact down the decades.

If you haven't, then it's small wonder you currently have the Bible dismissed categorically

as a source of accurate or relevant information. Extraordinary claims have been made,

and if you haven't seen extraordinary proof, then there's little logical reason to

respect the Bible, let alone believe it.

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