The concept is certainly not unique to The Way or any other singular religion. I think it's a built-in sort of defense mechanism that helps your mind make sense of things and events that, otherwise, make no sense. Let's say, for example, that your boss is being a total butt head for no apparent reason. Your mind finds some degree of comfort in the idea that "what goes 'round comes 'round". Or, maybe you have a family member that gives of their self tirelessly but is unappreciated. Perhaps this concept helps them deal with the inequity. I think there must be a part of the human psyche that actually wants Karma to be real. Maybe that's why it has found its way into so many belief systems.
edit: I suppose you could even extend the idea to encompass rewards and punishments in the after-life.
One quirky little derivation that may or may not have been unique to The Way was the idea that errant born-again believers would not be punished in the after-life but would, rather, receive less rewards when they approached the bema. This idea provided a pretty handy tool for rationalizing all sorts of deviant behavior in The Way.
11 I returned , and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding , nor yet favour to men of skill ; but time and chance happeneth to them all. 12 For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.
Stuff happens, and it's not always due to any fault of the "recipient" - not their bad believing, their stupid action, their abuse of their bodies... Of course, it all might be as a result of one's own actions, deliberate or otherwise.
2 Tim 2:26 ... And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Like fishes are taken in a net, or birds in a snare - sometimes people fall into a trap laid by God's arch enemy.
Plenty of stuff about that in Proverbs, and in Ecclesiastes, a book that wasn't high ohn TWI's reading list.
Dunno if that's karma, or acknowledging a spiritual battle, or just acknowledging life as we all live it.
Stuff happens, and it's not always due to any fault of the "recipient" - not their bad believing, their stupid action, their abuse of their bodies... Of course, it all might be as a result of one's own actions, deliberate or otherwise.
2 Tim 2:26 ... And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Like fishes are taken in a net, or birds in a snare - sometimes people fall into a trap laid by God's arch enemy.
Plenty of stuff about that in Proverbs, and in Ecclesiastes, a book that wasn't high ohn TWI's reading list.
Dunno if that's karma, or acknowledging a spiritual battle, or just acknowledging life as we all live it.
Well said, I think. Sometimes people have bad things happen because of their own actions or bad decisions. Sometimes it's just that we live in "evil times" like Solomon said in Eccl. I don't think we ever really know what the case is when it comes to someone else. Now, in TWI, we wanted to believe we lived in a totally controllable world. So we had the believing=receiving thing going on. If something bad happened to someone in our ranks, we had to blame them. Why? Because we didn't want to face the fact that something bad could broadside us from out of nowhere.
The comfort isn't in having the illusion of control, it's in knowing that no matter what heppens, we'll have what we need to deal with it...even if it's death itself.
The concept is certainly not unique to The Way or any other singular religion. I think it's a built-in sort of defense mechanism that helps your mind make sense of things and events that, otherwise, make no sense. Let's say, for example, that your boss is being a total butt head for no apparent reason. Your mind finds some degree of comfort in the idea that "what goes 'round comes 'round". Or, maybe you have a family member that gives of their self tirelessly but is unappreciated. Perhaps this concept helps them deal with the inequity. I think there must be a part of the human psyche that actually wants Karma to be real. Maybe that's why it has found its way into so many belief systems.
edit: I suppose you could even extend the idea to encompass rewards and punishments in the after-life.
I agree. Let's manufacture a life that is as controllable as the volume button on a radio. A positive thought here, a principle applied there, and good things will happen to us all the time. Now I don't have to have any fear because I know the principles and I'm in charge. Thus I have created my own dreamworld of constant happiness. At 17 I believed this was all possible. I don't have to tell you or anyone else here, but that world comes crashing down in the face of a real crisis like a life-threatening illness, or a spouse that wants a divorce, or a child that is very sick. It's times such as these where one decides to cling on to that dreamworld with a death grip, or let go and acknowledge our weakness and ask for help. Help from others, and in my worldview, God.
If that were true, then the nice guys would all be doing well, and the a**holes wouldn't be. Bad guys wouldn't go scott free, and the good people would all have great lives.
Actually, we would all be milk toast because we all exhude both good and evil.
I'm not much of a believer in karma in its form of good stuff happens to good people and bad stuff happens to bad people or that you can stockpile some good karma to offset the bad ("My Name is Earl" anyone?)
But I do see how your decisions and actions have a cumulative affect through your life, effecting just about everything.
Funny, I've been delving into some Buddhist beliefs lately out of curiosity... The whole idea of Karma is also caught up with the idea of reincarnation... so if something bad happens to you it is not necessarily the fruit of something you did in this lifetime, but something that may have happened in a previous life. The purpose of these bad things happening from a Buddhist standpoint would be the learning we can gain from them. By dealing with these obstacles and learning from them we can gain a greater understanding which eventually leads to "enlightenment."
Now, I am not a Buddist by any standard... But their belief of Karma isn't the exact same thing as TWI's believing = receiving. It's not always instantaneous. And the bad things that happen are looked upon as a learning experience to better ourselves instead of as a way to tell if we did the right thing or the wrong thing.
I find the whole thing completely fascinating.
**hit edit, and then decided not to add anything after all...
One other thought is that someone who does adhere to the Buddhist belief system would not try to condemn someone else for the bad things that happen to them, because in their viewpoint it is wrong to cause suffering for someone else. They also would understand that the "bad karma" could come from something in a previous incarnation of the individual, which takes the condemnation out of the situation... Did that make sense?
Yes it does. You're also correct in saying TWI "Believing=Receiving" doctrine doesn't match exactly with Buddhist doctrine.
While I realize that a Buddhist living their faith would not condemn someone who was suffering, my experience in TWI, and in American culture for that matter, tells me there is often a disparity between belief and practice. That while one may believe a person is being taught a divine lesson for enlightenment purposes, in reality there would be judgement that there was some secret wrongdoing or a bad decision made in a previous life. In other words, the person deserves their calamity. I could be totally wrong in my assessment never having been Buddhist or having spent any time with such a group.
I have a lot of curiosity about Buddhism myself. That faith seems to have some very effective meditation practices. Thank you for your post.
I have been listening to some podcasts from a guy named Gil Fronsdahl - you can find them by going to the iTunes store and searching under audiodharma. Very interesting... I am really interested in the attitude of living at peace within yourself. The other thing I like is that Buddhism is more of a philosophy than a religion, and can be practiced in accord with whatever ideas you hold about God. The meditation part has proved to be helpful for me as well.
Great topic. And I see what you are saying. All religions and beliefs can easily be usd against others if a person does not act out of love.
I have been listening to some podcasts from a guy named Gil Fronsdahl - you can find them by going to the iTunes store and searching under audiodharma. Very interesting... I am really interested in the attitude of living at peace within yourself. The other thing I like is that Buddhism is more of a philosophy than a religion, and can be practiced in accord with whatever ideas you hold about God. The meditation part has proved to be helpful for me as well.
Great topic. And I see what you are saying. All religions and beliefs can easily be usd against others if a person does not act out of love.
Ummmm...the iTunes store? Is that on the Internet somewhere? I'm an old guy. Can I download it to my 8-track tape player?
I just finished listening to the podcast called "Social Equanimity" from 08/01/2010... talks toward the end about exactly what this thread addresses... interesting stuff!
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Human without the bean
By definition Karma is What comes around goes around :excl:
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waysider
The concept is certainly not unique to The Way or any other singular religion. I think it's a built-in sort of defense mechanism that helps your mind make sense of things and events that, otherwise, make no sense. Let's say, for example, that your boss is being a total butt head for no apparent reason. Your mind finds some degree of comfort in the idea that "what goes 'round comes 'round". Or, maybe you have a family member that gives of their self tirelessly but is unappreciated. Perhaps this concept helps them deal with the inequity. I think there must be a part of the human psyche that actually wants Karma to be real. Maybe that's why it has found its way into so many belief systems.
edit: I suppose you could even extend the idea to encompass rewards and punishments in the after-life.
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waysider
One quirky little derivation that may or may not have been unique to The Way was the idea that errant born-again believers would not be punished in the after-life but would, rather, receive less rewards when they approached the bema. This idea provided a pretty handy tool for rationalizing all sorts of deviant behavior in The Way.
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ChasUFarley
Saw a great bumpersticker a while back:
Whoops! My Karma hit your Dogma.
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waysider
I had a Karma Ghia once but it just kept going around the block and back again.
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Twinky
This is the Biblical version of "sh1t happens":
Stuff happens, and it's not always due to any fault of the "recipient" - not their bad believing, their stupid action, their abuse of their bodies... Of course, it all might be as a result of one's own actions, deliberate or otherwise.
2 Tim 2:26 ... And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Like fishes are taken in a net, or birds in a snare - sometimes people fall into a trap laid by God's arch enemy.
Plenty of stuff about that in Proverbs, and in Ecclesiastes, a book that wasn't high ohn TWI's reading list.
Dunno if that's karma, or acknowledging a spiritual battle, or just acknowledging life as we all live it.
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Broken Arrow
Thanks Bean, I knew Lennon would eventually get involved! :)
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dmiller
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Broken Arrow
Well said, I think. Sometimes people have bad things happen because of their own actions or bad decisions. Sometimes it's just that we live in "evil times" like Solomon said in Eccl. I don't think we ever really know what the case is when it comes to someone else. Now, in TWI, we wanted to believe we lived in a totally controllable world. So we had the believing=receiving thing going on. If something bad happened to someone in our ranks, we had to blame them. Why? Because we didn't want to face the fact that something bad could broadside us from out of nowhere.
The comfort isn't in having the illusion of control, it's in knowing that no matter what heppens, we'll have what we need to deal with it...even if it's death itself.
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Broken Arrow
I agree. Let's manufacture a life that is as controllable as the volume button on a radio. A positive thought here, a principle applied there, and good things will happen to us all the time. Now I don't have to have any fear because I know the principles and I'm in charge. Thus I have created my own dreamworld of constant happiness. At 17 I believed this was all possible. I don't have to tell you or anyone else here, but that world comes crashing down in the face of a real crisis like a life-threatening illness, or a spouse that wants a divorce, or a child that is very sick. It's times such as these where one decides to cling on to that dreamworld with a death grip, or let go and acknowledge our weakness and ask for help. Help from others, and in my worldview, God.
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Oakspear
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Sudo
Ehhh... what goes around comes around.
sudo
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Broken Arrow
If that were true, then the nice guys would all be doing well, and the a**holes wouldn't be. Bad guys wouldn't go scott free, and the good people would all have great lives.
Actually, we would all be milk toast because we all exhude both good and evil.
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Oakspear
I'm not much of a believer in karma in its form of good stuff happens to good people and bad stuff happens to bad people or that you can stockpile some good karma to offset the bad ("My Name is Earl" anyone?)
But I do see how your decisions and actions have a cumulative affect through your life, effecting just about everything.
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JavaJane
Funny, I've been delving into some Buddhist beliefs lately out of curiosity... The whole idea of Karma is also caught up with the idea of reincarnation... so if something bad happens to you it is not necessarily the fruit of something you did in this lifetime, but something that may have happened in a previous life. The purpose of these bad things happening from a Buddhist standpoint would be the learning we can gain from them. By dealing with these obstacles and learning from them we can gain a greater understanding which eventually leads to "enlightenment."
Now, I am not a Buddist by any standard... But their belief of Karma isn't the exact same thing as TWI's believing = receiving. It's not always instantaneous. And the bad things that happen are looked upon as a learning experience to better ourselves instead of as a way to tell if we did the right thing or the wrong thing.
I find the whole thing completely fascinating.
**hit edit, and then decided not to add anything after all...
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JavaJane
One other thought is that someone who does adhere to the Buddhist belief system would not try to condemn someone else for the bad things that happen to them, because in their viewpoint it is wrong to cause suffering for someone else. They also would understand that the "bad karma" could come from something in a previous incarnation of the individual, which takes the condemnation out of the situation... Did that make sense?
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Broken Arrow
Yes it does. You're also correct in saying TWI "Believing=Receiving" doctrine doesn't match exactly with Buddhist doctrine.
While I realize that a Buddhist living their faith would not condemn someone who was suffering, my experience in TWI, and in American culture for that matter, tells me there is often a disparity between belief and practice. That while one may believe a person is being taught a divine lesson for enlightenment purposes, in reality there would be judgement that there was some secret wrongdoing or a bad decision made in a previous life. In other words, the person deserves their calamity. I could be totally wrong in my assessment never having been Buddhist or having spent any time with such a group.
I have a lot of curiosity about Buddhism myself. That faith seems to have some very effective meditation practices. Thank you for your post.
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JavaJane
I have been listening to some podcasts from a guy named Gil Fronsdahl - you can find them by going to the iTunes store and searching under audiodharma. Very interesting... I am really interested in the attitude of living at peace within yourself. The other thing I like is that Buddhism is more of a philosophy than a religion, and can be practiced in accord with whatever ideas you hold about God. The meditation part has proved to be helpful for me as well.
Great topic. And I see what you are saying. All religions and beliefs can easily be usd against others if a person does not act out of love.
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Broken Arrow
Ummmm...the iTunes store? Is that on the Internet somewhere? I'm an old guy. Can I download it to my 8-track tape player?
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JavaJane
http://www.audiodharma.org/teacher/1/
just go that site, old man... Not sure if it's an active link since I posted it from the iPhone... Guess I'll see when I hit post!
Cool, that worked... This isn't the iTunes store, just the audiodharma website.
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Broken Arrow
Thanks! Wow, that can keep you busy for awhile! I'll check it out.
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JavaJane
I just finished listening to the podcast called "Social Equanimity" from 08/01/2010... talks toward the end about exactly what this thread addresses... interesting stuff!
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