thanks everyone for the contributions. all of them. so many points...so many directions to go with this topic.
yeah...Karen Armstrong's is a much needed voice in the world. and the Charter for Compassion...yeah, much can be said about that.
as ive written about here often, i find that one of the most important and revealing (and challenging to bring up) ways to view the problems and gifts of religion, especially the Abrahamic, is through a "developmental" lense.
once we can at least acknowledge the developing nature of human worldviews, we may be able to begin to understand why we are interpreting the same information so many conflicting ways.
we may even begin to get a clearer idea where our own worldview is trying to go, and what is stopping us from going there, which is as important, if not more, than what anyone else is doing.
yet, odd as it may seem, one of the primary obstacles to a more developmental worldview often comes from the compassionate worldview...as if pointing out patterns of development is somehow unloving, or untrue.
yet, rejecting development in the name of compassion is a contradiction and a hypocrisy.
yet, like the Charter for Compassion attempts to do, development can begin to be addressed without abandoning compassion at all. although that does not guarantee the response/reaction will be loving or kind.
i would even go as far as to say that a very practical common ground that all 3 have shared in their better histories is a recognition of the very important need for development...and many of the rites of passage and other rituals and practices of the abrahamic religions actually served to stimulate development of the moral and cognitive imaginations from stage to stage to stage...as well as the development of greater degrees of compassion, sanity, and wisdom.
perhaps it can be said that Jesus was somehow the most developed of history, and happened to be a jewish man.
and everyone who experienced him began interpreting and acting from wherever they were in their development at the time.
just as we have been doing since the dawn of time.
this generates streams of artifacts and activity that flow into a history already deep beyond deep with artifacts flowing from a world of people interpreting and acting from wherever they are.
abraham was interpreting melchizadek.
melchizadek was interpreting abraham.
jesus was interpreting them both,
john the baptist was interpreting jesus.
every prophet, saint, rabbi, hero and villain interprets the world and the things they've read or heard about it from wherever they are.
and mohammed was interpreting them all from where he was, which seems more like David, in general.
and the bahai are interpreting all that.
yada yada yada
and we are now interpreting some aspect of that vast ocean of artifacts from where we are.
we have interpreted some of the same aspects of this vast ocean of artifacts from different places at different points in our life.
the worldview of everyone posting or reading this has already come a long way baby.
yet, are we ever really done?
no one is better than anyone else in any sort of absolute or ultimate sense...yet we are still full of qualities.
How can life come by death it is impossibilities but it is the life kind otherwise the rules for fleshly do come into play when we have spiritual life? That what the word of God claims otherwise Jesus Christ made what is impossibilities possibilities? Otherwise in God kind all things are possibilities.
Otherwise love is impossibilities that divide fleshly men from spiritual men because Atheist means nothing nor Christian nor any made possibilities. We are past possibilities life by the death of Jesus Christ because we believe the impossibilities of life by death. The possibilities of life by death, thank you; with love and a holy kiss Roy.
What would Jesus say, do, think? about a lot of things. Can't tell you.
"Jesus" has really become an idealized icon, a man for all seasons, a god for all times, healer, lover, commander-in-chief, warrior, peace bunny. You name it He's probably got a t-shirt with His name on it somewhere.
And there's no lack of spokepersons for Jesus who will tell us exactly what He would do, think, say, endorse or condemn. He has an army of dudes and dudettes who are "like that" with him, on a first name basis and apparently have his personal cell phone number if needed.
Apparently the Divine Marketing Strategy is "Total Saturation - All Demographics". If we can sell a coffee cup with His mug on it, we're in baby! Next stop - mutli-line that household! Get the skateboard deal, it's got big markup! and they'll see His Name everytime they scoop! Yeah!
I mean no disrespect to Jesus, but I have no respect for the hordes who trade on His name and reputation.
I agree with the earlier sentiment that those of faith should spend their time investing in their own faith and development to their own betterment. To a great degree that's what most people do. And faced with a conflict I think the average person would choose to get along li'l doggie and keep to their own business, if allowed. Christians witness and share the Good News with a basic understanding that not everyone will believe, or is "called" or will respond. Any thoughtful Christian will understand that while the moment is always urgent, the times are in God's hands and it's not to the individual to pass final judgment in these days. There's always reason to hope and plan for a better day tomorrow, for everyone.
An aspect to our modern society that works against that is the never ending onslaught of information that's pushed in our faces everyday. It isn't enough to hear something once, we have to hear it over and over and over, a 100 different ways. People get to where they won't leave each other alone or allow someone to go their own way if they so choose. We all have to get our point across because it's important that you understand. And we have no end of ways to do that.
We preach "freedom" and ring it loud in everyone else's faces but when it comes to giving our neighbor a little peace let alone "love" we just won't do it. Christians are no different than those of Jesus's day - they want to ferret out who to love and when and how to act good to whom and who they don't have to or need to and who gets their best and who gets their not-so-best and who gets a panty load of grief because that's surely what "Jesus would do".
B-----t.
I can't' live like that. I've yet to meet the person who doesn't deserve a decent night's sleep and a half way comfortable cot to put their stuff under.
If we're "saved", we have reason to celebrate and a party to invite others to. If they don't want to come what're we supposed to do? Shoot 'em? That's definitely bad hosting.
Maybe a good start to compassionate development would be to learn to leave each other alone sometimes and stop bugging the crap out of each other.
To add - this approach, known as "Rant 234", will probably not have the legs to go far, I know that. But the steady tapping of my keyboard keys is so soothing, I have to keep it up, yet a little while, bear with me.
What it amounts to in practice is "Nothin'". Doesn't sound like much I know.
"What'd you do today to help your neighbor see the Light, brother?"
"Nothin'".
"Did you knock on everyone's door today on your list and give them the 5 minute "Jesus Loves All Sinners Even You" message?"
"No".
"How many tickets to the Xtreme RawkRGrrrls For Gawd concert did you sell so far???"
"None".
See, it's just not going to move a lot of units so yeah. Or no.
If we're "saved", we have reason to celebrate and a party to invite others to....
Apparently Muslims have quite a party planned as well.....or so Ive heard.... :)
.....
really Im not sure if these "parties" were part of the original idea of these religions or if they are later constructs added somewhere along the line as a motivator during tough times or to keep people disciplined..(or something)...I really dont know----but To me and my very limited grasp of them all they all seem to deal much more in activities in the 'here and now' than they do with the eventual eternal place-
---but if it is true, why can't you only not shoot them for not coming to yours, but also wish them a good time at theirs?
What it amounts to in practice is "Nothin'". Doesn't sound like much I know.
"What'd you do today to help your neighbor see the Light, brother?"
"Nothin'".
"Did you knock on everyone's door today on your list and give them the 5 minute "Jesus Loves All Sinners Even You" message?"
"No".
"How many tickets to the Xtreme RawkRGrrrls For Gawd concert did you sell so far???"
"None".
See, it's just not going to move a lot of units so yeah. Or no.
Sound very Zen, the value of nothingness cannot be understated :P
many religions and forms of spirituality strive for that as a realization
"Jesus emptied himself"....
'Moving Units', witnessing by numbers, signing people up for the class, how many people in your church (mosque), (synagogue)? seems such a capitalist, western, profit oriented view of religion. It becomes measurable,,and then like business--competitive--then cuthroat---then eventually wars.
Nothing sounds like much more to me...Its also a common point of all 3
Party's an FOS, mstar1. For most humans on this planet life's a balance of sucksbad and hurtsmore. 2 hots and a day without diahrrea is a party for many.
Life is a celebration however, and while I can't have everyone over at once, that's my take. If your mileage varies, write me at momoneyformeMeansmoloveforYou@socksarama.com and I'll get you some Love Juice Tonic that will make your day.
I believe the application of one's faith will vary to the times and produce major religious cultural shifts as short as generation to generation. As a result, "religion" has a place, the holding spot for the traditions we develop. Hating "religion" is like hating our own human natures. Yes yes - religion is everything "man adds to the truth", blah blah blah. It's also the day to day activities that we, as mighty sons of the Most High God, embrace and repeat successfully. In fact I'd suggest that it's our hardazzed tendency to label "everyone ELSE'S" religion as THE BAD religion and always allow our own as the GOOD KIND because of course, we'd never do anything wrong deliberately, that would be bad - that makes getting along in any meaningful way for more than a few months at a time difficult.
In fact everyone no matter how truth-laden and encrusted with Transcendence that they are, has things they bring to "their" faith as the individual participants, the "containers", the holy bowls that hold the righteous Cheerios. (note to self - copyright that name! It's mine!!! mine!!! The Righteous Cheerios !!!)
(I've never gotten much traction out of the "empty bowl, the space not the stuff" that's become so attractive in Western Buddhism. But the idea of an ultimate nirvanic nothingness might have a certain allure for some, I get that).
But less is more mstar and I agree, seriously. Like the old old old saying goes, we might bo better to try "doing it in our daily lives" - daily always noted for those who might be living their lives in a non-daily way. Difficult but that's why we need to make consideration for those who have gone that less travelled road).
Put another way - if I never wore a "Jesus" T-shirt or a Pneuma B Ball hat, or sang "Father Along" at the top of my lungs - would people know I was a Christian? And is that the term they'd use to describe the incredibly wonderful, enlightening, power-filled and love struck way that I live, as I exemplify all of the good and none of the bad of my faith as I always do most certainly, in my daily life?
Many medieval Muslim thinkers pursued humanistic, rational and scientific discourses in their search for knowledge, meaning and values. A wide range of Islamic writings on love, poetry, history and philosophical theology show that medieval Islamic thought was open to the humanistic ideas of individualism, occasional secularism, skepticism and liberalism.[9][10]
Religious freedom, though society was still controlled under Islamic values, helped create cross-cultural networks by attracting Muslim, Christian and Jewish intellectuals and thereby helped spawn the greatest period of philosophical creativity in the Middle Ages from the 8th to 13th centuries.[4] Another reason the Islamic world flourished during this period was an early emphasis on freedom of speech, as summarized by al-Hashimi (a cousin of Caliph al-Ma'mun) in the following letter to one of the religious opponents he was attempting to convert through reason:[11]
"Bring forward all the arguments you wish and say whatever you please and speak your mind freely. Now that you are safe and free to say whatever you please appoint some arbitrator who will impartially judge between us and lean only towards the truth and be free from the empary of passion, and that arbitrator shall be Reason, whereby God makes us responsible for our own rewards and punishments. Herein I have dealt justly with you and have given you full security and am ready to accept whatever decision Reason may give for me or against me. For "There is no compulsion in religion" (Qur'an 2:256) and I have only invited you to accept our faith willingly and of your own accord and have pointed out the hideousness of your present belief. Peace be upon you and the blessings of God!"
The earliest known treatises dealing with environmentalism and environmental science, especially pollution, were Arabic treatises written by al-Kindi, al-Razi, Ibn Al-Jazzar, al-Tamimi, al-Masihi, Avicenna, Ali ibn Ridwan, Abd-el-latif, and Ibn al-Nafis. Their works covered a number of subjects related to pollution such as air pollution, water pollution, soil contamination, municipal solid waste mishandling, and environmental impact assessments of certain localities.[12] Cordoba, al-Andalus also had the first waste containers and waste disposal facilities for litter collection.[13]
All this talk of Jesus and who is saved and who isn't. It is one of the reasons I ultimately rejected Christianity and returned to the religion of my heritage. Judaism has no such teachings. The basic principals of Judaism all come down to how do we make this world a better place. What do we do to contribute to our community and society. Some sects don't even believe the Messiah prophesies are literal. Rather, they believe God's Kingdom will reign on this earth when humantity has evolved to a point where WE bring it to pass on this earth by how we choose to conduct our lives.
There is only one sect of Judaism that seeks to "convert" on any level. And even they are really only asking non-observant Jews to become observant, although they will not reject a non-jew who wishes to make a covenant with God to follow the Jewish laws.
Yes, there are zealots among the Jewish people. Zealots who would reject all non-jews and zealots who would reject those Jewish people who observe differently than they. But, the vast majority of the Jewish people do not believe or practice such things. Judaism teaches that we are all God's children. While the OT does speak of conquering lands and killing its inhabitants, it also has passages that teach us how to love and honor the "stranger" among us. To every season a time (or however it goes).
That is what the Bible is . . . the story of the evolution of humanity. How we have grown from Adam and Eve, through child sacrifices, through animal sacrifices, to wherever we are here and now.
Whatever/Whoever Jesus was. . . man, messiah, great rabbi . . . he came to teach peace and love. Yet, even his teachings have been used to for war and hate. So too have the teachings of Mohammad and Moses been used.
ive met and read and studied with and sat at the feet of a number of rabbi rebbes and such...and i found a lot of life in the way they tell the story of "how the messiah comes" and such...especially how it often involved a group of people misunderstanding that it is not really about a specific someone somewhere else with unique powers and authority...and then somehow realizing the nature of messiah when they notice it among themselves...as an profoundly ordinary quality of life that can be found or cultivated anywhere, any time...although it rarely is (or rarely seems to be)...and that this is in fact MORE important to understand, as it then actually applies practically, involves lifestyles and ethics, a vision for future generations, and does not remain in the realm of concept and belief.
which not only seems like the way Jesus talked about messiah...but the way he demonstrated it. the most unforgettable and misunderstood jew of all.
perhaps to say that "jesus saves" can also mean that the story of jesus carries a potential to lead us to greater wholeness...away from living in a small piece of our self. and this is a big deal. the whole anatomy of our psychology, physiology, and existential condition is wrapped up in this.
and essential to being human is having a pantheon of heros and symbols in our psyche, typically with a number one role model of them all. this imagined body of characters and forces is important, and the more we are involved in cultivating it, the more likely we are to know where they are, and not mistake them for the whole ultimate reality (aka God).
as our understanding of messiah develops, we become our role model...which was perhaps a primary point of messiah all along. a north star for navigation...for a deepening of everything we already always are, including our lifelong heros...and all the angels climbing up and down on our rungs.
this is one thing some christians, muslims and jews agree quite completely and easily on.
one thing ive learned from many of the christians, muslims and jews that ive read and met and known...is that myth and story is like a vital organ of human experience...and the whole body of any one life does better when every organ is thriving in one, then magnified in cultures in cultures in cultures of such whole bodies of lives.
to the depths and degrees we forget the story is a story, we lose sight of all other organs. We may even individually or collectively fight to keep an isolated myth alive while the rest of the organs of our experience are failing...even to the point of becoming enemies of our own vital organs, like reason and compassion...not knowing that our death-grip on story is a major part of what is making the others increasingly unwell and seemingly hostile.
same with non-religious contexts. the last century of art, media and marketing is plenty of story for a mythic secularism, imbedding self-destructive patterns and lifestyles into a shared script...one that might even include a passionate prejudice against all religious language.
even the language of reason and compassion can become reduced to a myth. like when old scientists reject new discoveries, even becoming fundamentalist and evangelical about their favorite scientific era or field. or when compassion becomes a smothering fixer with a messianic mommy complex.
depending on whether we are too loose or too tight in our cultural sense of self, we can retune by including more story in our lives, or stepping back from the story we are lost in.
imho, what this looks like for much of Christianity, including ex-twi, is to find a way to deepen our Christianity. which can be like leaving on an adventure, or a quest, and exploring the 2000 years of stuff vpw said he threw out. even exploring the best you can find of other religions as a way to test the fidelity of both.
and if someone was born into another religion and converted to Christianity because of the failures of some in their religion, the pattern is that the lifelong search is most likely to be resolved by returning to the religion of our birth and finding the treasures under the layer of dust.
for my self, i and finding that my religious story is mostly a blend of American Christianity and rock n roll. i could never become as much of a buddhist or a jew if my life depended on it...although my christianity has only deepened from my experiences with them. and the quakers have taught me most about what is best about american christianity...though i am not a quaker...and i have learned a lot more about a lot of other things from the older european christian arts and traditions.
I think it is circular. When I look at Jewish history . . . periods of great love and enlightenment, followed by periods of pharisees seeking after the law and forgetting the reason for the law . . . back to periods of great love and enlightment and so forth. I suspect the same occurs in all religions. I like to hope, however, that with every cycle we grow a little better . . .a little closer to the light . . .even if we do take a half step backward for every step forward.
Not so different from the child who moves away from his parents, but must return to them again to reassure himself that they are still there . . . still holding the boundaries in place . . . but slowly moving the boundaries too, as the child grows older and needs fewer and fewer of them.
yeah, circular... growth in light of cyclical and seasonal tides and conditions.
the way a tree grows in spite of dying back every year.
the treelike nature of "all alls" is cyclical...and linear, radial, layered, wave and fieldlike.
i suspect every plant metaphor in scripture may be pointing to some aspect of the gardenlike nature of everything.
religions, cultures, societies...souls, psyches, minds, bodies...even love and the stories of our lives...moves and flows in the same patterned ways as the rest of life on earth.
we live in not a static, but a process oriented universe.
As a sample of the richness of this book, here is Fr. Keatings's short list of points of agreement that he reports in his introduction:
The world religions bear witness to the experience of Ultimate Reality, to which they give various names.
Ultimate Reality cannot be limited by any name or concept.
Ultimate Reality is the ground of infinite potentiality and actualization.
Faith is opening, accepting, and responding to Ultimate Reality. Faith in this sense precedes every belief system.
The potential for human wholeness - or, in other frames of reference, enlightenment, salvation, transcendence, transformation, blessedness - is present in every human being.
Ultimate Reality may be experienced not only through religious practices, but also through nature, art, human relationships, and service to others.
As long as the human condition is experienced as separate from Ultimate Reality, it is subject to ignorance and illusion, weakness and suffering.
Discliplined practice is essential to the spiritual life; yet spiritual attainment is not the result of one's own efforts, but the result of the experience of oneness with Ultimate Reality.
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socks
One thing that comes to mind that hopefully won't produce a sidetrack is that for a large portion of the Christian population Christianity is defined around the belief that Jesus "is" God, as a part o
sirguessalot
pondering between chores... perhaps it can be said that Jesus was somehow the most developed of history, and happened to be a jewish man. and everyone who experienced him began interpreting and acti
socks
To add - this approach, known as "Rant 234", will probably not have the legs to go far, I know that. But the steady tapping of my keyboard keys is so soothing, I have to keep it up, yet a little while
sirguessalot
thanks everyone for the contributions. all of them. so many points...so many directions to go with this topic.
yeah...Karen Armstrong's is a much needed voice in the world. and the Charter for Compassion...yeah, much can be said about that.
as ive written about here often, i find that one of the most important and revealing (and challenging to bring up) ways to view the problems and gifts of religion, especially the Abrahamic, is through a "developmental" lense.
once we can at least acknowledge the developing nature of human worldviews, we may be able to begin to understand why we are interpreting the same information so many conflicting ways.
we may even begin to get a clearer idea where our own worldview is trying to go, and what is stopping us from going there, which is as important, if not more, than what anyone else is doing.
yet, odd as it may seem, one of the primary obstacles to a more developmental worldview often comes from the compassionate worldview...as if pointing out patterns of development is somehow unloving, or untrue.
yet, rejecting development in the name of compassion is a contradiction and a hypocrisy.
yet, like the Charter for Compassion attempts to do, development can begin to be addressed without abandoning compassion at all. although that does not guarantee the response/reaction will be loving or kind.
i would even go as far as to say that a very practical common ground that all 3 have shared in their better histories is a recognition of the very important need for development...and many of the rites of passage and other rituals and practices of the abrahamic religions actually served to stimulate development of the moral and cognitive imaginations from stage to stage to stage...as well as the development of greater degrees of compassion, sanity, and wisdom.
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sirguessalot
pondering between chores...
perhaps it can be said that Jesus was somehow the most developed of history, and happened to be a jewish man.
and everyone who experienced him began interpreting and acting from wherever they were in their development at the time.
just as we have been doing since the dawn of time.
this generates streams of artifacts and activity that flow into a history already deep beyond deep with artifacts flowing from a world of people interpreting and acting from wherever they are.
abraham was interpreting melchizadek.
melchizadek was interpreting abraham.
jesus was interpreting them both,
john the baptist was interpreting jesus.
every prophet, saint, rabbi, hero and villain interprets the world and the things they've read or heard about it from wherever they are.
and mohammed was interpreting them all from where he was, which seems more like David, in general.
and the bahai are interpreting all that.
yada yada yada
and we are now interpreting some aspect of that vast ocean of artifacts from where we are.
we have interpreted some of the same aspects of this vast ocean of artifacts from different places at different points in our life.
the worldview of everyone posting or reading this has already come a long way baby.
yet, are we ever really done?
no one is better than anyone else in any sort of absolute or ultimate sense...yet we are still full of qualities.
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year2027
God first
thanks Todd
I wonder what Jesus Christ would say about Atheist
I wonder what Jesus Christ would say about Agnosticism
I wonder what Jesus Christ would say about Protagoras
I wonder what Jesus Christ would say about skeptical
I wonder what Jesus Christ would say about non-religious
I wonder what Jesus Christ would say about theoretical atheism
I wonder what Jesus Christ would say about methodological naturalism
how would Jesus Christ compared the love any of these have to the love Christian have today
or the love a homosexual compared to straight Christian
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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year2027
God first
Possibilities of life, by death!
09-20-2010
How can life come by death it is impossibilities but it is the life kind otherwise the rules for fleshly do come into play when we have spiritual life? That what the word of God claims otherwise Jesus Christ made what is impossibilities possibilities? Otherwise in God kind all things are possibilities.
Otherwise love is impossibilities that divide fleshly men from spiritual men because Atheist means nothing nor Christian nor any made possibilities. We are past possibilities life by the death of Jesus Christ because we believe the impossibilities of life by death. The possibilities of life by death, thank you; with love and a holy kiss Roy.
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socks
What would Jesus say, do, think? about a lot of things. Can't tell you.
"Jesus" has really become an idealized icon, a man for all seasons, a god for all times, healer, lover, commander-in-chief, warrior, peace bunny. You name it He's probably got a t-shirt with His name on it somewhere.
And there's no lack of spokepersons for Jesus who will tell us exactly what He would do, think, say, endorse or condemn. He has an army of dudes and dudettes who are "like that" with him, on a first name basis and apparently have his personal cell phone number if needed.
Apparently the Divine Marketing Strategy is "Total Saturation - All Demographics". If we can sell a coffee cup with His mug on it, we're in baby! Next stop - mutli-line that household! Get the skateboard deal, it's got big markup! and they'll see His Name everytime they scoop! Yeah!
I mean no disrespect to Jesus, but I have no respect for the hordes who trade on His name and reputation.
I agree with the earlier sentiment that those of faith should spend their time investing in their own faith and development to their own betterment. To a great degree that's what most people do. And faced with a conflict I think the average person would choose to get along li'l doggie and keep to their own business, if allowed. Christians witness and share the Good News with a basic understanding that not everyone will believe, or is "called" or will respond. Any thoughtful Christian will understand that while the moment is always urgent, the times are in God's hands and it's not to the individual to pass final judgment in these days. There's always reason to hope and plan for a better day tomorrow, for everyone.
An aspect to our modern society that works against that is the never ending onslaught of information that's pushed in our faces everyday. It isn't enough to hear something once, we have to hear it over and over and over, a 100 different ways. People get to where they won't leave each other alone or allow someone to go their own way if they so choose. We all have to get our point across because it's important that you understand. And we have no end of ways to do that.
We preach "freedom" and ring it loud in everyone else's faces but when it comes to giving our neighbor a little peace let alone "love" we just won't do it. Christians are no different than those of Jesus's day - they want to ferret out who to love and when and how to act good to whom and who they don't have to or need to and who gets their best and who gets their not-so-best and who gets a panty load of grief because that's surely what "Jesus would do".
B-----t.
I can't' live like that. I've yet to meet the person who doesn't deserve a decent night's sleep and a half way comfortable cot to put their stuff under.
If we're "saved", we have reason to celebrate and a party to invite others to. If they don't want to come what're we supposed to do? Shoot 'em? That's definitely bad hosting.
Maybe a good start to compassionate development would be to learn to leave each other alone sometimes and stop bugging the crap out of each other.
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socks
To add - this approach, known as "Rant 234", will probably not have the legs to go far, I know that. But the steady tapping of my keyboard keys is so soothing, I have to keep it up, yet a little while, bear with me.
What it amounts to in practice is "Nothin'". Doesn't sound like much I know.
"What'd you do today to help your neighbor see the Light, brother?"
"Nothin'".
"Did you knock on everyone's door today on your list and give them the 5 minute "Jesus Loves All Sinners Even You" message?"
"No".
"How many tickets to the Xtreme RawkRGrrrls For Gawd concert did you sell so far???"
"None".
See, it's just not going to move a lot of units so yeah. Or no.
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mstar1
Apparently Muslims have quite a party planned as well.....or so Ive heard.... :)
.....
really Im not sure if these "parties" were part of the original idea of these religions or if they are later constructs added somewhere along the line as a motivator during tough times or to keep people disciplined..(or something)...I really dont know----but To me and my very limited grasp of them all they all seem to deal much more in activities in the 'here and now' than they do with the eventual eternal place-
---but if it is true, why can't you only not shoot them for not coming to yours, but also wish them a good time at theirs?
Sound very Zen, the value of nothingness cannot be understated :P
many religions and forms of spirituality strive for that as a realization
"Jesus emptied himself"....
'Moving Units', witnessing by numbers, signing people up for the class, how many people in your church (mosque), (synagogue)? seems such a capitalist, western, profit oriented view of religion. It becomes measurable,,and then like business--competitive--then cuthroat---then eventually wars.
Nothing sounds like much more to me...Its also a common point of all 3
"the meek shall inherit...."
a cup only gets filled when its empty
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socks
Party's an FOS, mstar1. For most humans on this planet life's a balance of sucksbad and hurtsmore. 2 hots and a day without diahrrea is a party for many.
Life is a celebration however, and while I can't have everyone over at once, that's my take. If your mileage varies, write me at momoneyformeMeansmoloveforYou@socksarama.com and I'll get you some Love Juice Tonic that will make your day.
I believe the application of one's faith will vary to the times and produce major religious cultural shifts as short as generation to generation. As a result, "religion" has a place, the holding spot for the traditions we develop. Hating "religion" is like hating our own human natures. Yes yes - religion is everything "man adds to the truth", blah blah blah. It's also the day to day activities that we, as mighty sons of the Most High God, embrace and repeat successfully. In fact I'd suggest that it's our hardazzed tendency to label "everyone ELSE'S" religion as THE BAD religion and always allow our own as the GOOD KIND because of course, we'd never do anything wrong deliberately, that would be bad - that makes getting along in any meaningful way for more than a few months at a time difficult.
In fact everyone no matter how truth-laden and encrusted with Transcendence that they are, has things they bring to "their" faith as the individual participants, the "containers", the holy bowls that hold the righteous Cheerios. (note to self - copyright that name! It's mine!!! mine!!! The Righteous Cheerios !!!)
(I've never gotten much traction out of the "empty bowl, the space not the stuff" that's become so attractive in Western Buddhism. But the idea of an ultimate nirvanic nothingness might have a certain allure for some, I get that).
But less is more mstar and I agree, seriously. Like the old old old saying goes, we might bo better to try "doing it in our daily lives" - daily always noted for those who might be living their lives in a non-daily way. Difficult but that's why we need to make consideration for those who have gone that less travelled road).
Put another way - if I never wore a "Jesus" T-shirt or a Pneuma B Ball hat, or sang "Father Along" at the top of my lungs - would people know I was a Christian? And is that the term they'd use to describe the incredibly wonderful, enlightening, power-filled and love struck way that I live, as I exemplify all of the good and none of the bad of my faith as I always do most certainly, in my daily life?
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sirguessalot
maybe Abraham experienced kensho and satori
and interpreted and re-interpreted them throughout his own ego trip
100th monkey at the dawn of myth and culture in a more infantile and feral world
seed father of many branches of symbols sayings and languages
melchizadek was the yoda of his journey...the old wise man of his youth
meanwhile, the populations of the world continue to develop in fields of waves and waves of fields
interpreting and re-interpreting all the branches of the story from every stage of the play
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sirguessalot
Ten Bulls is one of my favorite Zen poems.
and these articles on Buddhism and the Roman world and Greco-Buddhism shed further light on the world of the Gospels and NT.
so how might the lineages of Buddhism relate to the lineages of Abraham?
like Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed...Buddha is being interpreted form every state and stage of human experience.
some people are even interpreting Buddhists text to justify genocide against Hindus in Sri Lanka.
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sirguessalot
from this article on Golden Age of Islam...
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Abigail
All this talk of Jesus and who is saved and who isn't. It is one of the reasons I ultimately rejected Christianity and returned to the religion of my heritage. Judaism has no such teachings. The basic principals of Judaism all come down to how do we make this world a better place. What do we do to contribute to our community and society. Some sects don't even believe the Messiah prophesies are literal. Rather, they believe God's Kingdom will reign on this earth when humantity has evolved to a point where WE bring it to pass on this earth by how we choose to conduct our lives.
There is only one sect of Judaism that seeks to "convert" on any level. And even they are really only asking non-observant Jews to become observant, although they will not reject a non-jew who wishes to make a covenant with God to follow the Jewish laws.
Yes, there are zealots among the Jewish people. Zealots who would reject all non-jews and zealots who would reject those Jewish people who observe differently than they. But, the vast majority of the Jewish people do not believe or practice such things. Judaism teaches that we are all God's children. While the OT does speak of conquering lands and killing its inhabitants, it also has passages that teach us how to love and honor the "stranger" among us. To every season a time (or however it goes).
That is what the Bible is . . . the story of the evolution of humanity. How we have grown from Adam and Eve, through child sacrifices, through animal sacrifices, to wherever we are here and now.
Whatever/Whoever Jesus was. . . man, messiah, great rabbi . . . he came to teach peace and love. Yet, even his teachings have been used to for war and hate. So too have the teachings of Mohammad and Moses been used.
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cman
Yep pretty silly when Jesus is said to be an example.
It's more like - Jesus demonstrating salvation that is quite real.
Even from the womb.
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sirguessalot
ive met and read and studied with and sat at the feet of a number of rabbi rebbes and such...and i found a lot of life in the way they tell the story of "how the messiah comes" and such...especially how it often involved a group of people misunderstanding that it is not really about a specific someone somewhere else with unique powers and authority...and then somehow realizing the nature of messiah when they notice it among themselves...as an profoundly ordinary quality of life that can be found or cultivated anywhere, any time...although it rarely is (or rarely seems to be)...and that this is in fact MORE important to understand, as it then actually applies practically, involves lifestyles and ethics, a vision for future generations, and does not remain in the realm of concept and belief.
which not only seems like the way Jesus talked about messiah...but the way he demonstrated it. the most unforgettable and misunderstood jew of all.
perhaps to say that "jesus saves" can also mean that the story of jesus carries a potential to lead us to greater wholeness...away from living in a small piece of our self. and this is a big deal. the whole anatomy of our psychology, physiology, and existential condition is wrapped up in this.
and essential to being human is having a pantheon of heros and symbols in our psyche, typically with a number one role model of them all. this imagined body of characters and forces is important, and the more we are involved in cultivating it, the more likely we are to know where they are, and not mistake them for the whole ultimate reality (aka God).
as our understanding of messiah develops, we become our role model...which was perhaps a primary point of messiah all along. a north star for navigation...for a deepening of everything we already always are, including our lifelong heros...and all the angels climbing up and down on our rungs.
this is one thing some christians, muslims and jews agree quite completely and easily on.
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Abigail
Very well said, Sir!
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sirguessalot
thanks abi...likewise
one thing ive learned from many of the christians, muslims and jews that ive read and met and known...is that myth and story is like a vital organ of human experience...and the whole body of any one life does better when every organ is thriving in one, then magnified in cultures in cultures in cultures of such whole bodies of lives.
to the depths and degrees we forget the story is a story, we lose sight of all other organs. We may even individually or collectively fight to keep an isolated myth alive while the rest of the organs of our experience are failing...even to the point of becoming enemies of our own vital organs, like reason and compassion...not knowing that our death-grip on story is a major part of what is making the others increasingly unwell and seemingly hostile.
same with non-religious contexts. the last century of art, media and marketing is plenty of story for a mythic secularism, imbedding self-destructive patterns and lifestyles into a shared script...one that might even include a passionate prejudice against all religious language.
even the language of reason and compassion can become reduced to a myth. like when old scientists reject new discoveries, even becoming fundamentalist and evangelical about their favorite scientific era or field. or when compassion becomes a smothering fixer with a messianic mommy complex.
depending on whether we are too loose or too tight in our cultural sense of self, we can retune by including more story in our lives, or stepping back from the story we are lost in.
imho, what this looks like for much of Christianity, including ex-twi, is to find a way to deepen our Christianity. which can be like leaving on an adventure, or a quest, and exploring the 2000 years of stuff vpw said he threw out. even exploring the best you can find of other religions as a way to test the fidelity of both.
and if someone was born into another religion and converted to Christianity because of the failures of some in their religion, the pattern is that the lifelong search is most likely to be resolved by returning to the religion of our birth and finding the treasures under the layer of dust.
for my self, i and finding that my religious story is mostly a blend of American Christianity and rock n roll. i could never become as much of a buddhist or a jew if my life depended on it...although my christianity has only deepened from my experiences with them. and the quakers have taught me most about what is best about american christianity...though i am not a quaker...and i have learned a lot more about a lot of other things from the older european christian arts and traditions.
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Abigail
I think it is circular. When I look at Jewish history . . . periods of great love and enlightenment, followed by periods of pharisees seeking after the law and forgetting the reason for the law . . . back to periods of great love and enlightment and so forth. I suspect the same occurs in all religions. I like to hope, however, that with every cycle we grow a little better . . .a little closer to the light . . .even if we do take a half step backward for every step forward.
Not so different from the child who moves away from his parents, but must return to them again to reassure himself that they are still there . . . still holding the boundaries in place . . . but slowly moving the boundaries too, as the child grows older and needs fewer and fewer of them.
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sirguessalot
yeah, circular... growth in light of cyclical and seasonal tides and conditions.
the way a tree grows in spite of dying back every year.
the treelike nature of "all alls" is cyclical...and linear, radial, layered, wave and fieldlike.
i suspect every plant metaphor in scripture may be pointing to some aspect of the gardenlike nature of everything.
religions, cultures, societies...souls, psyches, minds, bodies...even love and the stories of our lives...moves and flows in the same patterned ways as the rest of life on earth.
we live in not a static, but a process oriented universe.
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cman
one of many further readings on process thinking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_North_Whitehead#Process_philosophy
though some definitely disagree
much is proven
and North is falsely associated with some others not in that article
but it would come up if any know of him
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cman
hope i didn't go off topic or kill this thread
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sirguessalot
not imho...life happens as we know...i frequently lose access to a computer and the web these days.
I especially like how Whitehead's connection to Heraclitus even connects us to the John 1 thread regarding the Logos.
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cman
Thanks sirg, nice article too, with plenty to consider.
Even with Logos it holds a defining substance.
There's so many enlightened, that we could look anywhere and see it.
All for just taking a look....and another, and a few more draws a bigger picture.
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year2027
God frist
thanks everybody
those people, Christians, Muslims, Jews and Atheist are all the Children of Abraham
you some one should them
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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sirguessalot
some links and quotes to consider...
review of "The Common Heart", based on the reflections of the participants of the Snowmass interreligious conference.
Christian-Muslim dialogue
Christian-Muslim and interfaith dialogue links
The Book of the Heart
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