"What? TWI is running these? Or "pirated, contaminated" copies? Yeah, that IS great!"
Contaminated? Huh?
Often limbs were holding copies when entire limbs were M&A'ed.
I know that I was told [by a limb] to hold my copy of PFAL, under the assumption that there would come a time when it would be needed. This while 'The Way of California Inc' was in fairly good standing with HQ.
I am not running a PFAL class right now, though we have ran one since returning stateside.
Galen: I was trying to be facetious. In the early 90s LCM would occasionally go on a rant about ex TWI people who stole ABS and run PFAL classes whose ministries are built on thievery, etc. I'm pretty sure he called them "spiritually contaminated" classes or something like that.
Nearly every church attending person I talk to is pitifully hamstrung on one point after another that we had made crystal clear for us in PFAL. Things like consciousness immediately after death, the trinity, works for the new birth, power dying with the apostles, God sending sicknesses, being held to the Mosaic law, God forcing His will in people's minds, God being a tyrant... the list goes on and on.
John Lynn and CES, regardless of their vehement stand against Dr, have admitted in writing (and written in a prominent place) that PFAL delivered a load of God's Word, the size of which that hadn't been seen since the first century.
I THINK they printed this on the front page of their ten year anniversary newsletter.
I see a real big world of church error out there as the only alternative to PFAL.
Mike, there are DVD classes that attempt to teach Scriptures similar but better than PFAL.
Nicky Gumbel, a british Anglican priest has Alpha(which does include 3 sections on Holy Spirit and optional SIT) ; United Methodist pastor Rob Weber does Beginings ; and Neil Anderson has Beta(sort of Advanced Class) based on Victory over the Darkness and The Bondage
The PFAL revelations have been circulating since 1953 when Dr put the WHOLE thing together. Dr taught many who talked to many more for decades. Dr was on the radio on many stations for years. Many of the elements were out there before that 1953 date, but not so together.
I'm not surprised that elements of the truths we were taught pop up in various churches and classes. What would surprise me is the appearance of the WHOLE package in a church setting.
I've seen churches that know Jesus Christ is not God, but then turn around and assert God sends sicknesses to build us up. I've seen churches that teach consciousness after death comes only by being raised from the dead, but also that SIT is devilish. I've seen churches that teach SIT is wonderful, but that it's God Who decides when we SIT and Who moves our lips, throat and tongue.
I'm not interested in a few elements of the PFAL truths being taught along with horrible error. I'm interested in the WHOLE package.
If there is some ministry out there that teaches the WHOLE package, then why didn't they align themselves with Dr when he was alive, or why wouldn't they now celebrate finding the PFAL books as wonderful confirmations of their doctrine like Dr did with finding Bullinger half way through his ministry?
There aren't any ministries out there that even come close to PFAL!
If anything, ministries that once were relatively close to PFAL are now drifting farther away! Look at Geer and CES and how close they once were, but now both have denounced the absolute, sure, and total foreknowledge of God. Even TWI, where the PFAL books are still marketed, has drifted from what Dr taught in heinous ways!
When God makes His moves and gives His revelation, the very next day the devil moves in and starts disrupting it wherever he is allowed by inappreciative recipients of God's grace. I've not only seen this in my life, and in the lives of my fellow grads, but it's all through the scriptures. Over and over there were incidents like the golden calf charging in right after God blessed His people. The forsaking of the Apostle Paul by ALL in the first century is the rule.
The big difference THIS time is that the accurate copies of the revelation were printed in mass and distributed around the globe before the corruption of the texts could happen.
The corruption of us grads, the followers, proceeded right on schedule, but THIS time people started coming back to the revelation before the original generation of recipients died off. We are living in truly unique times! I see it as THE new administration, and so do others who have come back to PFAL. The return of Christ is intimately connected with the Christ in us returning to this Word.
Well, I have yet to attend a church ...even with their supposed gross lack of *word* that has hurt people the way twi has.....I have my doubts as to whether they (the churches) are really as spiritually *dark* as we were led to believe.....
Supposedly knowing *the word* did little to prevent great evil from being embraced and practiced in twi.
*Fruit* would indicate that the churches that I attend have much more on the ball spiritually than twi ever did, leading me to believe that the *word* taught in twi, despite their claims, may not have been authentic.
Arrogance learned in twi can be what that keeps us from enjoying meaningfull fellowship with our spiritual bretheren post twi.
I agree with ex 10, there are many outstanding examples of spirit filled christian ministries ....
The devil leaves churches relatively alone if they aren't seriously threatening his power, even if they have lots of good times and wholesome emotions flowing there.
The reason so much evil was at TWI was BECAUSE so much Word was there to begin with. I said in my previous long post that "When God makes His moves and gives His revelation, the very next day the devil moves in and starts disrupting it wherever he is allowed by inappreciative recipients of God's grace."
We helped allow all those evil things to grow in there because we didn't properly followup and master the material we had given to us. We winged it and drifted from the good and abundant Word that was available. The lack of fruit was due to us grads not properly assimilating the Word. Leaders would not have had AS MUCH an opportunity to grow in their evil if we underlings had faced up to it better. That's how Christ's Body should work, where even underlings are important. I say this as both an underling myself who screwed up in not confronting leaders, and also as a minor leader who also screwed up. I'm not saying it was ALL the fault of us underlings, but we contributed.
The good fruit was there to the extent that people truly ate the Word and acted on it. It's still there in the books for those who return to them.
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Bolshevik
Remember the ROA everyone smiling stupid all day? Zombies. Just zombies. With snack tents.
Rocky
Not that I necessarily disagree with you two, but returning to the topic of the PFLAP class... it's all about removing uncertainty from us and replacing it with Victor Wierwille. He had ONE freak
Bolshevik
I can't say what Christian practices are. Any quote by LCM should be read as if he is yelling or at a low rumble leading up to the yelling . . . Certainly sounds like an inner conflict
johniam
What? TWI is running these? Or "pirated, contaminated" copies? Yeah, that IS great!
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Oakspear
Who notified you?
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rascal
Probably more classes than twi is currently running lol...they are probably jealous.
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dmiller
..... and how much does it cost (these days)?
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Galen
johniam:
"What? TWI is running these? Or "pirated, contaminated" copies? Yeah, that IS great!"
Contaminated? Huh?
Often limbs were holding copies when entire limbs were M&A'ed.
I know that I was told [by a limb] to hold my copy of PFAL, under the assumption that there would come a time when it would be needed. This while 'The Way of California Inc' was in fairly good standing with HQ.
I am not running a PFAL class right now, though we have ran one since returning stateside.
:-)
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Galen
Oakspear:
"Who notified you?"
When I last ran one, I announced it here on GS {it may have been back when GreaseSpot was on EzBoard].
I friend told me yesterday, on another board that I frequent. That other board is 'pro-PFAL'.
Unfortunately no classes are running in my local area.
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Galen
dmiller:
"..... and how much does it cost (these days)?"
I have no idea.
When I have ran PFAL, or any other class from TWI-1, we have never charged anything.
:-)
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johniam
Galen: I was trying to be facetious. In the early 90s LCM would occasionally go on a rant about ex TWI people who stole ABS and run PFAL classes whose ministries are built on thievery, etc. I'm pretty sure he called them "spiritually contaminated" classes or something like that.
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ex10
Galen, dear
I hate to be the one to break the news to you, but.....
:)-->
There's much more out there that is way better than PFAL.
I encourage you to look around a tad bit....
And I'm not talking splinters or clones. It's a real big Chrisitan world out there.
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WordWolf
Here, here!
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Mike
Where? where?
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ex10
Church, maybe?
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Mike
ex10,
You don't sound as sure in this recent post.
Nearly every church attending person I talk to is pitifully hamstrung on one point after another that we had made crystal clear for us in PFAL. Things like consciousness immediately after death, the trinity, works for the new birth, power dying with the apostles, God sending sicknesses, being held to the Mosaic law, God forcing His will in people's minds, God being a tyrant... the list goes on and on.
John Lynn and CES, regardless of their vehement stand against Dr, have admitted in writing (and written in a prominent place) that PFAL delivered a load of God's Word, the size of which that hadn't been seen since the first century.
I THINK they printed this on the front page of their ten year anniversary newsletter.
I see a real big world of church error out there as the only alternative to PFAL.
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Danny
Mike
Maybe you need glasses or better ones. Where i sit thier are great chuches out there that have never heard of pfal.
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Mike
Why are they "great" if they are riddled with the kinds of errors I just listed?
Why is their never hearing of PFAL so significant to you? Does fame = truth in your book?
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vickles
Mike, maybe you haven't looked hard enough.
There are plenty of christians out there with the knowledge of the bible that have never heard of TWI, PFAL, etc....
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Mike, there are DVD classes that attempt to teach Scriptures similar but better than PFAL.
Nicky Gumbel, a british Anglican priest has Alpha(which does include 3 sections on Holy Spirit and optional SIT) ; United Methodist pastor Rob Weber does Beginings ; and Neil Anderson has Beta(sort of Advanced Class) based on Victory over the Darkness and The Bondage
Breaker. Actually, they are far superior.
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dmiller
Really!? Wow -- that's alright. I figured there had to be payment, and a minimal amount of students before a class could run. Good for you.
:)-->
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Mike
To Thomas Loy Bumgarner, Vickles, and ex10,
The PFAL revelations have been circulating since 1953 when Dr put the WHOLE thing together. Dr taught many who talked to many more for decades. Dr was on the radio on many stations for years. Many of the elements were out there before that 1953 date, but not so together.
I'm not surprised that elements of the truths we were taught pop up in various churches and classes. What would surprise me is the appearance of the WHOLE package in a church setting.
I've seen churches that know Jesus Christ is not God, but then turn around and assert God sends sicknesses to build us up. I've seen churches that teach consciousness after death comes only by being raised from the dead, but also that SIT is devilish. I've seen churches that teach SIT is wonderful, but that it's God Who decides when we SIT and Who moves our lips, throat and tongue.
I'm not interested in a few elements of the PFAL truths being taught along with horrible error. I'm interested in the WHOLE package.
If there is some ministry out there that teaches the WHOLE package, then why didn't they align themselves with Dr when he was alive, or why wouldn't they now celebrate finding the PFAL books as wonderful confirmations of their doctrine like Dr did with finding Bullinger half way through his ministry?
There aren't any ministries out there that even come close to PFAL!
If anything, ministries that once were relatively close to PFAL are now drifting farther away! Look at Geer and CES and how close they once were, but now both have denounced the absolute, sure, and total foreknowledge of God. Even TWI, where the PFAL books are still marketed, has drifted from what Dr taught in heinous ways!
When God makes His moves and gives His revelation, the very next day the devil moves in and starts disrupting it wherever he is allowed by inappreciative recipients of God's grace. I've not only seen this in my life, and in the lives of my fellow grads, but it's all through the scriptures. Over and over there were incidents like the golden calf charging in right after God blessed His people. The forsaking of the Apostle Paul by ALL in the first century is the rule.
The big difference THIS time is that the accurate copies of the revelation were printed in mass and distributed around the globe before the corruption of the texts could happen.
The corruption of us grads, the followers, proceeded right on schedule, but THIS time people started coming back to the revelation before the original generation of recipients died off. We are living in truly unique times! I see it as THE new administration, and so do others who have come back to PFAL. The return of Christ is intimately connected with the Christ in us returning to this Word.
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dmiller
Says who???
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Mike
Have you ever looked up the word "return" in a Young's Concordance?
Try it right now and see what you find.
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Mike
Well, it's been over an hour now. Has anyone found a KJV verse that talks about the return of Christ?
There's more to this, dmiller, I just want people to do a little searching to verify what I've seen in Youngs first.
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rascal
Well, I have yet to attend a church ...even with their supposed gross lack of *word* that has hurt people the way twi has.....I have my doubts as to whether they (the churches) are really as spiritually *dark* as we were led to believe.....
Supposedly knowing *the word* did little to prevent great evil from being embraced and practiced in twi.
*Fruit* would indicate that the churches that I attend have much more on the ball spiritually than twi ever did, leading me to believe that the *word* taught in twi, despite their claims, may not have been authentic.
Arrogance learned in twi can be what that keeps us from enjoying meaningfull fellowship with our spiritual bretheren post twi.
I agree with ex 10, there are many outstanding examples of spirit filled christian ministries ....
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Mike
rascal,
The devil leaves churches relatively alone if they aren't seriously threatening his power, even if they have lots of good times and wholesome emotions flowing there.
The reason so much evil was at TWI was BECAUSE so much Word was there to begin with. I said in my previous long post that "When God makes His moves and gives His revelation, the very next day the devil moves in and starts disrupting it wherever he is allowed by inappreciative recipients of God's grace."
We helped allow all those evil things to grow in there because we didn't properly followup and master the material we had given to us. We winged it and drifted from the good and abundant Word that was available. The lack of fruit was due to us grads not properly assimilating the Word. Leaders would not have had AS MUCH an opportunity to grow in their evil if we underlings had faced up to it better. That's how Christ's Body should work, where even underlings are important. I say this as both an underling myself who screwed up in not confronting leaders, and also as a minor leader who also screwed up. I'm not saying it was ALL the fault of us underlings, but we contributed.
The good fruit was there to the extent that people truly ate the Word and acted on it. It's still there in the books for those who return to them.
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