Mr. H -- I agree, I am sure Mike Feels, and Believes some, myself for instance, are mocking God. But Mike, you alone do not speak for GOD. I am mocking your approach to godliness through hidden, esoteric, gnostic-style wisdom and knowledge. This is NOT the door to the Kingdom of heaven, no matter HOW loudly Mike claims that it is....
God and His only-begotten Son have NOT been siiting idly by some "claimed" 1900+ years waiting for lil ole vic to come along...the ABSOLUTE HEIGHT of absurdity. Period. -->
The decoder ring analogy may fit pretty well, but I kind of think of PFAL more as a recipe book. Some of ole Doc's recipes worked out OK- other ones got you burned rock hard cakes no matter how closely you followed the instructions.
An honest discussion of PFAL does not really bother me at all. Just the "you too, can jump the moon" claims are not that honest, at least in my opinion.
Still waiting.. don't wait until I fall asleep from boredom.
Mr. H... a small clarification; secret decoder does not refer to PFAL itself But rather to Mike's whole "Master" schtick. I do not know how long you have followed his rap but I have since the first one he did here on GSC and he has posited some real wild stuff, which of course only comes once you have swallowed Mike's premise in toto and begun to join him in word studies of vp's usage of words in PFAL, RTHST, collaterals, etc.
...these are what the decoder ring refers to, not simply the class and materials itself...hope this clarifies a bit...YMMV... :D--> ;)--> -->
But add to this the insistent adherence to the "written" materials- that does not make sense. Example: RHST. How many editions were there? Last I counted there were about seven.
There are DRASTIC differences between late and original editions. Even called the "manifestations" "gifts". "Gifts of the spirit" course.
Somehow I thought that "revelation" did not work quite like that. He surely would have gotten it right the first time- like Paul, John, Mark, etc. What they spoke and had written stand the test of time. I haven't seen seven revisions of Ephesians in the old manuscripts recently.
I imagine somebody somewhere brought even this little point up more than once here.
Yep. You can argue from a doctrinal point of view all the live long day apparently.. to no avail.
Kind of funny- I thought I would never turn into one of the "characters" in a thread like this. Guess the stuff hit a little too close to home for me this time.
But really- the promise in PFAL that the principles were like adding two parts of hydrogen and one part oxygen- "don't care if you pray, or if you don't pray- Christian/ non-Christian" that you WILL get the results- does not size up with the word in general, or even with life. Some things may work like this, but not the vast majority.
Pray, believe, do all the stuff right- and a lot of times you STILL don't get what you want. I think the claims are unreasonable- or taken to unreasonable extremes.
Somehow chanting the magic words, "rub a dub dub, three spurts in a tub" and somehow holding a "positive" mind picture will not make problems go away.
Maybe life is not as simple as some would have us believe.
If anybody has a "miracle method" to all this, I insist on seeing some documentation.
But another thing.. I can't ignore all the good stuff either. It may be subjective- but I do have peace. Peace with God. I did learn that one in PFAL. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God..." I never read that verse before the class. Peace no matter what happens in life. Even in the absolute worse circumstances, the peace was still there.
But I don't have to work this one over a few more hundred times to "get it". Not really even one more time. I did not end up burning very many cakes with that part of the recipe..
I'm still waiting too MrH. Mike told me he would take some time & do "homework" on some questions/comments I made a long time ago and answer my questions also.
Methinks that since he chose to address one thing I said AFTER telling me he'd address EVERYthing excuses him from adressing ANYthing that I really wanted him to address.
NOW he can say, "Oh yes I DID address your questions, HCW. YOU are being (fill in the blank __________________ [some Mikean version of mean to him]) when you say I was LYING when I said I would answer your questions. Maybe YOU are blind to the fact that I've already answered you?"
He'll come in substituting one usage of the word 'address,' combined with another English word 'answer' to form his own "truth" which is only true to him and whomever comes along behind him and reads it with a propensity towards believing HIM over their own actual logic system.
Sorta like this:
"This particular usage of "address" in the KMV (King Mikes Version [that is the possessive version of Mike 'there was no punctuation in the original "God-breathed" text'] ...when used in conjunction with the simple form of "answer" as in the totalityishnesseprosity in the accusitive case of "addressed what you said."
Or in this case "wrote," because you actually are not speaking, you're writing, which literally according to usage, the TYPING you're doing is called writing in most cultures. It can only be referred to as actual "speaking" when said typing/writing is used in the context of chat rooms. Seeing as the forums and the chatrooms are similar in the sense that one must read the human experssions (writings/typing) in either OR the other (one usually doesn't, although not impossible for some, more initiated ones ['OLG's] read BOTH a forum and chat at once)in order for said human expression to become an actual communication on the temporal, human, level. Therefore, IF they the reader (target of the expression) did appear to read both [as in of the same category of each] at once it would actually be a rapid succession of a more simultaneous reading, rather than an actual at ONCE reading of at least two separate, but equal [in terms of being written words] expressions of thought/ideas.
A chat "room" (not an actual room but a section, usually of a website [not an actual place, but a specific address on the internet, otherwise known as the world wide web]) provides the opportunity of a more immediate response and almost virtual, ping-pong type of actual communication, which more closely resembles "speaking," whereas the forums differ in that they are more limited to EXPRESSIONS on one or more sides of a chosen issue.)
actually means, "Yes I DID answer ALL of your questions, as I said I would." The unalterable, clearly evident truth that I did, in fact, ADDRESS, things that YOU "said" (please refer to the above parenthetical remarks) AND I did, in fact, give AN answer, which was addressed (clearly) to you...proves with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision that I DID answer ALL of your questions.
ALL of everything that I addressed in that post, clearly to you was presented to you. All of what I answered were your questions, were they not? Therefore I answered ALL of your questions.
How mean of you it is to try and point out that I didn't when in fact I did. I don't creater to invective. (In other words. I'm not answering any more of your questions because I don't like them.) Besides, I already did answer all your questions. There is no contraditiction on my part, only confusion on your part in that you actually cannot see that I did answer all of your questions.
Why are you waiting for me to answer if you don't think I didn't answer all your questions?
***************
True "PFALian logic" says Mike already answered your questions too Mr. Hamma.
almost like you're "marked by da mog" and forever his property from henceforth forever, whether he's dead or not. Don't think so.
Too big of a yoke for me- won't fit. I tried wearing it.
Does God really have no hands but our hands? I partially question this. If God is limited to my little hands, He's in trouble. I found "they" squeezed this concept for all it was worth- no longer just being an "ambassador"- no longer just doing the right thing- helping folks the best we could. I think we were trying to do God's job- just getting in HIS way.
It may have started out right, but it turned into a nightmare. Don't do it and God's hands are tied. I feel I was a slave to every stinking detail. I think we took ourselves FAR too seriously, and God, not enough. After a while I started asking where God really was in all of this. Finally saw it- God was in very little of it. Just "me", just "them"- what WE could do.
That's what I got out of the "mastering" concept. Read enough, work enough, and then without or despite the Almighty, we could get the kingdom of God rolling here on earth in our everyday lives.. bunch of Pharisees- me included.
I think that's why the genuine HAS to be easy. I found working it over sixty plus times NOT the easy way that it promised to be. Cripe- if believing is that hard- then God doesn't get the glory. God doesn't get the credit. Its my great believing, my great mastering.
I really am a miserable SOB. Just an honest assessment. Finally admit it. No amount of "mastering" is gonna fix it. Thank God I don't have to. So was Moses- the meekest guy on the planet at the time.. Paul. Miserable- chief of the sinners.
Can't be the flesh that's gonna pull anything off.
Mr. H, I read this in a little book I got once. I'm not a Buddhist, but these little writs and sayings were kind of cool-
"The whole purpose of religion is to facilitate love and compassion, patience, tolerance, humility, forgiveness."
I don't know that I'd take that as a complete list or anything, but the idea resonates with me. That religion, if I consider it a way to organize and practice a godly awareness and pursuit in my life, does something - 'facilitate's' things, makes them easier. Not harder. And the first things I'd list would be items like on this list - things that reflect and inspire the type of life that Jesus taught and lived.
It's so weird, but I don't think that in the rush to perfect "our walks" as Christians that we're led enough towards the intrinsic value of the quality of life that Jesus Himself taught and lived. We're taught abundance in the wrong context. There's value in love in and of itself. Humility, in and of itself. Giving, for the sake of giving, not for the sake of receiving. AND that the reward for those things are the things themselves. That the humble person has his reward in that his life is balanced and true in his humility. He is at peace, no struggle, if only for a time.
I think "the genuine HAS to be easy" is a true saying! Easy in that it is what it is. If the Truth is in us it will grow with a little space and food. We're like gardners, I think. Happy in our little gardens we've been given. :)-->
Teachers want students. Preachers want an audience. But a godly life in any amount is it's own reward. Or can be.
I think that's why the genuine HAS to be easy. I found working it over sixty plus times NOT the easy way that it promised to be. Cripe- if believing is that hard- then God doesn't get the glory. God doesn't get the credit. Its my great believing, my great mastering.
Yep.. I think less and less of performance based Christianity day by day.. results always gauged by a unreasonable standard, on "their" terms.
PFAL took it to some real extremes- results guaranteed, results always available, a God that I could apparently figure out with the greatness of MY mind.
That kind of god is WAY too small, for me. I have a hard enough time understanding how the creation itself works.
Interesting.. the "pagans" had a god that they figured out- or more that one. They KNEW what their god did, or was supposed to do.. a god that'd take care of their crops, a god that would bring the sun up for them, a god that would.. fill in the blank. They "understood" their god- and understood the "deal"- and it was logical to them. They did their homage, their part- and the god would supposedly do his.
Makes PFAL look so primitive to me. In a lot of ways, I still feel like I'm a savage.
I find Ephesians rather interesting- here God and His love is revealed as being "infinitely diversified"- that was one good thing I got from the Vey. Unfortunately, though they beheld Him who is infinite, they chose to try to stuff Him back in a box.
I see it as THE new administration, and so do others who have come back to PFAL. The return of Christ is intimately connected with the Christ in us returning to this Word.
Hold the farm! I found the answer!
The Word is NOT the Bible, it's NOT Jesus, and it's NOT the Christ. The Word is PFAL
The PFAL revelations have been circulating since 1953 when Dr put the WHOLE thing together. Dr taught many who talked to many more for decades. Dr was on the radio on many stations for years. Many of the elements were out there before that 1953 date, but not so together.
I'm not surprised that elements of the truths we were taught pop up in various churches and classes. What would surprise me is the appearance of the WHOLE package in a church setting.
I've seen churches that know Jesus Christ is not God, but then turn around and assert God sends sicknesses to build us up. I've seen churches that teach consciousness after death comes only by being raised from the dead, but also that SIT is devilish. I've seen churches that teach SIT is wonderful, but that it's God Who decides when we SIT and Who moves our lips, throat and tongue.
I'm not interested in a few elements of the PFAL truths being taught along with horrible error. I'm interested in the WHOLE package.
If there is some ministry out there that teaches the WHOLE package, then why didn't they align themselves with Dr when he was alive, or why wouldn't they now celebrate finding the PFAL books as wonderful confirmations of their doctrine like Dr did with finding Bullinger half way through his ministry?
There aren't any ministries out there that even come close to PFAL!
If anything, ministries that once were relatively close to PFAL are now drifting farther away! Look at Geer and CES and how close they once were, but now both have denounced the absolute, sure, and total foreknowledge of God. Even TWI, where the PFAL books are still marketed, has drifted from what Dr taught in heinous ways!
When God makes His moves and gives His revelation, the very next day the devil moves in and starts disrupting it wherever he is allowed by inappreciative recipients of God's grace. I've not only seen this in my life, and in the lives of my fellow grads, but it's all through the scriptures. Over and over there were incidents like the golden calf charging in right after God blessed His people. The forsaking of the Apostle Paul by ALL in the first century is the rule.
The big difference THIS time is that the accurate copies of the revelation were printed in mass and distributed around the globe before the corruption of the texts could happen.
The corruption of us grads, the followers, proceeded right on schedule, but THIS time people started coming back to the revelation before the original generation of recipients died off. We are living in truly unique times! I see it as THE new administration, and so do others who have come back to PFAL. The return of Christ is intimately connected with the Christ in us returning to this Word.
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Bolshevik
Remember the ROA everyone smiling stupid all day? Zombies. Just zombies. With snack tents.
Rocky
Not that I necessarily disagree with you two, but returning to the topic of the PFLAP class... it's all about removing uncertainty from us and replacing it with Victor Wierwille. He had ONE freak
Bolshevik
I can't say what Christian practices are. Any quote by LCM should be read as if he is yelling or at a low rumble leading up to the yelling . . . Certainly sounds like an inner conflict
alfakat
Mr. H -- I agree, I am sure Mike Feels, and Believes some, myself for instance, are mocking God. But Mike, you alone do not speak for GOD. I am mocking your approach to godliness through hidden, esoteric, gnostic-style wisdom and knowledge. This is NOT the door to the Kingdom of heaven, no matter HOW loudly Mike claims that it is....
God and His only-begotten Son have NOT been siiting idly by some "claimed" 1900+ years waiting for lil ole vic to come along...the ABSOLUTE HEIGHT of absurdity. Period.
--> 
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Ham
Yep.. I agree. Now if only I could say that as concisely, heh heh.
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Ham
The decoder ring analogy may fit pretty well, but I kind of think of PFAL more as a recipe book. Some of ole Doc's recipes worked out OK- other ones got you burned rock hard cakes no matter how closely you followed the instructions.
An honest discussion of PFAL does not really bother me at all. Just the "you too, can jump the moon" claims are not that honest, at least in my opinion.
Still waiting.. don't wait until I fall asleep from boredom.
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alfakat
Mr. H... a small clarification; secret decoder does not refer to PFAL itself But rather to Mike's whole "Master" schtick. I do not know how long you have followed his rap but I have since the first one he did here on GSC and he has posited some real wild stuff, which of course only comes once you have swallowed Mike's premise in toto and begun to join him in word studies of vp's usage of words in PFAL, RTHST, collaterals, etc.
...these are what the decoder ring refers to, not simply the class and materials itself...hope this clarifies a bit...YMMV...
:D--> 
;)--> 
--> 
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Ham
Makes sense..
But add to this the insistent adherence to the "written" materials- that does not make sense. Example: RHST. How many editions were there? Last I counted there were about seven.
There are DRASTIC differences between late and original editions. Even called the "manifestations" "gifts". "Gifts of the spirit" course.
Somehow I thought that "revelation" did not work quite like that. He surely would have gotten it right the first time- like Paul, John, Mark, etc. What they spoke and had written stand the test of time. I haven't seen seven revisions of Ephesians in the old manuscripts recently.
I imagine somebody somewhere brought even this little point up more than once here.
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def59
Mike will say the final books and magazines were the true word.
Even though the way taught first thought revelation.
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Ham
Yep. You can argue from a doctrinal point of view all the live long day apparently.. to no avail.
Kind of funny- I thought I would never turn into one of the "characters" in a thread like this. Guess the stuff hit a little too close to home for me this time.
But really- the promise in PFAL that the principles were like adding two parts of hydrogen and one part oxygen- "don't care if you pray, or if you don't pray- Christian/ non-Christian" that you WILL get the results- does not size up with the word in general, or even with life. Some things may work like this, but not the vast majority.
Pray, believe, do all the stuff right- and a lot of times you STILL don't get what you want. I think the claims are unreasonable- or taken to unreasonable extremes.
Somehow chanting the magic words, "rub a dub dub, three spurts in a tub" and somehow holding a "positive" mind picture will not make problems go away.
Maybe life is not as simple as some would have us believe.
If anybody has a "miracle method" to all this, I insist on seeing some documentation.
Mike, I'm still waiting.
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Ham
But another thing.. I can't ignore all the good stuff either. It may be subjective- but I do have peace. Peace with God. I did learn that one in PFAL. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God..." I never read that verse before the class. Peace no matter what happens in life. Even in the absolute worse circumstances, the peace was still there.
But I don't have to work this one over a few more hundred times to "get it". Not really even one more time. I did not end up burning very many cakes with that part of the recipe..
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HCW
I'm still waiting too MrH. Mike told me he would take some time & do "homework" on some questions/comments I made a long time ago and answer my questions also.
Methinks that since he chose to address one thing I said AFTER telling me he'd address EVERYthing excuses him from adressing ANYthing that I really wanted him to address.
NOW he can say, "Oh yes I DID address your questions, HCW. YOU are being (fill in the blank __________________ [some Mikean version of mean to him]) when you say I was LYING when I said I would answer your questions. Maybe YOU are blind to the fact that I've already answered you?"
He'll come in substituting one usage of the word 'address,' combined with another English word 'answer' to form his own "truth" which is only true to him and whomever comes along behind him and reads it with a propensity towards believing HIM over their own actual logic system.
Sorta like this:
"This particular usage of "address" in the KMV (King Mikes Version [that is the possessive version of Mike 'there was no punctuation in the original "God-breathed" text'] ...when used in conjunction with the simple form of "answer" as in the totalityishnesseprosity in the accusitive case of "addressed what you said."
Or in this case "wrote," because you actually are not speaking, you're writing, which literally according to usage, the TYPING you're doing is called writing in most cultures. It can only be referred to as actual "speaking" when said typing/writing is used in the context of chat rooms. Seeing as the forums and the chatrooms are similar in the sense that one must read the human experssions (writings/typing) in either OR the other (one usually doesn't, although not impossible for some, more initiated ones ['OLG's] read BOTH a forum and chat at once)in order for said human expression to become an actual communication on the temporal, human, level. Therefore, IF they the reader (target of the expression) did appear to read both [as in of the same category of each] at once it would actually be a rapid succession of a more simultaneous reading, rather than an actual at ONCE reading of at least two separate, but equal [in terms of being written words] expressions of thought/ideas.
A chat "room" (not an actual room but a section, usually of a website [not an actual place, but a specific address on the internet, otherwise known as the world wide web]) provides the opportunity of a more immediate response and almost virtual, ping-pong type of actual communication, which more closely resembles "speaking," whereas the forums differ in that they are more limited to EXPRESSIONS on one or more sides of a chosen issue.)
actually means, "Yes I DID answer ALL of your questions, as I said I would." The unalterable, clearly evident truth that I did, in fact, ADDRESS, things that YOU "said" (please refer to the above parenthetical remarks) AND I did, in fact, give AN answer, which was addressed (clearly) to you...proves with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision that I DID answer ALL of your questions.
ALL of everything that I addressed in that post, clearly to you was presented to you. All of what I answered were your questions, were they not? Therefore I answered ALL of your questions.
How mean of you it is to try and point out that I didn't when in fact I did. I don't creater to invective. (In other words. I'm not answering any more of your questions because I don't like them.) Besides, I already did answer all your questions. There is no contraditiction on my part, only confusion on your part in that you actually cannot see that I did answer all of your questions.
Why are you waiting for me to answer if you don't think I didn't answer all your questions?
***************
True "PFALian logic" says Mike already answered your questions too Mr. Hamma.
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HCW
I've got another question for you Mike, or anyone else.... What about the poeple who mastered PFAL in order to teach it to The Way Corps?
How blessed were their lives?
Did you even KNOW that happened?
If so, did you know who these people are?
Do you know ANYTHING about their lives?
Have you SEEN any of the great blessings mastery of PFAL brought to them?
Have you heard a SINGLE one of their supplementary PFAL teachings where they expanded and expounded on the written AND film versions of PFAL?
Did you know there were, at one time EXPERTS on each of the PFAL series, Foundational, Intermediate, and Advanced Classes?
Did you know there were experts on each and every class in the entire series?
Did you know each of these experts taught those of US (not including YOU) advanced versions of every class in the series when we were in residence?
Do you know what these advanced versions of the class included that the "field" versions didn't?
Did you know the reason the "advanced versions" were not taught on the field?
Do you REALLY know ANYTHING?
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Ham
The concept of OLG's is interesting however..
almost like you're "marked by da mog" and forever his property from henceforth forever, whether he's dead or not. Don't think so.
Too big of a yoke for me- won't fit. I tried wearing it.
Does God really have no hands but our hands? I partially question this. If God is limited to my little hands, He's in trouble. I found "they" squeezed this concept for all it was worth- no longer just being an "ambassador"- no longer just doing the right thing- helping folks the best we could. I think we were trying to do God's job- just getting in HIS way.
It may have started out right, but it turned into a nightmare. Don't do it and God's hands are tied. I feel I was a slave to every stinking detail. I think we took ourselves FAR too seriously, and God, not enough. After a while I started asking where God really was in all of this. Finally saw it- God was in very little of it. Just "me", just "them"- what WE could do.
That's what I got out of the "mastering" concept. Read enough, work enough, and then without or despite the Almighty, we could get the kingdom of God rolling here on earth in our everyday lives.. bunch of Pharisees- me included.
I think that's why the genuine HAS to be easy. I found working it over sixty plus times NOT the easy way that it promised to be. Cripe- if believing is that hard- then God doesn't get the glory. God doesn't get the credit. Its my great believing, my great mastering.
I really am a miserable SOB. Just an honest assessment. Finally admit it. No amount of "mastering" is gonna fix it. Thank God I don't have to. So was Moses- the meekest guy on the planet at the time.. Paul. Miserable- chief of the sinners.
Can't be the flesh that's gonna pull anything off.
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socks
Mr. H, I read this in a little book I got once. I'm not a Buddhist, but these little writs and sayings were kind of cool-
"The whole purpose of religion is to facilitate love and compassion, patience, tolerance, humility, forgiveness."
I don't know that I'd take that as a complete list or anything, but the idea resonates with me. That religion, if I consider it a way to organize and practice a godly awareness and pursuit in my life, does something - 'facilitate's' things, makes them easier. Not harder. And the first things I'd list would be items like on this list - things that reflect and inspire the type of life that Jesus taught and lived.
It's so weird, but I don't think that in the rush to perfect "our walks" as Christians that we're led enough towards the intrinsic value of the quality of life that Jesus Himself taught and lived. We're taught abundance in the wrong context. There's value in love in and of itself. Humility, in and of itself. Giving, for the sake of giving, not for the sake of receiving. AND that the reward for those things are the things themselves. That the humble person has his reward in that his life is balanced and true in his humility. He is at peace, no struggle, if only for a time.
I think "the genuine HAS to be easy" is a true saying! Easy in that it is what it is. If the Truth is in us it will grow with a little space and food. We're like gardners, I think. Happy in our little gardens we've been given.
:)-->
Teachers want students. Preachers want an audience. But a godly life in any amount is it's own reward. Or can be.
"...Godliness with contentment is great gain".
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dmiller
Mr. Hammeroni said:
I thought that was worth repeating.
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Ham
Yep.. I think less and less of performance based Christianity day by day.. results always gauged by a unreasonable standard, on "their" terms.
PFAL took it to some real extremes- results guaranteed, results always available, a God that I could apparently figure out with the greatness of MY mind.
That kind of god is WAY too small, for me. I have a hard enough time understanding how the creation itself works.
Interesting.. the "pagans" had a god that they figured out- or more that one. They KNEW what their god did, or was supposed to do.. a god that'd take care of their crops, a god that would bring the sun up for them, a god that would.. fill in the blank. They "understood" their god- and understood the "deal"- and it was logical to them. They did their homage, their part- and the god would supposedly do his.
Makes PFAL look so primitive to me. In a lot of ways, I still feel like I'm a savage.
I find Ephesians rather interesting- here God and His love is revealed as being "infinitely diversified"- that was one good thing I got from the Vey. Unfortunately, though they beheld Him who is infinite, they chose to try to stuff Him back in a box.
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Nathan_Jr
Hold the farm! I found the answer!
The Word is NOT the Bible, it's NOT Jesus, and it's NOT the Christ. The Word is PFAL
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Bolshevik
Workman of the threads, 17 years later.
Should always ask Mike first.
Is that a missspell cause I have no idea what that means.
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Nathan_Jr
You don't need to know what it means. I will know what it means for you. All you've got to do is BELEEEVE it.
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Bolshevik
Mike!!!!!!
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Bolshevik
The research had been done and Dirkter Virk put the WHOLE package together.
Buy PRESENT TRUTH and OLD WINE SKINS but WHY?
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Bolshevik
I don't have my Young's concordance either. I was more into Strong’s. What about the raptor?
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Nathan_Jr
I'm reminded of an iconic scene from an absurdly wonderful movie full of iconic scenes.
Edited by Nathan_JrThis scene always makes me laugh.
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Bolshevik
Clearly stolen from LCM by da Adversary. A challenging counterfeit.
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Bolshevik
God in Christ in You. Which is lower case in great principle speaks to upper case.
But Christ returns to Christ us in this Word? Or World?
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Nathan_Jr
"What about the money you owe?"
"For WHAT!?"
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