imho, TWI always had a misconception about the dynamics of forgiveness in the church - especially a few "minor" details - such as the attitude & behavior of the offending party. Jesus shows the precursor to granting forgiveness is the offending party giving some indication that they have repented - even if it's simply coming to the offended party and just saying "i repent" [see Luke 17: 3, 4]. That is not to say one cannot forgive the offender in prayer or in one's heart - but we are short-circuiting God's process of reconciliation if we relieve the offender of their responsibility before God.
In "More Than Redemption: A Theology of Christian Counseling" Jay Adams addresses that on page 82:
"...While forgiveness must not be granted to those who do not seek it repentantly ("if he repents, forgive him" - Luke 17:3), the one who "has something against anyone" may not continue to hold it against him in his heart. Before God, in prayer, he is to forgive him (i.e., he must tell God that he will hold it against him no longer). He may not brood on it. But this forgiving in prayer (in his own heart before God) does not preclude his responsibility to pursue the matter with the offender. 28
He does this
(1) for Christ's sake,
(2) for the sake of the peace of the church,
(3) for the sake of the offender and
(4) for the purpose of reconciliation
The one who has relieved in his own mind and heart of the burden of the offense in prayer growing out of a truly forgiving attitude, will have little difficulty granting forgiveness to his brother when it is sought. And, in the meantime, he will avoid the destructive results of resentment...
~~
28. He must continue to bring up the issue to him until he repents and reconciliation takes place (Matt. 18:15ff.; Luke 17:3a).
~~
end of excerpt
~~
and there's a link below this quote to another Jay Adams' article that addresses among other things the idea of a self-centered forgiveness - that benefits only the one who grants the forgiveness and short-circuits the godly design of the biblical process of forgiveness:
Forgiveness must be extended to all who say they repent—even if the offense has been repeated (Cf. Luke 17:3). But it is only to be granted to those who confess wrong doing, claim to be repentant, and ask forgiveness (Prov. 28:13). In Mk. 11:25, Jesus tells you to forgive those who wronged you when you pray, thereby avoiding bitterness and resentment (Eph. 4:32). But, that is different from granting the wrongdoer forgiveness. You do that only when he repents.
Forgiveness of others must reflect God's forgiveness; He forgave you when you repented.
Some unthinking Christians advise forgiving another whether or not he confesses sin. But they misunderstood forgiveness. They urge this to benefit the one who forgives. Yet, it was for your benefit that God forgave you. Their self-centered concept of forgiveness is unbiblical. God did not forgive you until you repented, admitted you were a sinner, and believed. Indeed, even now, when God dispenses parental forgiveness, He says, "…if you don't forgive men, then your Father won't forgive your transgressions" (Matt. 6:15).
Some think when Christ prayed from the cross, "Father, forgive them," He forgave apart from repentance. But Jesus granted no one forgiveness by those words. He was asking God to forgive. Did God answer? Yes. On the day of Pentecost, thousands of those same people were converted, and their sins were forgiven. But, that did not happen apart from the means. Peter called on them to repent and believe in order to receive forgiveness (Cf. Acts 2:38).
Geisha779: I have tried to address Jesus Christ's most monumental statement of forgiving: "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do" and that in my opinion Jesus Christ is speaking of all people who have ever lived and who ever will live and maybe dogs and cats who sin too. I'm not real sure about that one though, even though I know dogs and cats and pet parakeets will be in heaven and therefore they must have chosen to be good here on earth, which means they must have had the opportunity to sin and therefore Jesus took their sins, too. Please don't try to take that one to the bank. It sounds good but could be just a joke.
But Jesus Christ did take all our sins and griefs to the cross. He suffered and died for all of us.
In my opinion, forgiveness about the forgiver. God in Jesus Christ made a great ocean of forgiveness available. And when we forgive, we are in agreement with God that that ocean of forgiveness is available to them.
When I forgive, I am not condoning belittling anyone's wickedness, I am simply agreeing with God that the ocean of forgiveness God has given us in Jesus Christ is theirs for the asking. I am not standing in the way. I am not holding any grudges against any because I need to stay in that ocean of forgiveness myself, and from there I can say anyone else is welcome to dive in. Because I am surrounded in this ocean of forgiveness by God's forgiveness, I can only remain in here as I am forgiving.
Additionally, for me to judge anyone who I think is more vile than me is a joke because the Good Lord constantly affirms to me that without Him I am a wretch like the song says. I've got this arthritis and without the Good Lord's help and strength and support and everything, I can't even walk up a flight of stairs. I am frequently reminded of the story of the mote and the beam when I get to looking at someone else with a supercilious stare. I have two aunts who had alzheimer's and figure if I can still add two and two I'm in the category of "grace abounding." I know that I cannot go two steps or think two things without the help of the Lord, therefore I just got to have Him there, and it takes forgiveness to keep in His presence. It's worth it to me.
Mark 11:25,26:
25And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
26But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 7:1-5
1Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? <A name=5>
5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Luke 6:37
37Judgenot, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Kit,
What are you talking about? I think I am being reproved for something, yet, I am being reproved by someone who it seems has not taken the time to really examine what I am saying. You have not addressed one thing I have said from scripture. What is TWI or who is Victor Paul Wierwille to you? What does Jesus say about false teachers, what does Paul say , what is said in Jude and what does 2 Peter say.....along with Titus, Timothy, Romans, 2 John, Galatians, Colossians, Thessalonians and basically the entire Old Testament in dealing with false prophets?
And we must make sure that part of our own judgment does not include being able to tell a false Apostle from a true one and deal with them according to what scripture tells us. Revelation does not speak of the great white throne of guessing games?
Is your idea of Christianity one where someone can blaspheme God, deny the Holy Spirit and deny the very Lord who bought us, yet use God as a reason for moral debauchery? Mine is not. I love God far too dearly to ignore this and continue on in some half-baked understanding of scripture. I also love ex-way people far too much to come on here and espouse something that is not true. My heart is that those who seek Christ, but have been deceived by a man who handled the scriptures so deceitfully, are delivered from his false teaching and brought out of the cult mindset and into Christianity. The scriptures tell us that false teachers teach what? Doctrines of devils. Can it get any plainer for you. Is that a bit of judging or is that telling the truth?
VP was not a brother in Christ and we can understand that IF we understand the crystal clear warnings in scripture that articulate WHAT to look for in a person's life which will expose them for WHO they truly are, that would be their actions and their immorality. God does not reserve his worst judgment for Christians.
Once we understand this, we can begin to examine the doctrines and twisted understanding we were exposed to in the PFAL series and myriad of other heresy affirming classes and programs TWI has to offer. Not to mention the psychological manipulation and the subtle persuasion that messed with our heads and convinced us of things against our will and normal inclinations. I went into TWI a fairly moral person....I came out cussing like a sailor and having the compassion and understanding of a gnat. I put a cheap value on life because of their teachings.... I justified my sin and I assumed I was a Christian when in reality my heart and understanding was opposed to God and the scriptures. I had an aberrant understanding from my sojourn in TWI under the tutelage of a master manipulator. I am not alone.
Knowing that VP is not a brother who erred, I have to wonder why it is you are telling me about pulling the beam out of my own eye before judging a brother. Advice that you might take until you really look at what it is I am trying to articulate to you from scripture.
False teachers are self-condemned. I am not condemning them.They are already judged. I am not judging them. Paul called them servants of Satan. Is that judging because Paul didn't understand he too was a sinner?? He said he was chief among sinners. Jesus told us to beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. Well Kit, if they are disguised as angels of light, which scripture also points out....how are we to beware? If we forgive them without their repentance what are we saying about God? Should we let others keep on following them without warning? That is really loving.
No it is not, here is what Jesus said "Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment." Here Jesus is telling us to judge. To judge rightly.
John, the Apostle known for being the most tender said, "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world" Test them? Test them how? By forgiving them? Scripture gives us the benchmarks by which to test. Their morality and actions. John said, don't even let them in your house, don't feed them or give them drink. Didn't Jesus say he judges us by what we do for strangers? When I was hungry you gave me food? John knew what Jesus said. There is a bit of a disconnect there unless.....there is something in between we need to beware of!
Kit, you have no idea of my life or what I do. What I have been doing because of forgiveness. A few days ago, I was riding in an ambulance with someone who I had forgiven and am now serving. His BP was 70/34 and I made sure that if he was going to die...I was going to be with him. I made sure he would not die alone. He is going to die soon. I have been there almost everyday serving and ministering to him. I had him put in an extended care facility because he was unsafe to live alone. In the same facility his mother is recouping from an emergency surgery and life threatening infection. I serve her too...his Aunt is down the hall with dementia. I serve her too and yesterday, I was kneeling at her feet wiping the tears from her eyes as she remembered she was a widow and her husband was gone.
It is a privilege to serve and for the Lord to call us to good works. THESE are the true blessings of God. My service now is a direct result of my unconditional forgiveness to someone who wounded me deeply. I GET IT! I have to live it....that is what God calls me to.
But, these are the things and understanding that VP robbed people of.....he stole them from people by twisting God's word and putting forth an ugly understanding of love, giving, and charity. He used this ugly understanding to abuse people in the name of God. Yet you espouse forgiveness for him when the scriptures do not? How about a little awareness of what the scriptures are actually telling us?
The "joke" is not very funny if we don't judge. I actually do believe in eternal life. I really do believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. So, to me, none of it is a joke. I really do believe people have died unsaved and were convinced by VP that they were. It isn't a joke to judge rightly.
Johniam....get a good study bible. I recommend The Apologetics Bible...it deals specifically with twisted scripture and directly with TWI.
To me this issue presents somewhat of an ethical or moral dilemma. It is not solvable via equation like a mathmatics equation.
What are the elements?
Forgiveness
1. We need to forgive others as we have been forgiven.
2. We need to not allow bitterness towards others have a place to grow in our hearts.
Mercy
1. Without mercy none of us would be alive or have a relationship with God.
2. We can show others God's mercy as we have opportunity or power.
Justice
1. God is a just God
2. Those who break God's laws with impunity and unrepentence will be brought to justice by the just God.
3. Justice in this life can be healing for victims.
Duty
1. There are wolves in sheep's clothing. There is a duty to warn others of them.
2. There is a duty to witness our own personal deliverance which includes this topic.
To me this encapsulates all of the elements I have encountered around the topic of forgiveness. It is very easy to get caught up in one or more of these 4 topics and focus on that to the exclusion of the others. However, life isn't clean. I propose that God has all of these things so that we can walk balanced through our thoughts and experiences related to them.
Kit, I have loved your contributions to this thread. You have such a gentle manner in person, and it flows over into your written words.
Geisha, I like and respect you, and I have no doubt that you do many good works. But why are you addressing Kit in what seems to me like a very harsh tone? Seems to me you're assuming she hasn't considered your words, but perhaps she has already considered them, disagrees, and chooses not to debate but rather to simply restate her view. I don't believe she's under any obligation to counter your points one by one. This isn't the debate club, it's a conversation among people of differing opinions.
The rest of this post is directed to no one in particular...just some random thoughts on the topic of forgiveness.
I do not believe I must require someone to ask for my forgiveness (which I've often heard is a prerequisite for forgiveness). God has that right; I am not God and therefore do not assume I share that right.
On a human-to-human level, forgiving is something I believe God instructs us to do. It doesn't get anyone off the hook with Him, but it does remove others' hooks from us. It doesn't restore trust or credibility in the wrongdoer. It lifts a burden from the wronged.
At the risk of sounding repetitious (although I think it bears repeating), no one here is God (well, unless He's reading this thread :)) Who are we to judge? We can judge actions, sure. I can determine whether an action is righteous or sinful. But to judge a person as worthy of heaven or hell? No way. That's definitely God's job. He sees hearts. He knows the "backstory" behind everything. He is much better equipped to judge. It's His job, not mine, for which I am extremely grateful.
Kit, I have loved your contributions to this thread. You have such a gentle manner in person, and it flows over into your written words.
Geisha, I like and respect you, and I have no doubt that you do many good works. But why are you addressing Kit in what seems to me like a very harsh tone? Seems to me you're assuming she hasn't considered your words, but perhaps she has already considered them, disagrees, and chooses not to debate but rather to simply restate her view. I don't believe she's under any obligation to counter your points one by one. This isn't the debate club, it's a conversation among people of differing opinions.
The rest of this post is directed to no one in particular...just some random thoughts on the topic of forgiveness.
I do not believe I must require someone to ask for my forgiveness (which I've often heard is a prerequisite for forgiveness). God has that right; I am not God and therefore do not assume I share that right.
On a human-to-human level, forgiving is something I believe God instructs us to do. It doesn't get anyone off the hook with Him, but it does remove others' hooks from us. It doesn't restore trust or credibility in the wrongdoer. It lifts a burden from the wronged.
At the risk of sounding repetitious (although I think it bears repeating), no one here is God (well, unless He's reading this thread :)) Who are we to judge? We can judge actions, sure. I can determine whether an action is righteous or sinful. But to judge a person as worthy of heaven or hell? No way. That's definitely God's job. He sees hearts. He knows the "backstory" behind everything. He is much better equipped to judge. It's His job, not mine, for which I am extremely grateful.
Linda, I like you too.....but, my tone was firm not harsh. I went back and fixed it so it reflected that more clearly. I understood what Kit said the first time she posted. I explained to her what I understand from scripture and have just done so again.
I am very aware that Jesus' sacrifice was big enough for the sins of the world. I also understand how precious the Lord is in the Father's sight. More so than I can ever articulate with words. Those are waters that run very deep. The Lord is very precious to me too and our price is not cheap. That is why God requires something from us for forgiveness. To place our faith in the Lord. There is no other way to forgiveness if you believe the scriptures and have acknowledged the Lord in your life. We are not first in God's sight . Jesus is. We are not the center of God's universe. Jesus is. It is He who holds all things together. God will honor His Son and requires us to do the same.
Knowing and believing this, one would think we would understand a few things. That God is not going to bypass the Son to forgive unrepentant sinners without them first acknowledging their need for forgiveness......repenting(being sorry and changing) acknowledging the Son, kneeling before Him as Lord, and trusting Him as Savior. A direct result of this transformation of heart is going to be evident in ones life. I don't need a back story. I can listen to what they tell me about Jesus Christ.
And again I have to ask about this forgiving for oneself.....is that loving? It seems rather self-serving to me. If we are to forgive as God does....then we need to understand how God does forgive. Ephesians commands us to forgive as God does. Jesus articulated exactly how God forgives when He said if your brother offends rebuke him, if he repents forgive him. Jesus is the rebuke to sinners.
God does not forgive them their sins against Him without repentance. ALL sin is against God. But, we should do this for ourselves? So, we can move on? We can move on anyway and calling evil .... evil....is not bitterness. God does it all the time.
I don't hold bitterness against VP or TWI and I even pray for LCM. But, I don't forgive them for the evil they continue to do. I know good from bad. Right from wrong. I can't close my eyes and say....they keep doing it, but I keep forgiving them. Maybe some of it might sink in if they hear it?? That would be a good thing.
We are to reflect God's sea of forgiveness....okay, how will God forgive people who want to jump on in? Will they jump in without acknowledging they are wrong? Will they jump in without being sorry? Will they jump in without honoring Jesus Christ?
As for God judging. He does and he thought it pertinent enough to share it. Why would He do this? One thought springs to mind. So we are not ignorant and follow some blind guide into a pit. We don't have the power to condemn another, but we do have the ability to condemn ourselves. God is so gracious in warning and if we trust Him, we take Him seriously. If we know Him, we understand He is not pliable. He is unchanging. He warns us to stay away from them and let Him deal with them.
yet, He DOES say it is our job to judge rightly...to be aware....to warn others. He has shared His judgment with us for our understanding. He has given us the tools so that we are not tricked. He does hold us accountable.
quote: Based on "principles" that allowed for any flight of fancy to become his latest revelation from god he developed a history of activity that would rival a bee's flight pattern for twists and turns. What made sense to him was what he made make sense to himself that week.
One benign example that comes to mind is relative to today's date. In the late 80s or early 90s, not sure, March 4th of that year fell on a Sunday. LCM began the teaching by saying that as a child he had a subscription to Boy's Life magazine and that in its joke section one time one of the jokes was...what calendar date is also a command? Answer: march forth. So he titled that night's teaching 'March forth'.
This reminds me of Zap comix: the comic that plugs you in! Shows a picture of a guy with an outlet on the top of his head and a plug coming out of the sky entering that outlet and his whole face shining. R. Crumb's work, I believe. March forth is a dime a dozen example of "TWI: the Christianity that plugs you in"! I suppose there are many ways one could spin a teaching title out of thin air and repeat the same old same old...stay committed, keep your mind tattooed to the word, etc. But VP would NEVER have resorted to that. Drambuie or not, he took some things about teaching protocol very seriously.
But VP would NEVER have resorted to that. Drambuie or not, he took some things about teaching protocol very seriously.
Yeah, I have to actually agree with you.
A poster here once described it as "VPW's plagiarism that he so skillfully presented via rhetorical grandiloquence of his trance-inducing homiletics."
On the plus side....cult indoctrination is not without its benefits.....it can produce disassociation, anxiety, depression, suicidal tendencies, PSTD . . ..
LCM became a first rate horse's as s over the years and received full certification after taking over for VPW. Comparing his M.O. with anything else is like comparing the Three Stooges act to a football's team playbook
now that I've half a chance to think about it..
sometime *it* worked.. that is the three stooges moves on the field..
in "the real world".. that kind of incompetence would work, only once..
and after one "victory".. the "enemy" really has figured you out..
Geisha779 - My opinion is that forgiveness is not about vp or lcm and what they have done. Acts 7:60 shows Stephen, after he has seen heaven opened and the Lord Jesus Standing at the right hand of God, he forgives those who stoned him to death: "...And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."
Forgiveness is the way of the Lord and the way to open heavens and the presence of the Lord for us. I have read much of Christian martyrs and their stories are awesome records of grudgeless hearts before the Lord.
I have a poster in the kitchen from "Voice of the Martyrs" (persecution.com) that says "It didn't end at the Coliseum. Christians still die."
DC Talk, a rapping happy music group who I heard during a tour with Billy Graham (circa 1995), has issued two volumes of "Jesus Freaks" stories of 20th Century martyrs. And of course Foxe's Book of Martyrs is such precious reading. These things are heartbreaking reminders of Jesus' words that the devil hates us. The amazing thing to me when reading the stories of those men and women who have suffered and died in service of the Lord, and their families who carry the same story of the Lord forward, is the grudgeless heart these people show. Jesus' "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do" and Stephen's, "Lay not this sin to their charge" are echoed in the lives of those who die daily (that's what martyrs have done) because they love the Lord with their whole heart soul mind and strength.
Pope Paul II and Ronald Reagan forgave the men who tried to assassinate them and Martin Luther King's family has forgiven the man who assassinated him. That's what Christians do.
Just a few days ago there was the heartbreaking story of Shahbaz Bhatti and Iraqui Christian who was assassinated. At persecution.com and countless other places are stories of the persecution, torture, and murder of Christians, and nary a word of revenge, spite, bitterness, or any grudging from these people who have had acid poured on them, been hacked to pieces with dirty axes, gruesome horrible unspeakable things people endure because they are (or were) people who had heard of the Lord Jesus. Shahbaz Bhatti, when he had visited to New York ran up to a man on the street with a cross on his neck and gave him a great big hug and said, "Brother, in my country you would be killed for wearing that." Right now in USA people do not often endure that obvious persecution and we have the freedom to offer our prayers and support to defend the rights of others to worship and alleviate a small portion of suffering endured. We are bound with them who suffer (Hebrews 13:3). Being reminded of these things ensures that the wickedness of vp et al is viewed in perspective and reminds me how important it is that I retain my relationship with the Lord so my prayers for others are not hindered, which is my primary vocation right now.
Additionally, I find that I can grieve more freely for those who suffer when there is no bitterness or grudging in my heart. I believe God is like that. He grieves deeply to see people suffer. Our grief is then for the person who suffers only, and family and loved ones. Wicked people are not part of our lives. They are out in the cold by choice.
Scripture tells us we are to be as wise as serpents and as tender as doves.....which is a two fold proposition. I am sure I can get better at both. I hope the following explains my thinking to you clearly and shows you we do have some common ground. I am not going to keep discussing this though....there is a disconnect between us somewhere. Hopefully you can at the very least, begin to consider where I am coming from.
I worked with VOM (Voice of the Martyrs)for a few years and I still write letters for them. If you don't already and would like to do something, that is a nice way to reach out to the persecuted church. VOM has a list of prisoners and the addresses of where they are being held. VOM even has a translator available on their site and you can choose the encouragement you would like to share. It only takes a few minutes and a few cents for stamps.
My son knows Toby Mac who was with DC talk....I have met him, he is a very sweet and down to earth guy who loves the Lord. You are not telling me anything I don't already know or have not already been emotionally invested in for some time now. The persecuted church has been crucial in my deliverance from the TWI mindset. It is pretty intense to be involved in serving the persecuted church, it changes ones perspective and it is a real faith building yet humbling endeavor. I encourage anyone to check out VOM.The faith the Lord gives to those who are so brutally persecuted is awe inspiring....isn't it?
What did we learn from VP about martyrs? Do you remember? What did he say about those called to that kind of suffering? Did he say they were there because they didn't have ENOUGH "believing" or faith? In essence that it was their own fault? I remember him speaking disparagingly about martyrs. While in TWI I never once prayed for them or gathered items to send them in an Action Pack....or donated a bible to get to them. I thought they were disobedient to "the word" disobedient to God and that is how they got caught and killed. Besides, they believed the trinity and therefor were idolaters anyway. I learned to think that way in TWI. I learned to think that way from VP, a man who claimed to speak the real and right truth about God's word.
I told you. Those who persecute and kill Christians kill the body, a false teacher steals the soul. People who truly follow Christ do not themselves persecute the brethren.Those who are outside the church and have evil motives do. Do you understand what I am telling you? VP lead us into a form of persecution against Christians, against God's most precious of people, martyrs....and he did this in God's own name using God's own words. That is not just an error, that is evil. He lead us right out of the church and into persecuting all other Christians by espousing a false and twisted understanding of faith. There are many examples for us to examine which illustrate that we were lead away from the church and away from Jesus and away from salvation in the Lord, and away from Christianity. Consider, it took the Lord blinding Paul and knocking him to the ground to get his attention. That was mercy, but, VP, was never was knocked to the ground by the Lord....that is judgment. God has both mercy and judgment and it is his prerogative to whom He will show mercy. We don't choose for God, we pay attention.
Now, just consider with me for a moment. . . . please...so you understand what it is I have been going on and on about......if we were lead away from the church, away from God, away from a pure understanding of Christ, what is it we were lead to? We embraced something right? We had a confession of faith. Sadly, we embraced something in which we could easily believe that martyrs didn't have faith. We embraced something in which we could so easily disparage ALL other Christians. We embraced something that blithely allowed us to call God's true servants idolaters. We embraced something that excused sexual sins... which are among God's greatest "pet peeves". We embraced something which discouraged holiness, and we embraced something which allowed us to treat others with disdain, in some cases abandon our families, our friends, our futures, that is at best. At worst we embraced something that allowed us to abandon Jesus Christ and replace Him with a set of principles and laws which we thought would save us.
Kit, VP was not a Christian. He was opposed to Christians and he boldly opposed Christ. I am not judging VP by consigning him to hell. He claimed to be thee teacher of the true scriptural understanding not known since the 1st Century. He claimed God told him he would be. I am judging what he taught me, what he did, what he believed and what he taught people about Jesus Christ. I am judging where he lead me. I am judging what I am supposed to be judging according to the scriptures. I am doing this so that I can keep myself from false teachers. They are bad people. I do this as God instructs so that I can avoid them. I am doing this so that I can warn others. God has already articulated His judgment for such men in scripture, men and woman who use Him to lead people away from Him. He has clearly articulated, graphically articulated, and unchangingly articulated their judgment. I better judge their actions, their faith and what it is in, their words and their deeds, so I don't follow them into their judgment. I am held accountable.
Again, and for the last time. We are warned to leave them alone, avoid them, and to let God deal with them. We should not be in a place where we are trying to forgive them and when God delivers us, and He is able to deliver any of us, then we can have praise in our hearts for God and realize the magnitude of His mercy in rescuing us. He is glorified in that .... He is not glorified in our trying to do it for ourselves. We don't go where we are warned to stay away...there is a reason for that. Be aware of who they are, leave them alone, avoid such men, praise God He is so merciful....and leave it to Him to deal with the rest.
i have taken to the way oprah winfrey was taught about forgiveness. "forgiveness is letting go of the hope that the past could have been anything different than what it was."
Geisha779. Thanks. That is so cool about knowing the DC Talk guy and that he is real. I have only seen them on the stage or in print. And I also send those letters out and love doing that. I agree with you on the wickedness of vp et al. That speaking disparagingly of martyrs (as though they didn't have the "believing" to avoid the "fiery dart") never set right with me. I have always loved Christians found in other groups and am so thankful for this Greasespot Cafe (and Transchat(?) and WayDale) for helping sever those bonds of affliction with that group so I could go back to enjoying going to "church" with them and reading the stuff they like to read. Thanks, again.
I am not and was not trying to tell you something you don't know (in the twi fashion of bombarding you with my version of the one-and-only-truth) but merely stating where I was coming from. My opinion, which we are both allowed to have here in the Cafe. This very feature is so precious to me because I was never freely allowed opinions during those 20+ twi years, and afterwards also I continue to couch many of my thoughts (guess what, I am a Catholic now and no Catholic wants to hear that I believe that Joseph abandoned Mary and the kids and that another grief Jesus endured was growing up without a father in the house).
Anyway, I just love coming to this Greasespot Cafe because I can freely speak my mind. Love it:)
which is why i like how oprah was shown about forgiveness, because even god can't change the past, and that includes me and my past. i used to rank on myself real bad for fighting so much with my family and it seemed like i was always itching for a fight and it seemed like maybe i was the abuser and maybe everybody was right about me having devil spirit problems or something, but then my current therapist explained to me that if i was defending myself or reacting to the insanity then that wasn't the same as being an abuser and it certainly wasn't the same as having devil spirits or anything like that at all, but that it was survival. i just had to learn that i was really and truly out of the situations and didn't have to live like that any longer. that was hard!
"Unforgiveness is like spiritual junk food - temporarily satisfying but really harmful in the long run." LOVE, LOVE, love this!!
Love this topic, bowtwi. Many good insights.
My mother was the most forgiving person I have ever known. When she passed away 6 weeks ago, many of my sibling's ex-spouses came to the visitation and the funeral. Several told me stories of how my mother was so kind to them after their divorces from my siblings. She would always admonish her children to 'overlook' things and go on with life. She didn't tell us to forget them, just overlook them.
I have a brother who has held grudges against many in our family and others. He is so miserable. It is affecting his physical health now. He will not let go of the past. He ended up in ER the other nite but we are not supposed to even know about it. He doesn't want our help or our prayers.
As for me, I'm gonna hold on to my precious mother's words: OVERLOOK IT!!
Thanks especially act2. I was nudged by the Lord to send a letter to my brother I have had a lot of troubles with, and He was able to wash away more unforgiveness by that.
Unforgiveness comes from standing in a lofty position looking down with supercilious stare at those much less terrific than myself, which is such a joke. When I wrote the letter to my brother the Lord was able to bring me down a few notches, and truly I was beginning to suffer from loss of holy spirit thinking caused by oxygen loss up there in the rarefied atmosphere of perfectness. Thanks, again.
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bowtwi
This might seem more appropriate for the Doctrinal forum, but please bear with my preference to see it here. I believe that The Way screwed up hugely where forgiveness is concerned and many of us hav
Kit Sober
Received an email today with the lesson of the Honey Bee as a comparison to anger and how anger destroys the Honey Bee. The honey bee (or any bee I think) in his wrath sticks his stinger into a perso
Oakspear
In case anyone doesn't already know, I am neither a Christian nor an atheist, but I do have some opinions about forgiveness. For day-to-day small stuff, I find that it's not worth the effort to thin
T-Bone
imho, TWI always had a misconception about the dynamics of forgiveness in the church - especially a few "minor" details - such as the attitude & behavior of the offending party. Jesus shows the precursor to granting forgiveness is the offending party giving some indication that they have repented - even if it's simply coming to the offended party and just saying "i repent" [see Luke 17: 3, 4]. That is not to say one cannot forgive the offender in prayer or in one's heart - but we are short-circuiting God's process of reconciliation if we relieve the offender of their responsibility before God.
In "More Than Redemption: A Theology of Christian Counseling" Jay Adams addresses that on page 82:
"...While forgiveness must not be granted to those who do not seek it repentantly ("if he repents, forgive him" - Luke 17:3), the one who "has something against anyone" may not continue to hold it against him in his heart. Before God, in prayer, he is to forgive him (i.e., he must tell God that he will hold it against him no longer). He may not brood on it. But this forgiving in prayer (in his own heart before God) does not preclude his responsibility to pursue the matter with the offender. 28
He does this
(1) for Christ's sake,
(2) for the sake of the peace of the church,
(3) for the sake of the offender and
(4) for the purpose of reconciliation
The one who has relieved in his own mind and heart of the burden of the offense in prayer growing out of a truly forgiving attitude, will have little difficulty granting forgiveness to his brother when it is sought. And, in the meantime, he will avoid the destructive results of resentment...
~~
28. He must continue to bring up the issue to him until he repents and reconciliation takes place (Matt. 18:15ff.; Luke 17:3a).
~~
end of excerpt
~~
and there's a link below this quote to another Jay Adams' article that addresses among other things the idea of a self-centered forgiveness - that benefits only the one who grants the forgiveness and short-circuits the godly design of the biblical process of forgiveness:
http://graceinthetri...ing-others.html
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geisha779
Kit,
What are you talking about? I think I am being reproved for something, yet, I am being reproved by someone who it seems has not taken the time to really examine what I am saying. You have not addressed one thing I have said from scripture. What is TWI or who is Victor Paul Wierwille to you? What does Jesus say about false teachers, what does Paul say , what is said in Jude and what does 2 Peter say.....along with Titus, Timothy, Romans, 2 John, Galatians, Colossians, Thessalonians and basically the entire Old Testament in dealing with false prophets?
And we must make sure that part of our own judgment does not include being able to tell a false Apostle from a true one and deal with them according to what scripture tells us. Revelation does not speak of the great white throne of guessing games?
Is your idea of Christianity one where someone can blaspheme God, deny the Holy Spirit and deny the very Lord who bought us, yet use God as a reason for moral debauchery? Mine is not. I love God far too dearly to ignore this and continue on in some half-baked understanding of scripture. I also love ex-way people far too much to come on here and espouse something that is not true. My heart is that those who seek Christ, but have been deceived by a man who handled the scriptures so deceitfully, are delivered from his false teaching and brought out of the cult mindset and into Christianity. The scriptures tell us that false teachers teach what? Doctrines of devils. Can it get any plainer for you. Is that a bit of judging or is that telling the truth?
VP was not a brother in Christ and we can understand that IF we understand the crystal clear warnings in scripture that articulate WHAT to look for in a person's life which will expose them for WHO they truly are, that would be their actions and their immorality. God does not reserve his worst judgment for Christians.
Once we understand this, we can begin to examine the doctrines and twisted understanding we were exposed to in the PFAL series and myriad of other heresy affirming classes and programs TWI has to offer. Not to mention the psychological manipulation and the subtle persuasion that messed with our heads and convinced us of things against our will and normal inclinations. I went into TWI a fairly moral person....I came out cussing like a sailor and having the compassion and understanding of a gnat. I put a cheap value on life because of their teachings.... I justified my sin and I assumed I was a Christian when in reality my heart and understanding was opposed to God and the scriptures. I had an aberrant understanding from my sojourn in TWI under the tutelage of a master manipulator. I am not alone.
Knowing that VP is not a brother who erred, I have to wonder why it is you are telling me about pulling the beam out of my own eye before judging a brother. Advice that you might take until you really look at what it is I am trying to articulate to you from scripture.
False teachers are self-condemned. I am not condemning them. They are already judged. I am not judging them. Paul called them servants of Satan. Is that judging because Paul didn't understand he too was a sinner?? He said he was chief among sinners. Jesus told us to beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. Well Kit, if they are disguised as angels of light, which scripture also points out....how are we to beware? If we forgive them without their repentance what are we saying about God? Should we let others keep on following them without warning? That is really loving.
No it is not, here is what Jesus said "Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment." Here Jesus is telling us to judge. To judge rightly.
John, the Apostle known for being the most tender said, "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world" Test them? Test them how? By forgiving them? Scripture gives us the benchmarks by which to test. Their morality and actions. John said, don't even let them in your house, don't feed them or give them drink. Didn't Jesus say he judges us by what we do for strangers? When I was hungry you gave me food? John knew what Jesus said. There is a bit of a disconnect there unless.....there is something in between we need to beware of!
Kit, you have no idea of my life or what I do. What I have been doing because of forgiveness. A few days ago, I was riding in an ambulance with someone who I had forgiven and am now serving. His BP was 70/34 and I made sure that if he was going to die...I was going to be with him. I made sure he would not die alone. He is going to die soon. I have been there almost everyday serving and ministering to him. I had him put in an extended care facility because he was unsafe to live alone. In the same facility his mother is recouping from an emergency surgery and life threatening infection. I serve her too...his Aunt is down the hall with dementia. I serve her too and yesterday, I was kneeling at her feet wiping the tears from her eyes as she remembered she was a widow and her husband was gone.
It is a privilege to serve and for the Lord to call us to good works. THESE are the true blessings of God. My service now is a direct result of my unconditional forgiveness to someone who wounded me deeply. I GET IT! I have to live it....that is what God calls me to.
But, these are the things and understanding that VP robbed people of.....he stole them from people by twisting God's word and putting forth an ugly understanding of love, giving, and charity. He used this ugly understanding to abuse people in the name of God. Yet you espouse forgiveness for him when the scriptures do not? How about a little awareness of what the scriptures are actually telling us?
The "joke" is not very funny if we don't judge. I actually do believe in eternal life. I really do believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. So, to me, none of it is a joke. I really do believe people have died unsaved and were convinced by VP that they were. It isn't a joke to judge rightly.
Johniam....get a good study bible. I recommend The Apologetics Bible...it deals specifically with twisted scripture and directly with TWI.
Edited so my tone is not so harsh.
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chockfull
To me this issue presents somewhat of an ethical or moral dilemma. It is not solvable via equation like a mathmatics equation.
What are the elements?
Forgiveness
1. We need to forgive others as we have been forgiven.
2. We need to not allow bitterness towards others have a place to grow in our hearts.
Mercy
1. Without mercy none of us would be alive or have a relationship with God.
2. We can show others God's mercy as we have opportunity or power.
Justice
1. God is a just God
2. Those who break God's laws with impunity and unrepentence will be brought to justice by the just God.
3. Justice in this life can be healing for victims.
Duty
1. There are wolves in sheep's clothing. There is a duty to warn others of them.
2. There is a duty to witness our own personal deliverance which includes this topic.
To me this encapsulates all of the elements I have encountered around the topic of forgiveness. It is very easy to get caught up in one or more of these 4 topics and focus on that to the exclusion of the others. However, life isn't clean. I propose that God has all of these things so that we can walk balanced through our thoughts and experiences related to them.
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Linda Z
Kit, I have loved your contributions to this thread. You have such a gentle manner in person, and it flows over into your written words.
Geisha, I like and respect you, and I have no doubt that you do many good works. But why are you addressing Kit in what seems to me like a very harsh tone? Seems to me you're assuming she hasn't considered your words, but perhaps she has already considered them, disagrees, and chooses not to debate but rather to simply restate her view. I don't believe she's under any obligation to counter your points one by one. This isn't the debate club, it's a conversation among people of differing opinions.
The rest of this post is directed to no one in particular...just some random thoughts on the topic of forgiveness.
I do not believe I must require someone to ask for my forgiveness (which I've often heard is a prerequisite for forgiveness). God has that right; I am not God and therefore do not assume I share that right.
On a human-to-human level, forgiving is something I believe God instructs us to do. It doesn't get anyone off the hook with Him, but it does remove others' hooks from us. It doesn't restore trust or credibility in the wrongdoer. It lifts a burden from the wronged.
At the risk of sounding repetitious (although I think it bears repeating), no one here is God (well, unless He's reading this thread :)) Who are we to judge? We can judge actions, sure. I can determine whether an action is righteous or sinful. But to judge a person as worthy of heaven or hell? No way. That's definitely God's job. He sees hearts. He knows the "backstory" behind everything. He is much better equipped to judge. It's His job, not mine, for which I am extremely grateful.
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geisha779
Linda, I like you too.....but, my tone was firm not harsh. I went back and fixed it so it reflected that more clearly. I understood what Kit said the first time she posted. I explained to her what I understand from scripture and have just done so again.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am very aware that Jesus' sacrifice was big enough for the sins of the world. I also understand how precious the Lord is in the Father's sight. More so than I can ever articulate with words. Those are waters that run very deep. The Lord is very precious to me too and our price is not cheap. That is why God requires something from us for forgiveness. To place our faith in the Lord. There is no other way to forgiveness if you believe the scriptures and have acknowledged the Lord in your life. We are not first in God's sight . Jesus is. We are not the center of God's universe. Jesus is. It is He who holds all things together. God will honor His Son and requires us to do the same.
Knowing and believing this, one would think we would understand a few things. That God is not going to bypass the Son to forgive unrepentant sinners without them first acknowledging their need for forgiveness......repenting(being sorry and changing) acknowledging the Son, kneeling before Him as Lord, and trusting Him as Savior. A direct result of this transformation of heart is going to be evident in ones life. I don't need a back story. I can listen to what they tell me about Jesus Christ.
And again I have to ask about this forgiving for oneself.....is that loving? It seems rather self-serving to me. If we are to forgive as God does....then we need to understand how God does forgive. Ephesians commands us to forgive as God does. Jesus articulated exactly how God forgives when He said if your brother offends rebuke him, if he repents forgive him. Jesus is the rebuke to sinners.
God does not forgive them their sins against Him without repentance. ALL sin is against God. But, we should do this for ourselves? So, we can move on? We can move on anyway and calling evil .... evil....is not bitterness. God does it all the time.
I don't hold bitterness against VP or TWI and I even pray for LCM. But, I don't forgive them for the evil they continue to do. I know good from bad. Right from wrong. I can't close my eyes and say....they keep doing it, but I keep forgiving them. Maybe some of it might sink in if they hear it?? That would be a good thing.
We are to reflect God's sea of forgiveness....okay, how will God forgive people who want to jump on in? Will they jump in without acknowledging they are wrong? Will they jump in without being sorry? Will they jump in without honoring Jesus Christ?
As for God judging. He does and he thought it pertinent enough to share it. Why would He do this? One thought springs to mind. So we are not ignorant and follow some blind guide into a pit. We don't have the power to condemn another, but we do have the ability to condemn ourselves. God is so gracious in warning and if we trust Him, we take Him seriously. If we know Him, we understand He is not pliable. He is unchanging. He warns us to stay away from them and let Him deal with them.
yet, He DOES say it is our job to judge rightly...to be aware....to warn others. He has shared His judgment with us for our understanding. He has given us the tools so that we are not tricked. He does hold us accountable.
Edited to be less harsh.
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So_crates
I think that it is a solvable equasion is what lies at the crux of most of the conflict people are experiencing.
Remember, Saint Vic taught us the Word worked with a "mathamatical exactness and a scientific percision" (whatever that is).
His teachings are loaded with psudo-formulas and results:
1. Giving equals recieving
I doubt he ment G=R, but I thing its more If you G, then you R.
2. Believing equals recieving
Again not B=R but If you B then you R
3. Love is giving
A little more obvious, if you L then you G.
How was the law of believing presened to us in PFAL? Equation by analogy. He used a camera: Exposure, Light, Time, Results.
Or If E and L and T then R.
Getting born again: confession with your mouth, believe in your heart. If CM and BH then BA
Being born again, speaking in tongues. If BA, then SIT.
Or the three D's of Dulos doing: Decision, Desire, Details, Deliverence. Again, if D1 and D2 and D3, then D4.
These are off the top of my head. I'm sure if I wanted to come up with more examples I could.
Is it any wonder when we run into a problem we treat it like a formula?
SoCrates
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johniam
quote: Based on "principles" that allowed for any flight of fancy to become his latest revelation from god he developed a history of activity that would rival a bee's flight pattern for twists and turns. What made sense to him was what he made make sense to himself that week.
One benign example that comes to mind is relative to today's date. In the late 80s or early 90s, not sure, March 4th of that year fell on a Sunday. LCM began the teaching by saying that as a child he had a subscription to Boy's Life magazine and that in its joke section one time one of the jokes was...what calendar date is also a command? Answer: march forth. So he titled that night's teaching 'March forth'.
This reminds me of Zap comix: the comic that plugs you in! Shows a picture of a guy with an outlet on the top of his head and a plug coming out of the sky entering that outlet and his whole face shining. R. Crumb's work, I believe. March forth is a dime a dozen example of "TWI: the Christianity that plugs you in"! I suppose there are many ways one could spin a teaching title out of thin air and repeat the same old same old...stay committed, keep your mind tattooed to the word, etc. But VP would NEVER have resorted to that. Drambuie or not, he took some things about teaching protocol very seriously.
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So_crates
Like?
SoCrates
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geisha779
Yeah, I have to actually agree with you.
A poster here once described it as "VPW's plagiarism that he so skillfully presented via rhetorical grandiloquence of his trance-inducing homiletics."
On the plus side....cult indoctrination is not without its benefits.....it can produce disassociation, anxiety, depression, suicidal tendencies, PSTD . . ..
The list is long and distinguished.
And we thought it was just fruit of the spirit!
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Ham
now that I've half a chance to think about it..
sometime *it* worked.. that is the three stooges moves on the field..
in "the real world".. that kind of incompetence would work, only once..
and after one "victory".. the "enemy" really has figured you out..
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Ham
I love you Socks.
as a.. Christian brother. Nothing weird.
I tend to think.. if you don't mind me putting your thoughts in my words..
I don't subscribe to a quasi logical premise that "because da way said it/taught it/looked at it once.. It must therefore be RIGHT..
or is that the other way around. your words, in my thoughts..
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excathedra
perhaps the lock box or the mother who killed her kid with her fear
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Kit Sober
Linda Z - Thanks.
Geisha779 - My opinion is that forgiveness is not about vp or lcm and what they have done. Acts 7:60 shows Stephen, after he has seen heaven opened and the Lord Jesus Standing at the right hand of God, he forgives those who stoned him to death: "...And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."
Forgiveness is the way of the Lord and the way to open heavens and the presence of the Lord for us. I have read much of Christian martyrs and their stories are awesome records of grudgeless hearts before the Lord.
I have a poster in the kitchen from "Voice of the Martyrs" (persecution.com) that says "It didn't end at the Coliseum. Christians still die."
DC Talk, a rapping happy music group who I heard during a tour with Billy Graham (circa 1995), has issued two volumes of "Jesus Freaks" stories of 20th Century martyrs. And of course Foxe's Book of Martyrs is such precious reading. These things are heartbreaking reminders of Jesus' words that the devil hates us. The amazing thing to me when reading the stories of those men and women who have suffered and died in service of the Lord, and their families who carry the same story of the Lord forward, is the grudgeless heart these people show. Jesus' "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do" and Stephen's, "Lay not this sin to their charge" are echoed in the lives of those who die daily (that's what martyrs have done) because they love the Lord with their whole heart soul mind and strength.
Pope Paul II and Ronald Reagan forgave the men who tried to assassinate them and Martin Luther King's family has forgiven the man who assassinated him. That's what Christians do.
Just a few days ago there was the heartbreaking story of Shahbaz Bhatti and Iraqui Christian who was assassinated. At persecution.com and countless other places are stories of the persecution, torture, and murder of Christians, and nary a word of revenge, spite, bitterness, or any grudging from these people who have had acid poured on them, been hacked to pieces with dirty axes, gruesome horrible unspeakable things people endure because they are (or were) people who had heard of the Lord Jesus. Shahbaz Bhatti, when he had visited to New York ran up to a man on the street with a cross on his neck and gave him a great big hug and said, "Brother, in my country you would be killed for wearing that." Right now in USA people do not often endure that obvious persecution and we have the freedom to offer our prayers and support to defend the rights of others to worship and alleviate a small portion of suffering endured. We are bound with them who suffer (Hebrews 13:3). Being reminded of these things ensures that the wickedness of vp et al is viewed in perspective and reminds me how important it is that I retain my relationship with the Lord so my prayers for others are not hindered, which is my primary vocation right now.
Additionally, I find that I can grieve more freely for those who suffer when there is no bitterness or grudging in my heart. I believe God is like that. He grieves deeply to see people suffer. Our grief is then for the person who suffers only, and family and loved ones. Wicked people are not part of our lives. They are out in the cold by choice.
In hope,
Kit
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geisha779
Kit... I love your tender heart.
Scripture tells us we are to be as wise as serpents and as tender as doves.....which is a two fold proposition. I am sure I can get better at both. I hope the following explains my thinking to you clearly and shows you we do have some common ground. I am not going to keep discussing this though....there is a disconnect between us somewhere. Hopefully you can at the very least, begin to consider where I am coming from.
I worked with VOM (Voice of the Martyrs)for a few years and I still write letters for them. If you don't already and would like to do something, that is a nice way to reach out to the persecuted church. VOM has a list of prisoners and the addresses of where they are being held. VOM even has a translator available on their site and you can choose the encouragement you would like to share. It only takes a few minutes and a few cents for stamps.
My son knows Toby Mac who was with DC talk....I have met him, he is a very sweet and down to earth guy who loves the Lord. You are not telling me anything I don't already know or have not already been emotionally invested in for some time now. The persecuted church has been crucial in my deliverance from the TWI mindset. It is pretty intense to be involved in serving the persecuted church, it changes ones perspective and it is a real faith building yet humbling endeavor. I encourage anyone to check out VOM.The faith the Lord gives to those who are so brutally persecuted is awe inspiring....isn't it?
What did we learn from VP about martyrs? Do you remember? What did he say about those called to that kind of suffering? Did he say they were there because they didn't have ENOUGH "believing" or faith? In essence that it was their own fault? I remember him speaking disparagingly about martyrs. While in TWI I never once prayed for them or gathered items to send them in an Action Pack....or donated a bible to get to them. I thought they were disobedient to "the word" disobedient to God and that is how they got caught and killed. Besides, they believed the trinity and therefor were idolaters anyway. I learned to think that way in TWI. I learned to think that way from VP, a man who claimed to speak the real and right truth about God's word.
I told you. Those who persecute and kill Christians kill the body, a false teacher steals the soul. People who truly follow Christ do not themselves persecute the brethren.Those who are outside the church and have evil motives do. Do you understand what I am telling you? VP lead us into a form of persecution against Christians, against God's most precious of people, martyrs....and he did this in God's own name using God's own words. That is not just an error, that is evil. He lead us right out of the church and into persecuting all other Christians by espousing a false and twisted understanding of faith. There are many examples for us to examine which illustrate that we were lead away from the church and away from Jesus and away from salvation in the Lord, and away from Christianity. Consider, it took the Lord blinding Paul and knocking him to the ground to get his attention. That was mercy, but, VP, was never was knocked to the ground by the Lord....that is judgment. God has both mercy and judgment and it is his prerogative to whom He will show mercy. We don't choose for God, we pay attention.
Now, just consider with me for a moment. . . . please...so you understand what it is I have been going on and on about......if we were lead away from the church, away from God, away from a pure understanding of Christ, what is it we were lead to? We embraced something right? We had a confession of faith. Sadly, we embraced something in which we could easily believe that martyrs didn't have faith. We embraced something in which we could so easily disparage ALL other Christians. We embraced something that blithely allowed us to call God's true servants idolaters. We embraced something that excused sexual sins... which are among God's greatest "pet peeves". We embraced something which discouraged holiness, and we embraced something which allowed us to treat others with disdain, in some cases abandon our families, our friends, our futures, that is at best. At worst we embraced something that allowed us to abandon Jesus Christ and replace Him with a set of principles and laws which we thought would save us.
Kit, VP was not a Christian. He was opposed to Christians and he boldly opposed Christ. I am not judging VP by consigning him to hell. He claimed to be thee teacher of the true scriptural understanding not known since the 1st Century. He claimed God told him he would be. I am judging what he taught me, what he did, what he believed and what he taught people about Jesus Christ. I am judging where he lead me. I am judging what I am supposed to be judging according to the scriptures. I am doing this so that I can keep myself from false teachers. They are bad people. I do this as God instructs so that I can avoid them. I am doing this so that I can warn others. God has already articulated His judgment for such men in scripture, men and woman who use Him to lead people away from Him. He has clearly articulated, graphically articulated, and unchangingly articulated their judgment. I better judge their actions, their faith and what it is in, their words and their deeds, so I don't follow them into their judgment. I am held accountable.
Again, and for the last time. We are warned to leave them alone, avoid them, and to let God deal with them. We should not be in a place where we are trying to forgive them and when God delivers us, and He is able to deliver any of us, then we can have praise in our hearts for God and realize the magnitude of His mercy in rescuing us. He is glorified in that .... He is not glorified in our trying to do it for ourselves. We don't go where we are warned to stay away...there is a reason for that. Be aware of who they are, leave them alone, avoid such men, praise God He is so merciful....and leave it to Him to deal with the rest.
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brainfixed
i have taken to the way oprah winfrey was taught about forgiveness. "forgiveness is letting go of the hope that the past could have been anything different than what it was."
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chockfull
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6VtI1i89yk
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Kit Sober
Geisha779. Thanks. That is so cool about knowing the DC Talk guy and that he is real. I have only seen them on the stage or in print. And I also send those letters out and love doing that. I agree with you on the wickedness of vp et al. That speaking disparagingly of martyrs (as though they didn't have the "believing" to avoid the "fiery dart") never set right with me. I have always loved Christians found in other groups and am so thankful for this Greasespot Cafe (and Transchat(?) and WayDale) for helping sever those bonds of affliction with that group so I could go back to enjoying going to "church" with them and reading the stuff they like to read. Thanks, again.
I am not and was not trying to tell you something you don't know (in the twi fashion of bombarding you with my version of the one-and-only-truth) but merely stating where I was coming from. My opinion, which we are both allowed to have here in the Cafe. This very feature is so precious to me because I was never freely allowed opinions during those 20+ twi years, and afterwards also I continue to couch many of my thoughts (guess what, I am a Catholic now and no Catholic wants to hear that I believe that Joseph abandoned Mary and the kids and that another grief Jesus endured was growing up without a father in the house).
Anyway, I just love coming to this Greasespot Cafe because I can freely speak my mind. Love it:)
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excathedra
forgiving one's self is the most difficult
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brainfixed
which is why i like how oprah was shown about forgiveness, because even god can't change the past, and that includes me and my past. i used to rank on myself real bad for fighting so much with my family and it seemed like i was always itching for a fight and it seemed like maybe i was the abuser and maybe everybody was right about me having devil spirit problems or something, but then my current therapist explained to me that if i was defending myself or reacting to the insanity then that wasn't the same as being an abuser and it certainly wasn't the same as having devil spirits or anything like that at all, but that it was survival. i just had to learn that i was really and truly out of the situations and didn't have to live like that any longer. that was hard!
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chockfull
And yet one of the most compelling things about Christianity is that we are all broken. We all need a Savior.
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act2
"Unforgiveness is like spiritual junk food - temporarily satisfying but really harmful in the long run." LOVE, LOVE, love this!!
Love this topic, bowtwi. Many good insights.
My mother was the most forgiving person I have ever known. When she passed away 6 weeks ago, many of my sibling's ex-spouses came to the visitation and the funeral. Several told me stories of how my mother was so kind to them after their divorces from my siblings. She would always admonish her children to 'overlook' things and go on with life. She didn't tell us to forget them, just overlook them.
I have a brother who has held grudges against many in our family and others. He is so miserable. It is affecting his physical health now. He will not let go of the past. He ended up in ER the other nite but we are not supposed to even know about it. He doesn't want our help or our prayers.
As for me, I'm gonna hold on to my precious mother's words: OVERLOOK IT!!
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Kit Sober
Thanks especially act2. I was nudged by the Lord to send a letter to my brother I have had a lot of troubles with, and He was able to wash away more unforgiveness by that.
Unforgiveness comes from standing in a lofty position looking down with supercilious stare at those much less terrific than myself, which is such a joke. When I wrote the letter to my brother the Lord was able to bring me down a few notches, and truly I was beginning to suffer from loss of holy spirit thinking caused by oxygen loss up there in the rarefied atmosphere of perfectness. Thanks, again.
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excathedra
forgiveness is no one's f'ing business but mine and god and my lord
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chockfull
God, I like this better than any definition of the word on the whole thread. + 100.
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