forgiveness is no one's f'ing business but mine and god and my lord
In my opinion, this dialogue does not impinge upon yours or anyone else's private relationship with the Lord, but the purpose is only to discuss what may be true/untrue, healthy/unhealthy, parameters of that relationship per individual and varying opinions on the subject.
I thought that's what this place is all about, being able to discuss, without invading one's privacy and without judgment on someone else's personal relationships with anyone or anything else. (respecting other's opinions, values, etc. etc.)
I agree with you on the wickedness of vp et al. That speaking disparagingly of martyrs (as though they didn't have the "believing" to avoid the "fiery dart") never set right with me. I have always loved Christians found in other groups and am so thankful for this Greasespot Cafe (and Transchat(?) and WayDale) for helping sever those bonds of affliction with that group so I could go back to enjoying going to "church" with them and reading the stuff they like to read. Thanks, again.
(snip)
[Naturally, that proceeded from another section of Scripture that vpw taught on
a number of times and mangled the understanding. In fact, it was one of the keynote
teachings at ROA 77 ("Healing.") It was based on his insistence upon his toxic
"word-faith" doctrine, and mangling the Scriptures by trying to shoehorn them into
his cage. This particular mangling was so elementary, that even chris g33r taught on
the same verses later-and taught them correctly.
Hebrews 11:32-39a (KJV)
"
32And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.
34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith,
Hebrews 11:32-39a (NASB)
32And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets,
33who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions,
34quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.
35Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection;
36and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment.
37They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated
38(men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.
39And all these, having gained approval through their faith,
[We have men of God of old, all unnamed, who believed God and took a stand. All of them were APPROVED
through their faith (believing, etc), God said the world was not worthy of them.
But vpw found an excuse to bad-mouth them.
vpw said that the meaning of Hebrews 11:35b was that the men of God who were tortured had the option
of having been delivered (released) by God Almighty, but elected instead to drop dead,
so that they could skip ahead to the "better resurrection"
(i.e. the first resurrection, the resurrection of the just, aka the resurrection of life,
as opposed to the 2nd, the resurrection of the unjustified, the resurrection of judgment.)
cg, among others, had no difficulty seeing that this was NOT the meaning.
The deliverance/release spoken of there was a secular one. When offered the chance to give up,
to forswear God and have their torture ended, elected instead to stand for God even when it
meant they only had more torture to look forward to. By their enduring commitment, they obtained
a better resurrection (the first, the one of life, the one of the just.)
So, it wasn't a verse about people "surrendering" and dying, who failed to believe.
It was a verse about people who REFUSED to surrender, who held fast to their beliefs, their faith,
even in the face of continuing torture.
Not that vpw knew anything about personal sacrifice to stand for God. He seemed to never
understand the concept because it was too alien to him.]
14Nebuchadnezzar spake and said unto them, Is it true, O Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, do not ye serve my gods, nor worship the golden image which I have set up?
15Now if ye be ready that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the image which I have made; well: but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who is that God that shall deliver you out of my hands?
16Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.
17If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
18But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.
Daniel 3:14-18 (NASB)
14Nebuchadnezzar responded and said to them, "Is it true, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the golden image that I have set up?
15"Now if you are ready, at the moment you hear the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery and bagpipe and all kinds of music, to fall down and worship the image that I have made, very well But if you do not worship, you will immediately be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire; and what god is there who can deliver you out of my hands?"
16Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego replied to the king, "O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to give you an answer concerning this matter.
17"If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king.
18"But even if He does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up."
[Now, THAT'S some men of God who refused SECULAR deliverance/release. The world was not worthy of Shadrach,
Mesach, and Abed-nego. Even if God did NOT deliver them from a painful death, they would STILL not
worship other gods, or bow their knee to a graven image....and they didn't need to compose an answer
or confer amongst themselves before saying so.
Sir. since you asked,
OUR God is able to deliver us from a blazing furnace.
Even if He does NOT, we STILL won't serve your gods or worship your statue.
To be so prepared to suffer and possibly die horribly JUST for doing what God said...
an alien perspective to twi leadership and teaching....]
Sid Roth, for the week of 4/25-30/11 had Peter Horrobin who gave a most convincing presentation of the urgency and importance of forgiveness to the forgiver.
Thanks Wordwolf. Your quote reminded me of a wonderful teaching by E11ie W1ls0n many years ago and inspired me to start a topic over in the Bible stuff section of the Greasespot Cafe because it was a perfect example to me of when faith gets the stamp of approval from the Lord (the working of His mighty power) and of the precious integrity of the King James Bible. Thanks, again.
From a Guidepost article by a hospice nurse who relays lasting impressions of last words by precious people who are leaving this life
Helen was diagnosed with a deadly cancer that should have taken her life in about two to three months. She lived two and a half years. She lived with anger and resentment because of her husband's unfaithfulness in their early years. By God's grace alone, she began to understand how to find the peace she needed to let go. When her doctor asked her what had kept her here so long, she said to him, "I had to learn to forgive." He was stunned. Helen died peacefully shortly thereafter.
Such a clear example of how, as i've often posted around here from time to time over the years, this (dying, hospice, loss, grief, etc...) is the primary (most fertile and direct) context for understanding whatever wisdom scripture has to convey. Not that we can't glean important and valid insights about other things in life...but the deepest roots of the books are in the arts of dying, imho. This is why they were written. And not just by the death of a person, but also in the death of a worldview, or the death of an institution...even the death of an empire, or an era. Most all of our favorite scriptural words (forgiveness, grace, redemption, atonement, etc...) are most vividly clarified and realized in light of such threshhold experiences. As in the story of Helen, the potential for deepest wisdom comes from touching something ultimate...and nothing less. And while there is no guarantee we will be paying attention in these moments...the motivation/invitation to pay attention is never greater. The potential for changing something that seemed impossible to change is never greater.
truly sorry to hear about that, e. i respect you not wanting to talk about it. i wouldnt.
but i will say, like i said, seems there is no guarantee anyone dies well. or forgives. it is not a given...and then that typically leaves us holding the forgiveness bag to work out...which is a friggin lot.
and then there is no guarantee we work it out at all either...which basically sucks all over again. as if forgiveness, or lack thereof, is not merely personal...it can also be passed on through the generations.
hate and revenge can last centuries...even millenia.
if there are arts/sciences to this forgiveness stuff...i hope it comes down like rain someday.
but i will say, like i said, seems there is no guarantee anyone dies well. or forgives. it is not a given...and then that typically leaves us holding the forgiveness bag to work out...which is a friggin lot.
and then there is no guarantee we work it out at all either...which basically sucks all over again. as if forgiveness, or lack thereof, is not merely personal...it can also be passed on through the generations.
hate and revenge can last centuries...even millenia.
if there are arts/sciences to this forgiveness stuff...i hope it comes down like rain someday.
and it just may.
I was with someone when they died.....just last month. There was nothing very insightful about it. It was just horrible.
There were no great revelations, no forgiveness, or even remorse for those he had so hurt in life. He had opportunity to reach out, but instead he died very angry....just as he had lived.
I asked many of the Hospice workers about this, because some of his anger was directed at me and I have been unrelenting in my care for him this past year. Hospice told me that people usually die....in exactly the same way they lived.
If they were angry and unforgiving in life....they will be angry and unforgiving at their death.
I was with someone when they died.....just last month. There was nothing very insightful about it. It was just horrible.
There were no great revelations, no forgiveness, or even remorse for those he had so hurt in life. He had opportunity to reach out, but instead he died very angry....just as he had lived.
I asked many of the Hospice workers about this, because some of his anger was directed at me and I have been unrelenting in my care for him this past year. Hospice told me that people usually die....in exactly the same way they lived.
If they were angry and unforgiving in life....they will be angry and unforgiving at their death.
Not to belittle or dismiss the horror, but even all that seems like some sort of valuable insight to me. Especially this: "Hospice told me that people usually die...exactly the same way they lived." And I'm glad the word "usually" is in there. But yeah, there is an old saying that "the art of living and the art of dying are one."
And...paraphrasing from memory here...in the end of her life, Dame Cicely Saunders, who revived Hospice and then brought it to America, said that most of the modern hospice movement had been co-opted by the western medical mindset, and that it had failed to live up to the quality and skillfulness of care found in previous eras. From what i've seen and learned, I can't help but agree. Like ive said...the arts are mostly lost. Missing from our institutions, from our cultures, from our churches, from our hospitals.
Example: If the best "medicines" for "forgiveness pain" are not even on the list of approved treatments/medications, or missing from the care-giver/chaplaincy training, or missing from the ministerial/pastoral curriculum...how can it even be treated?
or...
If rites of passage to help men move through stages of life are not recognized as valid, how can we avoid having generations of selfish old fools dying poorly and leaving nearly unforgivable messes?
How can we diagnose, let alone treat such dis-ease if we do not understand how we got here...or that we are "here" at all?
and yeah, the hospice people standing around may not get many things...which is why i often prefer older hospice eras for better examples and practices. Most of modern hospice has been reduced to a specialized focus of a very short fragment of a much longer process we call aging and life in general. In other times and places, if one was fortunate, they picked their chaplain at the first sign of a gray hair, and then developed that relationship til the end. Not some stranger that comes in during the last days or hours. But a friend whose walked with you (and probably your family) awhile.
Also, deeper roots of religions and "spiritualities" involved cultivating "a relationship with death" from our youth as a way to develop wisdom, sanity and compassion. Lifelong avoidance of the topic is like waiting til the last minute to cram for a test...if we are even lucky enough to wake up after so long a time. I am sad to say that such avoidance has been a norm in our culture for a long time, though harder times ahead may change that.
what does hospice and forgiveness have to do with each other
A lot. More than I could touch here, now. But i will try to say a few things that have come to make sense to me.
for one, as with other "inner "spiritual" pains" (such as meaninglessness, hopelessness and loneliness), "unforgivenesses" tend to get hotter/heavier/worse as we age and near the end of our life...if they are not healed. The "crimes and sins" and feelings and facts about them will be The hottest topic of conversation, whether the conversation happens or not. And if the bastards die without some sort of resolution, and we can't bring ourselves to forgive them, it will keep coming up til the end of our days, too. This is one reason why talking to them (not necessarily supernaturally, either) has such a long history in the grief process.
And to me, a big picture view of hospice includes caregivers who are skilled in more than just pain relief or making the moment special for everyone, but it includes helping the dying and their relations address and resolve forgiveness issues (or meaning, hope, and relatedness issues). Because 1) time is running out fast, and 2) the deathbed is a prime motivater and opener of such changes, and 3) the effects of NOT healing those issues last a lifetime...or more.
Which is why I am of the opinion that the more we understand and apply this bigger picture of such hospice-related arts, the healing of all fields will be viral. Because everything us humans are doing to make the world a worse place connects to our relationship with dying, those four basic kinds of suffering, and they way this suffering stacks up and is passed on to the living.
edited to add...If big/deep/wide change is to happen, that end-of-life window is the "most fertile" moment of radical transformation for everyone involved.
Not to be contrary, but..since forgiveness starts with God and was paid for by Christ on the Cross, wouldn't the biggest opportunity in one's life for forgiving others be at or around the time of conversion?
Perhaps I'm immature or old-fashioned in my theology, but I still see Christianity primarily as a way of introducing newness to life, not as primarily a way of preparing for death.
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bowtwi
This might seem more appropriate for the Doctrinal forum, but please bear with my preference to see it here. I believe that The Way screwed up hugely where forgiveness is concerned and many of us hav
Kit Sober
Received an email today with the lesson of the Honey Bee as a comparison to anger and how anger destroys the Honey Bee. The honey bee (or any bee I think) in his wrath sticks his stinger into a perso
Oakspear
In case anyone doesn't already know, I am neither a Christian nor an atheist, but I do have some opinions about forgiveness. For day-to-day small stuff, I find that it's not worth the effort to thin
Kit Sober
In my opinion, this dialogue does not impinge upon yours or anyone else's private relationship with the Lord, but the purpose is only to discuss what may be true/untrue, healthy/unhealthy, parameters of that relationship per individual and varying opinions on the subject.
I thought that's what this place is all about, being able to discuss, without invading one's privacy and without judgment on someone else's personal relationships with anyone or anything else. (respecting other's opinions, values, etc. etc.)
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excathedra
but i did give my opinion
i love you kit and all you people
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Kit Sober
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Kit Sober
A remembrance of Corrie Ten Boom on forgiveness From Cyber Daily Devotions, 7/8/11
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excathedra
i always loved hearing stories about Corrie Ten Boom
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OperaBuff
Bowtwi that is wonderful, thank you for sharing.
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Kit Sober
A murderer forgiven from GodTube
Learning about the genocide that took place in Rwanda in 1994 was very painful (it was not covered in twi).
This GodTube video came from those events.
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Kit Sober
From another precious devotional touching on forgiveness:
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Kit Sober
From another precious devotional touching on forgiveness:
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WordWolf
[Naturally, that proceeded from another section of Scripture that vpw taught on
a number of times and mangled the understanding. In fact, it was one of the keynote
teachings at ROA 77 ("Healing.") It was based on his insistence upon his toxic
"word-faith" doctrine, and mangling the Scriptures by trying to shoehorn them into
his cage. This particular mangling was so elementary, that even chris g33r taught on
the same verses later-and taught them correctly.
Hebrews 11:32-39a (KJV)
"
32And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.
34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith,
Hebrews 11:32-39a (NASB)
32And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets,
33who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions,
34quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.
35Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection;
36and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment.
37They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated
38(men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.
39And all these, having gained approval through their faith,
[We have men of God of old, all unnamed, who believed God and took a stand. All of them were APPROVED
through their faith (believing, etc), God said the world was not worthy of them.
But vpw found an excuse to bad-mouth them.
vpw said that the meaning of Hebrews 11:35b was that the men of God who were tortured had the option
of having been delivered (released) by God Almighty, but elected instead to drop dead,
so that they could skip ahead to the "better resurrection"
(i.e. the first resurrection, the resurrection of the just, aka the resurrection of life,
as opposed to the 2nd, the resurrection of the unjustified, the resurrection of judgment.)
cg, among others, had no difficulty seeing that this was NOT the meaning.
The deliverance/release spoken of there was a secular one. When offered the chance to give up,
to forswear God and have their torture ended, elected instead to stand for God even when it
meant they only had more torture to look forward to. By their enduring commitment, they obtained
a better resurrection (the first, the one of life, the one of the just.)
So, it wasn't a verse about people "surrendering" and dying, who failed to believe.
It was a verse about people who REFUSED to surrender, who held fast to their beliefs, their faith,
even in the face of continuing torture.
Not that vpw knew anything about personal sacrifice to stand for God. He seemed to never
understand the concept because it was too alien to him.]
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WordWolf
Daniel 3: 14-18 (KJV)
14Nebuchadnezzar spake and said unto them, Is it true, O Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, do not ye serve my gods, nor worship the golden image which I have set up?
15Now if ye be ready that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the image which I have made; well: but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who is that God that shall deliver you out of my hands?
16Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.
17If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
18But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.
Daniel 3:14-18 (NASB)
14Nebuchadnezzar responded and said to them, "Is it true, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the golden image that I have set up?
15"Now if you are ready, at the moment you hear the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery and bagpipe and all kinds of music, to fall down and worship the image that I have made, very well But if you do not worship, you will immediately be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire; and what god is there who can deliver you out of my hands?"
16Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego replied to the king, "O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to give you an answer concerning this matter.
17"If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king.
18"But even if He does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up."
[Now, THAT'S some men of God who refused SECULAR deliverance/release. The world was not worthy of Shadrach,
Mesach, and Abed-nego. Even if God did NOT deliver them from a painful death, they would STILL not
worship other gods, or bow their knee to a graven image....and they didn't need to compose an answer
or confer amongst themselves before saying so.
Sir. since you asked,
OUR God is able to deliver us from a blazing furnace.
Even if He does NOT, we STILL won't serve your gods or worship your statue.
To be so prepared to suffer and possibly die horribly JUST for doing what God said...
an alien perspective to twi leadership and teaching....]
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Kit Sober
Sid Roth, for the week of 4/25-30/11 had Peter Horrobin who gave a most convincing presentation of the urgency and importance of forgiveness to the forgiver.
http://www.sidroth.org/site/News2?abbr=tv_&page=NewsArticle&id=9939
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Kit Sober
Thanks Wordwolf. Your quote reminded me of a wonderful teaching by E11ie W1ls0n many years ago and inspired me to start a topic over in the Bible stuff section of the Greasespot Cafe because it was a perfect example to me of when faith gets the stamp of approval from the Lord (the working of His mighty power) and of the precious integrity of the King James Bible. Thanks, again.
From a Guidepost article by a hospice nurse who relays lasting impressions of last words by precious people who are leaving this life
The complete article is here.
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sirguessalot
thanks, Kit. what a story.
Such a clear example of how, as i've often posted around here from time to time over the years, this (dying, hospice, loss, grief, etc...) is the primary (most fertile and direct) context for understanding whatever wisdom scripture has to convey. Not that we can't glean important and valid insights about other things in life...but the deepest roots of the books are in the arts of dying, imho. This is why they were written. And not just by the death of a person, but also in the death of a worldview, or the death of an institution...even the death of an empire, or an era. Most all of our favorite scriptural words (forgiveness, grace, redemption, atonement, etc...) are most vividly clarified and realized in light of such threshhold experiences. As in the story of Helen, the potential for deepest wisdom comes from touching something ultimate...and nothing less. And while there is no guarantee we will be paying attention in these moments...the motivation/invitation to pay attention is never greater. The potential for changing something that seemed impossible to change is never greater.
thanks again for posting it.
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excathedra
i don't know these are beautiful accounts and thoughts and i love t and kit so much
but my sunofabeechin father died with none of this beauty
i'm sure i'm not making myself clear but it's because i don't want to talk about it right now
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sirguessalot
truly sorry to hear about that, e. i respect you not wanting to talk about it. i wouldnt.
but i will say, like i said, seems there is no guarantee anyone dies well. or forgives. it is not a given...and then that typically leaves us holding the forgiveness bag to work out...which is a friggin lot.
and then there is no guarantee we work it out at all either...which basically sucks all over again. as if forgiveness, or lack thereof, is not merely personal...it can also be passed on through the generations.
hate and revenge can last centuries...even millenia.
if there are arts/sciences to this forgiveness stuff...i hope it comes down like rain someday.
and it just may.
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geisha779
I was with someone when they died.....just last month. There was nothing very insightful about it. It was just horrible.
There were no great revelations, no forgiveness, or even remorse for those he had so hurt in life. He had opportunity to reach out, but instead he died very angry....just as he had lived.
I asked many of the Hospice workers about this, because some of his anger was directed at me and I have been unrelenting in my care for him this past year. Hospice told me that people usually die....in exactly the same way they lived.
If they were angry and unforgiving in life....they will be angry and unforgiving at their death.
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sirguessalot
Not to belittle or dismiss the horror, but even all that seems like some sort of valuable insight to me. Especially this: "Hospice told me that people usually die...exactly the same way they lived." And I'm glad the word "usually" is in there. But yeah, there is an old saying that "the art of living and the art of dying are one."
And...paraphrasing from memory here...in the end of her life, Dame Cicely Saunders, who revived Hospice and then brought it to America, said that most of the modern hospice movement had been co-opted by the western medical mindset, and that it had failed to live up to the quality and skillfulness of care found in previous eras. From what i've seen and learned, I can't help but agree. Like ive said...the arts are mostly lost. Missing from our institutions, from our cultures, from our churches, from our hospitals.
Example: If the best "medicines" for "forgiveness pain" are not even on the list of approved treatments/medications, or missing from the care-giver/chaplaincy training, or missing from the ministerial/pastoral curriculum...how can it even be treated?
or...
If rites of passage to help men move through stages of life are not recognized as valid, how can we avoid having generations of selfish old fools dying poorly and leaving nearly unforgivable messes?
How can we diagnose, let alone treat such dis-ease if we do not understand how we got here...or that we are "here" at all?
like i said...i'm praying for rain.
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excathedra
forgive (no pun intended) my ignorance but what does hospice and forgiveness have to do with each other?
not to beat a dead (another pun not intended) horse, but a bastard in life can be a bastard in death
to me, the hospice people standing around don't get that
i don't know -- like i said i'm speaking from personal experience in regard to more than one bastard
love,e
i really didn't mean the puns - sorry if i sounded like an .... hol e
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cman
good puns
sirg can answer better then me I think
speaking of dieing and hospice
hospice is more then about taking care of the dieing
but anyway, I am amused that some say they will never change
or that some would say that about someone else
cause change is coming to each person
it can not be stopped, if not while alive
certainly after death the life will change
in a good way, the journey is not abandoned when we die
but continues....
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excathedra
thanks c
should all of the dying be taken care of?
how heartless of me even to ask, honestly
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cman
i would hope that to be a yes
but unfortunately this is not the case
should? - yes
does it happen? no
even for untimely or quick deaths
the reverence and honor is lost in ignorance
the 'rites of passage' knowledge is obscured
i'm at a loss for words
cause those are our rites
even now in this life
many 'passages' are not seen
seen as emotion, it's not
in fact emotion is mistaken for these rites I believe
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sirguessalot
no worries about the unintended puns, e.
and yeah, the hospice people standing around may not get many things...which is why i often prefer older hospice eras for better examples and practices. Most of modern hospice has been reduced to a specialized focus of a very short fragment of a much longer process we call aging and life in general. In other times and places, if one was fortunate, they picked their chaplain at the first sign of a gray hair, and then developed that relationship til the end. Not some stranger that comes in during the last days or hours. But a friend whose walked with you (and probably your family) awhile.
Also, deeper roots of religions and "spiritualities" involved cultivating "a relationship with death" from our youth as a way to develop wisdom, sanity and compassion. Lifelong avoidance of the topic is like waiting til the last minute to cram for a test...if we are even lucky enough to wake up after so long a time. I am sad to say that such avoidance has been a norm in our culture for a long time, though harder times ahead may change that.
A lot. More than I could touch here, now. But i will try to say a few things that have come to make sense to me.
for one, as with other "inner "spiritual" pains" (such as meaninglessness, hopelessness and loneliness), "unforgivenesses" tend to get hotter/heavier/worse as we age and near the end of our life...if they are not healed. The "crimes and sins" and feelings and facts about them will be The hottest topic of conversation, whether the conversation happens or not. And if the bastards die without some sort of resolution, and we can't bring ourselves to forgive them, it will keep coming up til the end of our days, too. This is one reason why talking to them (not necessarily supernaturally, either) has such a long history in the grief process.
And to me, a big picture view of hospice includes caregivers who are skilled in more than just pain relief or making the moment special for everyone, but it includes helping the dying and their relations address and resolve forgiveness issues (or meaning, hope, and relatedness issues). Because 1) time is running out fast, and 2) the deathbed is a prime motivater and opener of such changes, and 3) the effects of NOT healing those issues last a lifetime...or more.
Which is why I am of the opinion that the more we understand and apply this bigger picture of such hospice-related arts, the healing of all fields will be viral. Because everything us humans are doing to make the world a worse place connects to our relationship with dying, those four basic kinds of suffering, and they way this suffering stacks up and is passed on to the living.
edited to add...If big/deep/wide change is to happen, that end-of-life window is the "most fertile" moment of radical transformation for everyone involved.
and...spot on cman.
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Jbarrax
Not to be contrary, but..since forgiveness starts with God and was paid for by Christ on the Cross, wouldn't the biggest opportunity in one's life for forgiving others be at or around the time of conversion?
Perhaps I'm immature or old-fashioned in my theology, but I still see Christianity primarily as a way of introducing newness to life, not as primarily a way of preparing for death.
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