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"A prophet is a difficult man to live with"


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Don't I remember VP saying this - must have been in PFAL? He was referring then to OT prophets.

Because the OT prophets spoke out boldly, upset the local hierarchies, and weren't afraid to be obnoxious and persecuted. In fact, that added to their integrity. Those guys really stood up for what they believed in!

Yep. VP fancied himself as a prophet (as well presumably, as The Teacher).

He sure had all them thar gift ministries - in abundance.

Apostle - brought us new light - showed us how to live the way the church hadn't lived since the first century.

Prophet - always speaking forth so boldly and taking a stand. All that persecution he suffered, just because of his bold stand.

Evangelist - and not just an evangelist, either, but the leader of a whole mass of evangelists (WOWs).

Pastor - he certainly showed some women how much he cared (gag).

Teacher - his self-chosen moniker.

Did he ever call himself a "prophet"?

Or just one who "speaks for and on behalf of God"?

And while we're about it - which of these might be applied to Lovely Loy? I guess he must have fancied himself as Teacher Mk II but I'm not sure if I ever heard him refer to his own "gift ministry".

And he certainly wasn't a gifted dancer. (Oh no no no, that's not a gift ministry anyway).

And Rosie? Has she the gift ministry of Teacher Mk III?

She was supposed to be "healing" wasn't she? So would that mean she had the GM of a Pastor?

Haven preserve us from this talentless lot.

I do mean this as a serious topic...but I can imagine it might very quickly turn into something else.

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I remember VPW saying that a prophet was a hard man to live with several times during my 23.5 years with the Way. In context, he meant that a TRUE biblical prophet spoke the Word of God without worrying about what people thought of it ... his Godly job was to speak God's Word.

As to whether he himself thought of himself as a prophet, that's another story ... I'm just reporting the context in which I heard it.

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I am agreeing especially with mstar1. Bible tells us that every man (and i believe it's an inclusive use of the word and includes both men and women) is right in his own eyes. Only one who listens to the Lord and/or cares about the feelings and opinions of others will change what he does for the well being of others (prov 12:15, 16:2, 21:2, etc. etc.)

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Don't I remember VP saying this - must have been in PFAL? He was referring then to OT prophets.

He said it in the Intermediate Class. Some prophets are hard to live with but so are a lot of other people. You don't have to be a prophet to be a jerk, and just because your a jerk doesn't mean your a prophet. In TWI we witnessed people with some serious emotional problems that hid behind the label of "Prophet", "Teacher", or "Man of God". It's really no different outside of TWI. People act out roles all the time. I had a man not in TWI tell me fairly recently that the reason he struggled with pornography so much was because he had the ministry of a teacher. He was such a threat to the Devil, he said, that he would get bombarded with these temptations to slow him down. I said, "No, you struggle with pornography because you have a problem with lust and pride". I never saw him again, perhaps I should have been a little more diplomatic.

I have a problem with anger. I used to be a lot worse. I had myself convinced that part of the reason was because I might be a prophet and I just couldn't stand it when I saw something "off the Word". Then I started thinking it through and read where the Bible said that wrath and anger should be "put away", prophets were not exceptions. That's when I realized I wasn't a prophet at all; just a legalistic, hacked-off sinner. It may sound strange, but I started getting better after that mainly because I started becoming more human.

Anyway, I'm probably rambling. Yeah, VP made the statement you're referring to in the Intermediate Class.

Edited by Broken Arrow
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Intermediate class. Yes, that might be more appropriate.

Yep, mstar1, I think it was just an excuse to be obnoxious and really not bother bringing himself back into line.

Broken Arrow, very interesting what you say.

Rosie...a prophet(ess). :biglaugh:

Worse, LCM as an apostle. :confused:

I can honestly say that I haven't come across this in the Christians that I've met who were never to do with the Way. n the contrary, I have met ministers who acknowledge that they aren't good at (...) and appoint others to help them with that side of things.

My former vicar, now gone to a different church, was a great teacher and visionary in what he wanted to achieve with the church, but when it came to the pastoral side...not so empathetic. But he did have a great associate minister who made the congregation as individuals feel very valued. So it worked well.

When I come to think of it, there are few at TWI that I'd have gone to willingly for pastoral care whilst in rez. I had no expectation that things would remain confidential, or that difficulties would be dealt with kindly and empathetically.

Who, in fact, would you describe as having the gift ministry of a "pastor"? Anyone?

Or any other gift ministry, come to that? Prophets included. Has there ever been one genuine prophesy that has come to pass? (yet?) That couldn't have been worked out from newspaper reports?

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Who, in fact, would you describe as having the gift ministry of a "pastor"? Anyone?

Or any other gift ministry, come to that?

I met some people on the lower levels of wayworld that were kind and thoughtful but no one that was particularly gifted as a pastor.

It wasnt until I was out and actually met some people that were real pastors that I realized that I was looking in the wrong bucket.

The Way was self declared as not being a 'christian' organization--and although they meant it differently (they were better), I believe they were absolutely right, they werent christian

It would be sort of dense to expect any real'gift ministries' at all to live there.

Some people may have been pretty good salesmen while they were selling a class, or a book, or a program but thats about the most credit I can honestly give to them.

As far as other gifts--Martindale had the gift of yelling and screaming---more than any other adult than I have ever seen, but its not something that I really look for or revere

Edited by mstar1
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The evil hypocrite vpw shamelessly rewrote what each of the gift ministers was,

all so he could use it to his own advantage.

Sometimes he was willing to claim he was one or another-

more often, he made the comparisons obvious and left it for others to say.

Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers.

An APOSTLE is a "SENT ONE." A lot of Christians know this.

But vpw said an apostle "brings new light to their generation.

It may be old light, but to his generation, it's new light."

vpw was obviously not a "sent one" because the only one who "sent" him was himself,

and he "sent" himself wherever the money or the young women were.

However, he claimed to bring "new light", although even he had to admit

this "new light" was "old light" at the time, so he made up an excuse

for THAT, too.

Prophets speak for God, to God's people. Because they have to correct

those going off, they are often HATED as bearers of bad news, and some spent

time in prisons or tortured or killed for it.

vpw was "a hard man to take" because he was immature and lacked self-control.

He CLAIMED to speak for God. His claims never made him a REAL prophet.

Evangelists speak to the people to win new Christians.

vpw rewrote this too- he said an evangelist isn't the one who goes out, he's

the one who gets the OTHER Christians fired up to go out.

He stays back, smoking cigars and drinking Drambuie out of a coffee cup.

Very convenient for vpw. He could make all sorts of claims and work maybe

2 days a week, and still claim titles under God.

Pastors are like shepherds. Jesus said the shepherd gives his life for the sheep.

The shepherd is THE protector of the flock, and risks his own life for the flock.

vpw USED the flock, and considered the flock ripe for fleecing. He SPOKE about

using up his life for the flock, then went back, lit another cigar and poured

himself more booze.

Teachers- not every person can be propped in front of a room and actually be a

gift minister of a teacher. Those teachers CHANGE LIVES. FOR THE BETTER.

Those who vpw changed more have just become vpw machines, spitting out vpw

dogma and rhetoric, and crushing their own free will in the process.

vpw was to teaching what Dahmer was to fine dining.

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The evil hypocrite vpw shamelessly rewrote what each of the gift ministers was,

all so he could use it to his own advantage.

Besides the five gift ministries (Eph 4:11)......the scriptures make reference to helps, governments, and workers of miracles in the context of the church (I Cor 12:28,29). To me, there is far more depth to this context than wierwille or twi ventured to go.

For example, prophets......do they speak and forwarn cultures and societies of calamities, famines, governmental breakdowns, corruption, enemy uprisings, etc to protect us? Clearly, God protected civilizations and cultures from impending doom to preserve the Christ line. Don't the scriptures teach that even the unjust are greatly benefited by God's benevolence and His prophets?

Or say, pastors?........are they just confined to church or religious settings? Can pastors be found ministering in prisons? rehabilitation centers? hospitals? funeral homes? war zones? missionary work? family intervention? college campuses? retirement homes? How wide of swath does this ministry cover? How big is the God of All Comfort?

Same with teachers......all walks of life, secular and spiritual. Why does everything have to be black/white theology with twi? Didn't Jesus teach about LIFE AND GODLINESS..... fishing, crops, harvest, money, business, talents, building, traditions, government, etc?????

EVERYTHING wierwille and twi taught is suspect.

EVERYTHING needs to be researched and reconsidered.

EVERYTHING.

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Or say, pastors?........are they just confined to church or religious settings? NO Can pastors be found ministering in prisons? YES rehabilitation centers? YES hospitals? YES funeral homes? YES war zones? YES missionary work? YES family intervention? YES college campuses? YES retirement homes? YES How wide of swath does this ministry cover? How big is the God of All Comfort? Big

Even without the title or calling Christians are still needed to pastor.....there are opportunities for everyone to do these type of things. The need is great. Paul told Timothy to do the work of an evangelist and it appears that was not one of Timothy's gifts....but the need was there in Ephesus....so Paul simply said ...do it.

Same with teachers......all walks of life, secular and spiritual. Why does everything have to be black/white theology with twi? Didn't Jesus teach about LIFE AND GODLINESS..... fishing, crops, harvest, money, business, talents, building, traditions, government, etc?????

FWIW I believe Jesus used to walked around and use everyday things to teach about God. All of creation is a part of God's plan....and it wasn't that it was just created, but it is God's continual sustaining of His creation that Jesus would point out. I believe that Jesus used to walk around pointing to actual people, places, things and events. I think that is where many of the parables come from.

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VP was both an apostle and a teacher. One sent to give light. His main light was ADAN and the holy spirit stuff. JCING he did reluctantly. One of the best teaching analogies he did was the comparison in session 10 to a surgeon having to have all his medical textbooks on the gurney with the one being operated on to a minister who didn't know his book. You wouldn't trist your physical life to a man who doesn't know his book. Remember?PFAL was full of those alegorical examples. I heard he once taught the way corps for 5 hours on the wortd 'of' in Romans 1:1. (Paul, an apostle OF Jesus Christ...)

LCM seemed to fit the partial definition of a prophet; warns the carnal Christian of God's displeasure, etc.

Donnie Fugit was definitely an evangelist. So was John Lynn.

Paul Merkel was a pastor. He was territory cordo in STL for 5 years, one of which as limb cordo as well. He could be sarcastic as hell. Son of a doctor, jazz buff, sports fan, especially hockey. He had this 4 foot long sword laying against the wall next to him when he would do twig cordo meetings. Once he told a 6th corps woman that he'd cut het tits off if she was late to a meeting again; that's how he would joke around, but he just had this effect on people. Everybody felt comfortable around him. We had 10 twigs in STL when he arrived and 21 within 2 years. That is why I believe he had the ministry of a pastor. I heard Bob Moynihan had a similar MO at Rome City.

Gotta mention Walter Cummins as a teacher. He doesn't yell, he doesn't even vary the volume of his voice much and he has a dry sense of humor, but you can listen to him very easily. LCM taught in a monotone. Even when he was yelling it was easy for me to screen him out if I felt like it. VP paced himself. Him and Walter both would gently explain their points. Those ministries were at work in those men, and many others.

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Great posts, WW, skyrider, geisha.

Yes, that extra stuff in 1 Cor 12 never got talked about. I think some versions talk about the gift of administration - which seems a little weird, but then again, God is a God of organization not chaos. If VPW had latched onto that, no telling who could have had the "gift of administration" bestowed upon them (gulp).

I find myself wondering if I would really recognize any one of these ministries if I saw it as a "stand-alone." I fear I have become too suspicious. Maybe I expect too much?

But I do know, as Geisha says, that people manifesting these attributes are everywhere, in all sorts of roles. And each of us can switch between the roles, some roles more successfully than others, to provide (minister) help, guidance and succor wherever needed (thank God).

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. . . .

He had this 4 foot long sword laying against the wall next to him when he would do twig cordo meetings. Once he told a 6th corps woman that he'd cut het tits off if she was late to a meeting again; that's how he would joke around, but he just had this effect on people. Everybody felt comfortable around him.

The rest of your post was just so...so...so....very strange to my ears...I won't even bother. Could be you are just trying to get a rise...who knows? But, this part....on the other hand...really ticks me off. I would educate you on the proper terms for describing a woman's anatomy.....but I know that is fruitless. I would point out that in no way is it appropriate for a Christian Pastor to joke about maiming a woman....but you would not get it.

However, I will point out to you just how offensive that particular joke is and your relaying it ....given what has happened to many women in the Sudan. Christian women who have had their breasts cut off with swords.

Do you have any clue what is happening outside of your little bubble?

Excuse me now...I just threw up a little in my mouth.

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Paul Merkel was a pastor. He was territory cordo in STL for 5 years, one of which as limb cordo as well. He could be sarcastic as hell. Son of a doctor, jazz buff, sports fan, especially hockey. He had this 4 foot long sword laying against the wall next to him when he would do twig cordo meetings. Once he told a 6th corps woman that he'd cut het tits off if she was late to a meeting again; that's how he would joke around, but he just had this effect on people. Everybody felt comfortable around him. We had 10 twigs in STL when he arrived and 21 within 2 years. That is why I believe he had the ministry of a pastor. I heard Bob Moynihan had a similar MO at Rome City.

A man says something like that in a Christian fellowship and you believe he had the ministry of a pastor?

And you... Your frequent references to sexual deviancy of various sorts is really disturbing.

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You wouldn't trist your physical life to a man who doesn't know his book

I wouldn't trust my life to a *doctor(you really know he wasn't a doctor, don't you?)* well over three quarters tanked on Drambuie..

*Nurse, nurse.. help me fer crying out loud. I can't find the patient.. he's got to be here somewhere.. ah, there you are. Just hold still..*

:biglaugh:

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I met some people on the lower levels of wayworld that were kind and thoughtful but no one that was particularly gifted as a pastor.

It wasnt until I was out and actually met some people that were real pastors that I realized that I was looking in the wrong bucket.

The Way was self declared as not being a 'christian' organization--and although they meant it differently (they were better), I believe they were absolutely right, they werent christian

It would be sort of dense to expect any real'gift ministries' at all to live there.

Some people may have been pretty good salesmen while they were selling a class, or a book, or a program but thats about the most credit I can honestly give to them.

As far as other gifts--Martindale had the gift of yelling and screaming---more than any other adult than I have ever seen, but its not something that I really look for or revere

LCM had the gift of throwing a temper tantrum like a 2 or 3 year old who needed a spanking from his parents.

Edited by Thomas Loy Bumgarner
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"VP was both an apostle and a teacher. One sent to give light. His main light was ADAN and the holy spirit stuff. JCING he did reluctantly"

John, your definition of an apostle is not in accord with what Wierwille taught in PFAL. Wierwille said "an apostle is one who is sent to bring new light to a generation. It may be old light but it is new to that generation".

Even by his own definition, Wierwille could not have been an apostle. PFAL was a hijacking of B.G. Leonard's work. Receiving the holy spirit today, at various places, was an almost word for word hijacking of J.E. Stiles. That means it was not new light to his generation. Bullinger's How To Enjoy The Bible was anything but new. "Fear is sand in the machinery of life" is a quote lifted from E. Stanley Jones. The Corps program is a bastardization of Jones' Ashram concept.... And, even though such concepts as "four crucified" are intriguing to explore, much of this sort of thing has been shown, time and time again, to be based on faulty research. And, how can you be so certain that ADAN and JCING are even the work of VPW?

It would appear to me that a real sticking point for you is the idea of Christ's Divinity, as well as the idea of soul sleep. Have you ever explored these areas from any framework outside of PFAL? Perhaps if you had, you could, at the very least, partake in an intelligent discussion that isn't based on what V.P. (you know he wasn't really a Dr., don't you?) Wierwille said.

Now, you list a number of men and the gift ministry's you say they have/had. What is your basis for this conclusion? Did you get revelation to that effect? Did God say, as outlined in The Advanced Class, that it's alright to share this revelation? Is there scripture that supports your claims? Or, are you simply making this declaration based on your own "5 senses" observations?

As others have pointed out, your example of what constitutes a pastor appears to be quite twisted and reveals more about your true attitudes than you may realize.

Edited by waysider
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quote: And BTW, it's been found that surgeons that use written checklists instead of memory cut the complication and death rate by a more than a third.

Written checklists and medical books are not the same thing. You wouldn't do well witnessing to someone if you had to constantly recheck your bible. As an asst. mgr of a restaurant chain I had to do checklists every hour, but if we got busy, then all bets were off, and people who I assigned to do maintenance stuff or housekeeping stuff were whisked into the food prep area until the rush was over.

Nothing wrong with checklists; they're like a buffer zone. My wife has MS. She injects herself with something called beta seron every 2 days. There is a step by step procedure how to do this. She's done it many times, yet she still likes me to assist her by reading each step; takes about 5 minutes. She could probably do it all by herself, but she says it comforts her that I'm there to help. Plus there is a rotation of several injection locations and sometimes it's much easier to get at certain locations with me pulling back her clothing so she has her hands free.

VPs point is good. You really WOULDN'T trust your physical life to someone who didn't know their book. How about a lawyer. You'd want competence there, right? Another good teaching point he made was when he said that if your financial statement says you have a million dollars in the bank, you can't literally see the money, yet you trust what is written on the statement, and that we can trust what's written in scripture the same way.

At a day in the word in 1978 VP said there was no better way to build a scope of spiritual understanding than by just reading the bible. Not collaterals, not word studies, not the way mag, just read the bible a lot. I'm not buying this stuff about twi publications equal scripture; the whole purpose of that other stuff was to point you in the direction of or to reenforce scripture as the word of God.

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quote: Do you have any clue what is happening outside of your little bubble?

No, do you? Geisha, no offense, but the purely interpersonal aspect of my posting relationship with you has taken on a quality that reminds me of an old SNL skit. It was during the very first year of SNL. Candace Bergen was the host and in the skit she was an investigative reporter interviewing Dan Aykroid, who was a toy maker. He made toys called bag o' glass, bag of nails, and Johnny switchblade killer ninja, or something like that. She was trying to gently convince him that his toys were dangerous and he kept blowing her off. He'd say, "I'm just giving the kids what they want!". This analogy is not a 100% match, but as for the purely interpersonal side of this, I think it's kind of humorous.

I noticed you came on GSC in '06. These threads are kind of a replay of dialogue from 2000 to early 2008. Same basic conflict. Some of the women who used to dispute with me have not participated. If your private message is active, they've probably contacted you saying, "Look, don't engage this guy, he's nuts, he's loony, he's not going to see the light.", whatever it is. I'm not merely trying to get a rise, I'm stating my opinion, and believe it or not, I'm not the only one with opinions like these.

While I believe that VP did bad things, I don't buy the whole hype. There is an infinity of things he's been accused of and you and others seem to blindly accept all of it as a truth package. I do not. Some (perhaps most) of that stuff is either fabricated or exaggerated. There's a reason why he was never arrested for anything and it's not because the devil was protecting his own.

He taught us great truth about God and the accomplished works of His son Jesus Christ. Truth that is the same yesterday, today, and forever. God wasn't looking for a few good men; He only needed one. His son Jesus Christ. We have eternal life, which is truly more than abundant. We have access to God, peace in our hearts, we were called to the one body, the mystery, seated on the right hand of God, righteous, sanctified, justified, redeemed, reconciled and reconciling. That trumps any laundry list of sins.

If you conclude that all VP taught is bogus because of his flesh, then the dominoes all start to fall; you might not have eternal life, you might not have access to God, and the mudslide continues. Why did God allow me to be so cruelly deceived. Does God care about me at all? Does God even exist? Then you have to start over at the beginning. Most people will revert back to whatever they did before twi; religion, drugs, whatever, but it's all despair. Not hope, despair.

Some here have said prove all things, hold fast that which is good, but in practice, most of you think that once someone has heard what VP allegedly did, then there's a point where it is expected that the hearer must "repent and be made clean". Yet there are many acceptible ways to be "made clean" as long as they don't espouse anything twi. The blood of Jesus Christ has already cleansed us from all sin. One sacrifice. One offering. One savior. This hasn't gone anywhere.

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While I believe that VP did bad things, I don't buy the whole hype. There is an infinity of things he's been accused of and you and others seem to blindly accept all of it...

johniam......were you ever around wierwille day after day?

johniam......were you ever in the corps? on staff?

Have you read Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve, to see all the men who taught vpw along his journey questing for truth? The book details Rev. BG Leonard's foundational class.....and after vpw sat thru it twice, he rushed home and taught the same material as his own. Grads of Leonards' class didn't have to register and pay for "wierwille's class".....they were ALREADY GRADS.

Your posts remind me of a couple other posters who would defend wierwille......yet, never had gone WOW, never been on staff, nor in the corps. The whole substance of their defending vpw was his pfal class and plagairized material.

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(snip)

At a day in the word in 1978 VP said there was no better way to build a scope of spiritual understanding than by just reading the bible. Not collaterals, not word studies, not the way mag, just read the bible a lot. I'm not buying this stuff about twi publications equal scripture; the whole purpose of that other stuff was to point you in the direction of or to reenforce scripture as the word of God.

[Yet, if you did good, clear research, and it disagreed with vpw, you were in trouble.

A seamless case was made that "adultery is bad", and twi tried to have it BURIED and said

HORRIBLE things about it. (Many people were told they'd get POSSESSED if they READ it!}

So, for vpw and twi, the word of vpw is of cardinal importance.

The Bible is important, but when they disagree, it's vpw's way or the highway.]

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