Here is another face to face with Jesus / to Hell and back encounter descriptions. For me this especially was a motivater to reevaluate and upgrade my relationship with the Lord. "A friendly reminder: Time is running out"
hell is nothing more than a scare tactic used to frighten the simple into submission.
most,if not all religions have some version of it and it serves the same purpose.a tool used to obtain obediance from the faithful and support($)by fleecing the flock.
however subtle it is a form of fear utilized by evil people to gain easy resources from those who are desperate and of low self esteem.
how despicable.
no one knows what happens when we die.
no one.
and it's perfectly normal to fear this unknown.
unfortunately this fear has become a tool to be expoited by heartless people throughout history who use it for monetary gain and social/politcal engineering.
it's a trap and a damn good one, and half of beating a trap is knowing it exists.the rest is up to you.
Hell. I don't believe in it. I'm not sure whether or not it was a wm teaching I got this from, but, wherever it came from I believe that Hell is a figure of speech meaning separation from God. In the end, believers are with God for eternity. I don't believe there is a place God has pre-destined people who chose not to believe in him stay for eternity. I just don't think that the God of existence would place people in a place where they will suffer for an eternity while we stay in heaven with him.
maybe it's trying to perform the same mind numbing ritual, expecting some kind of different miraculous result.
Like eternally buying a lottery ticket or something..
maybe it is the sponsored link. Want to lose weight? No. for an eternity and an eternity, we can click on the link so as to be hustled into into believing we can lose the last half a pound over obesity..
This is one of the foundational scriptures Wierwille used in his book Are The Dead Alive Now?, which is sometimes referred to here as ADAN. Wierwille, as you may have already guessed, is not really the author of this "book". It's actually a cobbling together of two shorter works by one of the authors from whom VPW was fond of borrowing. There is lots more on GSC regarding that aspect if it interests you.
Anyhow, it's a subject that has been called "soul sleep" by many people outside of The Way. Within The Way, it gave a whole array of special significance to speaking in tongues. For instance, someone's death may be commented on as such: "He's fallen asleep but we'll meet again at the gathering together. I'm sure of this because I heard him speak in tongues"
Here is an excerpt from page 23/24 of ADAN.
Because there is no consciousness in death, there is no awareness of time for the dead person. Thus, the moment of a man's death becomes, in a sense of time for him, the moment of the return of Christ. But, within the dimension of time, the moment of a man's death is neither his gathering together unto Christ nor his resurrection. In a sense of time he does not go immediately to Heaven, but descends into gravedom, sheol.
The book, itself, is poorly written and does not represent any kind of legitimate research. But, there it is if you feel like it is something you want to look at.
Personally, I don't put much stock in the literal idea of hell; of human beings being thrown into a lake of fire for not accepting Christ. I used to. Then I researched the New Testament scriptures relating to the hope and found that the NT writers all believed that the return of Christ, in power and glory, was imminent. Paul wrote in Romans 1:17 The wrath of God is revealed from heaven...". present tense. IS revealed. I think that's a figure of speech, hyperbole, indicating that it's right around the corner. Preachers keep saying they'll have this retreat or that convention "if the Lord tarries".
Hebrews 10:37 says EXPLICITLY that the Lord will come in "...yet a little while..." and "WILL NOT TARRY" (emphasis added of course) Which means He shoulda done been here by now.
Obviously that prophesy misses the mark, which is why I gave up on the idea of the Bible being the inerrant Word of God. What's this got to to with hell you say?
The prophecies of the imminent wrath and judgment are all tied in to the fear of hell. They're even in the prophecies of John the Baptist. "The axe is laid to the root of the trees" he warned the Pharisees and their ilk; like Paul, in present tense indicating imminent fulfillment of prophecy. Judgment is upon you.
Didn't happen. Those dudes were around to harass Jesus apostles after the Ascension and still around years later to influence James to reject Paul's gospel. But I digress.
I believe the threats about the coming wrath of the Messiah were part of God's great ruse; The Mystery. The feint by which he duped Satan into having the Lamb of God crucified and thereby complete the redemption of mankind. Satan got fooled. In order to make it work, God had to engage in misdirection, just like General Shwartzkoff (sp?) did before the invasion of Iraq. Without all those prophecies about imminent wrath and the coming of the King from heaven, Beezlebub may not have had Jesus killed and we'd still be dead in sin, the property of the grave.
To make a long post short--too late!-- I believe Jesus redeemed us all from hell, including those souls reference in Ecclesiastes and changed the rules. The prophetic warnings were so embedded in the Judaean culture and consciousness that the Apostles couldn't have unlearned it if they tried. Before you accuse me of being arrogant, I remind youns good folks that there is biblical evidence to support the notion that the Apostles didn't fully understand what Jesus had commissioned them to do.
Anyway, I believe the reason He hasn't come back yet is because He doesn't have to. Of course, that makes me something of a Universalist, a label with which I'm not entirely comfortable. But that's how I see it.
I started this thread because I believe that the subject of hell, as a consequence of a life lived separated from God, is a most real subject which was ignored in twi because the leadership did not want to deal with anything that intimated there was an eternal consequence of sin, which the Bible does address in the Old Testament, and the New Testament. A dear friend pastor I met on the Internet sent this out today which has some good food for thought for those who care to look. She has the scripture references set up as links to an internet Bible so you can check out the verses easily and also the context of them. She has the links set to the NIV version but you can change the version and get the verse however is best for you. (I am still of the opinion that the greatest nobility before God comes from receiving the word with readiness of mind and then searching the scriptures daily to see whether those things are so. It's a lifetime of "dailies" that produce the nobiltiy before the Lord I believe.
Hell infinite and eternal
It is interesting that a much higher percentage of people believe in the existence of heaven than believe in the existence of hell. According to the Bible, though, hell is just as real as heaven.
The Bible clearly and explicitly teaches that hell is a real place to which the wicked/unbelieving are sent after death. We have all sinned against God (Romans 3:23). The just punishment for that sin is death (Romans 6:23). Since all of our sin is ultimately against God (Psalm 51:4), and since God is an infinite and eternal Being, the punishment for sin, death, must also be infinite and eternal. Hell is this infinite and eternal death which we have earned because of our sin.
The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as "eternal fire" (Matthew 25:41), "unquenchable fire" (Matthew 3:12), "shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), a place where "the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44-49), a place of "torment" and "fire" (Luke 16:23-24), "everlasting destruction" (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where "the smoke of torment rises forever and ever" (Revelation 14:10-11), and a "lake of burning sulfur" where the wicked are "tormented day and night forever and ever" (Revelation 20:10).
The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46). The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God. Those in hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Psalm 76:10). Those who are in hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5). Yes, hell is real. Yes, hell is a place of torment and punishment that lasts forever and ever, with no end. Praise God that, through Jesus, we can escape this eternal fate (John 3:16, 18, 36).
and another one
"Did Jesus go to hell between His death and resurrection?"
There is a great deal of confusion in regards to this question. This concept comes primarily from the Apostles' Creed, which states, "He descended into hell." There are also a few Scriptures which, depending on how they are translated, describe Jesus going to "hell." In studying this issue, it is important to first understand what the Bible teaches about the realm of the dead.
In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means the "place of the dead" or the "place of departed souls/spirits." The New Testament Greek word that is used for hell is "hades," which also refers to "the place of the dead." Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicate that sheol/hades is a temporary place, where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection and judgment. Revelation 20:11-15 gives a clear distinction between the two.
Hell (the lake of fire) is the permanent and final place of judgment for the lost. Hades is a temporary place. So, no, Jesus did not go to hell because hell is a future realm, only put into effect after the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).
Sheol/hades is a realm with two divisions (Matthew 11:23, 16:18; Luke 10:15, 16:23; Acts 2:27-31), the abodes of the saved and the lost. The abode of the saved was called "paradise" and "Abraham's bosom." The abodes of the saved and the lost are separated by a "great chasm" (Luke 16:26). When Jesus ascended to heaven, He took the occupants of paradise (believers) with Him (Ephesians 4:8-10). The lost side of sheol/hades has remained unchanged. All unbelieving dead go there awaiting their final judgment in the future. Did Jesus go to sheol/hades? Yes, according to Ephesians 4:8-10 and 1 Peter 3:18-20.
Some of the confusion has arisen from such passages as Psalm 16:10-11 as translated in the King James Version, "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption....Thou wilt show me the path of life." "Hell" is not a correct translation of this verse. A correct reading would be "the grave" or "sheol." Jesus said to the thief beside Him, "Today you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). Jesus' body was in the tomb; His soul/spirit went to the "paradise" side of sheol/hades. He then removed all the righteous dead from paradise and took them with Him to heaven. Unfortunately, in many translations of the Bible, translators are not consistent, or correct, in how they translate the Hebrew and Greek words for "sheol," "hades," and "hell."
Some have the viewpoint that Jesus went to "hell" or the suffering side of sheol/hades in order to further be punished for our sins. This idea is completely unbiblical. It was the death of Jesus on the cross and His suffering in our place that sufficiently provided for our redemption. It was His shed blood that effected our own cleansing from sin (1 John 1:7-9). As He hung there on the cross, He took the sin burden of the whole human race upon Himself. He became sin for us: "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God" (2 Corinthians 5:21). This imputation of sin helps us understand Christ's struggle in the garden of Gethsemane with the cup of sin which would be poured out upon Him on the cross.
When Jesus cried upon the cross, "Oh, Father, why have you forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46), it was then that He was separated from the Father because of the sin poured out upon Him. As He gave up His spirit, He said, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit" (Luke 23:46). His suffering in our place was completed. His soul/spirit went to the paradise side of hades. Jesus did not go to hell. Jesus' suffering ended the moment He died. The payment for sin was paid. He then awaited the resurrection of His body and His return to glory in His ascension. Did Jesus go to sheol/hades? Yes.
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Kit Sober
Here is another face to face with Jesus / to Hell and back encounter descriptions. For me this especially was a motivater to reevaluate and upgrade my relationship with the Lord. "A friendly reminder: Time is running out"
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faith no more
i ignore the subject too. it doesent exist.
hell is nothing more than a scare tactic used to frighten the simple into submission.
most,if not all religions have some version of it and it serves the same purpose.a tool used to obtain obediance from the faithful and support($)by fleecing the flock.
however subtle it is a form of fear utilized by evil people to gain easy resources from those who are desperate and of low self esteem.
how despicable.
no one knows what happens when we die.
no one.
and it's perfectly normal to fear this unknown.
unfortunately this fear has become a tool to be expoited by heartless people throughout history who use it for monetary gain and social/politcal engineering.
it's a trap and a damn good one, and half of beating a trap is knowing it exists.the rest is up to you.
just my observations
be free
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cman
those who die know,
fear,
and it taken away
any way there is a lot to fear that stops many from looking at dieing honestly
without fear as you point out
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Human without the bean
Hell. I don't believe in it. I'm not sure whether or not it was a wm teaching I got this from, but, wherever it came from I believe that Hell is a figure of speech meaning separation from God. In the end, believers are with God for eternity. I don't believe there is a place God has pre-destined people who chose not to believe in him stay for eternity. I just don't think that the God of existence would place people in a place where they will suffer for an eternity while we stay in heaven with him.
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Ham
In this existence.. hell is reserved for he last yokel holding the bag..
what is it.
Maybe it is to be in charge. Of something.. of what..
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waysider
I programmed my GPS for Hell and it sent me to Highway 29 and Wierwille Rd.
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Ham
hell.. what is it.
maybe it's trying to perform the same mind numbing ritual, expecting some kind of different miraculous result.
Like eternally buying a lottery ticket or something..
maybe it is the sponsored link. Want to lose weight? No. for an eternity and an eternity, we can click on the link so as to be hustled into into believing we can lose the last half a pound over obesity..
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soul searcher
But Ecclesiates 9:5 says "the dead know nothing."
I don't know if that's true, I'm just sayin'.
Ha ha! (Although it might have taken you to the Long Island Expressway during morning rush hour.)
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waysider
Soul searcher
This is one of the foundational scriptures Wierwille used in his book Are The Dead Alive Now?, which is sometimes referred to here as ADAN. Wierwille, as you may have already guessed, is not really the author of this "book". It's actually a cobbling together of two shorter works by one of the authors from whom VPW was fond of borrowing. There is lots more on GSC regarding that aspect if it interests you.
Anyhow, it's a subject that has been called "soul sleep" by many people outside of The Way. Within The Way, it gave a whole array of special significance to speaking in tongues. For instance, someone's death may be commented on as such: "He's fallen asleep but we'll meet again at the gathering together. I'm sure of this because I heard him speak in tongues"
Here is an excerpt from page 23/24 of ADAN.
Because there is no consciousness in death, there is no awareness of time for the dead person. Thus, the moment of a man's death becomes, in a sense of time for him, the moment of the return of Christ. But, within the dimension of time, the moment of a man's death is neither his gathering together unto Christ nor his resurrection. In a sense of time he does not go immediately to Heaven, but descends into gravedom, sheol.
The book, itself, is poorly written and does not represent any kind of legitimate research. But, there it is if you feel like it is something you want to look at.
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cman
the dead change not
that which is living can die and live again
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sirguessalot
maybe ask a baby covered in napalm
or a fly being eaten by a spider
or a galaxy being gobbled by a nova
or a tyrant being stripped of power
or a disembodied voice screaming from the shadows of an dead old house
regardless, i like how st. ambrose put it...something like "its hell all the way to hell, and heaven all the way to heaven."
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sirguessalot
dang edit limit...oh well
meant to say...
galaxy being gobbled by a black hole
or planet being gobbled by a nova
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Jbarrax
Personally, I don't put much stock in the literal idea of hell; of human beings being thrown into a lake of fire for not accepting Christ. I used to. Then I researched the New Testament scriptures relating to the hope and found that the NT writers all believed that the return of Christ, in power and glory, was imminent. Paul wrote in Romans 1:17 The wrath of God is revealed from heaven...". present tense. IS revealed. I think that's a figure of speech, hyperbole, indicating that it's right around the corner. Preachers keep saying they'll have this retreat or that convention "if the Lord tarries".
Hebrews 10:37 says EXPLICITLY that the Lord will come in "...yet a little while..." and "WILL NOT TARRY" (emphasis added of course) Which means He shoulda done been here by now.
Obviously that prophesy misses the mark, which is why I gave up on the idea of the Bible being the inerrant Word of God. What's this got to to with hell you say?
The prophecies of the imminent wrath and judgment are all tied in to the fear of hell. They're even in the prophecies of John the Baptist. "The axe is laid to the root of the trees" he warned the Pharisees and their ilk; like Paul, in present tense indicating imminent fulfillment of prophecy. Judgment is upon you.
Didn't happen. Those dudes were around to harass Jesus apostles after the Ascension and still around years later to influence James to reject Paul's gospel. But I digress.
I believe the threats about the coming wrath of the Messiah were part of God's great ruse; The Mystery. The feint by which he duped Satan into having the Lamb of God crucified and thereby complete the redemption of mankind. Satan got fooled. In order to make it work, God had to engage in misdirection, just like General Shwartzkoff (sp?) did before the invasion of Iraq. Without all those prophecies about imminent wrath and the coming of the King from heaven, Beezlebub may not have had Jesus killed and we'd still be dead in sin, the property of the grave.
To make a long post short--too late!-- I believe Jesus redeemed us all from hell, including those souls reference in Ecclesiastes and changed the rules. The prophetic warnings were so embedded in the Judaean culture and consciousness that the Apostles couldn't have unlearned it if they tried. Before you accuse me of being arrogant, I remind youns good folks that there is biblical evidence to support the notion that the Apostles didn't fully understand what Jesus had commissioned them to do.
Anyway, I believe the reason He hasn't come back yet is because He doesn't have to. Of course, that makes me something of a Universalist, a label with which I'm not entirely comfortable. But that's how I see it.
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Kit Sober
I started this thread because I believe that the subject of hell, as a consequence of a life lived separated from God, is a most real subject which was ignored in twi because the leadership did not want to deal with anything that intimated there was an eternal consequence of sin, which the Bible does address in the Old Testament, and the New Testament. A dear friend pastor I met on the Internet sent this out today which has some good food for thought for those who care to look. She has the scripture references set up as links to an internet Bible so you can check out the verses easily and also the context of them. She has the links set to the NIV version but you can change the version and get the verse however is best for you. (I am still of the opinion that the greatest nobility before God comes from receiving the word with readiness of mind and then searching the scriptures daily to see whether those things are so. It's a lifetime of "dailies" that produce the nobiltiy before the Lord I believe.
and another one Edited by Kit SoberLink to comment
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Naten00
Love it!
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