When they came out with the brown one, we were instructed to destroy the blue one, for legal purposes I'm sure. I continued to see blue books for years.
For awhile, the limb leader in CT was singing some song to the tune of 'Take me out to the Ballgame"-It turned into a huge reproof from HQ about singing the correct tune, and not being such a rebel.
I could only scratch my head , wondering why they changed "How Firm a Foundation" to the tune of 'Oh Come all ye Faithful"-making it the 'way corps anthem'.
No big. I'm just trying to hit 3000 posts before the end, for no good reason.
the tune Adeste Fideles was found in E&R hymnal 1941 and SBH 1958(Lutheran) to this text. Episcopal Hymnal used Lyons(both 1940 and 1982)
Amazing Grace has been sung to other tunes besides New Britain. These include House of the Rising Sun, 1970's Coca Cola(I want to teach the world to sing), Ballad of Gilligan's Isle. I like Chris Tomlin's My chains are gone, I'm set free. btw, John Newton the slave trader said he was a wretch because of his former profession and the song was his testimony of a repentant and changed heart, something that Wierwille never had, hence "someone" instead of wretch.
Amazing Grace ... John Newton the slave trader said he was a wretch because of his former profession and the song was his testimony of a repentant and changed heart, something that Wierwille never had, hence "someone" instead of wretch.
I always knew this as: "saved a soul like me" - and so it states in the Blue songbook - song no 11.
Why change from "someone" to "a soul"? Some sort of mind/body/spirit theology? Liked the sound better? Who knows?? Only the dead man.
Yes, BA, it was that verse.
I was surprised to hear it. Specially since it mentions "the way" in it.
Yes, Socrates. We all know now it's "saved a wretch" but in TWI speak, it was "saved a soul" for me and to others appears to have been "saved someone."
Can you imagine St Vic calling himself "a wretch"? LOL.
Wierwille said the words were changed to reflect predestination.(ie: we are His masterpiece, before the foundations of the world, etc.) It gave him a personal out from ever having to say he had been a wretch.
Can you imagine St Vic calling himself "a wretch"? LOL.
I can't imagine him thinking of himself as even human. Somebody who invents the hook shot in basketball and fast food, why they have to be a demigod at least.
You guys were all such good li'l Wayfers. I kept all of the songbooks, every version. The oldest small yellow one I have dates back to '68. They're around somewhere. Hey - they're mine, why let someone else tell me what to throw away. Nothing more sacred than one's own trash.
Side rant: some books are better off used as kindling but I never destroy books and have a terrible time getting rid of them. I did very little of the throw away rituals and practices, ever. Every few years I glean through what I've got and relinquish a few to libraries or have sold a few online. I love the oldest ones that have a note or receipt or ancient business card in them or something or other. It's been fun to find stuff like that. :)
TLB already addressed the "How Firm a Foundation"/"Adeste Fideles" point, but I'll answer one of his. The Bookstore sold sheet music to the songs in the brown SATW songbook. It was standard, two-stave, four-voice music and lyrics (UNCHANGED lyrics). Not actual piano or organ scores, though.
You can even change some words to an old song and melody to fit your theology.
But you generally can't change some words to an old song and melody to fit your theology, put them in a songbook without attribution and sell it without the permission of the songwriter.
Unless the words and music are so old they're in the public domain.
Even so, to do so without attribution is to pretend you wrote it. It's dishonest. Conduct unbecoming an organization purportedly holding God's Word to the highest standard.
I never saw much in the way of hymn-writing abilities evidenced during my sojourn with TWI. I don't know if it's because the talent and abilities for that kind of thing weren't there, or (as I mostly suspect) they were squelched by Mr. Wierwille et al. TWI had a real propensity for belittling what they couldn't understand or appreciate within the narrow confines of their theology or world experience.
Okay, now look. I think I may have started a monster here.
Someone questioned why TWI changed the words to "O Come All Ye Faithful" to "How Firm a Foundation".
I responded that I didn't think TWI changed the words, that someone else did that. Then in passing I mentioned that back in the day it was fairly common to put different words to a familiar tune. I was trying to explain why someone else may have appeared to have changed the words to "O Come All Ye Faithful".
I don't think I communicated this very well because I think many thought I was excusing TWI for changing the words to songs without giving credit. I was not, at least I didn't intend to. I apologize for any misunderstanding.
TLB already addressed the "How Firm a Foundation"/"Adeste Fideles" point, but I'll answer one of his. The Bookstore sold sheet music to the songs in the brown SATW songbook. It was standard, two-stave, four-voice music and lyrics (UNCHANGED lyrics). Not actual piano or organ scores, though.
I still have mine around, somewhere.
George
Do you know if the choral 4 part version still exists or if anyone still has copies? If so, pm me about cost. only one I have is by Dorothy Owens.
Do you know if the choral 4 part version still exists or if anyone still has copies? If so, pm me about cost. only one I have is by Dorothy Owens.
I might have a partial set of those songs somewhere, I saw them a few years ago and I would have to dig them out of God knows where to find them. The copies I had weren't even bound, just low quality xerox copies that were sold in the bookstore (figures)
When I left for some reason I bought every last thing that I didnt have, 'just in case' I might want them someday.
Well I dont really, although I do like some of the songs, If and when I find them again you are welcome to them
I doubt the chorale 4 part harmonies are on any of them, they were pretty...um...rustic... in my memory.
Okay, now look. I think I may have started a monster here....
Nah, I understand what your saying. I also think that there is a certain 'folk process' that old songs can go through that can change them over generations...people remember bits and pieces, add new parts or snippets from other songs that they may think go in those songs--melodies may change as memories change--harmonies may change.
My grandmother taught me songs that were probably a little different when she taught me them in her 80's, than when she first heard them in her teens...by the time I sing them to someone when I am in my 80's they will be different yet
A lot of music is based in oral tradition and is passed on that way, not everything is always written down. I think that is just genuine music development and lends a certain interesting something to the history of some songs.. (and gives musicologists a good career too).
Many songs are of unknown origin and come that way--but If a composer and lyricist are known I do think that it is right to credit them and respectful not to change everything that they did on a whimsey
only Way song I have is by Dorothy Owens and Rhoda Wierwille entitled "Jesus, My Savior" which I pasted in the back of the hymnal Hymns for the Family of God, re-issued by Benton Press.
I have a cassette tape around here, someplace, called "Thank You, Dorothy/Thank You, Rhoda". I haven't listened to it in so long, I'm not even sure if I still have a machine that will play it.
They changed the lyrics "because they don't fit with the accuracy of the Word," so I was told - even as a new Wayfer. I accepted it then, sort of.
There are some decent modern songs around - but there seem to be to be a lot more that aren't good. Mixed theology.
Like this one:
Here I Am To Worship
------Chris Tomlin
Light of the world / You stepped down into darkness.
Opened my eyes, let me see.
Beauty that made this heart adore You
Hope of a life spent with You
Here I am to worship, / Here I am to bow down,
Here I am to say that You're my God
You're altogether lovely / Altogether worthy,
Altogether wonderful to me
King of all days / oh, so highly exalted
Glorious in heaven above / Humbly You came
To the earth You created / All for love's sake became poor
Here I am to worship, Here I am to bow down,
Here I am to say that You're my God
You're altogether lovely / All together worthy,
Altogether wonderful to me
I'll never know how much it cost
To see my sin upon that cross (x3)
Here I am to worship, Here I am to bow down,
Here I am to say that You're my God
You're altogether lovely
Altogether worthy, / Altogether wonderful to me
(repeat)
I'll never know how much it cost
to see my sins upon that cross--
And there are many others like it that just leave me cold and wanting to run out of the building.
There's this old song, Holy Holy Holy by Reginald Heber
Holy, holy, holy! Lord God Almighty!
Early in the morning our song shall rise to Thee;
Holy, holy, holy, merciful and mighty!
God in Three Persons, blessèd Trinity!
And my church likes to sing this "variant" of the above song by Gilberto Barreto:
Holy, Holy, Holy / Is the Lord God Almighty
Holy, Holy, Holy / Is the Lord God Almighty
Who was, and is, and is to come.
Holy, Holy, Holy Is the Lord God Almighty
Is the Lord God Almighty.
which is fine words, but then, as the next verse< the church "worship leader" likes to sing:
Jesus, Jesus, Jesus / Is the Lord God Almighty
Jesus, Jesus, Jesus / Is the Lord God Almighty
Who was, and is, and is to come.
Holy, Holy, Holy Is the Lord God Almighty
Is the Lord God Almighty.
The worship leader hasn't got quite as far as:
Ho-ly Spi-rit, Spirit / Is the Lord God Almighty
So I don't mind that some lyrics of some songs have been changed. It just takes me by surprise when I hear different lyrics and sometimes new verses that I never heard in TWI. There seem to be several verses to Amazing Grace that TWI never sang - or maybe some mainstream churches are doing their own add-a-bit.
1st song is by Tim Hughes, NOT Chris Tomlin but both are trintarians. 2nd is by Reginald Heber and tune by John Bachus Dykes(Nicea), you could have changed the last line of both the first and 4th stanza to"God in one person, blessed unity" since the text is in public domain and is no longer copyrighted. Tomlin did write Holy is the Lord, God Almighty(It's rising up all around, it's the anthem of the Lord's renown)
I have a cassette tape around here, someplace, called "Thank You, Dorothy/Thank You, Rhoda". I haven't listened to it in so long, I'm not even sure if I still have a machine that will play it.
lol, still have the vinyl wax record. sorry they were no where close to Bach, Paul Manz, David Cherwien,Donald Busarow, or Timothy Albrecht.
Do you know if the choral 4 part version still exists or if anyone still has copies? If so, pm me about cost. only one I have is by Dorothy Owens.
I'll see if I can find my set. As mstar noted, they were photocopies in loose-leaf, 3-ring binder form. As they were copied from a number of sources, the print and format vary from song to song, but they're all readable. Copyright info was included (I believe). Original TWI songs were also included, though those were in piano score format, not four-voice.
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Broken Arrow
Was it,
"I was a fool to have waundered and strayed.
"Straight is the gate and narrow's the way.
"But I've been changed from the wrong to the right.
"Praise the Lord! I saw the light."?
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
the tune Adeste Fideles was found in E&R hymnal 1941 and SBH 1958(Lutheran) to this text. Episcopal Hymnal used Lyons(both 1940 and 1982)
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Amazing Grace has been sung to other tunes besides New Britain. These include House of the Rising Sun, 1970's Coca Cola(I want to teach the world to sing), Ballad of Gilligan's Isle. I like Chris Tomlin's My chains are gone, I'm set free. btw, John Newton the slave trader said he was a wretch because of his former profession and the song was his testimony of a repentant and changed heart, something that Wierwille never had, hence "someone" instead of wretch.
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Ham
What about the *official* way corps song? I think that was in the blue songbook as well..
I understand they had a few copyright "issues" with this one.
I remember a meeting a long time ago. They passed out sheets with the lyrics to this song, and CAREFULLY collected them at the end of the meeting..
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Ham
here is a link to the original song. Note the author's last name is not Wienerville.
http://my.homewithgod.com/heavenlymidis2/family.html
He didn't hesitate "adapting" it however..
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Twinky
I always knew this as: "saved a soul like me" - and so it states in the Blue songbook - song no 11.
Why change from "someone" to "a soul"? Some sort of mind/body/spirit theology? Liked the sound better? Who knows?? Only the dead man.
Yes, BA, it was that verse.
I was surprised to hear it. Specially since it mentions "the way" in it.
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So_crates
Its actually saved a wretch like me.
Was it changed to a soul because of theology, or maybe Saint Vic felt the original was too harsh?
SoCrates
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Twinky
Yes, Socrates. We all know now it's "saved a wretch" but in TWI speak, it was "saved a soul" for me and to others appears to have been "saved someone."
Can you imagine St Vic calling himself "a wretch"? LOL.
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waysider
Wierwille said the words were changed to reflect predestination.(ie: we are His masterpiece, before the foundations of the world, etc.) It gave him a personal out from ever having to say he had been a wretch.
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outintexas
The first time I heard A Mighty Fortress Is Our God, I thought, "Hey, this is the theme from Davey & Goliath!"
http://www.hymnsite.com/lyrics/umh110.sht
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So_crates
I can't imagine him thinking of himself as even human. Somebody who invents the hook shot in basketball and fast food, why they have to be a demigod at least.
SoCrates
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chockfull
The original had way too much humility.
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Twinky
All praise to Him Who reigns above
In majesty supreme,
Who gave His farm for man to lie,
That he might man redeem!
Refrain
Blessèd be the Name! Blessèd be the Name!
Blessèd be the Name of Doc Vic!
Blessèd be the Name! Blessèd be the Name!
Blessèd be the Name of Doc Vic!
His Name above all names shall stand,
Exalted more and more,
At God the Father’s own right hand,
Where angel hosts adore.
Refrain
Redeemer, Teacher, Friend of none
Once ruined by the fall,
Thou hast devised enslavement’s plan,
For Thou hast lied for all.
Refrain
====and here's a verse that didn't appear in On the Way====
His Name shall be the Counselor,
The mighty Prince of Peace,
Of all earth’s kingdoms Conqueror,
Whose reign shall never cease.
Refrain
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socks
You guys were all such good li'l Wayfers. I kept all of the songbooks, every version. The oldest small yellow one I have dates back to '68. They're around somewhere. Hey - they're mine, why let someone else tell me what to throw away. Nothing more sacred than one's own trash.
Side rant: some books are better off used as kindling but I never destroy books and have a terrible time getting rid of them. I did very little of the throw away rituals and practices, ever. Every few years I glean through what I've got and relinquish a few to libraries or have sold a few online. I love the oldest ones that have a note or receipt or ancient business card in them or something or other. It's been fun to find stuff like that. :)
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GeorgeStGeorge
TLB already addressed the "How Firm a Foundation"/"Adeste Fideles" point, but I'll answer one of his. The Bookstore sold sheet music to the songs in the brown SATW songbook. It was standard, two-stave, four-voice music and lyrics (UNCHANGED lyrics). Not actual piano or organ scores, though.
I still have mine around, somewhere.
George
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Art Clokey was a Lutheran and was asked by Lutheran Church in America to produce short annimation with moral for the storyline.
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Kevlar2000
You can put new words to an old melody.
You can use old words with a new melody.
You can even change some words to an old song and melody to fit your theology.
But you generally can't change some words to an old song and melody to fit your theology, put them in a songbook without attribution and sell it without the permission of the songwriter.
Unless the words and music are so old they're in the public domain.
Even so, to do so without attribution is to pretend you wrote it. It's dishonest. Conduct unbecoming an organization purportedly holding God's Word to the highest standard.
I never saw much in the way of hymn-writing abilities evidenced during my sojourn with TWI. I don't know if it's because the talent and abilities for that kind of thing weren't there, or (as I mostly suspect) they were squelched by Mr. Wierwille et al. TWI had a real propensity for belittling what they couldn't understand or appreciate within the narrow confines of their theology or world experience.
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Broken Arrow
Okay, now look. I think I may have started a monster here.
Someone questioned why TWI changed the words to "O Come All Ye Faithful" to "How Firm a Foundation".
I responded that I didn't think TWI changed the words, that someone else did that. Then in passing I mentioned that back in the day it was fairly common to put different words to a familiar tune. I was trying to explain why someone else may have appeared to have changed the words to "O Come All Ye Faithful".
I don't think I communicated this very well because I think many thought I was excusing TWI for changing the words to songs without giving credit. I was not, at least I didn't intend to. I apologize for any misunderstanding.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Do you know if the choral 4 part version still exists or if anyone still has copies? If so, pm me about cost. only one I have is by Dorothy Owens.
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mstar1
I might have a partial set of those songs somewhere, I saw them a few years ago and I would have to dig them out of God knows where to find them. The copies I had weren't even bound, just low quality xerox copies that were sold in the bookstore (figures)
When I left for some reason I bought every last thing that I didnt have, 'just in case' I might want them someday.
Well I dont really, although I do like some of the songs, If and when I find them again you are welcome to them
I doubt the chorale 4 part harmonies are on any of them, they were pretty...um...rustic... in my memory.
Nah, I understand what your saying. I also think that there is a certain 'folk process' that old songs can go through that can change them over generations...people remember bits and pieces, add new parts or snippets from other songs that they may think go in those songs--melodies may change as memories change--harmonies may change.
My grandmother taught me songs that were probably a little different when she taught me them in her 80's, than when she first heard them in her teens...by the time I sing them to someone when I am in my 80's they will be different yet
A lot of music is based in oral tradition and is passed on that way, not everything is always written down. I think that is just genuine music development and lends a certain interesting something to the history of some songs.. (and gives musicologists a good career too).
Many songs are of unknown origin and come that way--but If a composer and lyricist are known I do think that it is right to credit them and respectful not to change everything that they did on a whimsey
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
only Way song I have is by Dorothy Owens and Rhoda Wierwille entitled "Jesus, My Savior" which I pasted in the back of the hymnal Hymns for the Family of God, re-issued by Benton Press.
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waysider
I have a cassette tape around here, someplace, called "Thank You, Dorothy/Thank You, Rhoda". I haven't listened to it in so long, I'm not even sure if I still have a machine that will play it.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
1st song is by Tim Hughes, NOT Chris Tomlin but both are trintarians. 2nd is by Reginald Heber and tune by John Bachus Dykes(Nicea), you could have changed the last line of both the first and 4th stanza to"God in one person, blessed unity" since the text is in public domain and is no longer copyrighted. Tomlin did write Holy is the Lord, God Almighty(It's rising up all around, it's the anthem of the Lord's renown)
lol, still have the vinyl wax record. sorry they were no where close to Bach, Paul Manz, David Cherwien,Donald Busarow, or Timothy Albrecht.
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GeorgeStGeorge
I'll see if I can find my set. As mstar noted, they were photocopies in loose-leaf, 3-ring binder form. As they were copied from a number of sources, the print and format vary from song to song, but they're all readable. Copyright info was included (I believe). Original TWI songs were also included, though those were in piano score format, not four-voice.
George
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