Jesus did tell the young rich guy to sell all he had and take up his cross and follow Jesus. This guy needed healing of a different sort.
That book 'the Rescue' by Dennis McGee had a guy who was crippled get his healing when he jumped in a river to prevent someone else from drowning.
Job got his deliverance when he prayed for his 3 friends.
Most sports rehab involves progressive physical exercise.
I agree that the sick need love. Without that everything else isn't going to be near as effective. According to that long presentation at ROA '77, Howard Allen got his healing after all else failed, all else included home remedies, much medical attention, much prayer, and much discouragement when it looked like HA would remain in a semi vegetative state for the rest of his life. His marbles started to come back to him after they just sat him at his office desk for hours a day over 2 weeks or so. A place where he would be reminded of work. Interesting.
This is exactly why I STILL have problems taking a sick day at work...
And due to twi's idea of "healing" for my husband during WD when he got food poisoning (which was his fault, of course, because he should have gotten revelation that the food was bad.). His WD coordinator tried to force his finger down his throat to make him puke based on "revelation" he got from "God." He was sick for months, and has still not completely regained all of his strength.
On top of that violation of his person, he was also "strongly encouraged" to get back to work "moving the Word" so he could fulfill his commitment.
He just got sicker and sicker while he tried to push through it.
He just got sicker and sicker while he tried to push through it.
Jerks.
Which underscores that the way international has no clue about revelation and/or healing. Oh - but they sell the advanced class with the promise that they will "teach" the new students "how" to do these things. Then of course once you have had the class you should go way disciple to put it all into practice. JJ - your husband's scenario is a prime example of where the way international's teachings lead people.
It can be good for some people to get to work. Take their mind off their problems.
But for most people who aren't well, "proper" healing is needed. Most people know when they really are ill and need help. Ignoring the obvious (though a TWI strong point) and burying one's head in the sand simply gets sand in the ears. Ah! That's why people at TWI can't really hear what's going on...ears full of sand
And also, working in a reasonable environment certainly does help keep one healthy. Healthy mind.
TWI isn't any good at all when it comes to dealing with illness caused by worry and stress - which isn't surprising, since they are prime stressors and motivate through fear as much as anything.
Jesus did tell the young rich guy to sell all he had and take up his cross and follow Jesus. This guy needed healing of a different sort.
Is there a reason to consider that a "healing" other than your desire to shoehorn it into
a discussion it does not relate to? The verses say nothing about that being a "healing."
Chapter and verse, please...
That book 'the Rescue' by Dennis McGee had a guy who was crippled get his healing when he jumped in a river to prevent someone else from drowning.
Naaman was healed after washing in the Jordan 7 times. Jesus healed a man's eyes with spit, clay and prayer.
Nothing indicates any of these is any sort of "rule." They also have nothing to do with twi insisting that
going back to work promotes healing.
Job got his deliverance when he prayed for his 3 friends.
Which relates to twi saying going back to work promites healing HOW?
Most sports rehab involves progressive physical exercise.
AFTER a muscle has been healed (a disease removed, damage removed), a professional will often
recommend using the muscle again, in slow increments that increase, because that's how a muscle
gets strong.
Few people have difficulty telling the difference between exercise AFTER healing with a requirement
to exercise FOR healing.
I agree that the sick need love. Without that everything else isn't going to be near as effective.
I'm glad we agree on something.
According to that long presentation at ROA '77, Howard Allen got his healing after all else failed, all else included home remedies, much medical attention, much prayer, and much discouragement when it looked like HA would remain in a semi vegetative state for the rest of his life. His marbles started to come back to him after they just sat him at his office desk for hours a day over 2 weeks or so. A place where he would be reminded of work. Interesting.
Correlation does not equal causation.
Presuming we were even TOLD THE TRUTH (when it comes to twi, that's a big leap),
then Howard was left alone for long periods, and eventually his wits returned.
Since he was left alone in his office, you're assuming that the office has anything to do with the recovery.
If he'd rested in bed, he probably would have recovered exactly the same.
(Personally, I think some minimum exposure to input was beneficial, but that could easily be done
anywhere.)
A lab experiment showed birds were fed randomly, and they began "religiously" performing "superstitious"
behavior. The reason was that they were connecting what they had done at the moment the food was given
with the food being given. So, they kept repeating those actions to get the food to return.
Of course, the actions had nothing to do with the food arriving-that was a complete coincidence.
Likewise, correlation does not equal causation. Just because 2 events happen together does not
mean one caused the other. More people get frostbite when sales of hot chocolate go up.
Does the hot chocolate cause the frostbite? No, the hot chocolate sales go up when the weather
gets cold....
Confusing correlation with causation is sloppy thinking.
BTW, I could swear twi credited some sort of amazing recovery for Howard to some kind of beet
juice or molasses or something. Is that the same incident, or was the man prone to all sorts
This is exactly why I STILL have problems taking a sick day at work...
And due to twi's idea of "healing" for my husband during WD when he got food poisoning (which was his fault, of course, because he should have gotten revelation that the food was bad.). His WD coordinator tried to force his finger down his throat to make him puke based on "revelation" he got from "God." He was sick for months, and has still not completely regained all of his strength.
On top of that violation of his person, he was also "strongly encouraged" to get back to work "moving the Word" so he could fulfill his commitment.
He just got sicker and sicker while he tried to push through it.
Jerks.
Any unbeliever who has even a basic understanding of health would tell someone who was recovering from
food poisoning to do the following, which work for most situations that don't require more serious medical
care or specialized care:
A) REST
B) stay warm
C) stay clean
D) get nutrition
Those promote the body's natural healing systems.
(Rest allows the body time to work, staying warm ensures infections won't set in, staying clean will keep
away opportunistic infections, and good nutrition gives the body the building blocks to rebuild its health.
Of course, twi promoted- and probably still promotes- avoiding rest because you can't slave for them
while you're resting. Last I heard, the food at hq for most people was inadequate in both amount and
nutritional requirements, too. But it's what twi could get cheaply, so there you go.
My last year in-residence at hallowed grounds "way international" I was sick for a few weeks, went to "third aid" and finally was allowed to see Mrs. Wierwille (a registered nurse, I think). With her "worldly training" and her close relationship with God, revelation, praying with me, etc. she prescribed a "Raw Potato!" Standard Revelation back then. A few days later with over 103 fever I went to a real doctor, who took one look at me, listened to my lungs and knew I was very ill. He sent me to the hospital where I was quickly diagnosed with pneumonia. I then spent a week in the hospital receiving anti-biotics and breathing treatments. I got better!!! My husband got chewed out for our lack of believing!
A few months later at Emporia, S-ra Wierwi..e got sick and had to be hospitalized. She spent about a week in the hospital as well I think. Only with S-ra we had 24 hours of prayer, and Ger-ld Wr-nn chastised us for not "believing big enough" for our Corps sister. It was our fault that she wasn't getting healed quick enough. He must have been getting pressured by Wi-rwille!
Yes, I definitely believe in the "miracle" we call modern medicine.
There was an outbreak of the mosquito-borne virus which causes St. Louis encephalitis, in the geographic area and at the same time, that H.A. became ill. There is a good likelihood that this was the cause of his malady. H.A. was given homeopathic treatments along with the more conventional treatments he received. The protocol for treatment includes rest, not work. Way leadership may have "said" he worked his way back to health but, that defies common knowledge of how recovery from encephalitis is typically achieved
I know this is anecdotal evidence, and I don't offer it as a means of excusing the get to work prescription. But I do believe that sometimes, when you've prayed for healing, the only thing getting in the way is the mind's natural preoccupation with the state of the body.
I mentioned an anecdote. Here it is.
On Christmas break from college late December of '82, I was all alone in my apartment eating on a HUGE candy cane from my stocking. I kept taking bites and, after a few hours, I had an enormous bellyache; abdominal cramps actually. I did "first aid of course" and kept trying to picture myself well. But the cramps were quite a distraction.
After a short time, I received a visit from someone I was trying to "undershepherd" who had some...unorthodox beliefs. I engaged him in debate trying to get him to see the error of his ways. It was a fairly intense conversation as they usually were. After a few minutes of this, I realized the cramps were gone and I was healed.
Did the visit cure me? No. Did "speaking the Word" cure me? Maybe. I believe what really happened was that the visit distracted me long enough for faith to kick in and God was able to do his thing.
I know not all of you will accept that, but that's what happened and that's my understanding of it. I have also received a miraculous healing at the hands of my lovely wife Deborah, but that's another story.
His marbles started to come back to him after they just sat him at his office desk for hours a day over 2 weeks or so. A place where he would be reminded of work. Interesting.
Yes, very interesting.
I question, did his "marbles" really come back..
yeah. Put the practically non-responsive vegetable in his "place".
and what was that?
sorry.. just a few questions..
I know this is anecdotal evidence, and I don't offer it as a means of excusing the get to work prescription. But I do believe that sometimes, when you've prayed for healing, the only thing getting in the way is the mind's natural preoccupation with the state of the body.
I mentioned an anecdote. Here it is.
On Christmas break from college late December of '82, I was all alone in my apartment eating on a HUGE candy cane from my stocking. I kept taking bites and, after a few hours, I had an enormous bellyache; abdominal cramps actually. I did "first aid of course" and kept trying to picture myself well. But the cramps were quite a distraction.
After a short time, I received a visit from someone I was trying to "undershepherd" who had some...unorthodox beliefs. I engaged him in debate trying to get him to see the error of his ways. It was a fairly intense conversation as they usually were. After a few minutes of this, I realized the cramps were gone and I was healed.
Did the visit cure me? No. Did "speaking the Word" cure me? Maybe. I believe what really happened was that the visit distracted me long enough for faith to kick in and God was able to do his thing.
I know not all of you will accept that, but that's what happened and that's my understanding of it. I have also received a miraculous healing at the hands of my lovely wife Deborah, but that's another story.
I guess my point is TWI and the offshoots have it wrong when it comes to all the formulas. Jesus walked with God and healed multitudes of people at a sitting. It was faith based. But they like to quote Job, and other instances that are vast minority to what Jesus did. In my opinion, these organizations do not have healing figured out even though individuals have been healed from time to time - which I think is awesome. On the other hand, and in the larger picture, people have been hurt following TWI's teachings on healing.
quote: Likewise, correlation does not equal causation. Just because 2 events happen together does not
mean one caused the other. More people get frostbite when sales of hot chocolate go up.
Does the hot chocolate cause the frostbite? No, the hot chocolate sales go up when the weather
gets cold....
Yes, and just because I posted something that doesn't agree with "GSC doctrine" 4 posts before you, in typical fashion, post a venemous response to it without reasonable provocation, doesn't mean that the 2 are related. Just a coincidence.
I know this is anecdotal evidence, and I don't offer it as a means of excusing the get to work prescription. But I do believe that sometimes, when you've prayed for healing, the only thing getting in the way is the mind's natural preoccupation with the state of the body.
I mentioned an anecdote. Here it is.
On Christmas break from college late December of '82, I was all alone in my apartment eating on a HUGE candy cane from my stocking. I kept taking bites and, after a few hours, I had an enormous bellyache; abdominal cramps actually. I did "first aid of course" and kept trying to picture myself well. But the cramps were quite a distraction.
After a short time, I received a visit from someone I was trying to "undershepherd" who had some...unorthodox beliefs. I engaged him in debate trying to get him to see the error of his ways. It was a fairly intense conversation as they usually were. After a few minutes of this, I realized the cramps were gone and I was healed.
Did the visit cure me? No. Did "speaking the Word" cure me? Maybe. I believe what really happened was that the visit distracted me long enough for faith to kick in and God was able to do his thing.
I know not all of you will accept that, but that's what happened and that's my understanding of it. I have also received a miraculous healing at the hands of my lovely wife Deborah, but that's another story.
My own anecdote: I was at a Baseball game and ate a hot dog, beer and some other crap and like you had extremely bad cramps. I actually had to leave my seat and walk around for awhile. I didn't try to picture myself "well" or speak the word to my friend or do any of the things that would allow faith to kick in so that God was able to do his thing. Cramps usually go away on their own, and sure enough after an inning or two, that's exactly what happened. Can't remember who won the baseball game.
In 1996 I had a situation. My right thigh had pain. Didn't go to a doctor. Some said it was my sciatic nerve. But I couldn't sit down for longer than 1/2 hour. Didn't affect my job. I had to sit near the rear or near an aisle at teachings. But in August of that year we went to a family camp put on by Vince Finnegan, Glen Post and others at Lake George in NY state. There were tapes you could buy. One such was by Sanghat Baines (sp) on the topic of healing.
He kept repeating that healing is a right to the believer; that we can claim it and expect it; that this is OK with God. Usually when I have symptoms of something I pray and take whatever medicine I'm comfortable with (not necessarily in that order). I take Ibuprofin for muscle pain, Aleve for headaches, and coffee and beer for all others. But for something more serious that won't go away, like the pain in my thigh, I have to make decisions.
I listened to the Sanghat Baines tape a time or 2 and I was driving to work after a particularly bad day with this pain. I got really po'd while driving and screamed at God in prayer. I wasn't mad at God, just frustrated with the situation. That day was so so, but after that the discomfort seemed to gradually go away. Never been back.
If that hadn't happened I'd have eventually gone to a doctor. I see no shame in that or in what I did.
Whoever posted that someone by "revelation" stuck their finger down your husband's throat. That's awful; you probably could have sued the person, if not twi for that.
I worked for the physician at Indiana University Medical Center where HA was treated. I was not a PFAL grad and was not interested in their mumbo-jumbo. He did in fact have some kind of dread and loathsome disease, and they did give him blackstrap molasses and various raw juices, spun out by a centrifugal or some exotic kind of juicer by the Lynns. I think raw beet juice is good for building up hemoglobin, as beets have iron in them.
I don't know what else; I was certainly not privy to his medical records as dictation on the Powers That Be never crossed my desk, nor would I repeat anything if it did as even then I had a little integrity.
It probably was a miracle the man survived. TWI and the molasses and beet juice got all the glory. And that brings me to a point: How come when someone got well, God didn't get the glory, TWI did? And if that ill person died, someone else, the family, the devil, whoever, got blamed.
My own anecdote: I was at a Baseball game and ate a hot dog, beer and some other crap and like you had extremely bad cramps. I actually had to leave my seat and walk around for awhile. I didn't try to picture myself "well" or speak the word to my friend or do any of the things that would allow faith to kick in so that God was able to do his thing. Cramps usually go away on their own, and sure enough after an inning or two, that's exactly what happened. Can't remember who won the baseball game.
True. My cramps had been intense and constant for a couple of hours. The visitor came by and, within ten minutes they were completely gone. That's not how it usually works.
...And that brings me to a point: How come when someone got well, God didn't get the glory, TWI did? And if that ill person died, someone else, the family, the devil, whoever, got blamed.
People die. It's unfortunate, but it's true.
I think that's the crux of the matter. The problem with--well one of the problems--with TWI's take on the law of believing was that God didn't get glorified for blessing and healing people. That's completely contrary to the lessons of Scripture. It undercuts gratitude and promotes carnality, imho.
And the automatic condemnation of the sufferer for being ill just turns it into a double edged sword. People shouldn't be browbeaten for being sick or getting injured. They should be helped, loved, and nurtured. VP said this on occasion, but the ministry as a whole failed to walk the talk.
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Kit Sober
And going to doctors is a symptom of unbelief. (this has taken me years to overcome)
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johniam
Jesus did tell the young rich guy to sell all he had and take up his cross and follow Jesus. This guy needed healing of a different sort.
That book 'the Rescue' by Dennis McGee had a guy who was crippled get his healing when he jumped in a river to prevent someone else from drowning.
Job got his deliverance when he prayed for his 3 friends.
Most sports rehab involves progressive physical exercise.
I agree that the sick need love. Without that everything else isn't going to be near as effective. According to that long presentation at ROA '77, Howard Allen got his healing after all else failed, all else included home remedies, much medical attention, much prayer, and much discouragement when it looked like HA would remain in a semi vegetative state for the rest of his life. His marbles started to come back to him after they just sat him at his office desk for hours a day over 2 weeks or so. A place where he would be reminded of work. Interesting.
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JavaJane
This is exactly why I STILL have problems taking a sick day at work...
And due to twi's idea of "healing" for my husband during WD when he got food poisoning (which was his fault, of course, because he should have gotten revelation that the food was bad.). His WD coordinator tried to force his finger down his throat to make him puke based on "revelation" he got from "God." He was sick for months, and has still not completely regained all of his strength.
On top of that violation of his person, he was also "strongly encouraged" to get back to work "moving the Word" so he could fulfill his commitment.
He just got sicker and sicker while he tried to push through it.
Jerks.
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OldSkool
Which underscores that the way international has no clue about revelation and/or healing. Oh - but they sell the advanced class with the promise that they will "teach" the new students "how" to do these things. Then of course once you have had the class you should go way disciple to put it all into practice. JJ - your husband's scenario is a prime example of where the way international's teachings lead people.
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Twinky
It can be good for some people to get to work. Take their mind off their problems.
But for most people who aren't well, "proper" healing is needed. Most people know when they really are ill and need help. Ignoring the obvious (though a TWI strong point) and burying one's head in the sand simply gets sand in the ears. Ah! That's why people at TWI can't really hear what's going on...ears full of sand
And also, working in a reasonable environment certainly does help keep one healthy. Healthy mind.
TWI isn't any good at all when it comes to dealing with illness caused by worry and stress - which isn't surprising, since they are prime stressors and motivate through fear as much as anything.
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WordWolf
Is there a reason to consider that a "healing" other than your desire to shoehorn it into
a discussion it does not relate to? The verses say nothing about that being a "healing."
Chapter and verse, please...
Naaman was healed after washing in the Jordan 7 times. Jesus healed a man's eyes with spit, clay and prayer.
Nothing indicates any of these is any sort of "rule." They also have nothing to do with twi insisting that
going back to work promotes healing.
Which relates to twi saying going back to work promites healing HOW?
AFTER a muscle has been healed (a disease removed, damage removed), a professional will often
recommend using the muscle again, in slow increments that increase, because that's how a muscle
gets strong.
Few people have difficulty telling the difference between exercise AFTER healing with a requirement
to exercise FOR healing.
I'm glad we agree on something.
Correlation does not equal causation.
Presuming we were even TOLD THE TRUTH (when it comes to twi, that's a big leap),
then Howard was left alone for long periods, and eventually his wits returned.
Since he was left alone in his office, you're assuming that the office has anything to do with the recovery.
If he'd rested in bed, he probably would have recovered exactly the same.
(Personally, I think some minimum exposure to input was beneficial, but that could easily be done
anywhere.)
A lab experiment showed birds were fed randomly, and they began "religiously" performing "superstitious"
behavior. The reason was that they were connecting what they had done at the moment the food was given
with the food being given. So, they kept repeating those actions to get the food to return.
Of course, the actions had nothing to do with the food arriving-that was a complete coincidence.
Likewise, correlation does not equal causation. Just because 2 events happen together does not
mean one caused the other. More people get frostbite when sales of hot chocolate go up.
Does the hot chocolate cause the frostbite? No, the hot chocolate sales go up when the weather
gets cold....
Confusing correlation with causation is sloppy thinking.
BTW, I could swear twi credited some sort of amazing recovery for Howard to some kind of beet
juice or molasses or something. Is that the same incident, or was the man prone to all sorts
of mysterious illnesses and recoveries?
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WordWolf
Any unbeliever who has even a basic understanding of health would tell someone who was recovering from
food poisoning to do the following, which work for most situations that don't require more serious medical
care or specialized care:
A) REST
B) stay warm
C) stay clean
D) get nutrition
Those promote the body's natural healing systems.
(Rest allows the body time to work, staying warm ensures infections won't set in, staying clean will keep
away opportunistic infections, and good nutrition gives the body the building blocks to rebuild its health.
Of course, twi promoted- and probably still promotes- avoiding rest because you can't slave for them
while you're resting. Last I heard, the food at hq for most people was inadequate in both amount and
nutritional requirements, too. But it's what twi could get cheaply, so there you go.
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WordWolf
Didn't Jesus himself select a physician, Luke, as one of his disciples?
I don't recall any incident recorded where Jesus told him it was a rubbish field.
Does anyone recall such an incident?
I do know that a number of sound medical principles are recorded in the Mosaic Law,
and were eventually adopted by the medical profession.
I notice the people at the top of twi never seemed to refuse medical attention in favor
of prayer or some alternative method. vpw himself wore glasses the entire time all of us
had heard of him, yet he was supposedly the standard of believing and got all sorts of
results. Years to operate, and he never got 20/20 vision back- and lost an eye to disease.
(He didn't refuse medical attention for that, either.)
According to his own account, vpw claimed he never got sick A DAY IN HIS LIFE,
and never TOOK AN ASPIRIN A DAY IN HIS LIFE.
Me, I figure he was saying a tremendous lie both times.
Everything we COULD measure showed he was just another guy who got sick, got hurt,
got old, etc, just like everyone else, and was unable to use his "believing" to prevent
any of it.
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Ham
That is the whole point, isn't it friend..
well, most of it.
I was listening to the nightly news here..
they were actually claiming. I'll come to that in a moment..
so those who went to the theater were less worried, less stressed.
Their recommendation? Go to the theater. You'll have less stress and worries..
no kidding..
No mention about why those who had the what is the word..
had the luxury to have extra money to throw away? There's a more accurate term. I just cant' remember it at the moment..
Disposable income! That's it..
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taxicab
"Want Healing?"
-Find yourself a good doctor!
My last year in-residence at hallowed grounds "way international" I was sick for a few weeks, went to "third aid" and finally was allowed to see Mrs. Wierwille (a registered nurse, I think). With her "worldly training" and her close relationship with God, revelation, praying with me, etc. she prescribed a "Raw Potato!" Standard Revelation back then. A few days later with over 103 fever I went to a real doctor, who took one look at me, listened to my lungs and knew I was very ill. He sent me to the hospital where I was quickly diagnosed with pneumonia. I then spent a week in the hospital receiving anti-biotics and breathing treatments. I got better!!! My husband got chewed out for our lack of believing!
A few months later at Emporia, S-ra Wierwi..e got sick and had to be hospitalized. She spent about a week in the hospital as well I think. Only with S-ra we had 24 hours of prayer, and Ger-ld Wr-nn chastised us for not "believing big enough" for our Corps sister. It was our fault that she wasn't getting healed quick enough. He must have been getting pressured by Wi-rwille!
Yes, I definitely believe in the "miracle" we call modern medicine.
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waysider
There was an outbreak of the mosquito-borne virus which causes St. Louis encephalitis, in the geographic area and at the same time, that H.A. became ill. There is a good likelihood that this was the cause of his malady. H.A. was given homeopathic treatments along with the more conventional treatments he received. The protocol for treatment includes rest, not work. Way leadership may have "said" he worked his way back to health but, that defies common knowledge of how recovery from encephalitis is typically achieved
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Ham
before that. He got his brains sc*ewed out by a (supposed) witch.
I dunno.
It's fiction. But I appreciate fiction..
how much of that novel embraced reality.. I dunno.
Well.. I'd love to be Napolean..
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Jbarrax
I know this is anecdotal evidence, and I don't offer it as a means of excusing the get to work prescription. But I do believe that sometimes, when you've prayed for healing, the only thing getting in the way is the mind's natural preoccupation with the state of the body.
I mentioned an anecdote. Here it is.
On Christmas break from college late December of '82, I was all alone in my apartment eating on a HUGE candy cane from my stocking. I kept taking bites and, after a few hours, I had an enormous bellyache; abdominal cramps actually. I did "first aid of course" and kept trying to picture myself well. But the cramps were quite a distraction.
After a short time, I received a visit from someone I was trying to "undershepherd" who had some...unorthodox beliefs. I engaged him in debate trying to get him to see the error of his ways. It was a fairly intense conversation as they usually were. After a few minutes of this, I realized the cramps were gone and I was healed.
Did the visit cure me? No. Did "speaking the Word" cure me? Maybe. I believe what really happened was that the visit distracted me long enough for faith to kick in and God was able to do his thing.
I know not all of you will accept that, but that's what happened and that's my understanding of it. I have also received a miraculous healing at the hands of my lovely wife Deborah, but that's another story.
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Ham
Yes, very interesting.
I question, did his "marbles" really come back..
yeah. Put the practically non-responsive vegetable in his "place".
and what was that?
sorry.. just a few questions..
very, very.. cool, friend..
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waysider
The Rescue.... It's a BOOK, fer cryin' out loud!
We're supposed to base life and death decisions on a literary work???
That sounds awfully risky to me.
But, what do I know?
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Ham
well, you know everything.. as I do..
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OldSkool
I guess my point is TWI and the offshoots have it wrong when it comes to all the formulas. Jesus walked with God and healed multitudes of people at a sitting. It was faith based. But they like to quote Job, and other instances that are vast minority to what Jesus did. In my opinion, these organizations do not have healing figured out even though individuals have been healed from time to time - which I think is awesome. On the other hand, and in the larger picture, people have been hurt following TWI's teachings on healing.
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johniam
quote: Likewise, correlation does not equal causation. Just because 2 events happen together does not
mean one caused the other. More people get frostbite when sales of hot chocolate go up.
Does the hot chocolate cause the frostbite? No, the hot chocolate sales go up when the weather
gets cold....
Yes, and just because I posted something that doesn't agree with "GSC doctrine" 4 posts before you, in typical fashion, post a venemous response to it without reasonable provocation, doesn't mean that the 2 are related. Just a coincidence.
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taxicab
My own anecdote: I was at a Baseball game and ate a hot dog, beer and some other crap and like you had extremely bad cramps. I actually had to leave my seat and walk around for awhile. I didn't try to picture myself "well" or speak the word to my friend or do any of the things that would allow faith to kick in so that God was able to do his thing. Cramps usually go away on their own, and sure enough after an inning or two, that's exactly what happened. Can't remember who won the baseball game.
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johniam
In 1996 I had a situation. My right thigh had pain. Didn't go to a doctor. Some said it was my sciatic nerve. But I couldn't sit down for longer than 1/2 hour. Didn't affect my job. I had to sit near the rear or near an aisle at teachings. But in August of that year we went to a family camp put on by Vince Finnegan, Glen Post and others at Lake George in NY state. There were tapes you could buy. One such was by Sanghat Baines (sp) on the topic of healing.
He kept repeating that healing is a right to the believer; that we can claim it and expect it; that this is OK with God. Usually when I have symptoms of something I pray and take whatever medicine I'm comfortable with (not necessarily in that order). I take Ibuprofin for muscle pain, Aleve for headaches, and coffee and beer for all others. But for something more serious that won't go away, like the pain in my thigh, I have to make decisions.
I listened to the Sanghat Baines tape a time or 2 and I was driving to work after a particularly bad day with this pain. I got really po'd while driving and screamed at God in prayer. I wasn't mad at God, just frustrated with the situation. That day was so so, but after that the discomfort seemed to gradually go away. Never been back.
If that hadn't happened I'd have eventually gone to a doctor. I see no shame in that or in what I did.
Whoever posted that someone by "revelation" stuck their finger down your husband's throat. That's awful; you probably could have sued the person, if not twi for that.
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Watered Garden
I worked for the physician at Indiana University Medical Center where HA was treated. I was not a PFAL grad and was not interested in their mumbo-jumbo. He did in fact have some kind of dread and loathsome disease, and they did give him blackstrap molasses and various raw juices, spun out by a centrifugal or some exotic kind of juicer by the Lynns. I think raw beet juice is good for building up hemoglobin, as beets have iron in them.
I don't know what else; I was certainly not privy to his medical records as dictation on the Powers That Be never crossed my desk, nor would I repeat anything if it did as even then I had a little integrity.
It probably was a miracle the man survived. TWI and the molasses and beet juice got all the glory. And that brings me to a point: How come when someone got well, God didn't get the glory, TWI did? And if that ill person died, someone else, the family, the devil, whoever, got blamed.
People die. It's unfortunate, but it's true.
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Jbarrax
True. My cramps had been intense and constant for a couple of hours. The visitor came by and, within ten minutes they were completely gone. That's not how it usually works.
I think that's the crux of the matter. The problem with--well one of the problems--with TWI's take on the law of believing was that God didn't get glorified for blessing and healing people. That's completely contrary to the lessons of Scripture. It undercuts gratitude and promotes carnality, imho.
And the automatic condemnation of the sufferer for being ill just turns it into a double edged sword. People shouldn't be browbeaten for being sick or getting injured. They should be helped, loved, and nurtured. VP said this on occasion, but the ministry as a whole failed to walk the talk.
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excathedra
interesting watered garden, when did you fall for the mumbo jumbo ?
taxicab -- why the f didn't the potato work for the daughter?
funny and sad thread
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OperaBuff
Way International, heal thyself.
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