So many good memories (and the other ones I forgot). The "Rock" was a rock of my life during twi years, despite the growing wickedness of that place (which I categorically dismissed as being "a lie from the devil"). The "Rock" was the only "vacation" for me and the kids for all those years, and we always looked at the good side of things (there are always nice things to remember because of the friendships and being with people we loved.
Then in post twi years summers here in Reno have Hot August Nights with not only the 50s cars and sock hops but also the kindness of times before the Kennedy assassination (which was the major common memory before 9/11/01) and before computers etc. etc. Also in Reno we got September's Harley Davidson's "Street Vibrations" which brings in more memories of good times. So the Good Lord has kept summers nice full of good times. Plus since twi I've learned a little of integrity and true Christianity from those who really work to live it and my faith has become more firmly founded.
at my church around Labor Day weekend(Friday through Monday) we have Rally Day to start off our Sunday Church School year and to invite neighbors to hear CCM(both live and CD's/DVD's through amps), have hot dogs/hamburgers, ice cream social, and lemonade, and to visit our various ministries booths(musical groups/fine arts, social ministry like night shelter/ food pantry/soup kitchen/meals on wheels, educational classes/bible studies,etc.) plus faith stories/journeys/testifying/testimonials(not typical Lutheran practice). All this plus our 2 worship services on Sundays. If it gets too hot, we move inside the church building. This is our 6th year and ironically this year is called Rock of Ages( based on the hymn , Rita Baloche's song of 10 or more years ago, and husband Paul's Rock of Ages, here I stand). Far better than TWI's answer to rock concert festivals.
Far better than TWI's answer to rock concert festivals.
Call me cynical.....but I've often thought that wierwille, the marketing guru, latched onto the name "Rock of Ages" to draw in the "Rock-n-Roll" youth.
Remember, he chose that verse in Corinthians....."addicted to the ministry of the saints" as the theme verse for the first roa.
But.....was wierwille's roa REALLY about the Lord Jesus, the rock of ages?
I dunno, I would rather feed one of my arms to wild dogs then go sleep in a hot tent in a muddy field for a week in August. The rock was cancelled by the time I came along and I have ALWAYS been REALLY glad!
The first one I went to was in 1972. I didn't have a tent. I ended up just putting my sleeping bag on the ground and crawling in. I guess when you're 21, it doesn't seem so bad. I can't imagine doing that now.
But when I got to RoA, it was as Corps and I slept in a huge tent with who knows how many other Corps women.
And one year I was in a hut thing - were they called Corps-tels? Too many bodies, too hot, too sticky. Ugh. Give me the fresh air of a tent any time.
I quite liked what I saw of the Rock but then I didn't have anything to compare it with. Hard work. Not too much time to explore and find out what was going on.
Thousands of people. From a huge variety of Christian backgrounds. Or maybe no Christian background at all - they just want to be there.
Loads of events, performances, teachings, presentations, stuff going on. Some noisy. Some quieter, more contemplative. There's a camping area for those who want; there's other accommodation ranging from cheap B&B to posh hotels.
I might volunteer...they need stewards on the camp site.
ROA was never like camping to me, but I grew up camping in Montana. I do have some fond ROA memories of meeting up with friends. The year we took our small children wasn't much fun, would have been better to stay home and play in the wading pool.I ahted having to look dressed up. SHeesh, real camping is not fancy dress.
My family does a big Labor Day camp out,we don't make it every year but it is fun. Am not much into crowds though I do enjoy a good band.
The Rock was worth the aggravation because it was an annual opportunity to reconnect with friends you wouldn't see otherwise. My first 3-'75-77, I didn't even plan ahead to camp.I just glommed onto someone elses tent space, and didn't give it a thought. As the 80's rolled by, and everything way became more controlled , rigid, and imo evil, the rock fossilized with the times. I lived in St Marys in '84 -85' (which is crazy enough), and had a nice air conditioned apartment to escape to-which became a mini rock, as everyone I knew used my place to cool off, or sleep over. Just some rambling memories.
The early rocks were a whole different thing. The first three-four years, I showed up on a dirt bike with a change of clothes, an army poncho, and my bible. I slept out on the ground under the stars. If it rained, I'd find a tent with activity inside and call in to see if they had room for one more. I met some great people that way.
Yes, ROA was Wierwille's answer to Woodstock and Christian music festivals like Sonshine(in FL, CA, and Myrtle Beach SC). It is ridiculous to wear fancy dress to evening teachings, though in 1976 Pat F was my date to dance at the Rock where I had my good leisure suit on and she wore nice long dress, but that was the only time the 2 of us dressed up, otherwise shorts and flip-flops. ah, another time and place, who knows? She and other friends made it worthwhile. Now I wish I had roomed with her in her pup tent, but was too much a gentleman
Does anyone know how much money they made off of those things?
One of the last ones I went to was in about 86, by then the tickets were $40,they claimed there were about 20,000 there that year--which is $800,000 or so just in admission fees, that doesnt include food sales, books, "ABS" and whatever else they grabbed from us.
The land was free and the labor was all free. I know they rented the tents and equipment ($100K maybe???)
but I think it may have been a huge cash cow during its peak
For sure a cash cow if you can make people come to it by laying on them a guilt trip if they don't make a Rock trip.
For believers who lived overseas, it was a really big expense, what with air fares and all. Even if a discounted air fare to somewhere frequently visited was available, there were add-on costs to more local airports and the cost of getting from the airport to HQ. To not be able to make it to the Rock was to recognize that the transport expenses were huge, when coming from countries where wages are not at US levels and disposable income may not be much.
One year, some attempt was made in the country where I was living to cater for faithful believers who couldn't afford all that expense. LCM's response: "F*** 'em, if they can't be bothered to get here, they can take care of themselves back at home." (Maybe that was part of a general response more aimed at US believers - but that's how it came down to us, overseas.) Some years, there were offers to pick up Internationals from Dayton or Columbus. But not every year. And sometimes it was just the kindness of staff who recognized the additional difficulties posed for Internationals, and went and collected them anyway.
Out of all the money coming in...wouldn't it have been kind to share a little with the overseas people by covering the small expense of collecting them from an accessible airport? (After all, what was the motor coach for? - not that that was around in my time - but coaches and buses can be hired for a day or a week.)
There wasn't even any help for International Corps whose only means of transportation was flying. So after my WoW year (so part-time wages) I still had to find full air fare back to the Rock. My WoW family clubbed together to give me something towards my expenses, bless 'em. HQ did give me the entrance ticket free and vouchers for food. Big deal.
I didn't think of it at the time, just accepted it.
International outreach? International grab, more like.
For believers who lived overseas, it was a really big expense, what with air fares and all.
IMO.....wierwille and co. could have addressed these issues and alleviated the financial burdens placed on International Corps. But again, a narcissist isn't really all that good in identifying concerns, nor has compassion on others.
In 1982.....after Geer was ordained and sent to Europe, he quickly started implementing policy changes for the international corps and believers. In short, he explicitly informed F1nnegan, the Worldwide Outreach Coordinator, that European corps and believers would, henceforth, attend the ROA every third year.
On one hand, I see the expenses-argument.
On the other hand, I see the Geer power-grab.
Fast forward four more years.....to 1986......and look how Geer marshalled his "back to the Word and Wierwille" mantra via his poop paper. Many threads here at GS detail point-by-point how Geer pulled it off.
In 1982.....after Geer was ordained and sent to Europe, he quickly started implementing policy changes for the international corps and believers. In short, he explicitly informed F1nnegan, the Worldwide Outreach Coordinator, that European corps and believers would, henceforth, attend the ROA every third year.
On one hand, I see the expenses-argument.
On the other hand, I see the Geer power-grab.
What Geer did was decide to institute an annual European get-together. He wanted that to become the venue for (at least) European believers. I went to such an event, in Amsterdam. It was a really great time, marred only by the presence of Geer. Then of course Gartmore was ready and events started happening up there.
And that is a really good idea. Saves unnecessary expense and trekking across the world, and European travel is easy and can be done in many ways to suit time and budget. Enables people with a non-US outlook to meet and deal with the issues they face in a more acceptable manner. Or could have been.
Geer's festival/get-together wouldn't be in midsummer, but was to be in winter (December/Jan).
But that's not how it worked out. It was a power-grab. And even if it weren't a power grab, it could so easily have become a burden on European believers - all have to go to the European event, and then all have to go to the US event.
It still doesn't address transport issues for other overseas believers - in Australia, New Zealand, India, Zaire (who were in fact supported by TWI, yes they were), even Scandinavia, who still have to get over an ocean somewhere. But it did give (or would have given) a choice and perhaps a cheaper option.
Out of all the money coming in...wouldn't it have been kind to share a little with the overseas people by covering the small expense of collecting them from an accessible airport?
Expecting kindness, or service of any kind from TWI?? :biglaugh:
Dont make me choke :) They came with their handout---always
I understand the difficulty for International people but it was no picnic for a lot of Americans either...the 'more than abundant life' in a lot of areas of the US consisted of a part time minimum wage job (which you were expected to ABS from) and a broken down car.
Id scrimp and save all year to come up with 3 or $400 so I could hand it all over at the ROA :wacko:
Id still like to know what they pulled in annually at the Crock, if DWHB or anyone has any figures
hey mstar1!!.......always great to see ya!.............when i left twi, the irs and the justice department spent a combined total of 5 days at my house looking over the copies of roa "books" and other "materials" i had in my possession.........the modus operandi at the time was to keep two sets of books......one for the review of government agencies and auditors etc., and a set of the "real Books"........the roa bookstore sales alone made well over a million dollars in profit on sales, let alone the tickets, camping, hotel "deals", camping fees, profits on food sales, and practically zero labor costs since it was all corps, staff and volunteers that provided the labor........about the only things twi did'nt own were the tents!.....the rest was all donated or purchased at ridiculously low prices for tax write-offs for the various donors and/or renters..................so, the rock profitted in excess of 2-3 million dollars annually by the '80's.........and all that happened by those "books reviews" i mentioned previously, is that twi lost it's tax-exempt privileges for several years........that was it!............sheesh, eh?.............................................................not to mention that the US trunk operated at only an 8-10% cost of the total income of all the limbs.....that's a 90-92% "profit rate" on 40-50 million dollars of income annually until geer and king okie demolished what was left of twi at the end of the 80's............rosie and the gang are still livin' high on the hog on all those profits from the years prior to 1986!..............twi owes us lotsa money!.....LOL!..................................peace.
Double sets of books ... I've heard this before - perhaps from you, DWBH, perhaps from others.
TWI's outstanding honesty and integrity is beyond compare. /sarcasm/
Love the way they set the standard and follow that principle, "Render unto Caesar [or the IRS] what is Caesar's..."
This is that same organization, yes?, that said that ABS must be "donated" from gross income - not that income left after tax - because otherwise one was putting "man" before God, hmm?
Thing is, they could have offset the charitable expenditure against tax anyway.
That's if there'd been any charitable expenditure.
Makes me wonder how much any actual charitable expenditure may have been pumped up.
....so, the rock profitted in excess of 2-3 million dollars annually by the '80's......
......not to mention that the US trunk operated at only an 8-10% cost of the total income of all the limbs.....that's a 90-92% "profit rate" on 40-50 million dollars of income annually ......
.....twi owes us lotsa money!.....LOL!......................
Yowza--I knew it was a huge cash cow, but I had no idea the figures were that large.
If you take into account that a lot of that money came from extremely poor people struggling for basic neccessities it becomes disgusting-
What Geer did was decide to institute an annual European get-together. He wanted that to become the venue for (at least) European believers. I went to such an event, in Amsterdam. It was a really great time, marred only by the presence of Geer. Then of course Gartmore was ready and events started happening up there.
And that is a really good idea. Saves unnecessary expense and trekking across the world, and European travel is easy and can be done in many ways to suit time and budget. Enables people with a non-US outlook to meet and deal with the issues they face in a more acceptable manner. Or could have been.
Geer's festival/get-together wouldn't be in midsummer, but was to be in winter (December/Jan).
But that's not how it worked out. It was a power-grab. And even if it weren't a power grab, it could so easily have become a burden on European believers - all have to go to the European event, and then all have to go to the US event.
It still doesn't address transport issues for other overseas believers - in Australia, New Zealand, India, Zaire (who were in fact supported by TWI, yes they were), even Scandinavia, who still have to get over an ocean somewhere. But it did give (or would have given) a choice and perhaps a cheaper option.
Hey! Here's a thought! How about we have the event and just the people who want to come can attend! Now why didn't I think of that before? Or, we could just not have the event and spend more time building up the local areas. That means that people who live outside of the U.S. stay in their own country!! Wow!! What a thought!
If Wierwille had been born in, say, Munich, very few people in the U.S. would have made the trip to his festival.
Double sets of books ... I've heard this before - perhaps from you, DWBH, perhaps from others.
TWI's outstanding honesty and integrity is beyond compare. /sarcasm/
Love the way they set the standard and follow that principle, "Render unto Caesar [or the IRS] what is Caesar's..."
This is that same organization, yes?, that said that ABS must be "donated" from gross income - not that income left after tax - because otherwise one was putting "man" before God, hmm?
Thing is, they could have offset the charitable expenditure against tax anyway.
That's if there'd been any charitable expenditure.
Makes me wonder how much any actual charitable expenditure may have been pumped up.
TWI's rationale, if I remember correctly, was that the law was meant for the unbelievers and they would quote a verse from Timothy. We at TWI lived on a higher plain above the law, or so it was said. That really translated into follow the law as long as it is convenient. So, yeah, it's okay to fix the books and lie to the government.
Hey! Here's a thought! How about we have the event and just the people who want to come can attend! Now why didn't I think of that before? Or, we could just not have the event and spend more time building up the local areas. That means that people who live outside of the U.S. stay in their own country!! Wow!! What a thought!
If Wierwille had been born in, say, Munich, very few people in the U.S. would have made the trip to his festival.
Not an option, though, for Internationals...we were expected to attend. The mighty US calls.
For such reasons, the US is not seen favorably by overseas countries. However, if compelled (as TWI did) - well ... you just did it.
I don't know how many US believers ever managed to visit Gartmore - was hardly running long enough.
It really would have been much better to build up local expertise, dealing with the local culture, country by country... but TWI never operated that way. "Our way or no way." And it really didn't work in other countries. All that happened is that people were totally put off.
And I agree with you, BA: I really don't think US believers would willingly make the trek regularly, year after year, to such an event. To ... such an event. Even if they did feel obliged to trek long distances across the US to such an event in Ohio.
TWI's rationale, if I remember correctly, was that the law was meant for the unbelievers and they would quote a verse from Timothy. We at TWI lived on a higher plain above the law, or so it was said. That really translated into follow the law as long as it is convenient. So, yeah, it's okay to fix the books and lie to the government.
16 And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men. 17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites? 19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny. 20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? 21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
22 When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.
So what are we seeing here? It's wicked (good word, that, "wicked") to withhold lawful taxes.
Does the IRS, or other countries' governments, lawfully require residents to pay taxes (tribute)? Yep, they sure do. Therefore, should one pay taxes? Yep. 'Fraid so.
I don't see wiggle room here to maintain two sets of books. I'm sure God can cope with only having his share and not a part of Caesar's share also. The choice is : give Caesar (the government) what is rightly due to it; give to God what is rightly due to God. The rest is one's own.
This account appears in Matthew, Mark and Luke. Three times: complete!!
24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
So in keeping two sets of books : who was TWI serving?
(Like verses appear in Matthew and Luke)
But of course - if you discourage (or worse, disallow) the Gospels and looking at the life of Jesus ... hey, what does his example matter, anyway? We live under grace now. Yeah, right.
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Kit Sober
So many good memories (and the other ones I forgot). The "Rock" was a rock of my life during twi years, despite the growing wickedness of that place (which I categorically dismissed as being "a lie from the devil"). The "Rock" was the only "vacation" for me and the kids for all those years, and we always looked at the good side of things (there are always nice things to remember because of the friendships and being with people we loved.
Then in post twi years summers here in Reno have Hot August Nights with not only the 50s cars and sock hops but also the kindness of times before the Kennedy assassination (which was the major common memory before 9/11/01) and before computers etc. etc. Also in Reno we got September's Harley Davidson's "Street Vibrations" which brings in more memories of good times. So the Good Lord has kept summers nice full of good times. Plus since twi I've learned a little of integrity and true Christianity from those who really work to live it and my faith has become more firmly founded.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
at my church around Labor Day weekend(Friday through Monday) we have Rally Day to start off our Sunday Church School year and to invite neighbors to hear CCM(both live and CD's/DVD's through amps), have hot dogs/hamburgers, ice cream social, and lemonade, and to visit our various ministries booths(musical groups/fine arts, social ministry like night shelter/ food pantry/soup kitchen/meals on wheels, educational classes/bible studies,etc.) plus faith stories/journeys/testifying/testimonials(not typical Lutheran practice). All this plus our 2 worship services on Sundays. If it gets too hot, we move inside the church building. This is our 6th year and ironically this year is called Rock of Ages( based on the hymn , Rita Baloche's song of 10 or more years ago, and husband Paul's Rock of Ages, here I stand). Far better than TWI's answer to rock concert festivals.
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skyrider
Call me cynical.....but I've often thought that wierwille, the marketing guru, latched onto the name "Rock of Ages" to draw in the "Rock-n-Roll" youth.
Remember, he chose that verse in Corinthians....."addicted to the ministry of the saints" as the theme verse for the first roa.
But.....was wierwille's roa REALLY about the Lord Jesus, the rock of ages?
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OldSkool
I dunno, I would rather feed one of my arms to wild dogs then go sleep in a hot tent in a muddy field for a week in August. The rock was cancelled by the time I came along and I have ALWAYS been REALLY glad!
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waysider
The first one I went to was in 1972. I didn't have a tent. I ended up just putting my sleeping bag on the ground and crawling in. I guess when you're 21, it doesn't seem so bad. I can't imagine doing that now.
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Twinky
I love camping.
But when I got to RoA, it was as Corps and I slept in a huge tent with who knows how many other Corps women.
And one year I was in a hut thing - were they called Corps-tels? Too many bodies, too hot, too sticky. Ugh. Give me the fresh air of a tent any time.
I quite liked what I saw of the Rock but then I didn't have anything to compare it with. Hard work. Not too much time to explore and find out what was going on.
This might be my venue for this year: Greenbelt
Thousands of people. From a huge variety of Christian backgrounds. Or maybe no Christian background at all - they just want to be there.
Loads of events, performances, teachings, presentations, stuff going on. Some noisy. Some quieter, more contemplative. There's a camping area for those who want; there's other accommodation ranging from cheap B&B to posh hotels.
I might volunteer...they need stewards on the camp site.
Edited: double post. (Why does it do that??)
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Bramble
ROA was never like camping to me, but I grew up camping in Montana. I do have some fond ROA memories of meeting up with friends. The year we took our small children wasn't much fun, would have been better to stay home and play in the wading pool.I ahted having to look dressed up. SHeesh, real camping is not fancy dress.
My family does a big Labor Day camp out,we don't make it every year but it is fun. Am not much into crowds though I do enjoy a good band.
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hiway29
The Rock was worth the aggravation because it was an annual opportunity to reconnect with friends you wouldn't see otherwise. My first 3-'75-77, I didn't even plan ahead to camp.I just glommed onto someone elses tent space, and didn't give it a thought. As the 80's rolled by, and everything way became more controlled , rigid, and imo evil, the rock fossilized with the times. I lived in St Marys in '84 -85' (which is crazy enough), and had a nice air conditioned apartment to escape to-which became a mini rock, as everyone I knew used my place to cool off, or sleep over. Just some rambling memories.
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dabobbada
Amen hiway,
The early rocks were a whole different thing. The first three-four years, I showed up on a dirt bike with a change of clothes, an army poncho, and my bible. I slept out on the ground under the stars. If it rained, I'd find a tent with activity inside and call in to see if they had room for one more. I met some great people that way.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Yes, ROA was Wierwille's answer to Woodstock and Christian music festivals like Sonshine(in FL, CA, and Myrtle Beach SC). It is ridiculous to wear fancy dress to evening teachings, though in 1976 Pat F was my date to dance at the Rock where I had my good leisure suit on and she wore nice long dress, but that was the only time the 2 of us dressed up, otherwise shorts and flip-flops. ah, another time and place, who knows? She and other friends made it worthwhile. Now I wish I had roomed with her in her pup tent, but was too much a gentleman
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mstar1
Does anyone know how much money they made off of those things?
One of the last ones I went to was in about 86, by then the tickets were $40,they claimed there were about 20,000 there that year--which is $800,000 or so just in admission fees, that doesnt include food sales, books, "ABS" and whatever else they grabbed from us.
The land was free and the labor was all free. I know they rented the tents and equipment ($100K maybe???)
but I think it may have been a huge cash cow during its peak
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Twinky
For sure a cash cow if you can make people come to it by laying on them a guilt trip if they don't make a Rock trip.
For believers who lived overseas, it was a really big expense, what with air fares and all. Even if a discounted air fare to somewhere frequently visited was available, there were add-on costs to more local airports and the cost of getting from the airport to HQ. To not be able to make it to the Rock was to recognize that the transport expenses were huge, when coming from countries where wages are not at US levels and disposable income may not be much.
One year, some attempt was made in the country where I was living to cater for faithful believers who couldn't afford all that expense. LCM's response: "F*** 'em, if they can't be bothered to get here, they can take care of themselves back at home." (Maybe that was part of a general response more aimed at US believers - but that's how it came down to us, overseas.) Some years, there were offers to pick up Internationals from Dayton or Columbus. But not every year. And sometimes it was just the kindness of staff who recognized the additional difficulties posed for Internationals, and went and collected them anyway.
Out of all the money coming in...wouldn't it have been kind to share a little with the overseas people by covering the small expense of collecting them from an accessible airport? (After all, what was the motor coach for? - not that that was around in my time - but coaches and buses can be hired for a day or a week.)
There wasn't even any help for International Corps whose only means of transportation was flying. So after my WoW year (so part-time wages) I still had to find full air fare back to the Rock. My WoW family clubbed together to give me something towards my expenses, bless 'em. HQ did give me the entrance ticket free and vouchers for food. Big deal.
I didn't think of it at the time, just accepted it.
International outreach? International grab, more like.
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skyrider
IMO.....wierwille and co. could have addressed these issues and alleviated the financial burdens placed on International Corps. But again, a narcissist isn't really all that good in identifying concerns, nor has compassion on others.
In 1982.....after Geer was ordained and sent to Europe, he quickly started implementing policy changes for the international corps and believers. In short, he explicitly informed F1nnegan, the Worldwide Outreach Coordinator, that European corps and believers would, henceforth, attend the ROA every third year.
On one hand, I see the expenses-argument.
On the other hand, I see the Geer power-grab.
Fast forward four more years.....to 1986......and look how Geer marshalled his "back to the Word and Wierwille" mantra via his poop paper. Many threads here at GS detail point-by-point how Geer pulled it off.
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Twinky
What Geer did was decide to institute an annual European get-together. He wanted that to become the venue for (at least) European believers. I went to such an event, in Amsterdam. It was a really great time, marred only by the presence of Geer. Then of course Gartmore was ready and events started happening up there.
And that is a really good idea. Saves unnecessary expense and trekking across the world, and European travel is easy and can be done in many ways to suit time and budget. Enables people with a non-US outlook to meet and deal with the issues they face in a more acceptable manner. Or could have been.
Geer's festival/get-together wouldn't be in midsummer, but was to be in winter (December/Jan).
But that's not how it worked out. It was a power-grab. And even if it weren't a power grab, it could so easily have become a burden on European believers - all have to go to the European event, and then all have to go to the US event.
It still doesn't address transport issues for other overseas believers - in Australia, New Zealand, India, Zaire (who were in fact supported by TWI, yes they were), even Scandinavia, who still have to get over an ocean somewhere. But it did give (or would have given) a choice and perhaps a cheaper option.
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waysider
I'm having hot dogs in my backyard tonight.
All of you UK believers are required to be there.
(Please bring your own condiments.)
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mstar1
Will there Be Speaking in Puns and other mangulations of the spirit?
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Twinky
Waysider, I'm bringing brown sauce, none of that tomato ketchup stuff for me.
I'll bring some of that good old West Country Zomerzet cider too. Slurp, lovely,
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mstar1
Expecting kindness, or service of any kind from TWI??
:biglaugh:
Dont make me choke :) They came with their handout---always
I understand the difficulty for International people but it was no picnic for a lot of Americans either...the 'more than abundant life' in a lot of areas of the US consisted of a part time minimum wage job (which you were expected to ABS from) and a broken down car.
Id scrimp and save all year to come up with 3 or $400 so I could hand it all over at the ROA :wacko:
Id still like to know what they pulled in annually at the Crock, if DWHB or anyone has any figures
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DontWorryBeHappy
hey mstar1!!.......always great to see ya!.............when i left twi, the irs and the justice department spent a combined total of 5 days at my house looking over the copies of roa "books" and other "materials" i had in my possession.........the modus operandi at the time was to keep two sets of books......one for the review of government agencies and auditors etc., and a set of the "real Books"........the roa bookstore sales alone made well over a million dollars in profit on sales, let alone the tickets, camping, hotel "deals", camping fees, profits on food sales, and practically zero labor costs since it was all corps, staff and volunteers that provided the labor........about the only things twi did'nt own were the tents!.....the rest was all donated or purchased at ridiculously low prices for tax write-offs for the various donors and/or renters..................so, the rock profitted in excess of 2-3 million dollars annually by the '80's.........and all that happened by those "books reviews" i mentioned previously, is that twi lost it's tax-exempt privileges for several years........that was it!............sheesh, eh?.............................................................not to mention that the US trunk operated at only an 8-10% cost of the total income of all the limbs.....that's a 90-92% "profit rate" on 40-50 million dollars of income annually until geer and king okie demolished what was left of twi at the end of the 80's............rosie and the gang are still livin' high on the hog on all those profits from the years prior to 1986!..............twi owes us lotsa money!.....LOL!..................................peace.
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Twinky
Double sets of books ... I've heard this before - perhaps from you, DWBH, perhaps from others.
TWI's outstanding honesty and integrity is beyond compare. /sarcasm/
Love the way they set the standard and follow that principle, "Render unto Caesar [or the IRS] what is Caesar's..."
This is that same organization, yes?, that said that ABS must be "donated" from gross income - not that income left after tax - because otherwise one was putting "man" before God, hmm?
Thing is, they could have offset the charitable expenditure against tax anyway.
That's if there'd been any charitable expenditure.
Makes me wonder how much any actual charitable expenditure may have been pumped up.
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mstar1
Yowza--I knew it was a huge cash cow, but I had no idea the figures were that large.
If you take into account that a lot of that money came from extremely poor people struggling for basic neccessities it becomes disgusting-
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Broken Arrow
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Hey! Here's a thought! How about we have the event and just the people who want to come can attend! Now why didn't I think of that before? Or, we could just not have the event and spend more time building up the local areas. That means that people who live outside of the U.S. stay in their own country!! Wow!! What a thought!
If Wierwille had been born in, say, Munich, very few people in the U.S. would have made the trip to his festival.
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Broken Arrow
TWI's rationale, if I remember correctly, was that the law was meant for the unbelievers and they would quote a verse from Timothy. We at TWI lived on a higher plain above the law, or so it was said. That really translated into follow the law as long as it is convenient. So, yeah, it's okay to fix the books and lie to the government.
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Twinky
Not an option, though, for Internationals...we were expected to attend. The mighty US calls.
For such reasons, the US is not seen favorably by overseas countries. However, if compelled (as TWI did) - well ... you just did it.
I don't know how many US believers ever managed to visit Gartmore - was hardly running long enough.
It really would have been much better to build up local expertise, dealing with the local culture, country by country... but TWI never operated that way. "Our way or no way." And it really didn't work in other countries. All that happened is that people were totally put off.
And I agree with you, BA: I really don't think US believers would willingly make the trek regularly, year after year, to such an event. To ... such an event. Even if they did feel obliged to trek long distances across the US to such an event in Ohio.
So what are we seeing here? It's wicked (good word, that, "wicked") to withhold lawful taxes.
Does the IRS, or other countries' governments, lawfully require residents to pay taxes (tribute)? Yep, they sure do. Therefore, should one pay taxes? Yep. 'Fraid so.
I don't see wiggle room here to maintain two sets of books. I'm sure God can cope with only having his share and not a part of Caesar's share also. The choice is : give Caesar (the government) what is rightly due to it; give to God what is rightly due to God. The rest is one's own.
This account appears in Matthew, Mark and Luke. Three times: complete!!
So in keeping two sets of books : who was TWI serving?
(Like verses appear in Matthew and Luke)
But of course - if you discourage (or worse, disallow) the Gospels and looking at the life of Jesus ... hey, what does his example matter, anyway? We live under grace now. Yeah, right.
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