I've been out for four or five years now and I am ready to listen again.
That's really cool. I am not there yet, just into doing what I want to do at the moment. Congrats! Part of me looks forward to wanting to listen again.
Enjoyed the post. It really dispels some of my ignorance from all the negative comparisons that have been pounded into my head during my time in TWI. Craiggers REALLY bashed Roman Catholics, as you well know.
I disassociated from TWI in 1987, but I hung out with CES for about nine more years. I haven't been closely associated with any particular religious group since then, though I have involved myself in some occassional interdenominational enterprises.
I was originally supposed to get my bachelor's degree in 1971. I finally finished it last May, so I spent a literal forty years wandering in the wilderness. A few weeks ago, I began working on a master's degree in theological studies, with a focus on the Greek language, with a view towards qualifying to teach Greek at the high school level.
What a joy the classes are, compared with the droning drivel of in residence corps training. The professors are bona fide doctors in their fields, but they aren't puffed up. They conduct their classes more through discourse than through lecture, and they WELCOME questions.
I began appreciating how the Lord can work in Catholicism just as well as in any other flavor of Christianity when I was studying the works of JRR Tolkien (not just the Hobbit and the Ring Trilogy) and saw how his Roman Catholicism was key to his unique understanding of parts of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. It was Tolkien, the Roman Catholic, who witnessed to C.S. Lewis!
I have several friends and relatives who have converted to Roman Catholicism lately, and if that's where God has chosen to set them in the Body of Christ, then more power to them!
The love of God is a mighty, mighty river flowing through the world. It isn't just a little trickle in an Ohio cornfield.
Good for you, JJ. Sounds like you have a good teacher/tutor there. One who will encourage you to THINK. Make sure it stays like that throughout your teaching sessions.
I go to a "course" in my city which is entirely free (though donations welcome). There are a variety of teachers/lecturers from different backgrounds. The tutors all have their own biases and sometimes don't say exactly the same thing - which I'm not sure others pick up on. There is no opportunity ever to ask questions.
I don't necessarily enjoy it and think some of them are in it for a bit of self-glorification, and some are definitely not reading the scriptures correctly. However, I go because it's interesting to me to see another point of view and it sometimes allows me to challenge areas of TWI-think that I hadn't delved into before ... and sometimes makes me wonder how they could be so wresting the scriptures ... and then I wonder if I'm being elitist. No doubting, however, that they have done things with their theology...reached out to people in need.
Thank God He gave us thinking ability and the opportunity to CHOOSE.
But it's all about HEART towards God. He's the one who draws us to Him, and He's the one who will provide those to teach us more about Him...in whatever way HE chooses.
The teacher stressed that that was perfectly fine and that God and His love is evident in all Christian religions. She told all of us that she had respect for each person's beliefs, and that we can see Christ and God in every person. She also stressed that God made us free to choose what we want to believe. And the biggest thing for me?
We welcome questions. Questioning is an important part of our journey to know God. You don't have to accept everything we teach as fact or truth.
I absolutely believe this statement to be true; I have experienced these results in my own walk...
There is another man taking the class with me that I almost referred to the nearest TWI fellowship. He is 87 years old and I don't really know why he is taking the class other than to be a reminder to me of why I need to be humble, a reminder of who I was in TWI, a reminder of my arrogance and close-minded prejudices against all other religions. He wants "proof" of everything, wants to argue every point the teacher makes, and it is making it very hard for me to even sit in class and learn anything because he hijacks every point and turns it into why the church is wrong (any church, not just the Catholic church - he attends Bible studies and church services all over town doing the same thing he does in this class), and why the Bible is wrong because it has to be exact and scientific and mathematical and explainable... He wants God in exact scientific terms, put in a petri dish where He can be dissected and pulled apart. And he sits in disdain of the rest of the people there - his wife, the teacher, and the students. He makes faces while the teacher reads from the book, he grunts and moans while she teaches.
Not that there is anything wrong with wanting answers, with wanting knowledge... but maybe we should be humble enough to know that we will not ever have all the answers. We aren't supposed to. God is bigger than we are. The Creator cannot be explained by the creation.
If you want everything to be that exact go to school, take a science class, take a higher math class.
In a way, it was like looking my (as TWI would put it) "old man" in the face. And he is a literal "old man." I don't want to be that anymore. I want to just sit and know that I am not God, that there are many things in life I cannot explain, and that I am fine with this role. I am not in control, God is. And I don't have to accept everything the teacher teaches, but at the same time I don't have to be an a$$ about it.
Two things stoof out to me - one that he said, and one from the teacher:
Old Man: "It seems like if you want to be a 'Christian' you have to just be stupid... believe stuff with no explaination."
Teacher: "This Christian life is not about having an explanation for everything. We can't know everything. The Christian life is about being good, being kind, being loving. It's about living a good life. That's all."
Teacher: "This Christian life is not about having an explanation for everything. We can't know everything. The Christian life is about being good, being kind, being loving. It's about living a good life. That's all."
True, we can't know everything. Letting go of that idea is one of the first steps, IMO, to compassion.
I do have one question, though. If the Christian life is ONLY as the teacher defined it, how does she describe what makes it "Christian," since other faiths (and atheistis included) say they are about the same things: "about being good, being kind, being loving. It's about living a good life. That's all"
Just curious...this question has mattered to me for a long time....
True, we can't know everything. Letting go of that idea is one of the first steps, IMO, to compassion.
I do have one question, though. If the Christian life is ONLY as the teacher defined it, how does she describe what makes it "Christian," since other faiths (and atheistis included) say they are about the same things: "about being good, being kind, being loving. It's about living a good life. That's all"
Just curious...this question has mattered to me for a long time....
It is a good question - I guess it's the focus on God and Christ and the spiritual included as a part of living a good life that makes it different.
At the time the teacher was speaking on the topic of the Trinity, stating that God became man so that man could relate more to God and vice versa. The man was arguing that since he had not ever seen Jesus that he had no proof Jesus existed and that he therefore had not proof God existed, and if we could see God we would explode (or some such meandering.) And then the same logic from PFAL that Jesus can't be the Son of God and God the Son at the same time.
And to be perfectly honest, I don't really care one way or the other about the Trinity any more.
Am I a bad ex-wayfer now?
It's weird, because with him sitting in the class it is almost like having a TWI PFAL/Way of Abundance and Power echo in the room. Every point she makes he comes up with a comment that could have come from the mouth of VP or LCM. It's almost creepy.
no frigging joke. I'm in the middle of applying the maximum logic to an endeavor, unlike before. That is, studying mathematics close to the closure of a Bachellor's degree..
no kidding.. I walk into our favorite store. Savings abound.
and every associate has horrible scars and massive infected sores..
I started chanting. Really. No, not speaking in tongues..
that didn't really do anything for me when the real s*it hit the fan here about ten years ago..
Java Jane, I hope this does not go too far off subject here..
Really, Ham? Walmart? That place is filled with boxes.
And, speaking of boxes .... Religion, at least to me, just seems like a way to put God in a box....a neat, little, precisely measured and defined box. Can you really put God in a box? I don't know. I thought He was supposed to be limitless and all that jazz. The Way tried to put God in a box. How did that work out for them?
several of these "associates" live in a tent or trailer at a campground, because they can't afford rent, at a reasonable place to live..
pay so low.. if they have children, one has to depend on government subsidies to provide basic health care.. big bizz is literally leaching off of what it despises, big government..
Old Man: "It seems like if you want to be a 'Christian' you have to just be stupid... believe stuff with no explaination."
Teacher: "This Christian life is not about having an explanation for everything. We can't know everything. The Christian life is about being good, being kind, being loving. It's about living a good life. That's all."
Can't speak for everyone else but doing my own inventory, on face value I don't have an explanation for many things, Christian and non-Christian. In fact I can't explain most things I rely on day to day. I can't explain why there's so many auto accidents on the freeway I do my daily commute on, given the fact everyone's doing the same thing....or are they? Looked at another way I can't explain why there aren't MORE accidents given the variables. It should be one long string of fender benders come to think of it. Get on the freeway, drive 3 minutes, bang. Next.
Yet, I've driven for decades, over 40 years more or less without anything close to a scraper. Uh oh - "jinxed"....? How will I explain this 10 years from now if I don't have an auto accident? Will it explain that jinxing doesn't work? Or that I stopped driving? I think the endless stream of a universe of possibilities that we try to explain by reason relies on our observation of reliability and predictability where a thing occurs more than once, thrice to triangulate and many or enough times for us to assume we know what we're experiencing, and have some grip on it's repetition, that's it's the same thing or things and after that it's all math. (enter the Squirrel!) or put another way if something only happens once it's hard to capture it fully enough to understand it's entire context.
Which I think goes to the general topic of "religion" and man's efforts, inspired or otherwise, to capture his world. People want to take an individual experience and understand it in the context of that of others and work from the standpoint that it's going to be "the same" when it can't be. Ultimately the joining of completely separate and individual non-repetitive instances of something ("Me", "You") is going to be difficult to say the least. If I were a musician I'd look at music and see an example of how that happens mentally, emotionally and physically, real time, on the ground. Successful examples of what's possible abound. I think many people want more. To me the more is of another realm and looks different but has similarities. People learn to understand themselves by what's different - sort of goes with the territory I think. But to make anything work with more than one of us we need to find at least one similarity. Saints identify sinners but both are something else and that something else is what allows for seeing the difference and it's the one thing that's the same about both. If we could only nail down that Same Thing and bottle it I'm sure we could make a bundle.
It should be, could be enlightening and instructive if not out right enjoyable. Why it's not for so many - dunno, but I'll be on the freeway tomorrow morning.
I doubt that guy could explain much of anything he takes for granted to the satisfaction of someone else who disagrees or holds another opinion though. Or could he? "Explain" is an interesting term. I can explain something something in great detail, graphs, charts, stat's and a screaming summary statement - now what? "That's stupid!"....?....Fine. Go get your own PowerPoint.
I do think the Christian life is about more than doing good though. That's good, doing good and I'm all for it. More better gooder, that's my motto. Christianity does have it's differentiators as they say and it's own brand. Look for it where ever fine faiths are being sold and all that but I think it stands out.
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OldSkool
That's really cool. I am not there yet, just into doing what I want to do at the moment. Congrats! Part of me looks forward to wanting to listen again.
Enjoyed the post. It really dispels some of my ignorance from all the negative comparisons that have been pounded into my head during my time in TWI. Craiggers REALLY bashed Roman Catholics, as you well know.
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Steve Lortz
I disassociated from TWI in 1987, but I hung out with CES for about nine more years. I haven't been closely associated with any particular religious group since then, though I have involved myself in some occassional interdenominational enterprises.
I was originally supposed to get my bachelor's degree in 1971. I finally finished it last May, so I spent a literal forty years wandering in the wilderness. A few weeks ago, I began working on a master's degree in theological studies, with a focus on the Greek language, with a view towards qualifying to teach Greek at the high school level.
What a joy the classes are, compared with the droning drivel of in residence corps training. The professors are bona fide doctors in their fields, but they aren't puffed up. They conduct their classes more through discourse than through lecture, and they WELCOME questions.
I began appreciating how the Lord can work in Catholicism just as well as in any other flavor of Christianity when I was studying the works of JRR Tolkien (not just the Hobbit and the Ring Trilogy) and saw how his Roman Catholicism was key to his unique understanding of parts of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. It was Tolkien, the Roman Catholic, who witnessed to C.S. Lewis!
I have several friends and relatives who have converted to Roman Catholicism lately, and if that's where God has chosen to set them in the Body of Christ, then more power to them!
The love of God is a mighty, mighty river flowing through the world. It isn't just a little trickle in an Ohio cornfield.
Love,
Steve
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Twinky
Good for you, JJ. Sounds like you have a good teacher/tutor there. One who will encourage you to THINK. Make sure it stays like that throughout your teaching sessions.
I go to a "course" in my city which is entirely free (though donations welcome). There are a variety of teachers/lecturers from different backgrounds. The tutors all have their own biases and sometimes don't say exactly the same thing - which I'm not sure others pick up on. There is no opportunity ever to ask questions.
I don't necessarily enjoy it and think some of them are in it for a bit of self-glorification, and some are definitely not reading the scriptures correctly. However, I go because it's interesting to me to see another point of view and it sometimes allows me to challenge areas of TWI-think that I hadn't delved into before ... and sometimes makes me wonder how they could be so wresting the scriptures ... and then I wonder if I'm being elitist. No doubting, however, that they have done things with their theology...reached out to people in need.
Thank God He gave us thinking ability and the opportunity to CHOOSE.
But it's all about HEART towards God. He's the one who draws us to Him, and He's the one who will provide those to teach us more about Him...in whatever way HE chooses.
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Rejoice
I absolutely believe this statement to be true; I have experienced these results in my own walk...
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JavaJane
Took my second class Thursday night...
There is another man taking the class with me that I almost referred to the nearest TWI fellowship. He is 87 years old and I don't really know why he is taking the class other than to be a reminder to me of why I need to be humble, a reminder of who I was in TWI, a reminder of my arrogance and close-minded prejudices against all other religions. He wants "proof" of everything, wants to argue every point the teacher makes, and it is making it very hard for me to even sit in class and learn anything because he hijacks every point and turns it into why the church is wrong (any church, not just the Catholic church - he attends Bible studies and church services all over town doing the same thing he does in this class), and why the Bible is wrong because it has to be exact and scientific and mathematical and explainable... He wants God in exact scientific terms, put in a petri dish where He can be dissected and pulled apart. And he sits in disdain of the rest of the people there - his wife, the teacher, and the students. He makes faces while the teacher reads from the book, he grunts and moans while she teaches.
Not that there is anything wrong with wanting answers, with wanting knowledge... but maybe we should be humble enough to know that we will not ever have all the answers. We aren't supposed to. God is bigger than we are. The Creator cannot be explained by the creation.
If you want everything to be that exact go to school, take a science class, take a higher math class.
In a way, it was like looking my (as TWI would put it) "old man" in the face. And he is a literal "old man." I don't want to be that anymore. I want to just sit and know that I am not God, that there are many things in life I cannot explain, and that I am fine with this role. I am not in control, God is. And I don't have to accept everything the teacher teaches, but at the same time I don't have to be an a$$ about it.
Two things stoof out to me - one that he said, and one from the teacher:
Old Man: "It seems like if you want to be a 'Christian' you have to just be stupid... believe stuff with no explaination."
Teacher: "This Christian life is not about having an explanation for everything. We can't know everything. The Christian life is about being good, being kind, being loving. It's about living a good life. That's all."
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penworks
True, we can't know everything. Letting go of that idea is one of the first steps, IMO, to compassion.
I do have one question, though. If the Christian life is ONLY as the teacher defined it, how does she describe what makes it "Christian," since other faiths (and atheistis included) say they are about the same things: "about being good, being kind, being loving. It's about living a good life. That's all"
Just curious...this question has mattered to me for a long time....
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JavaJane
It is a good question - I guess it's the focus on God and Christ and the spiritual included as a part of living a good life that makes it different.
At the time the teacher was speaking on the topic of the Trinity, stating that God became man so that man could relate more to God and vice versa. The man was arguing that since he had not ever seen Jesus that he had no proof Jesus existed and that he therefore had not proof God existed, and if we could see God we would explode (or some such meandering.) And then the same logic from PFAL that Jesus can't be the Son of God and God the Son at the same time.
And to be perfectly honest, I don't really care one way or the other about the Trinity any more.
Am I a bad ex-wayfer now?
It's weird, because with him sitting in the class it is almost like having a TWI PFAL/Way of Abundance and Power echo in the room. Every point she makes he comes up with a comment that could have come from the mouth of VP or LCM. It's almost creepy.
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Ham
the only Zombie dream I have had.. was a non-drug induced dream when I was wide awake, walking one late afternoon through wal mart..
so I had to go back, to see what it was I saw..
and everybody looked supposedly normal and all, with the second glance..
If I were walking into a church, and saw the same vision, I would ask the person in charge why this was so.
I wouldn't accept an answer that would allegate that I was possessed or something..
from what I saw with the first walk through..
I thought maybe the place was built on some kind of sacred American Indian burial ground or something..
So weird.
So my better half loves the place. "I'm going to wal mart. Need anything"?
No, no thanks. Just remember to wear garlic around your neck..
I might walk through the place, but I will never spend another red cent there..
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Ham
What I think your are finding in this class, are a few living souls who seek a connection with you..
then there is the practically ex way person who does not.. who does not want a connection with anything..
if you want or need a connection, I would ignore the dufas..
or even laugh at the suggestions. That sometimes works..
"are you telling me.. you are sooooo smart, that you can maneuver God Almighty into a box?"
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bowtwi
I'm having a similar experience. I'm an elder in a First Christian (Disciples of Christ) church and taking classes toward a lay
pastor license. I took a class a couple weeks ago called, dig this --- BOUNDARIES TRAINING. I kid you not! One of the
very first things they discussed was that if you're single and a pastor and you feel attracted to someone in your congregation,
DO NOT TRY TO PASTOR THEM, rather have them move to another church or have someone else pastor them. They went
to great lengths to explain beyond any possible doubt how one must never ever mix dating or having an affair with someone
you're pastoring.
They also had speakers that were Buddhist, Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist and I don't know what all, leaders in quite a variety
of denominations and philosophies.
The idea is to ENCOURAGE thinking and that it's really okay for everyone to believe what they believe - the point is to follow
through and act like you believe what you believe.
The reason there are so many denominations is pretty simple, after all. There are so many people and we each have our own
minds - and we each have freedom of will.
It seems to me the Christian walk is about loving God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength and our neighbors as ourselves.
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waysider
What a radical concept!!
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Ham
that is about the best advice I would consider..
even if you are not single, i.e. married..
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Ham
Zombies don't need pastoring. They just need your brains..
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waysider
If they're zombie bakers, they knead your brains.
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Ham
ha! Well, so many of us Zombies hand out at Greasespot, and other places. Still, I don't need any more brains..
still, I recommend if you shop at wal mart. 1. keep your tetanus shots current. 2. Wear Garlic. lots of it.
sowy. This is funny, but serious. Or is that the other way around..
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Ham
what does one do when..
no frigging joke. I'm in the middle of applying the maximum logic to an endeavor, unlike before. That is, studying mathematics close to the closure of a Bachellor's degree..
no kidding.. I walk into our favorite store. Savings abound.
and every associate has horrible scars and massive infected sores..
I started chanting. Really. No, not speaking in tongues..
that didn't really do anything for me when the real s*it hit the fan here about ten years ago..
Java Jane, I hope this does not go too far off subject here..
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waysider
OK....I'll segue back onto the topic
:P
Really, Ham? Walmart? That place is filled with boxes.
And, speaking of boxes
.... Religion, at least to me, just seems like a way to put God in a box....a neat, little, precisely measured and defined box. Can you really put God in a box? I don't know. I thought He was supposed to be limitless and all that jazz. The Way tried to put God in a box. How did that work out for them?
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Ham
I found out later.
several of these "associates" live in a tent or trailer at a campground, because they can't afford rent, at a reasonable place to live..
pay so low.. if they have children, one has to depend on government subsidies to provide basic health care.. big bizz is literally leaching off of what it despises, big government..
hates it.. but can't exist without it..
sounds kinda like a heroin addiction..
who is supplying the drug though?
sowie. Just thinking here..
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Ham
Oh, dreams, or nightmares.
The last half a dozen here have only involved the presently living. Maybe I'm blessed or something..
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socks
Old Man: "It seems like if you want to be a 'Christian' you have to just be stupid... believe stuff with no explaination."
Teacher: "This Christian life is not about having an explanation for everything. We can't know everything. The Christian life is about being good, being kind, being loving. It's about living a good life. That's all."
Can't speak for everyone else but doing my own inventory, on face value I don't have an explanation for many things, Christian and non-Christian. In fact I can't explain most things I rely on day to day. I can't explain why there's so many auto accidents on the freeway I do my daily commute on, given the fact everyone's doing the same thing....or are they? Looked at another way I can't explain why there aren't MORE accidents given the variables. It should be one long string of fender benders come to think of it. Get on the freeway, drive 3 minutes, bang. Next.
Yet, I've driven for decades, over 40 years more or less without anything close to a scraper. Uh oh - "jinxed"....? How will I explain this 10 years from now if I don't have an auto accident? Will it explain that jinxing doesn't work? Or that I stopped driving? I think the endless stream of a universe of possibilities that we try to explain by reason relies on our observation of reliability and predictability where a thing occurs more than once, thrice to triangulate and many or enough times for us to assume we know what we're experiencing, and have some grip on it's repetition, that's it's the same thing or things and after that it's all math. (enter the Squirrel!) or put another way if something only happens once it's hard to capture it fully enough to understand it's entire context.
Which I think goes to the general topic of "religion" and man's efforts, inspired or otherwise, to capture his world. People want to take an individual experience and understand it in the context of that of others and work from the standpoint that it's going to be "the same" when it can't be. Ultimately the joining of completely separate and individual non-repetitive instances of something ("Me", "You") is going to be difficult to say the least. If I were a musician I'd look at music and see an example of how that happens mentally, emotionally and physically, real time, on the ground. Successful examples of what's possible abound. I think many people want more. To me the more is of another realm and looks different but has similarities. People learn to understand themselves by what's different - sort of goes with the territory I think. But to make anything work with more than one of us we need to find at least one similarity. Saints identify sinners but both are something else and that something else is what allows for seeing the difference and it's the one thing that's the same about both. If we could only nail down that Same Thing and bottle it I'm sure we could make a bundle.
It should be, could be enlightening and instructive if not out right enjoyable. Why it's not for so many - dunno, but I'll be on the freeway tomorrow morning.
I doubt that guy could explain much of anything he takes for granted to the satisfaction of someone else who disagrees or holds another opinion though. Or could he? "Explain" is an interesting term. I can explain something something in great detail, graphs, charts, stat's and a screaming summary statement - now what? "That's stupid!"....?....Fine. Go get your own PowerPoint.
I do think the Christian life is about more than doing good though. That's good, doing good and I'm all for it. More better gooder, that's my motto. Christianity does have it's differentiators as they say and it's own brand. Look for it where ever fine faiths are being sold and all that but I think it stands out.
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waysider
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socks
That's the stuff, right there ways', right on. Mr. Waters knew. He knew.
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excathedra
do i have to read this thread ;) :)
i am a christian because christ is my lord always has been always will be i love him
he chose me what can i say?
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waysider
Nope.
You do, however, have to click my link and drink in the testimony of Mr. McKinley Morganfield.
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