Obscurity in a Living Room

[Ham]

You mean the ones with lipstick marks that were recycled?

Yep..

hey, they got some mileage out of some cups. Some made it through one class, having been used something like.. twelve times. Then they were carefully cleaned(?) and stored for yet the next class..

Oh, I was one of the new students who met my first styrofoam cup with the distinction of bite marks and lipstick sometime around session three..

and the coffee(?).. first session, well, kinda ok. Then session two.. a "tad" bit weaker, and the hint of a taste of salt..

In fact, spiritual abuse in private is more lethal than massive gatherings some might contend, right? At a megachurch, if someone doesn't agree with the sermon and/or feels uncomfortable with his surroundings then a side exit is easy to find.

there is one non-denominational mini-church here, where the ushers lock the exit doors until the sermon is over..

[skyrider]

twi never had 50,000 people at any one time.

In 1984, the roa number peaked at 24,000.....the highest in twi history.

Men like Bo Re#hard and Vince F. claimed that this number, or slightly higher, was the accurate measure of active followers

in twi at its peak. Some agreed that perhaps another 3,000 might not have been able to make the roa trip due to work or

finances.....but by this consensus, twi never had more than 27,000 followers at any one time.

The revolving door in twi was always whirling......those coming, those going.

[Ham]

My first thought about the cups..

I saw better ones just lying in the dumpster..

if they needed better looking cups, the suggestion would be logical, though I never made it..

"hey fellas.. I know where there is some real treasure.."

[OldSkool]

The MAIN reasons, TWI was considered a cult were that it had a single, charismatic leader, and its beliefs.

I won't handle beliefs but will reserve myself to single, charismatic leader. Rosalie has gone out of her way to give the impression that there is no single, charismatic leader. All of the supposed delegation with the teaching schedules and other public speaking opportunities that VP and Craig reserved for themselves now give the appearance of a panel of independent teachers all working towards the same thing. This is RosaLIE's sleight of hand to out "Fox" the main component of the cult label.

Now Rosalie is about as charismatic as a snail, but let me say once again, she is the single leader and ever at her side is Donna Martindale. All of the authority is still concentrated in one person even though they have a board of directors, officers, cabinet, way tree, etc. Each level is in place to control the next lower level. The higher up the tree you go the more control is exerted over you. All of the public speaking events are TIGHTLY controlled through multiple outlines, script development, critiques and the like and all roads lead to Rosalie. That is why everyone reads their teaching notes word for word. If you stray too far from the program Rosalie will rake you over the coals.

I bring this up because one of today's selling points is (to paraphrase) "we used to be considered a cult but are no longer and part of the reason is Rosalie is not the head, charismatic figure." I will concede she is not charismatic. But she is the central figure in the way international. She is just a little slicker than her predecessors.

[WordWolf]

I thought

"They gotta be raking in more $ than twi ever did with 8 million strong."

meant

"twi had 8 million people once, these others have more"

rather than

"since they have 8 million people-more than twi ever had- they have to have more money"

(which is what was meant.)

So, 8 million is the mega-churches, not a twi number.

Glad we cleared that up.

=====================

In 1984, the roa number peaked at 24,000.....the highest in twi history.

Men like Bo Re#hard and Vince F. claimed that this number, or slightly higher, was the accurate measure of active followers

in twi at its peak. Some agreed that perhaps another 3,000 might not have been able to make the roa trip due to work or

finances.....but by this consensus, twi never had more than 27,000 followers at any one time.

The revolving door in twi was always whirling......those coming, those going.

Some people have thought that a decent ballpark of twi membership was double the ROA attendance

in any year. That makes sense to me- people who CAN go, DO go, but many can't get the time off

of work or otherwise have responsibilities. (Before 1990, at least-afterwards I think it became

mandatory and "punishable" -sanctions were used- if you missed the ROA.) For that matter, some

people actually couldn't afford the trip. twi never did find a way to help people improve their

salaries so they could tithe a larger amount- they preferred to squeeze people for higher

percentages or increase the number of people.

So, most leadership would show up, and much of the rank-and-file nationally. Maybe that made

closer to 1/2 the membership than most in the 80s, and the 90s meant almost all remaining people

were in attendance (when the numbers were much smaller.) At the highest, that would still put

numbers under 50,000 even with the most generous guesstimates.

[skyrider]

I thought

"They gotta be raking in more $ than twi ever did with 8 million strong."

meant

"twi had 8 million people once, these others have more"

rather than

"since they have 8 million people-more than twi ever had- they have to have more money"

(which is what was meant.)

So, 8 million is the mega-churches, not a twi number.

Glad we cleared that up.

=====================

WW.....where are you quoting from?

I don't see those comments in this thread.

[TrustAndObey]

The fact that VPW denied the deity of Jesus really ruffled lots of feathers in the eyes of mainstream church leaders. That single belief ALONE is enough to get your group the cult label, even today. The trinity (one God, coexistent in three persons) is the central, foundational belief on mainstream Christianity. Simply put, if you don't believe that Jesus IS God, you can't play in that sandbox.

As long as you keep the "deity of Christ" separate from the belief in the Trinity, then you are correct. As there are MANY megachurches these days that lean more to Oneness theology than Trinitarian and are very well promoted in Christian circles.. T.D. Jakes, with over 30,000 members, being one example. One statistics says over 1/4th of megachurches are non-denominational, and have very differing doctrinal views.

[rascal]

Oh, sure. But they didn't incur any costs by recruiting YOU to sacrifice the use of YOUR living room.

Cheap sons of byotches!

Or your toilet paper or your raised utilities or your coffee or refreshments or tvs and vcrs....ypou postage and money orders...whew

[Ham]

Hey! Dear Friend, nice to see you here..

Hope all is well with you and yours..

[WordWolf]

WW.....where are you quoting from?

I don't see those comments in this thread.

Oh, for God's sake, this is a dead issue, I misunderstood something.

Here it is, and if there's anything else to derail this thread on it,

please pm me with it.

(snip)

So what I'm wondering is, why do the mega churches not get labeled like that? They gotta be raking in more $ than twi ever did with 8 million strong.

Are they independent or are they part of the NCC or some big denominations that are part of the NCC? They gotta be financially connected SOMEWHERE. Or do they?

I misunderstood and replied

"And where is this "8 million strong" number being hallucinated from? twi claimed to have had

100,000 people- which meant MAYBE that many people EVER SIGNED UP FOR PFAL WORLDWIDE- and we all know

some people never made it to Session 1, some people left before Session 12, and some people left

right after Session 12. twi never had 50,000 people at any one time."

HCW answered me:

"I think Sky was referring 8 million in megachurches...."

skyrider replied with a specific source, making it clear it meant megachurches

"Megachurches.....

*Steven Waldman, "Fastest Growing Religion=No Religion(New Religious Identification Survey),"

beliefnet.com, March 9, 2009"

So, I understood and explained.

"I thought

"They gotta be raking in more $ than twi ever did with 8 million strong."

meant

"twi had 8 million people once, these others have more"

rather than

"since they have 8 million people-more than twi ever had- they have to have more money"

(which is what was meant.)

So, 8 million is the mega-churches, not a twi number.

Glad we cleared that up."

The latter 2 comments were interpretations. NOBODY said "twi had 8 million people once, these people have more"

and NOBODY said "since they have 8 million people-more than twi ever had- they have to have more money."

However, the second one carries rhe MEANING of what I'd quoted at the top.

[waysider]

What???? TWI had 8 million members????

:B)

[skyrider]

What???? TWI had 8 million members????

:B)

Really?

Where'd you hear THAT?

[waysider]

Let's see...6-8 per living room....divide that into 8 million...

Whoa! No wonder we had to stretch the coffee!

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

no, it was Johnathiam who brought up 8 million number. Why? IDK

[krys]

It made me sick to keep washing those Styrofoam cups too. I seriously considered a secret thumbnail marking hidden on the bottom to ensure they weren't washed more than twice and their third use was the end. I just picked that # as a way to finality and getting rid of them.

God bless those who gave their houses over to run a class. The classroom was set up and left....for 3 weeks except sometimes. It was vacuumed reasonably often...but the family usually didn't have much use of the room. Other rooms were designated for other purposes too. The class instructor usually needed some private space, though not usually a room...Set up crew was on duty every class day. Bathrooms were cleaned before students arrived...kitchen's straightened up (sometimes not necessary....depended on the rhythm of the household). When students left, bathrooms were re-cleaned for family use.

During the winter, if it snowed during one of the sessions, we'd be out brushing off the cars...and sweeping steps etc to "bless" the students. It was rare, but shoveling was sometimes necessary. When the students were on their way....we'd be doing close-up cleaning....THEN brush our own cars off....and it would be time to go home. In my case...it was about 35 minutes...THEN I got to unwind and go to bed. Normal day the next day...get up and go to work....sometimes followed by another class the following evening.

Obscurity was where you didn't see it unless you really knew where to look.

Edited February 14, 2012 by krys

[HCW]

I bring this up because one of today's selling points is (to paraphrase) "we used to be considered a cult but are no longer and part of the reason is Rosalie is not the head, charismatic figure." I will concede she is not charismatic. But she is the central figure in the way international. She is just a little slicker than her predecessors.

Talk about slick. It was clear that Rosalie'a agenda from the moment she came on the scene, that she was there for one reason - to take over the joint. Few people know that it was ROSALIE, not LCM that began the process of getting rid of people from HQ that she could not control. I would even go so far as to guess that it was she who gave the idea to Craig that led to all of the mark & avoid BS. While the ministry was reeling in the turmoil and "smoke" from Gear's Passing of a Patriarch, Rosalie was busy, getting rid of people from the departments she ran. The first one was about TWO YEARS before "the big purge."

She had the "Safety Dept" in full police regalia, gun & all, escort a staff member out of the building because he confronted her with a list of things happening @ HQ that were "off the Word." He showed her specific scriptures to back up what he was saying. She fired him on the spot. I got canned about a year later.. about a year after that people were lined up in the hall outside the trustees offices and fired, one by one.... Now... Guess who's in charge...

[skyrider]

Talk about slick. It was clear that Rosalie'a agenda from the moment she came on the scene, that she was there for one reason - to take over the joint. Few people know that it was ROSALIE, not LCM that began the process of getting rid of people from HQ that she could not control. I would even go so far as to guess that it was she who gave the idea to Craig that led to all of the mark & avoid BS.

The top-tier leaders in twi have been manipulating things ever since I can remember. IMO....the corps assignments are nothing more than "playing favorites." They gave their crony-pals more highly-prized assignments and would send others to places on the field like Mississippi or North Dakota or Wyoming. The good ole boys club was alive and well in twi.

Corps with inheritance money.......G&P Freder1ck, B&D Moneyhands, L MacDuff1e and others were pampered and coddled. Same goes for physicians and celebrities (if any came). Wierwille and co. were hypocritical in favoritism towards money and status.

They've reaped what they sowed.......for decades.

[excathedra]

hey HCW how are you doing ? nice to see you !

i can't stand rosalie rivenbark -- never could -- such a phony. i came to detest veepig and a few others.

after i was initially hoodwinked and indoctrinated in college, i did feel really uncomfortable more times than i can count. but i guess as time went on i was thinking i was in a movement of god.

once i left, i never longed for or looked for another obscure living room deal or any deal for that matter.

i am still a child of god and saved by my lord jesus christ, but that was true before the way, in spite of the way -- and the catholic church -- for that matter.