SIT, TIP, Prophecy and Confession

[Steve Lortz]

I haven't voted in the poll, because my opinion is not listed. My answer would be they are real, I have heard and done tongues and prophecy. I can't say for sure I've ever done interpretation as described in the New Testament. I don't think ANYBODY has an accurate doctrine about how they work.

I think the Word talks about the mind and the heart. The mind is the organ of conscious thought. The heart is the repository of thought on which the mind no longer has to focus attention. It's like learning to drive a car. When you are first learning how, you have to pay very careful attention to when and where you place your right foot, operating the gas and the brake pedal. But after you've driven for a while, you no longer need to pay attention to what you're doing with your right foot. You have "internalized" the process. Then, one day you are riding in a car driven by your friend, and you come to a situation where you would brake, but she doesn't. Immediately, without thinking, you stomp your right foot on the passenger-side floor.

We build our attitudes of heart by what we make a habit out of paying attention to. There are always things to be anxious about. There are always things to be thankful for. If we spend more time thinking about the things we have to be anxious about rather than the things we have to be thankful for, we will have anxious, griping, bitter attitudes of heart. If we spend more time thinking about the things we have to be thankful for than the things we have to be anxious about, then our attitudes of heart will be more peaceful and confident and grateful.

So... we pattern our attitudes of heart by paying attention to our habitual thoughts and controlling them. Next step:

The love of God is poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit He has given to us. If our attitudes of heart are crummy, we don't recognize the love of God. If our hearts are receptive to gratitude, we DO recognize specifically the love that God is pouring into our hearts. Final step:

Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. We speak out the love that God is pouring through our hearts, without using our minds to censor it, and God speaks through us the things that the listeners need to hear in order to know that God is real, He knows what's going on in their hearts, and He cares about them.

This happened to me a number of times before I ever heard about TWI or PFAL. It happened to me a number of times while I was involved with TWI (though not usually in the approved setting for manifestations), and it has knowingly happened to me a number of times at the School of Theology.

Love,

Steve

[waysider]

Here's a stray thought that passed through my mind:

If TIP and Prophesy are really "spiritually energized", why is knowledge of scripture or scripture-related phraseology required to produce it?

Edited July 20, 2013 by waysider

[Steve Lortz]

Here's a stray thought that passed through my mind:

If TIP and Prophesy are really "spiritually energized", why is knowledge of scripture or scripture-related phraseology required to produce it?

I don't agree with Raf's contention that every one of us was faking all of the time, but I can't and won't argue against the fact that most of us were faking at least part if not most of the time. That's what we were taught to do in the excellors' sessions.

There were two things about TWI's interpretation and prophecy that seem bogus to me looking back. First, in none of the genuine instances that I remember did God ever come out and announce that He was the one doing the talking. Second, in none of the genuine instances I experienced did God ever use any extra-special, pseudo-biblical language.

Part of the CULTure of TWI was the "insider" language used by "grads" of the classes. I think the "knowledge of scripture or scripture-related phraseology" required to produce approved manifestations (faked) was part of the insider language.

Love,

Steve

[WordWolf]

As this thread unfolded,

I went from the opinion of "I see no reason to question modern SIT as I was taught it"

to "I see good reasons to question it, and none to bolster the argument"

and ended at "I see no reason to question the claim it was all a fake."

(I'm still open to a good reason, but I'm doubting there is one.)

I am not convinced that there is no Biblical SIT being practiced SOMEWHERE or

possible/available TO be practiced. I know what I experienced was not it.

I guess I'm an SIT agnostic. :)

As for interpretation/prophesy stuff,

I'm convinced it COULD have been faked,

and almost all the time, it WAS faked.

However,

I know of a few instances where I do not think it was faked,

and an actual message from God may have been heard.

Neither of 2 that spring to mind used twi jargon,

and neither of the 2 used the normal formulations.

[excathedra]

This happened to me a number of times before I ever heard about TWI or PFAL. It happened to me a number of times while I was involved with TWI (though not usually in the approved setting for manifestations), and it has knowingly happened to me a number of times at the School of Theology.

steve, if and/or when you are in the mood, would you private message me and tell me about these incidents. i would be so happy because i need my faith restored. going through a hard time.

love,e

[chockfull]

Hoping that my reply takes it to page 100

YES!!!!!

Edited July 23, 2013 by chockfull

[Raf]

We could always start arguing again, bring it to 125

[chockfull]

We could always start arguing again, bring it to 125

I would have to enact the one beer per argument rule, which would only take us to about page 103 or so :biglaugh:/>

Edited July 23, 2013 by chockfull

[George Aar]

I've just dropped in for the first time in years, but I thought I'd add this.

Has anyone seen "Religulous"? A sometimes interesting, often annoying critique of religion in general by Bill Maher, great humanitarian and smartass of our time.

Anyway, there are a few minutes of video in that movie of people outside of WayWorld speaking in tongues, and it's creepy. REALLY creepy. But, as with The Way, the folks seem VERY pleased with themselves to be bringing forth this miraculous stuff into the world. It's PROOF by golly.

As far as interpreting or prophesying, I'd say that I pretty much faked it. I was trying my best to do as I was told, but it never seemed like anything but just making things up extemporaneously. And I noticed over the years that the brighter, more eloquent people usually had the more eloquent interpretations as well. And those not as bright were - surprise - rather dull and dopey in whatever they "brought forth" as well.

The tongues SEEMED real, though. I mean, there was something going on there, obviously. But WHAT was going on, I'm pretty sure, was nothing more than a parlor trick. Like firewalking or voodoo or tarot cards, people can be convinced that easily explainable phenomenon are the work of God or the devil, if the one doing the explaining is himself deluded or has a vested interest in continuing the delusion.

Edited July 24, 2013 by George Aar

[johniam]

quote: Here's a stray thought that passed through my mind:

If TIP and Prophesy are really "spiritually energized", why is knowledge of scripture or scripture-related phraseology required to produce it?

Uh, because scripture is the basis for all things spiritually energized. At least, all things from God. Duh. Bet you get a lot of stray thoughts like that. Yeah, they should have called it 'stray thoughts by Jack Handy'.

[OldSkool]

Uh, because scripture is the basis for all things spiritually energized.

Just a random thought, or few. What about all that time between Adam and Moses, where there was no scripture (aka Holy Writings)? What was the basis for all things spiritually energized during that time period? The stars? Was there a burning bush prophesied in the stars? or is that knowledge lost?

[WordWolf]

quote: Here's a stray thought that passed through my mind:

If TIP and Prophesy are really "spiritually energized", why is knowledge of scripture or scripture-related phraseology required to produce it?

Uh, because scripture is the basis for all things spiritually energized. At least, all things from God.

That does not follow logically. That's why you had to change the subject fast.

Duh. Bet you get a lot of stray thoughts like that. Yeah, they should have called it 'stray thoughts by Jack Handy'.

No real effort to address the question, just a personal attack.

If something is related SPECIFICALLY to the "mechanics" of spirit,

if its sum and substance is SPIRITUAL, then its composition is PRIMARILY spiritual and its MECHANICS

are primarily spiritual.

Written text is PRIMARILY intellectual, and secondarily anything else.

The point that was raised was the NEED for a specific PHRASEOLOGY to produce an effect

that SUPPOSEDLY was SPIRITUAL and NOT intellectual.

When the mysticism is stripped away, that is an issue that can't be laughed off with

a glib phrase, an insult, and a change of subject.

Another is the OBVIOUS COMMONALITY of the speakers. In twi, everybody's TIP and prophesy

sounded the same as everyone else's. And in ex-twi groups, when doctrine changed

overnight, and everyone's beliefs changed overnight, the TIP and prophesy changed

overnight and just happened to match it completely.

Those STRONGLY suggest that was all a matter of intellect, belief, and group cohesion

rather than a thing NOT of any of those.

Edited July 24, 2013 by WordWolf

[Raf]

For personal reasons, I am withdrawing from the serious side of this conversation. It's not that I've changed my mind, but I just think it's best at this point that I stay out of it.

If anyone wants to continue the discussion, feel free. If mods are called in, I promise to ask others for input and intervention first.

[waysider]

quote:

... scripture is the basis for all things spiritually energized.

Interestingly, this contradicts the Advanced Class definitions for the revelation manifestations.

Is word of knowledge considered to be spiritually energized? If so, here's what the A.C. syllabus has to say:

".....you may receive from God, by His revealing it to you, certain truths or facts concerning any situation about which it is humanly impossible for you by your five senses to know anything."

Now, before you go off about how TIP/Prophesy is not done by revelation, I remind you that you said "all things spiritually energized".

[chockfull]

All right - one serious comment. I will say that over the course of this thread, I have become a lot more aware of the potential and likelihood for fraud associated with this topic.

I'm reminded of VPW's story of first SIT in TWLIL. He went to a convention, was up on stage with Oral Roberts and some others. They tried to help him SIT. He spoke a few words of some known languages and perpetuated a fraud. (After that was his experience with JE Stiles, where he had the life-changing experience - the one where an important part of the story is stating that "no woman was going to be around when he manifested, and that women can't be trusted" - some of his misogynistic comments.) In many ways maybe VP was subconsciously telling the real story. He saw the impact Oral was having, wanted some for himself, and perpetuated a fraud to have greater power and influence. We got swept up in it, and anyone having a genuine experience probably was the exception not the rule. And the Pharisee doctrine that engulfs what was taught around the topic is well able to easily engulf and taint the experience itself. And yes, VPW, despite your false doctrine and teachings, it is fairly easy to counterfeit that experience.

I am withdrawing from the serious side of this conversation.

On the more jovial side of the conversation, have you led any more people you've met on the street into SIT the contrived way?

Which, BTW, does show you a whole lot about what's possible. Thx for that.

[Raf]

That was very, very big of you, chockfull.

I have not had the occasion or the interest to "lead" other non-believers into "SIT."

I am awaiting the publication of a linguistic study of the practice and am refraining from revisiting this topic in any substantive way until then.

[Raf]

If I were designing the poll today, I would add the following options:

I didn't fake it. I believe it's real but not necessarily as taught by any of the denominations listed above.

And/Or

I didn't fake it; not 100 percent sure how it works, but it would not surprise me to learn that many, if not most, people faked it.

Again, I apologize for my early use of the the words "liars" and "lying" and all its variations. I do believe we were all being sincere and that we WANTED this experience to be real. My opinion of how far we were willing to go, to the point of self-deception, obviously differs from the honest opinion of other posters.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Raf

[excathedra]

thank you dearest steve for your PM

george, i am so happy to see you. i mean it. how are you doing? i miss you.

love,e

[johniam]

quote: If TIP and Prophesy are really "spiritually energized", why is knowledge of scripture or scripture-related phraseology required to produce it?

I just think that's a lame question, but here's another one. If parting the Red Sea was really energized by God, then why did Moses have to lift up his rod and stretch his hand over the sea (Ex. 14:16)? Here's another one. If capturing Jericho was really energized by God, then why did the warriors of Israel have to circle the city 7 times and blow trumpets (Josh 6:4)? Look! God does what God does and people do what people do. Why is this such a difficult concept? If this is how you think, then you need never run out of silly arguments. If God exists, then why is there air? If the devil exists, then why are there cars? Hey, don't let me stop you. I guess I DO have time for this after all.

[waysider]

quote: If TIP and Prophesy are really "spiritually energized", why is knowledge of scripture or scripture-related phraseology required to produce it?

I just think that's a lame question, but here's another one. If parting the Red Sea was really energized by God, then why did Moses have to lift up his rod and stretch his hand over the sea (Ex. 14:16)? Here's another one. If capturing Jericho was really energized by God, then why did the warriors of Israel have to circle the city 7 times and blow trumpets (Josh 6:4)? Look! God does what God does and people do what people do. Why is this such a difficult concept? If this is how you think, then you need never run out of silly arguments. If God exists, then why is there air? If the devil exists, then why are there cars? Hey, don't let me stop you. I guess I DO have time for this after all.

Your "argument" is totally disconnected from the point at hand. Simply try to answer the question without resorting to unrelated rhetoric. Am I asking you you do something unreasonable?

This is the statement you made:

"... scripture is the basis for all things spiritually energized."

So, the onus is on you to illustrate how that statement applies to the examples you listed.

Edited July 28, 2013 by waysider

[waysider]

John

This is somewhat peripheral to the central discussion but I think it needs to be examined in order to gain more insight into the main topic.

Scripture is known by the 5 senses. (seeing, hearing, touch, in the case of Braille)

Wierwille said, in the AC, that revelation involves something that is IMPOSSIBLE to know by the five senses.

Do you consider revelation to be be spiritually energized? If you do, it disproves your statement.

[chockfull]

quote: If TIP and Prophesy are really "spiritually energized", why is knowledge of scripture or scripture-related phraseology required to produce it?

It shouldn't be. Of course it is if people are trying to impress someone in public, thus need to invent something more intellectual sounding.

I just think that's a lame question, but here's another one. If parting the Red Sea was really energized by God, then why did Moses have to lift up his rod and stretch his hand over the sea (Ex. 14:16)?

So the people seeing the miracle would trust Moses instructions rather than just freaking out?

Here's another one. If capturing Jericho was really energized by God, then why did the warriors of Israel have to circle the city 7 times and blow trumpets (Josh 6:4)?

So that the city inhabitants that had been trash talking all got the correct picture about who was winning?

Look! God does what God does and people do what people do. Why is this such a difficult concept? If this is how you think, then you need never run out of silly arguments. If God exists, then why is there air? If the devil exists, then why are there cars? Hey, don't let me stop you. I guess I DO have time for this after all.

While I do subscribe to a child-like trust of God, the sheer evidence of the potential for fraud perpetuated by men mean that you need to question things, and be what is the phrase? "wise as serpents harmless as doves". Without that people's opinion would be like I saw on TV on the "Hatfields and McCoys" - a little girl died and all the surrounding religious people were saying it was God's will. This type of thing involves critical thinking. Critical thinking is a little harder to come by when you are a walking encyclopedia of VPW "Lifelines" quotes.

[WordWolf]

It would sound more like you actually cared and were interested in the subject-

rather than just preserving your previous opinions without even exploring how they got there-

if you didn't just blow off questions and change the subject.

If your beliefs are worth keeping, than a thorough exploration of them will

DEEPEN YOUR FAITH.

Only a shallow, baseless faith need be "defended" by illogical tactics and troll-like

behavior. I've found it fascinating to see both the points people bring to the discussion

and the manner in which they bring them.

I've disagreed with people but respected their positions after seeing them present them-

depending on what they said and how they said it. I've even suggested discussions were

worth a try on the off-chance someone would bring something new to the table.

(They didn't, but I at least was willing to give them a chance.)

"I just think that's a lame question". Yeah, well every question would be responded to

SOMEWHERE by SOMEONE that way, regardless of the question. However, sometimes even the

most trivial-sounding questions have resulted in insights not anticipated when the

threads began. Me, I had a thread about whether Samson and Jesus were molested

(like was taught in twi) and exploring the subjects was fascinating.

[excathedra]

i do have a deep faith but i don't think it has anything to do with sit tip propecy and confession

well maybe confession :evildenk:/>

Edited July 28, 2013 by excathedra

[johniam]

quote:

Critical thinking is a little harder to come by when you are a walking encyclopedia of VPW "Lifelines" quotes.

It's all but impossible when you're convinced VP is the devil!