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What-would_you_do_if

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You suddenly woke up, and everything you believed was, just, plain, WRONG..

"I would be very angry" was one reply.. why? I mean, wouldn't one be relieved of responsibility or something?

It wasn't my fault.. it wasn't my delusion..

everything was wrong. Up was not "down". that would be more predictable..

:biglaugh:

not down..

in less than a fraction of a second..

why be angry. They asked.. You were deceived..

every thing I have experienced has so far been one step (or was it) one stumbling block along the way..

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When it happened to me, about 9 years before I was exposed to TWI, I lost all sense of identity. I was in such shock that I wasn't able to eat or sleep for the first week. For the following two years, I was on a slippery slope to losing control of everything. I thought of it as "going crazy" at the time. And there were people around me, in the same situation I was in who WERE literally going crazy! There were three times during those two years when I stood on the edge of losing it. The first two times, I was able to change some aspect of my life to distract myself.

The third time, at the end of the two years, I was by myself in the Engine Room Lower Level of the USS Pogy. I was sobbing uncontrollably. I started to hyperventilate. There was nothing about the sea I could change. There was nothing about the ship I could change. There was nothing about the people around me I could change. There was nothing about my schedule or way of living I could change... And I knew this was it... I was going to go crazy if something didn't change. If I had lost control of my breathing, what ELSE was I going to lose control of????????????????????????????????

I literally cried out, "God help me..."

I wasn't particularly religious growing up. I wasn't expecting any result. I had just exhausted every other conceivable option. As I cried out, I remembered there was a verse where Jesus had said he would do whatever we asked, if we asked in his name.

"...in the name of Jesus Christ..." I finished.

Immediately my breathing returned to normal and I began to calm down. The Lord started teaching me how to change the things that were in my heart. I didn't go crazy. That was thirty-nine years ago. It was another seven years before I even heard of TWI. The Lord is STILL teaching me how to change the things that are in my heart, so that God's love, which is shed abroad in my heart by the holy Spirit He has given me can better overflow out of my mouth, out where it can be heard in my words, and seen in my actions.

I've gone through other paradigm shifts since then. One of the biggest was finding out first about LCM's sexual predations, and then about Wierwille's. Another was realizing that I couldn't look to the leaders of ANY of the splinter groups for things I should be looking to the Lord for.

All for now...

Love,

Steve

Edited by Steve Lortz
  • Upvote 2

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You suddenly woke up, and everything you believed was, just, plain, WRONG..

"I would be very angry" was one reply.. why? I mean, wouldn't one be relieved of responsibility or something?

It wasn't my fault.. it wasn't my delusion..

everything was wrong. Up was not "down". that would be more predictable..

:biglaugh:

not down..

in less than a fraction of a second..

why be angry. They asked.. You were deceived..

every thing I have experienced has so far been one step (or was it) one stumbling block along the way..

Really?

I don't get how that would work.

Everything you believed is wrong.

But it's not your fault or delusion?

Wrong requires some definition - and I think the context you're describing starts with "different" - I think we have to start with different and what's different.

The novelettes written about the guy who wakes up and finds his whole world's change, everything's different and his reality different - hasn't really changed.

He's still himself, at that moment, and has the same sense of self he had before his reality changed. Soooo, we're not dealing in a repeatable proposition here Hamling - if "he" is still this "other" person that knows his reality changed he's probably - conjecture #1 - actually replaced someone, the someone who created the reality he's now faced with. Or conjecture #2, this "new" reality has come from another place, another source and replaced his last known reality.

In either case or any others, he's still the same, he's the constant - because he KNOWS there's been a change of some kind and therefore registers the reaction that everything he (had) believed was "wrong".

And back to wrong, it would be different but not really WRONG to it's own context, where that reality is what it is. It would only be wrong in relation to the perception of the person who wakes up and finds everything he believed to now be "wrong".

My question is really involving the statement that in that scenario, it's "not your fault or delusion".

It would have to be - both the previous "wrong" one and your perception of the change, because you're the one bringing the awareness.

This goes to the concept of perceptions of reality - I would site Descarte's "Meditations on First Philosophy". That would be my starting point for your proposition - as long as there's a "i" in that "you", everything can't be wrong, or by another word different at any given point.

If it were for the sake of argument I'd start with "i" - am I here, am I aware, am I cognizant of myself? If "check", next step....

When am "i" now....before where - do I know my age, the date, the year. If that's changed then I would have a basis to view this new reality.

Where would be next - has my location changed too?

But first would be "me" (pinch pinch - ow! okay...although I could save a second once I realize I'm thinking I need to confirm that I'm good to go....)

and then Me when - the one thing that I CANT change is time, my age, etc. that's outside my purview so if that in fact had changed I'd be able to now say that this new reality wasn't MY delusion or fault because it's cause would be outside my controls. So gimme 200, I'm ready to pass GO in the New Reality.

Steve's described a situation where all of that had not changed and was very much exactly what he saw and perceived. So again, there's no total change, in fact there's total sameness. I guess, based on what's written.

The real question comes to "why" - and that requires the "i" where nothing has really or actually changed (in this scenario) -

because I am still perceiving the changes so hallelooyah!!! Glory!!! I'm still here.

"Someday" if I find myself before God and He says "Wow. You really had it wrong. What's up with that? I mean, REALLY wrong, dude"....

I will simply hope to remember to say....."(gulp)....Well, yeah if you say so, yes. It was my life and I did what I did and I'll stand by it, in this case for the worst. But I'd be more than happy to learn - in either case, I'm in Your Hands, Doc."....

And in that scenario I would be. There's not much else TO say, that I can think of. But I don't think I could say that it wasn't my fault of my delusion, or my reality. It was, no one else's. For starters. Not EVERYthing is my fault, but as a participant and reviewer of my own reality I think I would have to accept my part in it.

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From Kris' book, Losing The Way:

From Chapter Sixteen:

Picture this. You’re on a cruise ship sailing through the Caribbean. The weather is balmy, bright afternoon sunshine, soft breeze, not too hot, not too cold. Just right. You’re on the deck sunning just as you’ve been doing every day for fifteen years. You wear a shocking pink two-piece bathing suit to offset a dark tan. Your book, a mystery, lies open face down on the floor next to a dripping pina colada. Your eyes are closed under dark sunglasses.

Late in the day, clouds start to roll in. The water becomes choppy. The captain hobbles by and greets you. You do not notice his peg leg and the black patch over his right eye. He says a storm is blowing in. It would be best if you went down below. You thank him, as you have done every day for fifteen years, and you gather your things. He is such a nice captain.

Only this day is different. This time, when you open your eyes, you take off your sunglasses. You look up. You notice a black flag with the white skull and cross bones flying overhead. Has this flag always been there? Where is the American flag that was there yesterday? Something is wrong. This is not the Love Boat. This is a pirate’s ship.

You ask your husband, a crewmember. Do you see the flag? Do you see what I see? He aspires to become First Mate. He does not want to see it. You tell him you and he should leave. He does not want to leave. He becomes angry when you tell him what you have seen. He does not believe you. You take off his dark glasses. Tell him to look. He sees the flag. He confronts the Captain. The Captain hands him a sword. Arm yourself, my boy, says the Captain. Protect the Queen’s one true flagship.

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Yeh, well with all due respect to Kris and what she's written, that doesn't fill the bill of everything changing, maybe we're talking about different things here ways'.

If it's someone who told me something and lied, that's not the same. Thinking all these people are one thing and saying these things but now I understand them to mean something else and have different intents -

That's not the same as everything changing and finding out everything is wrong.

I knew Kris and respect what she's written. I'm not going to comment on that, her situation and her specific references.

Is that the point of your post Ham? I didn't catch that.

I would contend in that most extreme circumstances the ability for one to hold on to one's self awareness and self esteem to the end they can recover their own self awareness and respect is the path to ultimate self awareness and realization. I don't contend that reality can be measured as a delusion or delusional, one's own reality is utmost because for them, that's all there is. Understanding it as a part of a greater reality that includes others is essential.

In other words, everything is never wrong, and understanding the specific things in any circumstance as we work though it, the things that tether us to a true reality is job #1.If we're unable to do that, we do need the assistance that will help us to do that. Without that, and getting to or back to that place we're kind of stuck without a way to move.

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Speaking from my experience, my reality (or perception thereof) was shattered by four major events in the space of two years. There were two things that I held to be "true":

1. The Way International represented God and His Word.

2. My parents' marriage would last forever and was a perfect example of what I should base my marriage on.

The three realizations were:

1. TWI leadership was legalistic and controlling at the corps level. There was no spirit of God working there. TWI had become burning and lifeless.

2. The same thing was true at the fellowship level.

3. TWI/Weirwille/Rosalie were all liars.

4. My parents were getting divorced, had been separated for years and never told any of us kids. They had been keeping up a sham of a marriage for decades.

I was pretty devasted. It felt like someone had died. Everything I had based my life on was a lie. It was horrible, and it took a long time to recover. I had to go through everything in my life, examine it, and determine if it was real or not. I feel like most of my life was an illusion, and it really angered me that I had been deceived since childhood. Everything I knew was based on a lie, and that was wrong.

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Speaking from my experience,

I always enjoy reading your experiences. I am also extremely thankful that my son has no idea wtf a way international is.

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You suddenly woke up, and everything you believed was, just, plain, WRONG..

I felt like that leaving TWI. No support systems. No friends, distanced family. Felt like the ground under my feet was shaky. Had a nagging feeling the devil was going to ruin my life for the choice.

But the smell of putrid fruit in my nose from the myriad of sources in the TWI leadership chain were so strong that I couldn't put my nose back to sleep and go back to them. I had to move onward.

And it got better. Slowly. What did I do? Survive. Then heal.

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You suddenly woke up, and everything you believed was, just, plain, WRONG..

i don't know. i've "woken up" (not from sleep, but in my life's journey) and realized things I believed were wrong. this has happened to me since age -- when's my first memory -- my brother (a year and 4 months younger) was in a stroller and didn't walk yet, so i was pretty young. his stroller fell down the stairs and i just remember a yellow wash cloth because the blood stood out so much brighter on yellow. i think i learned that people i love get hurt.

i could go and on and on

growing up and day by day realizing the abuse my mom was suffering (and us kids too) -- seeing kids in school who were not abused

then we have the catholic church and some horrific things happened to my little brothers

then we have the uncle i worshipped and that betrayal and the the way and then marriage for wrong reasons and jesus i better stop because it will take a book

i believe personally that god has done the best he can, jesus christ without a doubt, and me too

bring on the next life - there's that thing about being known even as we are known or something - my first request might be "help me know myself" -- of course that's an endeavor of mine now -- but i want to fully know if possible

thanks for listening

ps. i don't think i could have handled what steve handled :knuddel:

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ok can't shut up

i think veep and others hurt me on my journey and took advantage of some of my vulnerabilities which were leftovers from others who hurt me along life's path

i have good examples outside the wayfer scene

where am i now? many times very depressed and messed up and not very trusting of shrinks

heartbroken that my one child is struggling growing up (you know, one calling at least could be a fantastic mother, for gods sake)

trying to find a job and realizing how it's not easy anymore -- it used to be i was always hired, very well compensation, promoted, etc.

but guess what, i'm not going back to the city - i can't - i don't have the strength, so i'm hoping god will help me keeping this house and finding something that doesn't kill me :)

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But it's not your fault or delusion?

it is a hundred percent mine.

a hundred percent my fault.. a hundred percent my delusion. That is "reality", isn't it?

:biglaugh:

I chose to be blinded by some godless religion, like thousands of others like me..

I dunno.

I still believe in Jesus. In a logical frame of reference, why, I do not know.

sounds like the same for you Excie..

I just hope he shows up, sometime, somewhere..

:biglaugh:

don't confuse the laughter with lack of faith or something.. there always seems to be some ungodly thread to hold on to..

:biglaugh:

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You suddenly woke up, and everything you believed was, just, plain, WRONG..

"I would be very angry" was one reply..

I was very angry, but not at first....

My husband got a job right after our Recognized Family Corps year as a chef (his trade), and I was refused a place in the Way Productions dance group (my trade). I sucked it up.

My husband got kicked out of working at HQ when he revealed he was still an active alcoholic. I got kicked out with him, though I had done nothing wrong. In the middle of the night, without my input (and my input was later refused), we were "assigned" as far from my family as we could possibly get. My parents hardly got to see their first grandchild. I sucked it up and went.

The leader who was supposed to help my husband refused to help him. Instead, I was left with a sometimes violent man. I sucked it up, and wrote a letter to the "man of God," who had written me (and everyone else) to ask why I hadn't gone to the Rock and Corps Week that year, and how had he failed me? I told him how.

I received an answer from Mr. Wierwille, self-proclaimed "father in the Word." He scrawled in the margins of my letter that I was "bitter." THEN, I got angry. I knew I wasn't bitter, I knew I had done everything he had told me to do, and done it willingly. He had broken his word to get my husband help, and had abandoned me and my young children.

I had always promised myself that if TWI stopped standing for the Word, I would stop standing for TWI. (It was much later, and thanks to WayDale and Greasespot, that I learned TWI was never about the Word of God.) The time had come, after 12 years of faithful service, and I left.

I will admit that it took still more years to separate the wheat from the chaff of TWI in my life, but I never second guessed my decision to leave. I should have made it sooner.

Edited by shazdancer
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"I received an answer from Mr. Wierwille, self-proclaimed "father in the Word." He scrawled in the margins of my letter that I was "bitter."

Interesting how they always resort to name calling and negative labels as a control. If we had been a band of PIRATES rather than good hearted souls, this tactic would have never worked!

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My husband got kicked out of working at HQ when he revealed he was still an active alcoholic.

I guess there was ever only room for one alcoholic at HQ - Wierwille.

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I guess there was ever only room for one alcoholic at HQ - Wierwille.

Fer sure, OldSkool. Kinda hypocritical, wasn't it? But I should have thanked him. Instead of thinking that TWI was a great ministry with a few overly-zealous types in it, I learned that it stank from the top down.

"I received an answer from Mr. Wierwille, self-proclaimed "father in the Word." He scrawled in the margins of my letter that I was "bitter."

Interesting how they always resort to name calling and negative labels as a control. If we had been a band of PIRATES rather than good hearted souls, this tactic would have never worked!

I agree. And since I knew my own heart, I knew right away that Wierwille wasn't full of "heavy revvy," like he wanted us all to think he was. He was full of something else.

Edited by shazdancer

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I was very angry, but not at first....

My husband got a job right after our Recognized Family Corps year as a chef (his trade), and I was refused a place in the Way Productions dance group (my trade). I sucked it up.

My husband got kicked out of working at HQ when he revealed he was still an active alcoholic. I got kicked out with him, though I had done nothing wrong. In the middle of the night, without my input (and my input was later refused), we were "assigned" as far from my family as we could possibly get. My parents hardly got to see their first grandchild. I sucked it up and went.

The leader who was supposed to help my husband refused to help him. Instead, I was left with a sometimes violent man. I sucked it up, and wrote a letter to the "man of God," who had written me (and everyone else) to ask why I hadn't gone to the Rock and Corps Week that year, and how had he failed me? I told him how.

I received an answer from Mr. Wierwille, self-proclaimed "father in the Word." He scrawled in the margins of my letter that I was "bitter." THEN, I got angry. I knew I wasn't bitter, I knew I had done everything he had told me to do, and done it willingly. He had broken his word to get my husband help, and had abandoned me and my young children.

I had always promised myself that if TWI stopped standing for the Word, I would stop standing for TWI. (It was much later, and thanks to WayDale and Greasespot, that I learned TWI was never about the Word of God.) The time had come, after 12 years of faithful service, and I left.

I will admit that it took still more years to separate the wheat from the chaff of TWI in my life, but I never second guessed my decision to leave. I should have made it sooner.

How are you and your children today? I could answer that question as well..for me and my children far better off..

but still.. for a brief moment, I saw everything in God's creation melt into the light..

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How are you and your children today? I could answer that question as well..for me and my children far better off..

but still.. for a brief moment, I saw everything in God's creation melt into the light..

I've had an interesting life, no doubt about it, some of it very rough. Did the dance thing for over 25 years, hard work but rewarding. Got to where the body wouldn't let me do that anymore, so went to grad school and am 8 years into my second career, doing well. Left the drinker on "the field" where they sent us, later married another TWI-er who was messed up (I just can't pick 'em), divorced him , too. Raised my kids alone. They are grown up now and are AWESOME, and smart, funny, well-liked, and kind.

No question, life is so much better out of TWI. I met some very good people, and I met some jerks. Now, I got out in '85-ish, so I wasn't "in" during the Craig years. (I was like, "WHO is the new prez? You're kidding! Seriously?") So I'm talkin' about TWI under Wierwille. LIFE IS BETTER OUT -- MUCH, MUCH BETTER. And my kids are reaping the benefits of being raised mostly out. They are not tied to having to live up to the whim of a cornfield preacher in Ohio or his legacy.

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