Sin is not an issue with God, it is a son issue. What does one believe what Jesus accomplished for us? We are part of Christ's body, our sin debt has been settled as far as God is concerned, because he raised up Jesus from among the dead. The Way called me a unbelieving believer, I guess I was sinning by not going to twig when I was supposed to.
Hi Everyone...But one thing that was said, that really got me to thinking and that was, If you have unconditional salvation, then sin is a non-issue...
I just would like to know if you have changed your beliefs from when you were in TWI about salvation.
As always, thanks for your post.
Newlife
Hi Newlife,
RE: "If you have unconditional salvation, then sin is a non-issue...," Sounds to me like one of these catchy, pat phrases that is designed to get you to thinking, but not necessarily because it has any sound thinking to be arrived at by all your thinking. Sin is still sin. Unconditional salvation doesn't change the nature of sin. Sin is evil. The sinner is still tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. The thief comes not but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. Serious stuff; he is out to kill you, and take away everything godly that you've already built up in this life, and also take away everything good that you could build up in this life, and be rewarded for in the next.
The one who uses his liberty in Christ as an occasion to sin might treat it as a non-issue, but that doesn't make it a non-issue. Sin still has dire consequences. It offends God, does despite to the Spirit, screws up marriages, & every relationship, screws up your life in every way. It's accurately likened to one eating his own vomit. To use liberty as an occasion to sin is a really stupid move, after which the sinner is walking in darkness - how great is that darness - he doesn't even know what he is stumbling over, but one thing many sinners know at that point is that far from being a non-issue, their sin has become an insurmountable issue, they're lives unmanageable, themselves out of control. In a moment of clarity, they might look back to see how foolish they were to think their liberty made sin a non-issue. To say unconditional salvation makes sin a non-issue is to adopt the attitude of the foolish sinner at his most naive point, and make a doctrine out of it.
Rather say that salvation with conditions is like love with strings. We have not been freely given; we cannot freely give. The love with which we are supposed to serve one another takes on a great propensity to selfishness. The fruit of the Spirit against which there was no law now suddenly has laws that can stop it. The Spirit by which we crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts now finds us trying of ourselves to stay in salvation instead of as Jude 1:21 says, "Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Have my beliefs concerning salvation changed concerning salvation changed since I left TWI. YES! We were taught that God moved in Christ; now it is our move was error % opened the door for all manner of sin. God is ALWAYS 1st in the Spirit. Remember God said that all these spiritual matters were operated by God. 1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. Triple reflective pointing to God energizes, divides, & distributes. But it was changed to a car battery that we operated, not God, & we operated it at our own will. That fleshly weak will just let us back into eating our own vomit again, being desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another
Since the coming of Jesus Christ with the Comforter, we're supposed to love each other like Jesus loved us. He spoke the Word to us & said the Father was doing the works in him that were the words he spoke, & that's how he kept the Adversary out of our lives. He saw the Father work & he worked - that close. We are supposed to one with Jesus & GOd the way Jesus was one with God. We're supposed to see Jesus, the head over all things to the church working - and we work - that close. And every input energized by Christ & spoken by us comes from glory and keeps the Adversary away from our family. We ride that glory trail led by the glorified one, giving us input from the place where he is - looking for the mercy of the Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. That's what my understanding of salvation has evolved into. And nothing shall separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus. Jesus made sin a non-issue. Walking as he walked keeps it that way practically - nothing less or other works. That's salvation; salvation trumps everything.
Galatians 6:18 Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.
Tom.....THANK-YOU so much for your post. You have no idea how much I appreciate what you wrote. You know, in reading your post. I realized I am still very easily influenced by teachings by people. Maybe as much as I was when I first ran into TWI which is an eye-opener to me. If you want to add anything else, I'd especially like to read other comments you may have.
God is ALWAYS 1st in the Spirit. Remember God said that all these spiritual matters were operated by God. 1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. Triple reflective pointing to God energizes, divides, & distributes. But it was changed to a car battery that we operated, not God, & we operated it at our own will. That fleshly weak will just let us back into eating our own vomit again, being desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another
Galatians 6:18 Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.
Reconciliation is an accomplished fact. It is entirely outside of yourself, and it is simply to be received. There is a new view of living, no longer for self, but for God; to die to self and live to Christ.
God has taken the initiative to reconcile man back to himself. God is not reconciled to man, as though God were partly to blame for the enmity. Rather, man is reconciled to God, for it is man who moved away from God. When people need to be reconciled to one another, it normally involves a situation where fault lies on both sides to some degree. Not so with the case between man and God, man has moved away from God, and it is man who needs to be reconciled back to God, not God back to man.
The basic idea of reconciling is to change or make otherwise. This is the reverse of Hellenistic religion, where it is the human being that seeks restoration of the gods’ favor, and also of Judaism, where confession of sin and repentance are the means by which reconciliation with God is sought. It is not that we must reconcile ourselves to God. Rather, we are to be reconciled, that is, to accept what God has already achieved.
Thanks Teachme....reconciliation is a wonderful, wonderful reality in a believer's life. Thanks for your comments about it. Good to be reminded of that...that at one time I wasn't reconciled to God....but Thanks be to God I am today.
Yes, truly we have been reconciled to God. Although that is a spiritual reality, it's not as though it's been perfectly accomplished as far as our flesh is concerned. We still must endeavor to control ourselves and keep from acting foolishly (sinning intentionally) when we know better. "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid!" (Ro 6:1-2a) Therefore, Tom was spot-on with his reply!
Although it seems an impossible task, we are expected to continue as best we know how in becoming reconciled ever closer to God in our flesh - by imitating what we do understand to be the truth. (Please be patient!) Though we are convinced we cannot completely accomplish such a feat, God does indeed reward us for our meager efforts as we display to him our heart-felt intention to be faithful - by how we conduct ourselves in this life according to what we are sure is right and true in his eyes.
Now (concerning the area of what is considered "sinful") this needs further explanation. Ultimately - despite how hard we try - we shall all continue to "blow it" in the flesh, because perfection belongs only to God himself. Yet (understanding this shortcoming of ours, due to being human) he has graciously devised a suitable provision for it within his Word!
The question is not then, "How shall we become perfectly righteous in our walk for God" because we know such a thing is utterly impossible to perform. Instead, we should judge within ourselves whether or not we are actually intending to sin! Did we really mean to do that which we knew was wrong? We must always remember that God looks upon our hearts - not upon our flesh!
Now, what if we DID do something wrong - intentionally? What should we do then? When we ask according to the truth he will forgive us every single time: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1Jn 1:9)
Does this then become our license to continue doing what we know is wrong and just get away with it, asking for and receiving a pardon for those same things over and over again on a continual basis? No way! "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." (Ga 6:7)
So then, what's the answer? The key is in how we confess our sins. At the very moment we are confessing them to him, what we are truly requesting of God is mercy. And this is a most fantastic reality! We desire for him to pardon our sin - instead of allowing us to receive consequences for our wrongful behavior. And he will indeed extend that kindness to us each and every time - just as long as our intentions are honest!
But there's a "catch" to this, so that God is not mocked. (For how can he continue wiping the slate clean when one keeps filling it up with insincere apologies? He cannot - for God is JUST.) Please be patient with me - in order to realize God's wonderful way of extending forgiveness to us when we fall short, we must simply understand what's involved concerning mercy. Then everything else will fall into perfect alignment and harmony.
Believe it or not - according to the truth - mercy is conditional! One verse alone (below) is all you need to see to understand this. (But I will go into more detail later on to make it perfectly clear how this is actually accomplished.)
Pr 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
This is simple: If someone has done something he knows to be wrong and doesn't approach God on the matter, it remains unforgiven because (according to 1Jn 1:9) he needs to confess it in order to be forgiven. And if he tries to hide (cover) it, the above verse indicates he shall not prosper. That method will just not work!
So he must either approach God on the matter or continue on, being convicted by his own conscience all the while knowing he is neglecting his responsibility to take care of it. And as he continues to procrastinate, his own self-condemnation becomes ever stronger against him until he finally acts by admitting it to God as he should have in the first place.
Okay now we're getting somewhere! So, what should one's attitude be when he does approach God about a problem area in his life? According to Pr 8:23b, it's not enough just to confess the sin, but he must be also be willing to forsake it as well! Then he shall have mercy. (And "shall" means absolutely.) If one approaches God in this manner, he will receive mercy every single time!)
At the very moment someone tells God he's sorry, he must also be intending in his heart not to repeat the matter. (And God knows whether or not he is truly sincere.) And if he is - then no problem! He then receives mercy - and the slate is wiped clean again, just as if it never happened at all.
So what remains? Will the man commit that same error again? Probably. But to be honest, the only way to continue receiving mercy for it is to have been tricked into doing it some other waythan before, because he already knows what caused it the last time, and falling for the same old tricks over and over again doesn't fool God. We are expected to learn from our mistakes and do better each time! Now - for the "extra" I promised concerning mercy:
Pr 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.
This verse explains the rest of the process. While we are yet learning more and more about a particular sin of ours, we will continue to receive mercy for our ignorance in that matter - for as long as it takes - while we become more and more adept in dealing with it. Going to God continually with the honest intention not to repeat a matter is what buys us time and delays any consequences for the wrong action while we are continuing to learn more about that problem area.
Did you notice in the above verse that while we are receiving mercy we are also receiving more of the truth as well? (by mercy and truthiniquity is purged)What truth, you ask? - it's the finer details, which will reveal even more to us about other things which are causing that very same problem!
The rest of the verse indicates that eventually (when even a problem's most subtle causes are understood) a particular iniquity of ours will finally be purged! As we remain honest and faithful with God, there will come a time when that problem will be completely gone from our lives!
After we have finally seen our adversary's entire bag of tricks in a certain area of our life, it becomes likened to one of my favorite songs - by The Who: "We don't get fooled again!" Good! Now our enemy must find some other problem areato entice us with, because even the devil knows that tempting us where we are no longer ignorant is just plain stupid!
Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth [resists] temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
As we resist the temptation to sin, we will receive a reward!
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
No wonder the devil has to try something else! If he dares to trick us with that which we have already become proficient in, he is found to be helping us earn rewards for resisting him in that category! And he surely won't be doing that, now will he?
Let's be thankful to God for always extending his mercy to us as we persist in coming to him with a sincere heart concerning a problem area in our lives which we truly desire to be rid of! Thank God for his unending patience as he continues to gently instruct us about that problem in even finer detail, gradually allowing it to fade away into oblivion - from where it can no longer bother us!
And then we can just look back on it and laugh at how stupid we were while we kept on doing it - because now we're fully aware of how to avoid it!
That sounds like it should be the end. (But wait! There's more!)
On the other hand, what if we didn't intend to commit that sin in the first place? We only did it because we didn't know any better. Is God going to make sure we "reap what we sow" and allow us to be punished for it anyway? Would you test first graders on calculus when all they understand about math so far is how to add and subtract - and then flunk them all?
Well - neither would God punish you for something you were doing wrong, knowing that you haven't even learned about it yet! Remember 1Jn 1:9 - If we confess our sins- (???) Just how can we tell God we're sorry for doing something when we don't even know it's wrong in the first place? Well, what happens to us in that case? Nothing! He simply overlooks it. You are not responsible to God for what you aren't aware of yet!
We are only responsible to approach God for forgiveness when we know we have a problem. This is a very important lesson which needs to be understood! Carefully consider - as never before - the following verses concerning our fellowship with God:
1Jn 1:
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
As I said before, God is the only one who is perfect - and he knows that (in the flesh) we cannot be!
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
Yes! As I said before, we know that we can't go to God and fool him with insincere confessions - nor can we just ignore our problems and expect them to just go away on their own! We know when we're lying, and we know when we're trying to hide our sins from God. (And so does he!)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
We are only expected to conduct ourselves as we know best, walking in the light that we understand thus far. And what results? We have fellowship with God, his son Jesus Christ, and (hopefully) with our spiritual brothers and sisters as well - just as long as they aren't judging us according to what they know is right!
Furthermore, it says here that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin!!!That's all the stuff we still don't know about yet. As far as God is concerned, it's as though you are walking in absolute perfection - even though (being perfect himself) he knows better. And so should we! Reading on...
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
So - while we're enjoying this wonderful fellowship with God and everyone else, are we committing sins? Heck yeah! All the damn time! Why? Because we aren't perfect. But is that our sin? Is there something we should confess to God about? Not at all! As far as we know, all is well - and there's nothing we need to be ashamed about because we're doing all we know concerning what is right.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
And when we do "blow it" we go to God and simply tell him we're sorry, with the intention not to do it again. And what results? It's just as before - as far as God is concerned, we have done nothing unrighteous whatsoever!
Well, what about that? Have we really been doing anything which is considered unrighteous in God's understanding? Heck yeah! That's what we do all the time - because we humans aren't perfect - and we can't be perfect, despite how hard we try. (Do we remember verse 8?)
But - are we responsible to do anything about that imperfection of ours at the moment? No! We've just been forgiven, and (as far as God is concerned) it's just as if we hadn't even sinned at all! Accepting what God says is true concerning us, our conscience should now be clear. And we just move on with our lives, and enjoy his fellowship.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
The above verse is yet one more reminder that we truly are making mistakes all of the time, even though we aren't aware of just what they are. Being human, that's our very nature. We aren't perfect, nor even at our best are we even close! The truth be told, even that which we think we are doing right is so damn far from perfection that it's truly laughable!
1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
Whatever man does that he thinks is smart, or right, or true, or just, or righteous, or wise, etc, is sheer folly in God's eyes! It seems marvelous to me that God has yet chosen to reward us for anything we have done whatsoever!
So, we should be ever thankful for (and appreciative of) his mercy and grace, and for his patience and longsuffering on our behalf, understanding we are still considered privileged enough to be rewarded, despite the meager appearance of our best efforts - which, in reality, are next to nothing when compared to what is perfectly righteous.
What a loving God we have, who will not judge us according to our true ignorance, for in that case we would never deserve any rewards whatsoever!
So, the key in life is merely to continue doing what you have learned is right, and enjoy God's willingness to treat you as though you were just as perfect as he is, even though you know better.
And what about others who know more of the truth than you? Should you allow them to continually come at you, offering "reproof and correction" for the many things they seem to understand that you aren't doing correctly? Be very careful of this trap!
After you allow them to show your mistakes, many of these sort will not only expect you to admit to them just how sorry you are for having done such things, but will also suggest you go to God and ask his forgiveness as well for having done that which offended them - when you didn't even know you had those problems until they first brought them up! Those are not teachers, but judges! It's usually best to avoid such situations.
Should you still attend classes on Biblical truth? Yes. Should you ask questions of others to learn more about truth and error? Yes. Should you study and learn for yourself what God likes and what he doesn't so you can walk more precisely for him? Definitely! Just be careful not to ingest more at one time than you can be faithful to - and you'll be just fine.
Pr 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
Therefore, it's wise to take in only a little at a time and then put that into practice as best you can - until you understand it. Then eat a little more. That way, there's no limit as to how much you may eventually be handling properly.
But if you allow others to just feed you everything at once, you might just become responsible for more than you are willing to handle all of a sudden. Then, (being knowledgeable of all the new mistakes you are making) your conscience will take advantage of you for not being faithful to all of that, and it may be quite some time before you can truly get a proper handle on all you have recently become aware of.
To me, this is likened to Adam and Eve, who dared to eat something which they heard would make them instantly knowledgeable about everything good and evil - without having any time in between to learn how to put any of it into practice. Didn't the devil suggest that (by eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) they "would be as gods, knowing all about good and evil" ?
God would rather we didn't attempt such shortcuts in life! Instead, we should simply walk along his path of righteousness one small step at a time and allow him to show us the truth according to what he knows we can handle - and then we try our best to remain upright as we move forward, and go to him when we fall short.
And when you approach others, ask them questions to learn what they are hungry for - and feed them THAT. Anything else is just being a poor host. If someone comes along and tries to feed you something "new" without asking you about it first, kindly change the subject and inform them of something you ARE interested in consuming. And if they persist on trying to shove something else down your throat - kindly excuse yourself by telling them you just aren't hungry for that at the moment. And then leave in peace.
newlife, mine has changed but not on that point (salvation conditional on behavior, actions, "sin"). Overall I sense from the Bible that God is more interested in "saving" than not, more pro relationship and sharing than he isn't, more inclined towards grace and mercy than condemnation. The goodness of God leads to repentance....I recognize a shift from what I read in the O.T. histories and the God that Jesus preached - a complete view of God as merciful and gracious, loving and forgiving.....In the O.T. they killed, drove out, conquered and the same was returned to Israel for "sin". Christ's message picks up from that and speaks of forgiving as God forgives, as seeing God as His Father, as loving those who would be your enemy. His teachings synthesize what I read in the O.T. to a character profile that - IMO - in fact suspends judgment and imposes it on Christ, in whom we can then be reconciled through .
I understand salvation to be conditional on acceptance of Christ and that requiring a clear recognition of our own need for reconciliation to God. An act of faith that then opens up the relationship and clarity into it.
i would compare our relative understandings somewhat like a person who lives with someone and doesn't know who they really are. Eric Clapton comes to mind - his "sister" was really his Mother but he didn't know it. His mother was 16 when she gave birth to Eric and due to a whole range of circumstances thought it best if her parents could raise him and so - his parents were really his grandparents and who he was told was his "sister" was really his mother, Patricia Clapton..
In a situation like that the relationship is what it really is - and the people involved do know and relate to each other in a completely normal and natural way but not for who they really are to each other.
We can "know" God, "see" him and have understandings of Him that range from not believing He exists at all to believing He is now a "Father" to us.
Coming to a knowledge of the truth sets us free - knowing who, what, where, when and why - in that then we don't need to filter or anthro-morph it into something we can grasp but know it for what it really is. I don't think it's expected we will do that completely in this segment of life but we can continue to look, learn and understand.
Overall I sense from the Bible that God is more interested in "saving" than not, more pro relationship and sharing than he isn't, more inclined towards grace and mercy than condemnation. The goodness of God leads to repentance....
Interestingly, the Greek word for "goodness" in Ro 2:4 is chrestos, which has also been translated gentle, kind and easy. You seem to have that way about you, and I'm sure that's a blessing to many you speak to.
newlife's question brings up so many things....and you have quite a bit to chew on there too.
The nature of "sin" - that word, what is it, what does it actually mean? What is sin and more importantly - why is it, that thing or that state?
I come back to this idea of relationship and "fellowship", a sharing of life.
I took it all back to some basic realities - that we are single unique instances of consciousness - I am me, I know I'm not you or someone else and for the most part I can start by stating that a healthy human instance of life will always know that and accept it, more and more as it grows in understanding that.
While I may learn over time that I'm a "part" of other things, of everything else, that has definition - I am not a part of everything or anything else to the extent that it reduces my own awareness of self. So I could say, I'm connected through relationships and processes, each one of us with each other and with everything else we are aware of.
To me this single reality is never excepted or superceded by anything else, ever, while we are alive and aware of it. If we were to lose that sense to a demonstrable degree it would demonstrate itself by our own selves becoming less aware and conscious. Our ability to measure that basic state would degrade and we'd become unaware of ourselves. We "die" which may be what that really is.
Either way - self awareness is fundamental. It seems that separation is therefore inherent and unavoidable - we can never all of us individually be "one" because of our intuitive awareness of time and memory. So if we are separate, what does it mean really to reconcile and be "at peace"?
Wanted to add - a child would be surprised that they are in "sin" and disconnected or not aligned w/God and that there is a level of dissatisfaction in the relationship. I think this says something about what "sin" is, and to spec's points.
A two year old simply would not know that - and we know about the "terrible two's"....
A baby doesn't do anything yet. And a toddler is learning. A 3 year old will do something "bad" or wrong and not be treated like an adult who might do the same thing. Reasons are pretty obvious.
I suppose if I were to ask a child with an adult mind if they knew they were in "sin" and separated from their Creator, they might be surprised. Really? How'd that happen? Oh - hmmm. Okay. How can we fix that then, I had no idea....
If I were an adult with a child's mind and was told the same things I would probably respond the same way.
The adult mind racks up experience - memories and compiles a "life" that is remembered, experienced and anticipated, all based on the collective things learned to that point.
It sounds "wrong" to condemn a child that has no idea of what's wrong yet and wrong to condemn a child that when they then struggle to learn and understand. We can see that's wrong, we accept a different set of standards by which to judge - over a lifetime. Things may be done but they are handled in a certain way - and our "justice" and legal system in say, America, tries to declare and deal with that kind of thing, for better or worse. A time will come however when society will say - you knew better, you've been told, etc. Yet - and this is significant - Jesus expounded a more intimate level to understanding "sin", (which was always there in the Torah, moral commandments) that to think and want a thing can be as wrong as doing it. So one might say that "sin" is deeper rooted than simply learning, knowing and doing/not doing something.
If God is our Father and we His children there could be similarities to how God is with His creation, and why that metaphor is chosen, especially if it's less figurative and more factually true.
Anyhoo - just some thoughts I go through on this topic.
I am assuming that was meant for me. You are most welcome, socks!
newlife's question brings up so many things....and you have quite a bit to chew on there too.
We both seem to be deep thinkers, and our desire to help others is something we also have in common. As we are meek, we will learn much from each other while doing that, such as helping "newlife", for instance.
The nature of "sin" - that word, what is it, what does it actually mean? What is sin and more importantly - why is it, that thing or that state?
I'm not sure if your question was truly rhetorical, so I will answer it as best I can (but at the end, where you mentioned it once more).
I come back to this idea of relationship and "fellowship", a sharing of life.
OK.
I took it all back to some basic realities - that we are single unique instances of consciousness - I am me, I know I'm not you or someone else and for the most part I can start by stating that a healthy human instance of life will always know that and accept it, more and more as it grows in understanding that.
While I may learn over time that I'm a "part" of other things, of everything else, that has definition - I am not a part of everything or anything else to the extent that it reduces my own awareness of self. So I could say, I'm connected through relationships and processes, each one of us with each other and with everything else we are aware of.
To me this single reality is never excepted or superceded by anything else, ever, while we are alive and aware of it. If we were to lose that sense to a demonstrable degree it would demonstrate itself by our own selves becoming less aware and conscious. Our ability to measure that basic state would degrade and we'd become unaware of ourselves. We "die" which may be what that really is.
Either way - self awareness is fundamental. It seems that separation is therefore inherent and unavoidable - we can never all of us individually be "one" because of our intuitive awareness of time and memory. So if we are separate, what does it mean really to reconcile and be "at peace"?
Now, THAT was deep, for sure! And you seem to hit upon something very interesting concerning death. And your use of the word "intuitive" speaks loudly toward this as well, so I will incorporate both within my answer:
First, intuitive is defined as: a direct perception of truth or fact, independent of any reasoning process. This, of course, leans toward an awareness of things beyond our human mental and physical capabilitiy. For lack of any better term, let us agree to define that at something spiritual.
The Way used to define "soul" as something which merely ceases to exist when we die, as though it will never (ever) be seen again. However, I do not agree with that. They also said that (when we die) our "spirit" goes back to God who gave it - and that seems to make sense, for everything tends to untimately return to the source from which it came.
Eccl 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
It is most interesting that the word for "spirit" here (in the LXX, or Septuigint, does indeed relate to "soul". Check that out, it you like — it's easy to do!
Therefore, I do believe that our "souls" (whatever they truly are) will not disappear forever when we die, but are as our spirit, which is reserved for a later time - that is, after Jesus Christ returns for us at the gathering together.
This leads to something truly remarkable! It seems that (in our new, spiritual bodies) our traits and personalities will still be present, along with our "spirit". (No wonder many confuse the minute and subtle difference between soul and spirit, for they are very similar!) Yet our soul is the "mental part" of our present flesh, and the "spirit" is just that, independent of the flesh, which consists of both body and soul.
So it seems that (in our new life later on) we will still know ourselves as ourselves, just as we do now. (You know - that feeling you get when you look at yourself in the mirror, for instance, being the awareness of self you talked about.) We will still have our same former personalities and traits, and will still recognize one another - just as the apostles (and others) did when they saw Jesus Christ once again in his resurrected body.
And that's why your remarks seemed so interesting to me along this line, Socks! This idea was most evident when you said "Our ability to measure that basic state would degrade and we'd become unaware of ourselves. We "die" which may be what that really is." .
What you said tends to agree with what I believe about our souls when we die, for we would indeed not be aware of ourselves at that time. But as I also said, I don't believe it will continue that way forever.
And now - for the easy part:
Sin - how do you here define it?
I spoke of this in more detail during my former (and rather lengthy) post. So, this will a brief summary of those things.
Sin may be considered as anything which is against what God knows to be perfectly righteous - something we humans can never attain in the flesh. This would not only include the actions we take with our bodily parts, but also the motive of heart behind those actions as well. (ie: our flesh)
But (as I pointed out in my former post) such things are not considered as "punishable offenses" in God's eyes unless they are truly considered "our sins", which we are aware of because we understand the truth concerning them - and in such a case, we are instructed to bring those matters before God to avoid consequences while we are yet learning more about them. (Perhaps you may again consider what I wrote about concerning "mercy".
Spec
PS: Socks - I posted this prior to seeing that you had more to say - and I just wanted to add that your remarks concerning how we should treat children, babies and toddlers make perfect sense to me.
God wants us to stop putting our faith in ourselves, he wants us to actually come to the place where we literally have no confidence in the flesh, but have full reliance in Christ alone. The very fabric of our being must be come apart through the death and resurrection of Christ, a relationship with God, which is going to strip us of everything we are. We must come to the place of utter weakness and be stripped of all confidence in ourselves, and then we will find our true self in Jesus. Not some depressing “down-on-self” condition, but a return to God’s original pattern for man: free of obsession with self, and focused upon God. It is not normal to have high self-esteem or low self-esteem; both are a focus on self, but to leave self alone and to be absorbed with Jesus Christ, weak in ourselves, but fully reliant upon Christ in every way. This is why God allows all kinds of things into our lives, which he uses to strip us of our personal sense of worth. God is making us conformable to the death of Christ, so that in living experience, we might become conformed in his resurrection. This process is not enjoyable.
Sin, what is it - yeah, that's an open question. newlife's thread starter and all this got me to thinking - It's a thought provoking thing. I don't view "sin" either from the bible or anywhere else as I did back in the Way day. I don't think we understood anything about it, at all, other than the usual information that any reader of the bible will gather.
How accountable and responsible a child is (or let's say we allow it to be) reveals a differentiator I think, it's just a way of seeing - to measure performance against a standard understanding is required to establish any degree of accountability to be responsible to perform that standard. (If I don't know what the standard is or why it is, I can't really be held responsible to aspire to it. Or can I and do I whether I like it or not and if so - when and how?
It reveals that an action alone is not enough to establish a single standard of accountability or responsibility and impose it artificially by fiat, commandment, etc. and I think it starts to flesh out an understanding of right and wrong and "sin" contrasted to "righteousness".
If I apply that to reality it doesn't always work though - f'instance a child may not know it shouldn't crawl across the street but it might anyway and in so doing come to harm. The harm caused by say, a car hitting it isn't because of it's understanding, intentions, purposes - it's caused by being in a place where a car could hit it. So wrong and right are easier to understand. No matter who you are, and what you understand, if you're in the street a car can hit you. And more so if, etc. etc.
There's no "innocence" as we might call it, no ambiguity.
Because? Not because crawling across the street is wrong or that there's anything untoward or unreasonable or remotely "bad" about crawling across a road if you're a baby
or for that matter if you're an adult. (Chickens are on their own however and may be at risk).:biglaugh:/>/>/>
Put another way there's no morality attached to it when viewed independent. No ethical considerations.
Back to "sin" - I think - "think" - that religion tends towards viewing sin as the same kind of thing - where - God decrees "do not crawl across the street", and establishes it as wrong and bad independently of anything else, any cause or effect or understandable logic imposed that He reveals to us - it is wrong then because God says it's wrong and no other reason.
I'm not sold on that, not because of my own preference but because I don't see that 1. in the bible, ot 2. in life. YES God's ways are higher than our ways and YES we may not understand HIS decrees BUT I would expect that if God is to hold us accountable and responsible for (a thing) AND IF we are like a child who can be hurt regardless of whether we can be accountable or not - THEN....
I'm not ready to wash it all out with "God will cover it and won't let anything too bad happen to us" or such reasoning because history is RIFE, filled with examples of perfectly good and reasonable people being ravaged and ruined, regardless of even the best effort.
In fact if mankind is "in" sin out of the gate at this point - then Romans and the ideas presented on mankind (gentiles) have a moral sense that allows perception of good to the extent that they can seek, believe, learn and do the things mankind is encouraged to do and that would provide an inner urge to come to God is very important. Rather than lost and without hope, mankind is lost and without hope - and KNOWS IT, in it's heart and has a cognitive sense to respond to God's goodness. (Or we're all Calvin - ized and not jumping quite as joyously as my li'l converted guy because we don't know if we're a sheep or a goat but we have our fingers crossed which probably means we're SOL right there but we can hope, even though it won't matter either way what we do so - etc. etc. etc. ).
One other point - my overall approach to biblical stuff isn't to attempt to work from a need to harmonize or align "it" all with itself. I prefer to let it stand as best I understand it, as - is, and work to understand the whole of the parts whether they seem to make sense or not. I feel that gives a person the best shot at understanding what God might actually be trying to say, especially in areas where I am not an expert already. Which is like, most of it.
Wow, so much has been said! Let me start by addressing some of what you said, Spec. You can assume that most of what you said that I don't address, I found sweet to my soul.
Spec:
Yes, truly we have been reconciled to God. Although that is a spiritual reality, it's not as though it's been perfectly accomplished as far as our flesh is concerned. We still must endeavor to control ourselves and keep from acting foolishly (sinning intentionally) when we know better. "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid!" (Ro 6:1-2a) Therefore, Tom was spot-on with his reply!
Tom: Thanks for that.
Spec:
Although it seems an impossible task, we are expected to continue as best we know how in becoming reconciled ever closer to God in our flesh - by imitating what we do understand to be the truth. (Please be patient!) Though we are convinced we cannot completely accomplish such a feat, God does indeed reward us for our meager efforts as we display to him our heart-felt intention to be faithful - by how we conduct ourselves in this life according to what we are sure is right and true in his eyes.
Now (concerning the area of what is considered "sinful") this needs further explanation. Ultimately - despite how hard we try - we shall all continue to "blow it" in the flesh, because perfection belongs only to God himself. Yet (understanding this shortcoming of ours, due to being human) he has graciously devised a suitable provision for it within his Word!
The question is not then, "How shall we become perfectly righteous in our walk for God" because we know such a thing is utterly impossible to perform. Instead, we should judge within ourselves whether or not we are actually intending to sin! Did we really mean to do that which we knew was wrong? We must always remember that God looks upon our hearts - not upon our flesh!
Now, what if we DID do something wrong - intentionally? What should we do then? When we ask according to the truth he will forgive us every single time: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1Jn 1:9)
Does this then become our license to continue doing what we know is wrong and just get away with it, asking for and receiving a pardon for those same things over and over again on a continual basis? No way! "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." (Ga 6:7)
So then, what's the answer? The key is in how we confess our sins. At the very moment we are confessing them to him, what we are truly requesting of God is mercy. And this is a most fantastic reality! We desire for him to pardon our sin - instead of allowing us to receive consequences for our wrongful behavior. And he will indeed extend that kindness to us each and every time - just as long as our intentions are honest!
But there's a "catch" to this, so that God is not mocked. (For how can he continue wiping the slate clean when one keeps filling it up with insincere apologies? He cannot - for God is JUST.) Please be patient with me - in order to realize God's wonderful way of extending forgiveness to us when we fall short, we must simply understand what's involved concerning mercy. Then everything else will fall into perfect alignment and harmony.
Believe it or not - according to the truth - mercy is conditional! One verse alone (below) is all you need to see to understand this. (But I will go into more detail later on to make it perfectly clear how this is actually accomplished.)
Tom: No disagreement with your line, but, if I can come at mercy from a different point for a minute, Romans 12:1 ¶I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Romans 1-8 are doctrinal, 9-11 are a parenthesis, and 12 starts a practical application section. So chapter 12 may be read as immediately following chapter 8. All that stuff in chapter 8 about being spiritual minded instead of carnally minded, the ability to mortify the deeds of the body through the Spirit, intercession, being more than conquerors, & all the rest of the walk in glory is all identified in 12:1 as the mercies of God, those mercies of God by which Paul begs us to present our bodies "a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God." This speaks not only to our complete inability to do anything right proceeding with our carnal thinking processes, but also to our real ability through the Spirit to present out bodies holy. I think that's a distinction that clarifies the various thoughts of our discussion nicely, a distinction that obtains at the moment of the new birth, and pertains throughout the practical walk in holiness.
Spec:
Pr 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
This is simple: If someone has done something he knows to be wrong and doesn't approach God on the matter, it remains unforgiven because (according to 1Jn 1:9) he needs to confess it in order to be forgiven. And if he tries to hide (cover) it, the above verse indicates he shall not prosper. That method will just not work!
So he must either approach God on the matter or continue on, being convicted by his own conscience all the while knowing he is neglecting his responsibility to take care of it. And as he continues to procrastinate, his own self-condemnation becomes ever stronger against him until he finally acts by admitting it to God as he should have in the first place.
Okay now we're getting somewhere! So, what should one's attitude be when he does approach God about a problem area in his life? According to Pr 8:23b, it's not enough just to confess the sin, but he must be also be willing to forsake it as well! Then he shall have mercy. (And "shall" means absolutely.) If one approaches God in this manner, he will receive mercy every single time!)
At the very moment someone tells God he's sorry, he must also be intending in his heart not to repeat the matter. (And God knows whether or not he is truly sincere.) And if he is - then no problem! He then receives mercy - and the slate is wiped clean again, just as if it never happened at all.
So what remains? Will the man commit that same error again? Probably. But to be honest, the only way to continue receiving mercy for it is to have been tricked into doing it some other way than before, because he already knows what caused it the last time, and falling for the same old tricks over and over again doesn't fool God.
Tom:
Are we talking about the man being tricked more than once the same way, over and over again the same way, or making believe he is being tricked to trick God? I'm not being facetious; this is an intriguing area of discussion. I remember a bunch of us WC trying to pin VP down in a related discussion one night. I don't think he wanted to present us with something that was too hard for us to deal with lest we fall short & get wrapped up in condemnation, but finally, he said that if we really wanted an answer, God will always show us before we blow it. Me talking now: God DOES want us to walk in the light. What kind of God wouldn't warn us before we stepped in it? Jesus said, "Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world." Makes sense to me. Truth! I also remember - & I bring it up because I believe it, & it pertains to the discussion - that VP said that walking in the light is not hard like people think - that one can walk for days in the light. I've done that on occasion. It's not like I never had an impure thought in my head, but I didn't go with it. One time of great fellowship, the light was revealing so much darkness, but it didn't hurt: see the thought, throw it out, see the thought, throw it out. Not that I was sinning, but it was still like I was walking in a state of continuous forgiveness, & I believe the blood of Jesus Christ was cleansing me of sin the whole time.
Then there's the stumbling. I remember another time, I came across these three believers in earnest discussion back in the day. They had spent three days all screwed up trying to figure out how to get out of it & back into the walk in light. They had come to the conclusion that the only way to keep out of the soup was just not to sin anymore, so that had agreed that they wouldn't ever sin again. I almost laughed out loud. I certainly must have looked at them like they were from another planet.
Spec:
We are expected to learn from our mistakes and do better each time! Now - for the "extra" I promised concerning mercy:
Pr 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.
This verse explains the rest of the process. While we are yet learning more and more about a particular sin of ours, we will continue to receive mercy for our ignorance in that matter - for as long as it takes - while we become more and more adept in dealing with it. Going to God continually with the honest intention not to repeat a matter is what buys us time and delays any consequences for the wrong action while we are continuing to learn more about that problem area.
Did you notice in the above verse that while we are receiving mercy we are also receiving more of the truth as well? (by mercy and truth iniquity is purged) What truth, you ask? - it's the finer details, which will reveal even more to us about other things which are causing that very same problem!
Tom: Spec, I believe that truth of evil is part of the solution, but the sinner has some pure good truth that is supposed to be operative in his life, but is being taken up by darkness. He is missing that good part. He's believed a lie instead. The light will reveal the darkness, but it is the goodness of God operative in that part of his life that will make him free. Both revelations are necessary.
Spec: The rest of the verse indicates that eventually (when even a problem's most subtle causes are understood) a particular iniquity of ours will finally be purged! As we remain honest and faithful with God, there will come a time when that problem will be completely gone from our lives!
After we have finally seen our adversary's entire bag of tricks in a certain area of our life, it becomes likened to one of my favorite songs - by The Who: "We don't get fooled again!" Good! Now our enemy must findsome other problem area to entice us with, because even the devil knows that tempting us where we are no longer ignorant is just plain stupid!
Tom: I have to point out here that if you've seen your adversary's entire bag of tricks, been delivered, all nice & clean, trap door shut with the truth of God's Word that makes you free; nevertheless, your adversary is coming back. Count on it. It's what they do.
Jesus:
When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walks through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. Then he says, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he finds it empty, swept, and garnished. Then he goes, and takes with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.
Tom:
They're smart in their particular area of expertise, but limited. And often stupidly overplay their own hand. If you are living in the light of God's promises in the area in which your adversary fooled you, then he appears stupid to have come back, & he'll have no point of entree, for you will see his lie for what it is. But, if you've become lax, & reverted to old thinking & habits (THAT'S what he is checking for), then you won't see his entrance. Now whose the fool?
Just saying he'll be back. Be sober, be vigilant because your adversary...
Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth [resists] temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
As we resist the temptation to sin, we will receive a reward!
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
No wonder the devil has to try something else! If he dares to trick us with that which we have already become proficient in, he is found to be helping us earn rewards for resisting him in that category! And he surely won't be doing that, now will he?
Let's be thankful to God for always extending his mercy to us as we persist in coming to him with a sincere heart concerning a problem area in our lives which we truly desire to be rid of! Thank God for his unending patience as he continues to gently instruct us about that problem in even finer detail, gradually allowing it to fade away into oblivion - from where it can no longer bother us!
Tom: I believe that happens also, thank God. And thank you for pointing out our recompense of reward by our loving Father.
Spec:
Therefore, it's wise to take in only a little at a time and then put that into practice as best you can - until you understand it. Then eat a little more. That way, there's no limit as to how much you may eventually be handling properly.
But if you allow others to just feed you everything at once, you might just become responsible for more than you are willing to handle all of a sudden. Then, (being knowledgeable of all the new mistakes you are making) your conscience will take advantage of you for not being faithful to all of that, and it may be quite some time before you can truly get a proper handle on all you have recently become aware of.
Tom:
Reminds me of Proverbs 25:16 ¶Hast thou found honey? eat so much as is sufficient for thee, lest thou be filled therewith, and vomit it.
Spec: To me, this is likened to Adam and Eve, who dared to eat something which they heard would make them instantly knowledgeable about everything good and evil - without having any time in between to learn how to put any of it into practice. Didn't the devil suggest that (by eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) they "would be as gods, knowing all about good and evil" ?
God would rather we didn't attempt such shortcuts in life! Instead, we should simply walk along his path of righteousness one small step at a time and allow him to show us the truth according to what he knows we can handle - and then we try our best to remain upright as we move forward, and go to him when we fall short.
And when you approach others, ask them questions to learn what they are hungry for - and feed them THAT. Anything else is just being a poor host. If someone comes along and tries to feed you something "new" without asking you about it first, kindly change the subject and inform them of something you ARE interested in consuming. And if they persist on trying to shove something else down your throat - kindly excuse yourself by telling them you just aren't hungry for that at the moment. And then leave in peace.
Tom: Also reminds me of the children of Israel eating manna. They had a daily amount. Jesus is the true bread of life. Sufficient to the day is the evil thereof; everyday we get our portion of Jesus Christ to deal with it.
Sin, what is it - yeah, that's an open question. newlife's thread starter and all this got me to thinking - It's a thought provoking thing. I don't view "sin" either from the bible or anywhere else as I did back in the Way day.
Excellent points about children & responsibility. And well said.
Quick points: In Romans, it talks about sin & sins. Sins are things we do. Sin is a principle in operation in our lives. A quick read or word study in Romans with that in mind should be revealing.
There is also iniquity. It is a principle like sin, but emphasizes a skewed perspective on good & truth. There is a particular spirit of iniquity. Someone under its influence can't view even the purest act without something messed up to think or say about it. Iniquity is like that; it involves a sort of anti anything godly enjoyment.
Sorry I'm not taking more time to be more precise. It's coming on 3:30 AM - gotta sleep. Hope this makes some sense to you. Check out Romans, especially the 1st 8 chapters. Both sin and sins are spoken of and dealt with - I mean really dealt with not just in subject matter to study, but in life matters by God in Christ.
PS to Spec: finally started your book, & got a hook from it stuck into my neural net. Looking forward to getting reeled in.
I come back to this idea of relationship and "fellowship", a sharing of life.
I took it all back to some basic realities - that we are single unique instances of consciousness - I am me, I know I'm not you or someone else and for the most part I can start by stating that a healthy human instance of life will always know that and accept it, more and more as it grows in understanding that.
While I may learn over time that I'm a "part" of other things, of everything else, that has definition - I am not a part of everything or anything else to the extent that it reduces my own awareness of self. So I could say, I'm connected through relationships and processes, each one of us with each other and with everything else we are aware of.
To me this single reality is never excepted or superceded by anything else, ever, while we are alive and aware of it. If we were to lose that sense to a demonstrable degree it would demonstrate itself by our own selves becoming less aware and conscious. Our ability to measure that basic state would degrade and we'd become unaware of ourselves. We "die" which may be what that really is.
Either way - self awareness is fundamental. It seems that separation is therefore inherent and unavoidable - we can never all of us individually be "one" because of our intuitive awareness of time and memory. So if we are separate, what does it mean really to reconcile and be "at peace"?
Cogent!
I recently witnessed a brief give and take, and give back and ? between two individuals.
The gist:
Individual 1:
I'm an alcoholic, and I can only thank God that I've been separated from my wife and two daughters since my daughters were very young. I'm not drinking presently, but I'm not really sober in my thinking, emotions, and spirit. They know about my sickness, & we don't have any satisfactory relationship. One day I would like to have a satisfactory relationship, but I haven't lived with them since my eldest daughter was less than 5 years old, so I am thankful that they haven't been negatively affected by my life because I know alcohol is an enemy that is out to kill me.
Individual 2:
I have to say you're wrong if you think that your life doesn't negatively affect your children. I personally understand drinking and drugging and their consequences. People are dead. I likewise was separated from the mother of my two boys when they were 2 and 5 years old. I never talked about it in front of my children. Recently, my oldest, now an adult, came to live with me while he tried to kick heroin - which he did. He came to me because he knew that I wouldn't swallow any of his addict think. You can't run addict think on someone who has been an addict. His stay was challenging, but great. It was amazing in our many times sharing how similar our lives were. How could that be seeing I had never even mentioned my past while he was a young boy? Call it the psychology that most of a person's personality is formed by the time he or she is 5 years old. Call it genetics. Call it something spiritual like God or prayer or curses that crosses state lines & generations, but there's a connection you can't get away from. On the other hand, if you do sober up in your spirit and emotions, you can be a great positive effect on their lives even now. God has opened great doors for people along these lines.
i think that man was right. I know it goes against the grain of American individualism, & sounds like a pseudo-Eastern spiritualism to the Judeo-Christian ethic, but I believe we are connected to every thing, person, colleague, group member, friend, family member, housemate.
Socks, you said as much.
OK, now take to the One Body.
1 Corinthians 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honored, all the members rejoice with it.
We're connected, and we all affect everyone else. There's no getting away from it. Yet no one but you walks in your shoes.
I read earlier today what was supposed to be the 5 biggest regrets that people have when they die. The one of the 5 that people most regret is that they didn't express and live more openly and honestly what was in their minds and hearts. At the end, it doesn't matter in the least that you spoke and lived according to other people's expectations. So, what the heck can that possibly have to do with unity?
When God comforts me, He does so because He loves ME, individually, no doubt. But the Word says that He comforts us, so that we can comfort others with the comfort wherewith we are comforted of God. How is it that my comfort will comfort another? Because we are related. I don't have to follow a prescribed witnessing/sales technique. All I'm supposed to be doing is bearing witness to what God has & is doing in my life. It is perfect for me to speak thus only because we are all related, & it is exactly what others need to hear at that time. No regrets on my death bed. I've spoken clearly and honestly what is going on in the innermost part of my being. It's as cool as can be. Corinthians is of comfort to us today because we are all related on a larger scale, but it was of more direct significance to the Corinthians because they were more intimately related.
There are major devil spirits that are in charge of individual attack strategies on individual cities. God sends good spirits to engage them in the behalf of good. Paul addresses individual churches in individual cities because they are involved in the same spiritual milieu working around them and among them and in them. They are members in particular engaged in a great relationship enterprise.
Talk about individuality. I don't have to be conformed to this world, "children, tossed to and fro," but speaking the truth in love, as Christ effectually works in me (and you, you) may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ.
That's what it means to reconcile & be at peace. Christ is the glue of the peace. There IS unity. We (individually) just work to keep it between and among us. And so grow up into it.
I believe all this is realized WAY more in the hope - the ONE hope BTW. People will be growing crops then after all. We will be so much more real as individuals in the One Body then.
Hey all, since we're all pilgrims passing through, remember tomorrow where you're going, where you ARE today spiritually. People call it Easter. Other people call it Resurrection Sunday. I read that we are not supposed to be observers of days and of times.
Raised with him and you (this is the day the Lord has made - that's what I'm talking about - rejoice and be glad in it),
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teachmevp
Sin is not an issue with God, it is a son issue. What does one believe what Jesus accomplished for us? We are part of Christ's body, our sin debt has been settled as far as God is concerned, because he raised up Jesus from among the dead. The Way called me a unbelieving believer, I guess I was sinning by not going to twig when I was supposed to.
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Tom
Hi Newlife,
RE: "If you have unconditional salvation, then sin is a non-issue...," Sounds to me like one of these catchy, pat phrases that is designed to get you to thinking, but not necessarily because it has any sound thinking to be arrived at by all your thinking. Sin is still sin. Unconditional salvation doesn't change the nature of sin. Sin is evil. The sinner is still tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. The thief comes not but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. Serious stuff; he is out to kill you, and take away everything godly that you've already built up in this life, and also take away everything good that you could build up in this life, and be rewarded for in the next.
The one who uses his liberty in Christ as an occasion to sin might treat it as a non-issue, but that doesn't make it a non-issue. Sin still has dire consequences. It offends God, does despite to the Spirit, screws up marriages, & every relationship, screws up your life in every way. It's accurately likened to one eating his own vomit. To use liberty as an occasion to sin is a really stupid move, after which the sinner is walking in darkness - how great is that darness - he doesn't even know what he is stumbling over, but one thing many sinners know at that point is that far from being a non-issue, their sin has become an insurmountable issue, they're lives unmanageable, themselves out of control. In a moment of clarity, they might look back to see how foolish they were to think their liberty made sin a non-issue. To say unconditional salvation makes sin a non-issue is to adopt the attitude of the foolish sinner at his most naive point, and make a doctrine out of it.
Rather say that salvation with conditions is like love with strings. We have not been freely given; we cannot freely give. The love with which we are supposed to serve one another takes on a great propensity to selfishness. The fruit of the Spirit against which there was no law now suddenly has laws that can stop it. The Spirit by which we crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts now finds us trying of ourselves to stay in salvation instead of as Jude 1:21 says, "Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Have my beliefs concerning salvation changed concerning salvation changed since I left TWI. YES! We were taught that God moved in Christ; now it is our move was error % opened the door for all manner of sin. God is ALWAYS 1st in the Spirit. Remember God said that all these spiritual matters were operated by God. 1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. Triple reflective pointing to God energizes, divides, & distributes. But it was changed to a car battery that we operated, not God, & we operated it at our own will. That fleshly weak will just let us back into eating our own vomit again, being desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another
Since the coming of Jesus Christ with the Comforter, we're supposed to love each other like Jesus loved us. He spoke the Word to us & said the Father was doing the works in him that were the words he spoke, & that's how he kept the Adversary out of our lives. He saw the Father work & he worked - that close. We are supposed to one with Jesus & GOd the way Jesus was one with God. We're supposed to see Jesus, the head over all things to the church working - and we work - that close. And every input energized by Christ & spoken by us comes from glory and keeps the Adversary away from our family. We ride that glory trail led by the glorified one, giving us input from the place where he is - looking for the mercy of the Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. That's what my understanding of salvation has evolved into. And nothing shall separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus. Jesus made sin a non-issue. Walking as he walked keeps it that way practically - nothing less or other works. That's salvation; salvation trumps everything.
Galatians 6:18 Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.
Tom
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newlife
Tom.....THANK-YOU so much for your post. You have no idea how much I appreciate what you wrote. You know, in reading your post. I realized I am still very easily influenced by teachings by people. Maybe as much as I was when I first ran into TWI which is an eye-opener to me. If you want to add anything else, I'd especially like to read other comments you may have.
Thanks Tom....
Newlife
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Steve Lortz
You certainly hit the nail on the head, Tom!
Love,
Steve
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Human without the bean
GREAT POST Tom.
Looking forward to the second coming of Christ!
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teachmevp
Reconciliation is an accomplished fact. It is entirely outside of yourself, and it is simply to be received. There is a new view of living, no longer for self, but for God; to die to self and live to Christ.
God has taken the initiative to reconcile man back to himself. God is not reconciled to man, as though God were partly to blame for the enmity. Rather, man is reconciled to God, for it is man who moved away from God. When people need to be reconciled to one another, it normally involves a situation where fault lies on both sides to some degree. Not so with the case between man and God, man has moved away from God, and it is man who needs to be reconciled back to God, not God back to man.
The basic idea of reconciling is to change or make otherwise. This is the reverse of Hellenistic religion, where it is the human being that seeks restoration of the gods’ favor, and also of Judaism, where confession of sin and repentance are the means by which reconciliation with God is sought. It is not that we must reconcile ourselves to God. Rather, we are to be reconciled, that is, to accept what God has already achieved.
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newlife
Thanks Teachme....reconciliation is a wonderful, wonderful reality in a believer's life. Thanks for your comments about it. Good to be reminded of that...that at one time I wasn't reconciled to God....but Thanks be to God I am today.
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spectrum49
Yes, truly we have been reconciled to God. Although that is a spiritual reality, it's not as though it's been perfectly accomplished as far as our flesh is concerned. We still must endeavor to control ourselves and keep from acting foolishly (sinning intentionally) when we know better. "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid!" (Ro 6:1-2a) Therefore, Tom was spot-on with his reply!
Although it seems an impossible task, we are expected to continue as best we know how in becoming reconciled ever closer to God in our flesh - by imitating what we do understand to be the truth. (Please be patient!) Though we are convinced we cannot completely accomplish such a feat, God does indeed reward us for our meager efforts as we display to him our heart-felt intention to be faithful - by how we conduct ourselves in this life according to what we are sure is right and true in his eyes.
Now (concerning the area of what is considered "sinful") this needs further explanation. Ultimately - despite how hard we try - we shall all continue to "blow it" in the flesh, because perfection belongs only to God himself. Yet (understanding this shortcoming of ours, due to being human) he has graciously devised a suitable provision for it within his Word!
The question is not then, "How shall we become perfectly righteous in our walk for God" because we know such a thing is utterly impossible to perform. Instead, we should judge within ourselves whether or not we are actually intending to sin! Did we really mean to do that which we knew was wrong? We must always remember that God looks upon our hearts - not upon our flesh!
Now, what if we DID do something wrong - intentionally? What should we do then? When we ask according to the truth he will forgive us every single time: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1Jn 1:9)
Does this then become our license to continue doing what we know is wrong and just get away with it, asking for and receiving a pardon for those same things over and over again on a continual basis? No way! "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." (Ga 6:7)
So then, what's the answer? The key is in how we confess our sins. At the very moment we are confessing them to him, what we are truly requesting of God is mercy. And this is a most fantastic reality! We desire for him to pardon our sin - instead of allowing us to receive consequences for our wrongful behavior. And he will indeed extend that kindness to us each and every time - just as long as our intentions are honest!
But there's a "catch" to this, so that God is not mocked. (For how can he continue wiping the slate clean when one keeps filling it up with insincere apologies? He cannot - for God is JUST.) Please be patient with me - in order to realize God's wonderful way of extending forgiveness to us when we fall short, we must simply understand what's involved concerning mercy. Then everything else will fall into perfect alignment and harmony.
Believe it or not - according to the truth - mercy is conditional! One verse alone (below) is all you need to see to understand this. (But I will go into more detail later on to make it perfectly clear how this is actually accomplished.)
Pr 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
This is simple: If someone has done something he knows to be wrong and doesn't approach God on the matter, it remains unforgiven because (according to 1Jn 1:9) he needs to confess it in order to be forgiven. And if he tries to hide (cover) it, the above verse indicates he shall not prosper. That method will just not work!
So he must either approach God on the matter or continue on, being convicted by his own conscience all the while knowing he is neglecting his responsibility to take care of it. And as he continues to procrastinate, his own self-condemnation becomes ever stronger against him until he finally acts by admitting it to God as he should have in the first place.
Okay now we're getting somewhere! So, what should one's attitude be when he does approach God about a problem area in his life? According to Pr 8:23b, it's not enough just to confess the sin, but he must be also be willing to forsake it as well! Then he shall have mercy. (And "shall" means absolutely.) If one approaches God in this manner, he will receive mercy every single time!)
At the very moment someone tells God he's sorry, he must also be intending in his heart not to repeat the matter. (And God knows whether or not he is truly sincere.) And if he is - then no problem! He then receives mercy - and the slate is wiped clean again, just as if it never happened at all.
So what remains? Will the man commit that same error again? Probably. But to be honest, the only way to continue receiving mercy for it is to have been tricked into doing it some other way than before, because he already knows what caused it the last time, and falling for the same old tricks over and over again doesn't fool God. We are expected to learn from our mistakes and do better each time! Now - for the "extra" I promised concerning mercy:
Pr 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.
This verse explains the rest of the process. While we are yet learning more and more about a particular sin of ours, we will continue to receive mercy for our ignorance in that matter - for as long as it takes - while we become more and more adept in dealing with it. Going to God continually with the honest intention not to repeat a matter is what buys us time and delays any consequences for the wrong action while we are continuing to learn more about that problem area.
Did you notice in the above verse that while we are receiving mercy we are also receiving more of the truth as well? (by mercy and truth iniquity is purged) What truth, you ask? - it's the finer details, which will reveal even more to us about other things which are causing that very same problem!
The rest of the verse indicates that eventually (when even a problem's most subtle causes are understood) a particular iniquity of ours will finally be purged! As we remain honest and faithful with God, there will come a time when that problem will be completely gone from our lives!
After we have finally seen our adversary's entire bag of tricks in a certain area of our life, it becomes likened to one of my favorite songs - by The Who: "We don't get fooled again!" Good! Now our enemy must find some other problem area to entice us with, because even the devil knows that tempting us where we are no longer ignorant is just plain stupid!
Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth [resists] temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
As we resist the temptation to sin, we will receive a reward!
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
No wonder the devil has to try something else! If he dares to trick us with that which we have already become proficient in, he is found to be helping us earn rewards for resisting him in that category! And he surely won't be doing that, now will he?
Let's be thankful to God for always extending his mercy to us as we persist in coming to him with a sincere heart concerning a problem area in our lives which we truly desire to be rid of! Thank God for his unending patience as he continues to gently instruct us about that problem in even finer detail, gradually allowing it to fade away into oblivion - from where it can no longer bother us!
And then we can just look back on it and laugh at how stupid we were while we kept on doing it - because now we're fully aware of how to avoid it!
That sounds like it should be the end. (But wait! There's more!)
On the other hand, what if we didn't intend to commit that sin in the first place? We only did it because we didn't know any better. Is God going to make sure we "reap what we sow" and allow us to be punished for it anyway? Would you test first graders on calculus when all they understand about math so far is how to add and subtract - and then flunk them all?
Well - neither would God punish you for something you were doing wrong, knowing that you haven't even learned about it yet! Remember 1Jn 1:9 - If we confess our sins - (???) Just how can we tell God we're sorry for doing something when we don't even know it's wrong in the first place? Well, what happens to us in that case? Nothing! He simply overlooks it. You are not responsible to God for what you aren't aware of yet!
We are only responsible to approach God for forgiveness when we know we have a problem. This is a very important lesson which needs to be understood! Carefully consider - as never before - the following verses concerning our fellowship with God:
1Jn 1:
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
As I said before, God is the only one who is perfect - and he knows that (in the flesh) we cannot be!
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
Yes! As I said before, we know that we can't go to God and fool him with insincere confessions - nor can we just ignore our problems and expect them to just go away on their own! We know when we're lying, and we know when we're trying to hide our sins from God. (And so does he!)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
We are only expected to conduct ourselves as we know best, walking in the light that we understand thus far. And what results? We have fellowship with God, his son Jesus Christ, and (hopefully) with our spiritual brothers and sisters as well - just as long as they aren't judging us according to what they know is right!
Furthermore, it says here that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin !!! That's all the stuff we still don't know about yet. As far as God is concerned, it's as though you are walking in absolute perfection - even though (being perfect himself) he knows better. And so should we! Reading on...
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
So - while we're enjoying this wonderful fellowship with God and everyone else, are we committing sins? Heck yeah! All the damn time! Why? Because we aren't perfect. But is that our sin? Is there something we should confess to God about? Not at all! As far as we know, all is well - and there's nothing we need to be ashamed about because we're doing all we know concerning what is right.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
And when we do "blow it" we go to God and simply tell him we're sorry, with the intention not to do it again. And what results? It's just as before - as far as God is concerned, we have done nothing unrighteous whatsoever!
Well, what about that? Have we really been doing anything which is considered unrighteous in God's understanding? Heck yeah! That's what we do all the time - because we humans aren't perfect - and we can't be perfect, despite how hard we try. (Do we remember verse 8?)
But - are we responsible to do anything about that imperfection of ours at the moment? No! We've just been forgiven, and (as far as God is concerned) it's just as if we hadn't even sinned at all! Accepting what God says is true concerning us, our conscience should now be clear. And we just move on with our lives, and enjoy his fellowship.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
The above verse is yet one more reminder that we truly are making mistakes all of the time, even though we aren't aware of just what they are. Being human, that's our very nature. We aren't perfect, nor even at our best are we even close! The truth be told, even that which we think we are doing right is so damn far from perfection that it's truly laughable!
1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
Whatever man does that he thinks is smart, or right, or true, or just, or righteous, or wise, etc, is sheer folly in God's eyes! It seems marvelous to me that God has yet chosen to reward us for anything we have done whatsoever!
So, we should be ever thankful for (and appreciative of) his mercy and grace, and for his patience and longsuffering on our behalf, understanding we are still considered privileged enough to be rewarded, despite the meager appearance of our best efforts - which, in reality, are next to nothing when compared to what is perfectly righteous.
What a loving God we have, who will not judge us according to our true ignorance, for in that case we would never deserve any rewards whatsoever!
So, the key in life is merely to continue doing what you have learned is right, and enjoy God's willingness to treat you as though you were just as perfect as he is, even though you know better.
And what about others who know more of the truth than you? Should you allow them to continually come at you, offering "reproof and correction" for the many things they seem to understand that you aren't doing correctly? Be very careful of this trap!
After you allow them to show your mistakes, many of these sort will not only expect you to admit to them just how sorry you are for having done such things, but will also suggest you go to God and ask his forgiveness as well for having done that which offended them - when you didn't even know you had those problems until they first brought them up! Those are not teachers, but judges! It's usually best to avoid such situations.
Should you still attend classes on Biblical truth? Yes. Should you ask questions of others to learn more about truth and error? Yes. Should you study and learn for yourself what God likes and what he doesn't so you can walk more precisely for him? Definitely! Just be careful not to ingest more at one time than you can be faithful to - and you'll be just fine.
Pr 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
Therefore, it's wise to take in only a little at a time and then put that into practice as best you can - until you understand it. Then eat a little more. That way, there's no limit as to how much you may eventually be handling properly.
But if you allow others to just feed you everything at once, you might just become responsible for more than you are willing to handle all of a sudden. Then, (being knowledgeable of all the new mistakes you are making) your conscience will take advantage of you for not being faithful to all of that, and it may be quite some time before you can truly get a proper handle on all you have recently become aware of.
To me, this is likened to Adam and Eve, who dared to eat something which they heard would make them instantly knowledgeable about everything good and evil - without having any time in between to learn how to put any of it into practice. Didn't the devil suggest that (by eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) they "would be as gods, knowing all about good and evil" ?
God would rather we didn't attempt such shortcuts in life! Instead, we should simply walk along his path of righteousness one small step at a time and allow him to show us the truth according to what he knows we can handle - and then we try our best to remain upright as we move forward, and go to him when we fall short.
And when you approach others, ask them questions to learn what they are hungry for - and feed them THAT. Anything else is just being a poor host. If someone comes along and tries to feed you something "new" without asking you about it first, kindly change the subject and inform them of something you ARE interested in consuming. And if they persist on trying to shove something else down your throat - kindly excuse yourself by telling them you just aren't hungry for that at the moment. And then leave in peace.
Spec
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socks
newlife, mine has changed but not on that point (salvation conditional on behavior, actions, "sin"). Overall I sense from the Bible that God is more interested in "saving" than not, more pro relationship and sharing than he isn't, more inclined towards grace and mercy than condemnation. The goodness of God leads to repentance....I recognize a shift from what I read in the O.T. histories and the God that Jesus preached - a complete view of God as merciful and gracious, loving and forgiving.....In the O.T. they killed, drove out, conquered and the same was returned to Israel for "sin". Christ's message picks up from that and speaks of forgiving as God forgives, as seeing God as His Father, as loving those who would be your enemy. His teachings synthesize what I read in the O.T. to a character profile that - IMO - in fact suspends judgment and imposes it on Christ, in whom we can then be reconciled through .
I understand salvation to be conditional on acceptance of Christ and that requiring a clear recognition of our own need for reconciliation to God. An act of faith that then opens up the relationship and clarity into it.
i would compare our relative understandings somewhat like a person who lives with someone and doesn't know who they really are. Eric Clapton comes to mind - his "sister" was really his Mother but he didn't know it. His mother was 16 when she gave birth to Eric and due to a whole range of circumstances thought it best if her parents could raise him and so - his parents were really his grandparents and who he was told was his "sister" was really his mother, Patricia Clapton..
In a situation like that the relationship is what it really is - and the people involved do know and relate to each other in a completely normal and natural way but not for who they really are to each other.
We can "know" God, "see" him and have understandings of Him that range from not believing He exists at all to believing He is now a "Father" to us.
Coming to a knowledge of the truth sets us free - knowing who, what, where, when and why - in that then we don't need to filter or anthro-morph it into something we can grasp but know it for what it really is. I don't think it's expected we will do that completely in this segment of life but we can continue to look, learn and understand.
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spectrum49
Interestingly, the Greek word for "goodness" in Ro 2:4 is chrestos, which has also been translated gentle, kind and easy. You seem to have that way about you, and I'm sure that's a blessing to many you speak to.
Spec
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socks
Thank you!
newlife's question brings up so many things....and you have quite a bit to chew on there too.
The nature of "sin" - that word, what is it, what does it actually mean? What is sin and more importantly - why is it, that thing or that state?
I come back to this idea of relationship and "fellowship", a sharing of life.
I took it all back to some basic realities - that we are single unique instances of consciousness - I am me, I know I'm not you or someone else and for the most part I can start by stating that a healthy human instance of life will always know that and accept it, more and more as it grows in understanding that.
While I may learn over time that I'm a "part" of other things, of everything else, that has definition - I am not a part of everything or anything else to the extent that it reduces my own awareness of self. So I could say, I'm connected through relationships and processes, each one of us with each other and with everything else we are aware of.
To me this single reality is never excepted or superceded by anything else, ever, while we are alive and aware of it. If we were to lose that sense to a demonstrable degree it would demonstrate itself by our own selves becoming less aware and conscious. Our ability to measure that basic state would degrade and we'd become unaware of ourselves. We "die" which may be what that really is.
Either way - self awareness is fundamental. It seems that separation is therefore inherent and unavoidable - we can never all of us individually be "one" because of our intuitive awareness of time and memory. So if we are separate, what does it mean really to reconcile and be "at peace"?
Sin - how do you here define it?
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socks
Wanted to add - a child would be surprised that they are in "sin" and disconnected or not aligned w/God and that there is a level of dissatisfaction in the relationship. I think this says something about what "sin" is, and to spec's points.
A two year old simply would not know that - and we know about the "terrible two's"....
A baby doesn't do anything yet. And a toddler is learning. A 3 year old will do something "bad" or wrong and not be treated like an adult who might do the same thing. Reasons are pretty obvious.
I suppose if I were to ask a child with an adult mind if they knew they were in "sin" and separated from their Creator, they might be surprised. Really? How'd that happen? Oh - hmmm. Okay. How can we fix that then, I had no idea....
If I were an adult with a child's mind and was told the same things I would probably respond the same way.
The adult mind racks up experience - memories and compiles a "life" that is remembered, experienced and anticipated, all based on the collective things learned to that point.
It sounds "wrong" to condemn a child that has no idea of what's wrong yet and wrong to condemn a child that when they then struggle to learn and understand. We can see that's wrong, we accept a different set of standards by which to judge - over a lifetime. Things may be done but they are handled in a certain way - and our "justice" and legal system in say, America, tries to declare and deal with that kind of thing, for better or worse. A time will come however when society will say - you knew better, you've been told, etc. Yet - and this is significant - Jesus expounded a more intimate level to understanding "sin", (which was always there in the Torah, moral commandments) that to think and want a thing can be as wrong as doing it. So one might say that "sin" is deeper rooted than simply learning, knowing and doing/not doing something.
If God is our Father and we His children there could be similarities to how God is with His creation, and why that metaphor is chosen, especially if it's less figurative and more factually true.
Anyhoo - just some thoughts I go through on this topic.
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spectrum49
Spec
PS: Socks - I posted this prior to seeing that you had more to say - and I just wanted to add that your remarks concerning how we should treat children, babies and toddlers make perfect sense to me.
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teachmevp
God wants us to stop putting our faith in ourselves, he wants us to actually come to the place where we literally have no confidence in the flesh, but have full reliance in Christ alone. The very fabric of our being must be come apart through the death and resurrection of Christ, a relationship with God, which is going to strip us of everything we are. We must come to the place of utter weakness and be stripped of all confidence in ourselves, and then we will find our true self in Jesus. Not some depressing “down-on-self” condition, but a return to God’s original pattern for man: free of obsession with self, and focused upon God. It is not normal to have high self-esteem or low self-esteem; both are a focus on self, but to leave self alone and to be absorbed with Jesus Christ, weak in ourselves, but fully reliant upon Christ in every way. This is why God allows all kinds of things into our lives, which he uses to strip us of our personal sense of worth. God is making us conformable to the death of Christ, so that in living experience, we might become conformed in his resurrection. This process is not enjoyable.
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socks
Sin, what is it - yeah, that's an open question. newlife's thread starter and all this got me to thinking - It's a thought provoking thing. I don't view "sin" either from the bible or anywhere else as I did back in the Way day. I don't think we understood anything about it, at all, other than the usual information that any reader of the bible will gather.
How accountable and responsible a child is (or let's say we allow it to be) reveals a differentiator I think, it's just a way of seeing - to measure performance against a standard understanding is required to establish any degree of accountability to be responsible to perform that standard. (If I don't know what the standard is or why it is, I can't really be held responsible to aspire to it. Or can I and do I whether I like it or not and if so - when and how?
It reveals that an action alone is not enough to establish a single standard of accountability or responsibility and impose it artificially by fiat, commandment, etc. and I think it starts to flesh out an understanding of right and wrong and "sin" contrasted to "righteousness".
If I apply that to reality it doesn't always work though - f'instance a child may not know it shouldn't crawl across the street but it might anyway and in so doing come to harm. The harm caused by say, a car hitting it isn't because of it's understanding, intentions, purposes - it's caused by being in a place where a car could hit it. So wrong and right are easier to understand. No matter who you are, and what you understand, if you're in the street a car can hit you. And more so if, etc. etc.
There's no "innocence" as we might call it, no ambiguity.
Because? Not because crawling across the street is wrong or that there's anything untoward or unreasonable or remotely "bad" about crawling across a road if you're a baby
or for that matter if you're an adult. (Chickens are on their own however and may be at risk).:biglaugh:/>/>/>
Put another way there's no morality attached to it when viewed independent. No ethical considerations.
Back to "sin" - I think - "think" - that religion tends towards viewing sin as the same kind of thing - where - God decrees "do not crawl across the street", and establishes it as wrong and bad independently of anything else, any cause or effect or understandable logic imposed that He reveals to us - it is wrong then because God says it's wrong and no other reason.
I'm not sold on that, not because of my own preference but because I don't see that 1. in the bible, ot 2. in life. YES God's ways are higher than our ways and YES we may not understand HIS decrees BUT I would expect that if God is to hold us accountable and responsible for (a thing) AND IF we are like a child who can be hurt regardless of whether we can be accountable or not - THEN....
I'm not ready to wash it all out with "God will cover it and won't let anything too bad happen to us" or such reasoning because history is RIFE, filled with examples of perfectly good and reasonable people being ravaged and ruined, regardless of even the best effort.
In fact if mankind is "in" sin out of the gate at this point - then Romans and the ideas presented on mankind (gentiles) have a moral sense that allows perception of good to the extent that they can seek, believe, learn and do the things mankind is encouraged to do and that would provide an inner urge to come to God is very important. Rather than lost and without hope, mankind is lost and without hope - and KNOWS IT, in it's heart and has a cognitive sense to respond to God's goodness. (Or we're all Calvin - ized and not jumping quite as joyously as my li'l converted guy because we don't know if we're a sheep or a goat but we have our fingers crossed which probably means we're SOL right there but we can hope, even though it won't matter either way what we do so - etc. etc. etc. ).
One other point - my overall approach to biblical stuff isn't to attempt to work from a need to harmonize or align "it" all with itself. I prefer to let it stand as best I understand it, as - is, and work to understand the whole of the parts whether they seem to make sense or not. I feel that gives a person the best shot at understanding what God might actually be trying to say, especially in areas where I am not an expert already. Which is like, most of it.
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Tom
Wow, so much has been said! Let me start by addressing some of what you said, Spec. You can assume that most of what you said that I don't address, I found sweet to my soul.
Spec:
Yes, truly we have been reconciled to God. Although that is a spiritual reality, it's not as though it's been perfectly accomplished as far as our flesh is concerned. We still must endeavor to control ourselves and keep from acting foolishly (sinning intentionally) when we know better. "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid!" (Ro 6:1-2a) Therefore, Tom was spot-on with his reply!
Tom: Thanks for that.
Spec:
Although it seems an impossible task, we are expected to continue as best we know how in becoming reconciled ever closer to God in our flesh - by imitating what we do understand to be the truth. (Please be patient!) Though we are convinced we cannot completely accomplish such a feat, God does indeed reward us for our meager efforts as we display to him our heart-felt intention to be faithful - by how we conduct ourselves in this life according to what we are sure is right and true in his eyes.
Now (concerning the area of what is considered "sinful") this needs further explanation. Ultimately - despite how hard we try - we shall all continue to "blow it" in the flesh, because perfection belongs only to God himself. Yet (understanding this shortcoming of ours, due to being human) he has graciously devised a suitable provision for it within his Word!
The question is not then, "How shall we become perfectly righteous in our walk for God" because we know such a thing is utterly impossible to perform. Instead, we should judge within ourselves whether or not we are actually intending to sin! Did we really mean to do that which we knew was wrong? We must always remember that God looks upon our hearts - not upon our flesh!
Now, what if we DID do something wrong - intentionally? What should we do then? When we ask according to the truth he will forgive us every single time: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1Jn 1:9)
Does this then become our license to continue doing what we know is wrong and just get away with it, asking for and receiving a pardon for those same things over and over again on a continual basis? No way! "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." (Ga 6:7)
So then, what's the answer? The key is in how we confess our sins. At the very moment we are confessing them to him, what we are truly requesting of God is mercy. And this is a most fantastic reality! We desire for him to pardon our sin - instead of allowing us to receive consequences for our wrongful behavior. And he will indeed extend that kindness to us each and every time - just as long as our intentions are honest!
But there's a "catch" to this, so that God is not mocked. (For how can he continue wiping the slate clean when one keeps filling it up with insincere apologies? He cannot - for God is JUST.) Please be patient with me - in order to realize God's wonderful way of extending forgiveness to us when we fall short, we must simply understand what's involved concerning mercy. Then everything else will fall into perfect alignment and harmony.
Believe it or not - according to the truth - mercy is conditional! One verse alone (below) is all you need to see to understand this. (But I will go into more detail later on to make it perfectly clear how this is actually accomplished.)
Tom: No disagreement with your line, but, if I can come at mercy from a different point for a minute, Romans 12:1 ¶I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Romans 1-8 are doctrinal, 9-11 are a parenthesis, and 12 starts a practical application section. So chapter 12 may be read as immediately following chapter 8. All that stuff in chapter 8 about being spiritual minded instead of carnally minded, the ability to mortify the deeds of the body through the Spirit, intercession, being more than conquerors, & all the rest of the walk in glory is all identified in 12:1 as the mercies of God, those mercies of God by which Paul begs us to present our bodies "a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God." This speaks not only to our complete inability to do anything right proceeding with our carnal thinking processes, but also to our real ability through the Spirit to present out bodies holy. I think that's a distinction that clarifies the various thoughts of our discussion nicely, a distinction that obtains at the moment of the new birth, and pertains throughout the practical walk in holiness.
Spec:
Pr 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
This is simple: If someone has done something he knows to be wrong and doesn't approach God on the matter, it remains unforgiven because (according to 1Jn 1:9) he needs to confess it in order to be forgiven. And if he tries to hide (cover) it, the above verse indicates he shall not prosper. That method will just not work!
So he must either approach God on the matter or continue on, being convicted by his own conscience all the while knowing he is neglecting his responsibility to take care of it. And as he continues to procrastinate, his own self-condemnation becomes ever stronger against him until he finally acts by admitting it to God as he should have in the first place.
Okay now we're getting somewhere! So, what should one's attitude be when he does approach God about a problem area in his life? According to Pr 8:23b, it's not enough just to confess the sin, but he must be also be willing to forsake it as well! Then he shall have mercy. (And "shall" means absolutely.) If one approaches God in this manner, he will receive mercy every single time!)
At the very moment someone tells God he's sorry, he must also be intending in his heart not to repeat the matter. (And God knows whether or not he is truly sincere.) And if he is - then no problem! He then receives mercy - and the slate is wiped clean again, just as if it never happened at all.
So what remains? Will the man commit that same error again? Probably. But to be honest, the only way to continue receiving mercy for it is to have been tricked into doing it some other way than before, because he already knows what caused it the last time, and falling for the same old tricks over and over again doesn't fool God.
Tom:
Are we talking about the man being tricked more than once the same way, over and over again the same way, or making believe he is being tricked to trick God? I'm not being facetious; this is an intriguing area of discussion. I remember a bunch of us WC trying to pin VP down in a related discussion one night. I don't think he wanted to present us with something that was too hard for us to deal with lest we fall short & get wrapped up in condemnation, but finally, he said that if we really wanted an answer, God will always show us before we blow it. Me talking now: God DOES want us to walk in the light. What kind of God wouldn't warn us before we stepped in it? Jesus said, "Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world." Makes sense to me. Truth! I also remember - & I bring it up because I believe it, & it pertains to the discussion - that VP said that walking in the light is not hard like people think - that one can walk for days in the light. I've done that on occasion. It's not like I never had an impure thought in my head, but I didn't go with it. One time of great fellowship, the light was revealing so much darkness, but it didn't hurt: see the thought, throw it out, see the thought, throw it out. Not that I was sinning, but it was still like I was walking in a state of continuous forgiveness, & I believe the blood of Jesus Christ was cleansing me of sin the whole time.
Then there's the stumbling. I remember another time, I came across these three believers in earnest discussion back in the day. They had spent three days all screwed up trying to figure out how to get out of it & back into the walk in light. They had come to the conclusion that the only way to keep out of the soup was just not to sin anymore, so that had agreed that they wouldn't ever sin again. I almost laughed out loud. I certainly must have looked at them like they were from another planet.
Spec:
We are expected to learn from our mistakes and do better each time! Now - for the "extra" I promised concerning mercy:
Pr 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.
This verse explains the rest of the process. While we are yet learning more and more about a particular sin of ours, we will continue to receive mercy for our ignorance in that matter - for as long as it takes - while we become more and more adept in dealing with it. Going to God continually with the honest intention not to repeat a matter is what buys us time and delays any consequences for the wrong action while we are continuing to learn more about that problem area.
Did you notice in the above verse that while we are receiving mercy we are also receiving more of the truth as well? (by mercy and truth iniquity is purged) What truth, you ask? - it's the finer details, which will reveal even more to us about other things which are causing that very same problem!
Tom: Spec, I believe that truth of evil is part of the solution, but the sinner has some pure good truth that is supposed to be operative in his life, but is being taken up by darkness. He is missing that good part. He's believed a lie instead. The light will reveal the darkness, but it is the goodness of God operative in that part of his life that will make him free. Both revelations are necessary.
Spec: The rest of the verse indicates that eventually (when even a problem's most subtle causes are understood) a particular iniquity of ours will finally be purged! As we remain honest and faithful with God, there will come a time when that problem will be completely gone from our lives!
After we have finally seen our adversary's entire bag of tricks in a certain area of our life, it becomes likened to one of my favorite songs - by The Who: "We don't get fooled again!" Good! Now our enemy must findsome other problem area to entice us with, because even the devil knows that tempting us where we are no longer ignorant is just plain stupid!
Tom: I have to point out here that if you've seen your adversary's entire bag of tricks, been delivered, all nice & clean, trap door shut with the truth of God's Word that makes you free; nevertheless, your adversary is coming back. Count on it. It's what they do.
Jesus:
When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walks through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. Then he says, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he finds it empty, swept, and garnished. Then he goes, and takes with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.
Tom:
They're smart in their particular area of expertise, but limited. And often stupidly overplay their own hand. If you are living in the light of God's promises in the area in which your adversary fooled you, then he appears stupid to have come back, & he'll have no point of entree, for you will see his lie for what it is. But, if you've become lax, & reverted to old thinking & habits (THAT'S what he is checking for), then you won't see his entrance. Now whose the fool?
Just saying he'll be back. Be sober, be vigilant because your adversary...
Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth [resists] temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
As we resist the temptation to sin, we will receive a reward!
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
No wonder the devil has to try something else! If he dares to trick us with that which we have already become proficient in, he is found to be helping us earn rewards for resisting him in that category! And he surely won't be doing that, now will he?
Let's be thankful to God for always extending his mercy to us as we persist in coming to him with a sincere heart concerning a problem area in our lives which we truly desire to be rid of! Thank God for his unending patience as he continues to gently instruct us about that problem in even finer detail, gradually allowing it to fade away into oblivion - from where it can no longer bother us!
Tom: I believe that happens also, thank God. And thank you for pointing out our recompense of reward by our loving Father.
Spec:
Therefore, it's wise to take in only a little at a time and then put that into practice as best you can - until you understand it. Then eat a little more. That way, there's no limit as to how much you may eventually be handling properly.
But if you allow others to just feed you everything at once, you might just become responsible for more than you are willing to handle all of a sudden. Then, (being knowledgeable of all the new mistakes you are making) your conscience will take advantage of you for not being faithful to all of that, and it may be quite some time before you can truly get a proper handle on all you have recently become aware of.
Tom:
Reminds me of Proverbs 25:16 ¶Hast thou found honey? eat so much as is sufficient for thee, lest thou be filled therewith, and vomit it.
Spec: To me, this is likened to Adam and Eve, who dared to eat something which they heard would make them instantly knowledgeable about everything good and evil - without having any time in between to learn how to put any of it into practice. Didn't the devil suggest that (by eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) they "would be as gods, knowing all about good and evil" ?
God would rather we didn't attempt such shortcuts in life! Instead, we should simply walk along his path of righteousness one small step at a time and allow him to show us the truth according to what he knows we can handle - and then we try our best to remain upright as we move forward, and go to him when we fall short.
And when you approach others, ask them questions to learn what they are hungry for - and feed them THAT. Anything else is just being a poor host. If someone comes along and tries to feed you something "new" without asking you about it first, kindly change the subject and inform them of something you ARE interested in consuming. And if they persist on trying to shove something else down your throat - kindly excuse yourself by telling them you just aren't hungry for that at the moment. And then leave in peace.
Tom: Also reminds me of the children of Israel eating manna. They had a daily amount. Jesus is the true bread of life. Sufficient to the day is the evil thereof; everyday we get our portion of Jesus Christ to deal with it.
Excellent points, Spec - thanks.
Tom
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Tom
Excellent points about children & responsibility. And well said.
Quick points: In Romans, it talks about sin & sins. Sins are things we do. Sin is a principle in operation in our lives. A quick read or word study in Romans with that in mind should be revealing.
There is also iniquity. It is a principle like sin, but emphasizes a skewed perspective on good & truth. There is a particular spirit of iniquity. Someone under its influence can't view even the purest act without something messed up to think or say about it. Iniquity is like that; it involves a sort of anti anything godly enjoyment.
Sorry I'm not taking more time to be more precise. It's coming on 3:30 AM - gotta sleep. Hope this makes some sense to you. Check out Romans, especially the 1st 8 chapters. Both sin and sins are spoken of and dealt with - I mean really dealt with not just in subject matter to study, but in life matters by God in Christ.
PS to Spec: finally started your book, & got a hook from it stuck into my neural net. Looking forward to getting reeled in.
God bless all,
Tom
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Tom
Cogent!
I recently witnessed a brief give and take, and give back and ? between two individuals.
The gist:
Individual 1:
I'm an alcoholic, and I can only thank God that I've been separated from my wife and two daughters since my daughters were very young. I'm not drinking presently, but I'm not really sober in my thinking, emotions, and spirit. They know about my sickness, & we don't have any satisfactory relationship. One day I would like to have a satisfactory relationship, but I haven't lived with them since my eldest daughter was less than 5 years old, so I am thankful that they haven't been negatively affected by my life because I know alcohol is an enemy that is out to kill me.
Individual 2:
I have to say you're wrong if you think that your life doesn't negatively affect your children. I personally understand drinking and drugging and their consequences. People are dead. I likewise was separated from the mother of my two boys when they were 2 and 5 years old. I never talked about it in front of my children. Recently, my oldest, now an adult, came to live with me while he tried to kick heroin - which he did. He came to me because he knew that I wouldn't swallow any of his addict think. You can't run addict think on someone who has been an addict. His stay was challenging, but great. It was amazing in our many times sharing how similar our lives were. How could that be seeing I had never even mentioned my past while he was a young boy? Call it the psychology that most of a person's personality is formed by the time he or she is 5 years old. Call it genetics. Call it something spiritual like God or prayer or curses that crosses state lines & generations, but there's a connection you can't get away from. On the other hand, if you do sober up in your spirit and emotions, you can be a great positive effect on their lives even now. God has opened great doors for people along these lines.
i think that man was right. I know it goes against the grain of American individualism, & sounds like a pseudo-Eastern spiritualism to the Judeo-Christian ethic, but I believe we are connected to every thing, person, colleague, group member, friend, family member, housemate.
Socks, you said as much.
OK, now take to the One Body.
1 Corinthians 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honored, all the members rejoice with it.
We're connected, and we all affect everyone else. There's no getting away from it. Yet no one but you walks in your shoes.
I read earlier today what was supposed to be the 5 biggest regrets that people have when they die. The one of the 5 that people most regret is that they didn't express and live more openly and honestly what was in their minds and hearts. At the end, it doesn't matter in the least that you spoke and lived according to other people's expectations. So, what the heck can that possibly have to do with unity?
When God comforts me, He does so because He loves ME, individually, no doubt. But the Word says that He comforts us, so that we can comfort others with the comfort wherewith we are comforted of God. How is it that my comfort will comfort another? Because we are related. I don't have to follow a prescribed witnessing/sales technique. All I'm supposed to be doing is bearing witness to what God has & is doing in my life. It is perfect for me to speak thus only because we are all related, & it is exactly what others need to hear at that time. No regrets on my death bed. I've spoken clearly and honestly what is going on in the innermost part of my being. It's as cool as can be. Corinthians is of comfort to us today because we are all related on a larger scale, but it was of more direct significance to the Corinthians because they were more intimately related.
There are major devil spirits that are in charge of individual attack strategies on individual cities. God sends good spirits to engage them in the behalf of good. Paul addresses individual churches in individual cities because they are involved in the same spiritual milieu working around them and among them and in them. They are members in particular engaged in a great relationship enterprise.
Talk about individuality. I don't have to be conformed to this world, "children, tossed to and fro," but speaking the truth in love, as Christ effectually works in me (and you, you) may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ.
That's what it means to reconcile & be at peace. Christ is the glue of the peace. There IS unity. We (individually) just work to keep it between and among us. And so grow up into it.
I believe all this is realized WAY more in the hope - the ONE hope BTW. People will be growing crops then after all. We will be so much more real as individuals in the One Body then.
Hey all, since we're all pilgrims passing through, remember tomorrow where you're going, where you ARE today spiritually. People call it Easter. Other people call it Resurrection Sunday. I read that we are not supposed to be observers of days and of times.
Raised with him and you (this is the day the Lord has made - that's what I'm talking about - rejoice and be glad in it),
Tom
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