socks, you have never scared me in the way or out of the way because i know you're not a user. i believe you try to live the love of christ which i truly appreciate
as i said to you before and you liked this -- well something to this effect -- i am doing the best i can in this life and i'm willing to answer to God in the next
The argument might have some merit.. provided. the victim is given a choice. Given a situation, with the perp, and one has a loaded gun pointed to his or her head.. or the "opportunity" to meet out the same kind of abuse in retribution.. with no legal kind of retaliation. Forgive, or kill.. forgive, or smite. Sorry.. its just a thought.
The claim that one must forgive their attacker to achieve mental well being is ludicrous..
at least to me..
I agree. I had that notion shoveled on me in copious quantities by offshoots. "Forgive the way, VPW, and anyone else that wronged me. Do it for my own good." I haven't forgiven those who wronged me in TWI. Does that mean I am bitter? Nope. Really, I hardly think about them anymore, I've moved on. But I have a sense of an unsettled account between me and them. That's something the Lord will have to judge, since they aren't about to ask for my forgiveness. Should they ask, I would gladly give it. No doubt I could have done things better with them as well. Should I go ask them for forgiveness? It'll never happen. I'm willing to take it to the righteous judge.
I think now that I mostly feel sorry, pity, for the head honchos of TWI. Sorry for them that they have never learned, really, what love is, how to walk kindly before God, how to serve as Jesus did. They have missed so much in life. Their eyes are blinded. They have become so wrapped up in their egos or their organisation that they can't see what's clearly before them. Such small people. Small inside.
Compassion has to come into true forgiveness. Compassion because the offender was weak, failed, abused. Did wrong, knowingly or unknowingly. As do we all.
Only the self-righteous have no need for compassion. No empathy for offenders. And therefore no need to forgive.
On another aspect of this thread: "forgive and forget" doesn't occur as a phrase in the Bible. When God forgives, he casts our sins far away. Jesus in his dying breath sought forgiveness for those killing him ... Romans and Jews.
But many times, in fact, people are charged to remember, especially bad things that have happened. So that they can appreciate what they have now. Passover, and all that encompasses, is a ritual that ensures that forgetting doesn't happen.
Paul, in Philippians, writes that he is forgetting those things which are behind, and" reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."
But he also writes to Timothy: "Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words." A clearer "Don't forget! Remember his evil!" warning you couldn't get. (We don't know whether Alexander was ultimately forgiven by Paul.) If this is the same Alexander of 1 Tim 1, then he was an apostate and a false teacher - "whom I have delivered unto Satan, that [he] may learn not to blaspheme."
It's not "bitter" at all to warn against those that teach wrongly, that hurt others, that mock the grace of God.
Paul, in Philippians, writes that he is forgetting those things which are behind, and" reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."
Yeah.....and Paul gives an accounting of his "tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews, a Pharisee" credentials
outlining how all of this personal gain was but loss for Christ. Clearly, Paul has not forgotten past associations,
but rather dismisses its significance when compared to a far, far greater prize and high calling.
In common vernacular: So yeah.....I took pfal, went WOW twice, sat at the feet of wierwille in corps program, staff
assignments and ordained by wierwille. Another 14 years of corps and clergy meetings, zealous to uphold and conform
to twi's dictates and traditions of men. Yet, my soul and spirit yearned for the excellency of Christ Jesus my Lord.
And, having suffered the loss of perspective and focus, I count twi's mandates as DUNG and press onward.
Yeah.....and Paul gives an accounting of his "tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews, a Pharisee" credentials
outlining how all of this personal gain was but loss for Christ. Clearly, Paul has not forgotten past associations,
but rather dismisses its significance when compared to a far, far greater prize and high calling.
In common vernacular: So yeah.....I took pfal, went WOW twice, sat at the feet of wierwille in corps program, staff
assignments and ordained by wierwille. Another 14 years of corps and clergy meetings, zealous to uphold and conform
to twi's dictates and traditions of men. Yet, my soul and spirit yearned for the excellency of Christ Jesus my Lord.
And, having suffered the loss of perspective and focus, I count twi's mandates as DUNG and press onward.
Is that forgetting the past? <_</>/>
A few weeks ago, we translated that passage from Philippians in Greek class. Your "sense translation" is most excellent, skyrider, only our professor used the word "sh!t"! The word Paul used there was NOT polite!
But I cannot allow the bitterness to follow me to the grave or worse, to Christ's return. My hope is that I live righteously by treating others the same way. Perhaps this is what was meant when it was written, "...in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us."
Eagle
It is always good to "shake dust". Like you, I've reached that point also.
Lots of possible situations where forgiveness is an issue. Different degrees of anger or conflict. Variety of ways to deal with it.
quote:
Compassion has to come into true forgiveness. Compassion because the offender was weak, failed, abused. Did wrong, knowingly or unknowingly. As do we all.
Only the self-righteous have no need for compassion. No empathy for offenders. And therefore no need to forgive.
How telling it is that when Joseph saw his brothers 22 years after they sold him into slavery, he forgave them to the end that he was at peace with himself. His brothers??? Not so much. They were downright paranoid. They were constantly fending off guilt over what they'd done. Even after Jacob died they thought NOW Joseph will get even. Forgiveness CAN make a big difference.
Getting your heart hurt is like physical injury: sometimes it heals without a trace; sometimes it leaves a scar. Lot of good insight on this thread. Many things to try if you're not peaceful and forgiveness is a "suspect". I don't always forgive very well. If nothing else helps I know I can ask God.
Forgiveness....something each person defines and processes and does or does not do based on how they believe and perceive it. In my life, I was eaten up with anger about TWI, about other things and people (family) in my life. And I'm sure it came out in ways I didn't even know how I affected others. I entered into "Recovery"....and there I was taught some freeing, life giving principles that I applied and I received the freedom from my anger and all of my resentments. Forgiveness for me, just didn't happen because someone said to do it. I didn't know how that was possible. I first had to see that my anger and resentment had me in my own prison. The people that I was angry with and resentful didn't have a clue I was carrying all that around with me. And in fact, totally they didn't have me on their mind AT ALL. They continued to live whatever life they were living without a thought of me. That's when I saw that my anger and resentment was hurting me and not them. Kind of like I was saying, well, I'll show you, I'll with hold my forgiveness, I'll hurt you ...I will never forgive you for what you did but they really could of cared less about it. Kind of like me drinking the poison and hoping they would die. When I really thought about that I saw what I was doing to myself, when in fact, I wanted to be doing it to them, but that was not the truth of what was going on. So, I was instructed to pray for those people on my "List" that they would have everything that I wanted to have in my life. Happiness, wholeness, health, recovery of their lives, prosperity, a freedom, good things, forgiveness....and I tell you the truth, I DID NOT want to do that. It was the last thing I wanted to do believe me. But I trusted the instruction of the persons that told me to do it and then I saw it in the bible, pray for your enemies. So I did that even though I didn't want to...and amazingly the anger started decreasing and the resentments started fading away. Even to the point that I just didn't wish them hurt of any kind. After awhile, I realized I was free of what was holding me prisoner, my own thoughts of anger and resentment. I was free to move on with my life. To me, that process was a miracle. Never did I think I would be rid of those feelings and resentments I had toward TWI, toward family members, toward friends. All I know is that it worked for me and then I really could move on cause somewhere in that process I forgave them. I still apply that process with any resentment or anger that I acquire today. I've just describe what I found to work in my life, my own personal experience. I certainly do not know what another person needs to do in their life, I can only speak for me. I'm just sharing it with you.
Resentment = feeling of indignant displeasure or persistent ill will at something regarded as a wrong, insult, or injury
People make such a huge deal out of trying to not resent things or to feel like resentment is wrong when often I think the correct response is to, in fact, resent them.
In further fact I think it's been a mix of different philosophies and religious ideas that have incorporated the interpretation that being resentful and even "bitter" is wrong.
Bitter - here's a fun definition: having a harsh, disagreeably acrid taste, like that of aspirin, quinine, wormwood, or aloes.
When something tastes nasty it just does and I want to know that and remember it if I have the misfortune to taste it once.
Many have been convinced there's some state of saintly spiritual nirvana we should aspire to, never experiencing a sense of something being wrong and nasty or being disagreeable. Or that with enough Tough Love we get big enough "spiritually" for nothing to bother us - yeh, VPW promoted that idea but hardly ever succeeded for more than an hour as he could go apoplectic about anything big or small.
I don't believe to ignore the essence of how we perceive and feel is "Christianity" or even how God sees and thinks about creation as He's brought it into being. It certainly isn't how God is described in the Bible, if that's the source material we use.
I know the standard verses and then some - in regards to bitterness and resentment I think what the bible teaches is more a broad over arching view of how man should think and feel - avoid being "consumed" or occupied with anger to the extent it warps our other thought processes. Knowing there are going to be, should be, things that we don't like, that are nasty bad and wrong that are always going to be that way and that will always need to be handled.
The effects of long term bitter ness and resentment may not be good for the human system but I have come to accept that to deny them will reduce my own analysis and - as the Way called it - how I "ascertain" a truthful understanding of life.
Every preacher worth his or her salt can do a 30 minute sermon on not being bitter or not being resentful - toward God. Rather that man should come to an acceptance and embrace of God's intentions and plans as much as we can understand. Yet we know God fully expects us to function as in a "relationship".
I don't believe however that having done that first we should do anything to exclude our sense of good/bad, right/wrong and like/dislike in favor of some comfy happy place in our minds. We should learn to recognize , use and manage those kinds of feelings and perceptions to better live.
Resentment = feeling of indignant displeasure or persistent ill will at something regarded as a wrong, insult, or injury
People make such a huge deal out of trying to not resent things or to feel like resentment is wrong when often I think the correct response is to, in fact, resent them.
In further fact I think it's been a mix of different philosophies and religious ideas that have incorporated the interpretation that being resentful and even "bitter" is wrong.
Bitter - here's a fun definition: having a harsh, disagreeably acrid taste, like that of aspirin, quinine, wormwood, or aloes.
When something tastes nasty it just does and I want to know that and remember it if I have the misfortune to taste it once.
Many have been convinced there's some state of saintly spiritual nirvana we should aspire to, never experiencing a sense of something being wrong and nasty or being disagreeable. Or that with enough Tough Love we get big enough "spiritually" for nothing to bother us - yeh, VPW promoted that idea but hardly ever succeeded for more than an hour as he could go apoplectic about anything big or small.
I don't believe to ignore the essence of how we perceive and feel is "Christianity" or even how God sees and thinks about creation as He's brought it into being. It certainly isn't how God is described in the Bible, if that's the source material we use.
I know the standard verses and then some - in regards to bitterness and resentment I think what the bible teaches is more a broad over arching view of how man should think and feel - avoid being "consumed" or occupied with anger to the extent it warps our other thought processes. Knowing there are going to be, should be, things that we don't like, that are nasty bad and wrong that are always going to be that way and that will always need to be handled.
The effects of long term bitter ness and resentment may not be good for the human system but I have come to accept that to deny them will reduce my own analysis and - as the Way called it - how I "ascertain" a truthful understanding of life.
Every preacher worth his or her salt can do a 30 minute sermon on not being bitter or not being resentful - toward God. Rather that man should come to an acceptance and embrace of God's intentions and plans as much as we can understand. Yet we know God fully expects us to function as in a "relationship".
I don't believe however that having done that first we should do anything to exclude our sense of good/bad, right/wrong and like/dislike in favor of some comfy happy place in our minds. We should learn to recognize , use and manage those kinds of feelings and perceptions to better live.
I receive emails from Open Doors (Remember Brother Andrew who wanted to take Bibles into communist Russia and prayed, "God You have made blind eyes to see. We ask you to make seeing eyes blind..." so they could smuggle them in, and He did so.) Brother Andrew is still cooking with gas, and his bunch, "Open Doors" is still serving persecuted Christians worldwide. And today I received this in the Open Doors devotional regarding forgivenss, which I thought was most compelling, and hope you will consider the urgency of forgiveness to one's own soul. Persecuted Christians (ones who know their lives, their families, their homes, their jobs, their friends, everything actually is on the line when they confess Jesus is Lord. However, they count the cost and count it but a small thing to pay for their relationship with Jesus.) I hope I will always be able to be found in like manner.
EXAMPLE OF JESUS
On January 23, 1999, 58-year-old Australian Baptist missionary Graham Staines and his two sons were burned to death when the vehicle they were sleeping in was doused with gasoline and set on fire, allegedly by members of a Hindu fundamentalist group, in the Indian state of Orissa. Graham Staines had been working with leprosy patients for thirty-four years.
Hundreds of millions witnessed Gladys Staines, Graham Staines' widow, forgive her family's murderers in the name of the gospel on Indian television—a scene which moved many to tears "and may have achieved more for the gospel in India than many years of missionary work," according to an Indian evangelist.
Describing her prompt forgiveness of the killers as a "spontaneous act," Gladys Staines says, "it took away the bitterness" that otherwise would have remained in her heart. Since the incident she has people coming to her door asking how they can become Christians.
The imagery she used was also powerful. "Let us burn hatred…and spread the flame of Christ's love."
Forgiveness is to be given even when it is not asked for. On the cross, forgiveness was one of the first words of Jesus. The soldiers doing the crucifying had not asked for forgiveness but Jesus realized their need of it.
Forgiveness can only be truly accomplished in the power of the Holy Spirit. But when given, it communicates most powerfully the love of God. And we are called to be like God, to bear God's family resemblance.
Forgiveness is a personal transaction that releases the one offended from the offense. The forgiveness required by the scriptures is more than detached or limited forgiveness, it is full and complete forgiveness in which there is a total cessation of negative feelings toward the offender and the relationship being restored has the possibility to grow.
Another example of forgiveness applied from Open Doors
REAL LIFE FORGIVENESS
Alexander Puerta has seen more than his share of tragedy. Raised on a small farm in Urabá region of northern Colombia, he was 17 when his father was murdered by an angry neighbor.
At 19, Alex nearly died of malaria. He called on a Christian evangelist to pray for him and experienced a miraculous recovery. That convinced him to accept Christ. He soon became a fervent evangelist himself and took a job at the Rancho Amelia banana plantation in Urabá.
A guerrilla army operating in the area mistakenly believed Rancho Amelia harbored a paramilitary squad. One morning in September 1995, they ambushed a bus carrying plantation employees, tied them up and threw them face down into a gully. The guerrillas then opened fire with machine guns on the helpless workers.
In the midst of the shooting, a bullet struck Alex Puerta at the base of his left eye, fractured his skull from the inside and exited, destroying his right eye and cheekbone. Amazingly, Alex did not lose consciousness, despite the excruciating pain and nearly suffocating in his own blood.
"The guerrillas came down the rows to find those who were still moving, finishing them off with a machete blow to the neck," he recalls. "They reached me and I told them that Christ loved them. 'This one's alive!' they said, and hit me twice very hard. They broke two teeth and cut off an ear lobe, but the machete did not penetrate my neck. Then they left.
"At that moment I heard a voice say, 'Fight for your life.' I felt such a strength and vitality that I succeeded in breaking my bonds. It hurt, but God gave me strength. When help arrived, they found me sitting up." Alex was the only victim to survive the massacre. Twenty-five of his Rancho Amelia co-workers, including several women, lay dead in the gully.
Survival has been difficult. Alex underwent five surgeries to rebuild his shattered face. Doctors told him that he would never see again. He remembers the long months of convalescence with nothing to do but sit at home with only the family dog.
Today Alex serves as a voluntary chaplain of Prison Fellowship, preaching in chapel services at the Bellavista National Penitentiary and counseling inmates. Some of the prisoners with whom he has shared the gospel are former guerrillas. At least one, he has learned, was involved in the massacre at Rancho Amelia.
Alex let it be known that he has forgiven each of the assailants who blinded him and killed his friends. "If one decides to follow Jesus, the foundation is forgiveness," he says. "Without it, there is no real Christian life."
Alex accepted an invitation from Open Doors to become a regular trainer for Standing Strong Through the Storm seminars offered throughout Colombia. Feedback from seminar participants indicates that Alex is particularly effective in teaching about forgiveness.
Forgiveness is an evergreen topic. Here is my take on The Way's 'version'. I've noticed that some of the more aggressive and obnoxious people I've encountered want others to forgive them. They want to be let off the hook and will many times invoke the concept of forgiveness to strong arm others into doing it. Its self serving. People should forgive only when it feels right and they have had the time to put things into perspective. In absence of that one might offer forgiveness without a full understanding of what they are forgiving. Look at it this way. God could have forgiven Adam and Eve on the spot and hit the reset button though he did not. It took time for the prophecies to be fulfilled and the concept of the new birth to manifest. There was a passage of time before we could "relink" or reconcile to God as before.
I feel the same concept applies in our daily lives. I'm naturally inclined to forgive though I want the person(s) I'm forgiving to understand their role in the situation just as God did with humanity. For me if someone is insistent or being pushy about it then its a sign of a guilty conscience on their part. They want it all to be over so they can move on. But if you offer it to quickly you might be cheating yourself. Take your time, search your heart, and offer the forgiveness at the appropriate moment - NOT because someone is demanding it. And, if I'm the one who needs the forgiving then I want to indicate to the person I've harmed to realize that I'm owning my part. That I'm not attempting to minimize the offense. Once we have an understanding that's when forgiveness can work its near magical transformation and restoration.
Brother Andrew is still alive and cooking. You can contact him through Open Doors.
Forgiveness is at the heart of all Christianity I think. Our relationship with the Lord -- We have been forgiven. And I would hate to be found as that servant in the story of the servant who was forgiven of so much,and then would not forgive someone who owed him a much smaller amount.
I was thinking about Cain and Abel, and maybe that was the difference in why Cain's offering was not accepted: Abel's offering included the life/sacrifice of his sheep, which carries repentence, while Cain's offering was just a few more tomatoes. (I will try this out over in the Doctrinal forum)
another word of Forgiveness from Brother Andrew's Open Doors
FORGIVE YOUR ENEMIES
Hatred of her enemies is something Takoosh Hovsepian, the wife of an Iranian pastor murdered in 1994, no longer has. She says, "I've learned a lesson at God's University about how to love your enemies."
As a teenager, Takoosh prayed that she might be allowed to marry a pastor, so that she could spend her life in the service of God. Her wish was fulfilled, but the way would not be easy.
Her husband, Pastor Haik Hovsepian, was forty-eight years old when one day he did not come home. After twelve days, it became apparent that he had been killed at the behest of the Iranian government. About that time, four other Iranian pastors were also murdered in a cowardly way. They refused to sign an official declaration that they would not evangelize among Muslims.
In Iran, ninety-eight percent of the population is Muslim. After the Islamic Revolution of 1979 in particular, the problems for Christians became increasingly great.
Takoosh says, "During the revolution, hundreds of people threatened to set fire to the churches, which fortunately did not happen. The Islamic government does not want Muslims to go to church and evangelism among them is forbidden."
Pastor Hovsepian held important positions in the Iranian church. On various occasions, he stated that he was willing to go to the utmost for his faith and for the church. His wife reflects, "Haik repeatedly said, 'We don't have to be afraid. We must trust in God.' But in my heart, I was afraid. Haik was full of love for people, even for his Muslim neighbors. They were welcome at the church; they knew that he would help them even in times of difficulty."
The day that Haik left to collect a friend from the airport and never came back is deeply engraved in the memory of the widow and her children. At the police station, the eldest son, Joseph, was only shown a photo of his father. According to the police, the body of Pastor Hovsepian had been found in an alleyway in Teheran.
Takoosh says, "I only had hatred in my heart, hatred for my enemies who had murdered Haik. I was not able to forgive them. I prayed with my lips, 'God, give me the strength to forgive,' but before I prayed, in my imagination I saw myself throwing mud at them. But one day a miracle happened. God taught me how I could forgive my enemies. I was asking for something which on the deepest level I did not want to ask for. But gradually, in a process of ups and downs which took months, God gave me the strength to pray more and more with my heart for those who had murdered my husband. God answered this prayer."
"Then I was no longer praying only with my lips, but from the depths of my heart. I had learned not only to trust in God and to lean on Him, but also how I can forgive my enemies."
This may be the most articulate quote regarding a man's responsibility before God I know (This is a quote I am working on memorizing and implanting in my heart.)
When a man sees that his neighbour hates him, then he must love him more than he did before to fill up the gap.
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geisha779
When this topic pops up here it usually leaves me scratching my head in wonder and a little confused.....if it is a biblical perspective people are after they should consider the biblical responses in
Eagle
Sometimes I wonder about the days we are in, whether this is in fact the End Times. I do believe this is true. My most important personal goal now, to me anyway, is to learn to forgive anyone who was
smarter
Something that I read that is pertinent....."Forgiveness doesn't excuse their behavior. Forgiveness prevents their behavior from destroying your heart.":
excathedra
i did not understand the part about young men and homo spirits ???????
i have to read some posts still
thank you
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excathedra
jesus christ saves to the uttermost. i cannot tell you what anyone's uttermost is except my own :)
i don't know, yes i have christ in me, but i'm not sure i'm doing the uttermost best like he would, you know?
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excathedra
socks, you have never scared me in the way or out of the way because i know you're not a user. i believe you try to live the love of christ which i truly appreciate
as i said to you before and you liked this -- well something to this effect -- i am doing the best i can in this life and i'm willing to answer to God in the next
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Ham
The claim that one must forgive their attacker to achieve mental well being is ludicrous..
at least to me..
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Ham
The argument might have some merit.. provided. the victim is given a choice. Given a situation, with the perp, and one has a loaded gun pointed to his or her head.. or the "opportunity" to meet out the same kind of abuse in retribution.. with no legal kind of retaliation. Forgive, or kill.. forgive, or smite. Sorry.. its just a thought.
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OldSkool
I agree. I had that notion shoveled on me in copious quantities by offshoots. "Forgive the way, VPW, and anyone else that wronged me. Do it for my own good." I haven't forgiven those who wronged me in TWI. Does that mean I am bitter? Nope. Really, I hardly think about them anymore, I've moved on. But I have a sense of an unsettled account between me and them. That's something the Lord will have to judge, since they aren't about to ask for my forgiveness. Should they ask, I would gladly give it. No doubt I could have done things better with them as well. Should I go ask them for forgiveness? It'll never happen. I'm willing to take it to the righteous judge.
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Twinky
I think now that I mostly feel sorry, pity, for the head honchos of TWI. Sorry for them that they have never learned, really, what love is, how to walk kindly before God, how to serve as Jesus did. They have missed so much in life. Their eyes are blinded. They have become so wrapped up in their egos or their organisation that they can't see what's clearly before them. Such small people. Small inside.
Compassion has to come into true forgiveness. Compassion because the offender was weak, failed, abused. Did wrong, knowingly or unknowingly. As do we all.
Only the self-righteous have no need for compassion. No empathy for offenders. And therefore no need to forgive.
On another aspect of this thread: "forgive and forget" doesn't occur as a phrase in the Bible. When God forgives, he casts our sins far away. Jesus in his dying breath sought forgiveness for those killing him ... Romans and Jews.
But many times, in fact, people are charged to remember, especially bad things that have happened. So that they can appreciate what they have now. Passover, and all that encompasses, is a ritual that ensures that forgetting doesn't happen.
Paul, in Philippians, writes that he is forgetting those things which are behind, and" reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."
But he also writes to Timothy: "Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words." A clearer "Don't forget! Remember his evil!" warning you couldn't get. (We don't know whether Alexander was ultimately forgiven by Paul.) If this is the same Alexander of 1 Tim 1, then he was an apostate and a false teacher - "whom I have delivered unto Satan, that [he] may learn not to blaspheme."
It's not "bitter" at all to warn against those that teach wrongly, that hurt others, that mock the grace of God.
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skyrider
Yeah.....and Paul gives an accounting of his "tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews, a Pharisee" credentials
outlining how all of this personal gain was but loss for Christ. Clearly, Paul has not forgotten past associations,
but rather dismisses its significance when compared to a far, far greater prize and high calling.
In common vernacular: So yeah.....I took pfal, went WOW twice, sat at the feet of wierwille in corps program, staff
assignments and ordained by wierwille. Another 14 years of corps and clergy meetings, zealous to uphold and conform
to twi's dictates and traditions of men. Yet, my soul and spirit yearned for the excellency of Christ Jesus my Lord.
And, having suffered the loss of perspective and focus, I count twi's mandates as DUNG and press onward.
Is that forgetting the past? <_<
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excathedra
no that's fine. you might have p h ucked up in the past like did :)
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Steve Lortz
A few weeks ago, we translated that passage from Philippians in Greek class. Your "sense translation" is most excellent, skyrider, only our professor used the word "sh!t"! The word Paul used there was NOT polite!
Love,
Steve
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dmiller
It is always good to "shake dust". Like you, I've reached that point also.
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johniam
Lots of possible situations where forgiveness is an issue. Different degrees of anger or conflict. Variety of ways to deal with it.
quote:
Compassion has to come into true forgiveness. Compassion because the offender was weak, failed, abused. Did wrong, knowingly or unknowingly. As do we all.
Only the self-righteous have no need for compassion. No empathy for offenders. And therefore no need to forgive.
How telling it is that when Joseph saw his brothers 22 years after they sold him into slavery, he forgave them to the end that he was at peace with himself. His brothers??? Not so much. They were downright paranoid. They were constantly fending off guilt over what they'd done. Even after Jacob died they thought NOW Joseph will get even. Forgiveness CAN make a big difference.
Getting your heart hurt is like physical injury: sometimes it heals without a trace; sometimes it leaves a scar. Lot of good insight on this thread. Many things to try if you're not peaceful and forgiveness is a "suspect". I don't always forgive very well. If nothing else helps I know I can ask God.
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newlife
Forgiveness....something each person defines and processes and does or does not do based on how they believe and perceive it. In my life, I was eaten up with anger about TWI, about other things and people (family) in my life. And I'm sure it came out in ways I didn't even know how I affected others. I entered into "Recovery"....and there I was taught some freeing, life giving principles that I applied and I received the freedom from my anger and all of my resentments. Forgiveness for me, just didn't happen because someone said to do it. I didn't know how that was possible. I first had to see that my anger and resentment had me in my own prison. The people that I was angry with and resentful didn't have a clue I was carrying all that around with me. And in fact, totally they didn't have me on their mind AT ALL. They continued to live whatever life they were living without a thought of me. That's when I saw that my anger and resentment was hurting me and not them. Kind of like I was saying, well, I'll show you, I'll with hold my forgiveness, I'll hurt you ...I will never forgive you for what you did but they really could of cared less about it. Kind of like me drinking the poison and hoping they would die. When I really thought about that I saw what I was doing to myself, when in fact, I wanted to be doing it to them, but that was not the truth of what was going on. So, I was instructed to pray for those people on my "List" that they would have everything that I wanted to have in my life. Happiness, wholeness, health, recovery of their lives, prosperity, a freedom, good things, forgiveness....and I tell you the truth, I DID NOT want to do that. It was the last thing I wanted to do believe me. But I trusted the instruction of the persons that told me to do it and then I saw it in the bible, pray for your enemies. So I did that even though I didn't want to...and amazingly the anger started decreasing and the resentments started fading away. Even to the point that I just didn't wish them hurt of any kind. After awhile, I realized I was free of what was holding me prisoner, my own thoughts of anger and resentment. I was free to move on with my life. To me, that process was a miracle. Never did I think I would be rid of those feelings and resentments I had toward TWI, toward family members, toward friends. All I know is that it worked for me and then I really could move on cause somewhere in that process I forgave them. I still apply that process with any resentment or anger that I acquire today. I've just describe what I found to work in my life, my own personal experience. I certainly do not know what another person needs to do in their life, I can only speak for me. I'm just sharing it with you.
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socks
Resentment = feeling of indignant displeasure or persistent ill will at something regarded as a wrong, insult, or injury
People make such a huge deal out of trying to not resent things or to feel like resentment is wrong when often I think the correct response is to, in fact, resent them.
In further fact I think it's been a mix of different philosophies and religious ideas that have incorporated the interpretation that being resentful and even "bitter" is wrong.
Bitter - here's a fun definition: having a harsh, disagreeably acrid taste, like that of aspirin, quinine, wormwood, or aloes.
When something tastes nasty it just does and I want to know that and remember it if I have the misfortune to taste it once.
Many have been convinced there's some state of saintly spiritual nirvana we should aspire to, never experiencing a sense of something being wrong and nasty or being disagreeable. Or that with enough Tough Love we get big enough "spiritually" for nothing to bother us - yeh, VPW promoted that idea but hardly ever succeeded for more than an hour as he could go apoplectic about anything big or small.
I don't believe to ignore the essence of how we perceive and feel is "Christianity" or even how God sees and thinks about creation as He's brought it into being. It certainly isn't how God is described in the Bible, if that's the source material we use.
I know the standard verses and then some - in regards to bitterness and resentment I think what the bible teaches is more a broad over arching view of how man should think and feel - avoid being "consumed" or occupied with anger to the extent it warps our other thought processes. Knowing there are going to be, should be, things that we don't like, that are nasty bad and wrong that are always going to be that way and that will always need to be handled.
The effects of long term bitter ness and resentment may not be good for the human system but I have come to accept that to deny them will reduce my own analysis and - as the Way called it - how I "ascertain" a truthful understanding of life.
Every preacher worth his or her salt can do a 30 minute sermon on not being bitter or not being resentful - toward God. Rather that man should come to an acceptance and embrace of God's intentions and plans as much as we can understand. Yet we know God fully expects us to function as in a "relationship".
I don't believe however that having done that first we should do anything to exclude our sense of good/bad, right/wrong and like/dislike in favor of some comfy happy place in our minds. We should learn to recognize , use and manage those kinds of feelings and perceptions to better live.
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socks
Q: That guy kicked you in the nads...pretty hard too! That must have hurt!"
A: Yep.
Q: So can you ever forgive him for that? Here - want a chair?"
A: Yes, thanks. And yes, I already did.
Q: Great - but you clocked him back pretty hard. He hasn't woken up yet.
A: I see that. I knew he'd want to make amends for what he did so I went ahead and handled it with him.
Q: So - do you still feel bitter about that?
A: A little yes.
Q: Think you'll get over it?
A: Dunno - check back with me in a month and I'll let you know how my nads feel.
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excathedra
i don't think it is for another human to scrutinize / judge
otherwise, we are all would be fruck'd
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geisha779
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Kit Sober
I receive emails from Open Doors (Remember Brother Andrew who wanted to take Bibles into communist Russia and prayed, "God You have made blind eyes to see. We ask you to make seeing eyes blind..." so they could smuggle them in, and He did so.) Brother Andrew is still cooking with gas, and his bunch, "Open Doors" is still serving persecuted Christians worldwide. And today I received this in the Open Doors devotional regarding forgivenss, which I thought was most compelling, and hope you will consider the urgency of forgiveness to one's own soul. Persecuted Christians (ones who know their lives, their families, their homes, their jobs, their friends, everything actually is on the line when they confess Jesus is Lord. However, they count the cost and count it but a small thing to pay for their relationship with Jesus.) I hope I will always be able to be found in like manner.
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Kit Sober
Another example of forgiveness applied from Open Doors
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Ham
Is Brother Andrew accessible? In other words, open to dialogue.. just curious.
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diazbro
Forgiveness is an evergreen topic. Here is my take on The Way's 'version'. I've noticed that some of the more aggressive and obnoxious people I've encountered want others to forgive them. They want to be let off the hook and will many times invoke the concept of forgiveness to strong arm others into doing it. Its self serving. People should forgive only when it feels right and they have had the time to put things into perspective. In absence of that one might offer forgiveness without a full understanding of what they are forgiving. Look at it this way. God could have forgiven Adam and Eve on the spot and hit the reset button though he did not. It took time for the prophecies to be fulfilled and the concept of the new birth to manifest. There was a passage of time before we could "relink" or reconcile to God as before.
I feel the same concept applies in our daily lives. I'm naturally inclined to forgive though I want the person(s) I'm forgiving to understand their role in the situation just as God did with humanity. For me if someone is insistent or being pushy about it then its a sign of a guilty conscience on their part. They want it all to be over so they can move on. But if you offer it to quickly you might be cheating yourself. Take your time, search your heart, and offer the forgiveness at the appropriate moment - NOT because someone is demanding it. And, if I'm the one who needs the forgiving then I want to indicate to the person I've harmed to realize that I'm owning my part. That I'm not attempting to minimize the offense. Once we have an understanding that's when forgiveness can work its near magical transformation and restoration.
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Kit Sober
Brother Andrew is still alive and cooking. You can contact him through Open Doors.
Forgiveness is at the heart of all Christianity I think. Our relationship with the Lord -- We have been forgiven. And I would hate to be found as that servant in the story of the servant who was forgiven of so much,and then would not forgive someone who owed him a much smaller amount.
I was thinking about Cain and Abel, and maybe that was the difference in why Cain's offering was not accepted: Abel's offering included the life/sacrifice of his sheep, which carries repentence, while Cain's offering was just a few more tomatoes. (I will try this out over in the Doctrinal forum)
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Kit Sober
another word of Forgiveness from Brother Andrew's Open Doors
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Kit Sober
This may be the most articulate quote regarding a man's responsibility before God I know (This is a quote I am working on memorizing and implanting in my heart.)
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